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JVM bytecode is obviously not what I was talking about - it is neither low-level (if you can't efficiently compile the entirety of C into it, it's not good enough for this purpose), nor did it ever have universal first-class OS support.

And stuff like https://github.com/jart/cosmopolitan/issues/1263 shows that just because it works today, it doesn't mean that it'll work tomorrow. What's the guarantee that the same won't happen on Linux or macOS eventually?

Don't get me wrong, APE is a hell of a hack, and I love it for that. But it can't be a truly stable platform without guarantees from the underlying OSes to keep all of that machinery working the same way. And if we could actually get them to agree on something like that, why not get them to agree on an actual portable executable format that is future-proof also wrt new CPU architectures?

(Note, by the way, that this is orthogonal to the whole notion of fat binaries that contain arch-specific code. That is still a useful optimization to have in practice even if one has portable bytecode, alongside said portable bytecode.)




I agree. As a user you should have those guarantees. Here's how I'm helping you get them.

- With Windows, APE is just PE and WIN32 so those are already guaranteed by Microsoft.

- With Linux, I've been working with kernel maintainers to build consensus around around a patch https://justine.lol/ape.patch that will let your APE binaries be loaded by binfmt_elf. This will provide you with a guarantee that they'll still work, even if someone has for instance registered a binfmt_misc entry like WINE that's intercepting MZ executables.

- With FreeBSD, I'm also working to build consensus here around another patch, that will help the kernel load APE natively as a normal ELF executable. That means you won't need to rely on the system shell to load your program into memory.

- I've been writing a specification for APE that documents this file format, its ABI, and its historical encodings. https://github.com/jart/cosmopolitan/blob/master/ape/specifi...

One day in the future, when we have the support of major OSes for the native loading of portable binaries, we'll look back at the APE shell script bootstrapping process similar to how we look back at self-extracting zip archives. When Phil Katz first invented PKZIP, it was useful to prepend the software to each archive. But nowadays it isn't necessary, since all OSes come with support for PKZIP built in.


I rather suspect that Apple will not play along.

That said, a fat binary format that works for both Windows and Linux is already very useful.


If we earn the support of Linux and FreeBSD then we might stand of chance. Apple might ask for a better way to secure ape executables, which could be potentially exciting, since it'd be nice to have a vendor neutral solution to code signing.




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