I can’t fault gorhill for not wanting to play the “give large rich organization infinite second chances” game. Sometimes enough is enough even if you think you’d act differently in his shoes.
> Mozilla apologized
No they didn’t. Now I’m not here to play apology police or anything. But that’s just a perfunctory customer service voice statement which happened to include the word “apologize”. And that’s fine. Nobody expects more. We can acknowledge it for what it is tho.
"Our review processes are not fit for purpose. We commit to replacing them with ones which acknowledge our entire ecosystem is built on the goodwill of unpaid volunteers, and we must not squander their time or resources. People like you are our lifeblood and we must not lose your trust."
"We admit we used automated scanning here and tried to pass it off as human review. We got caught. Badly. All our future scans will have to pass our own internal reviews before we make demands of extension authors."
Come on, be realistic. They’re not going to grovel and humiliate themselves over it, especially on a first apology contact. Expecting that kind of response would be ridiculous.
The anodyne ass-covering apology they did send out, is massively more humiliating for Mozilla than a sincere mea-culpa would have been.
Hill made their initial emails public and the discussion of AMO's incompetence had already happened. Mozilla have been able to see this and formulate a response. Their response was not a full PR face-saving, it was a single further email from the AMO review system. That speaks volumes.
Dear Mr Hill
sorry we are such idiots. Now please reply to us so you comply with the mandatory review process governed by idiots. Our policies require that we do not unilaterally fix any mistakes we unilaterally made. We must first waste more of your time to acertain that you agree our direction is the right one.
Look, I’m not taking Mozilla’s side. As should be obvious by my other comments on this thread, I think Raymond Hill should do what they think is right for themselves and the project.
But I’m trying to have a productive conversation on what would be a realistic response that Mozilla could have plausibly sent that would show true remorse and constitute a proper apology.
Insulting them and giving absurd examples that would never happen does not advance the discussion. I’m not interested in unabashed mocking. There are people on the other side too, it doesn’t cost anything to have a little empathy. Yes, Mozilla is in the wrong here, no one disagrees. How about we discuss what they could’ve done right?
That's what my mooted better-apology email covered. Acknowledge the failings of their processes. Mozilla should stop thinking they're a big swinging dick of a "platform" like Google and Apple are, instead accept they're reliant on continuing donations of time and effort by volunteers and it needs to keep them sweet.
Edit: and if they want to continue thinking they're a "platform", they need to invest in more and better staff for doing these reviews they insist on. They need to accept that false positives are just as bad, if not worse, than false negatives.
> That's what my mooted better-apology email covered. Acknowledge the failings of their processes.
But you did it in a way that ridicules Mozilla. It was an unrealistic example of something they would never have sent. For what? There’s no point to that. Surely you can come up with something that is apologetic, honest, real, and that a manager at a company could approve. I was looking for something sensical, not a caricature.
> Mozilla should stop thinking (…)
That, and most of your post, gets to the heart of it. You’re displeased with Mozilla and want them to look bad. Look, I get it, I don’t like Mozilla’s direction either, I am plenty critical of them. But you can be critical and constructive. Your comments that made them look like absolute bozos are the kind of rhetoric any Mozilla employee would skip over as not being serious. I would like Mozilla to be better, not just burn them to the ground.
The problem with Mozilla may be unrecoverable; that's my concern. They're currently spending Daddy Google's money like it's endless, schmoozing with SV investor types, pissing about chasing the latest trends and bunging money to their friends. Because they can.
I'm not sure that anything that anyone could say to them could change their minds.
My worry is that there are no organisations that campaign to keep the web open, fight against those who would lock it up and Balkanise it, and to offer a web browser that empowers its users and hasn't been captured by surveillance-capitalist money.
> But I’m trying to have a productive conversation on what would be a realistic response that Mozilla could have plausibly sent that would show true remorse and constitute a proper apology.
For a though experiment lets take those suggestions earlier in the thread that you already dismissed. Make them 10% less blunt. Have they become realistic? No? OK, another 10% less blunt. Keep going until it seems realistic. Does it still show true remorse? No? Quelle surprise! I don't think there is any overlap to be found in this Venn Diagram.
The closest thing we might ever see is the mozilla dev elsewhere in this thread. They're opining that mozilla should probably just give Hill reviewer creds so he can rubber stamp his own addons and explaining why.
I'm not saying that if Mozilla were to give him those permissions that it would constitute an apology. I'm saying that the case this Mozilla dev is making, that alone is already more remorse from Mozilla about how broken their internal process and priorities are, more than any "realistic" official communication from Mozilla will show.
> Have they become realistic? No? OK, another 10% less blunt. Keep going until it seems realistic. Does it still show true remorse? No? Quelle surprise!
What a bizarre straw man. You invent an argument unrelated to what the other person said, then argue with yourself pretending to know what the other person would respond ultimately making the imaginary opponent agree with you. That’s quite something.
Your post is so far removed from the point of the thread I have no idea how to respond to it. Nor would I want to, I believe this has gone so far off the rails there’s no salvaging it.
Again, I’m not defending Mozilla. Anyone who cared to find my other comments on the thread can easily verify I defended Raymond Hill from the start. The one thing I was interested in with the original question were serious arguments of what Mozilla could have done better. Straw man arguments lacking in empathy that makes everyone on the other side look like clowns are unproductive.
That reply essentially sounds like "We realize you are in a position of power over us and so we should have been more careful; we thereby explicitly note the power imbalance and pledge to respect you--specifically, just you--a bit more because of it (though let's not get into the details of how)."... which is, I guess, an "apology" of sorts, but it isn't even close to an apology for the thing they actually did wrong.
FWIW, the comment you were replying to had a bit of hyperbole in it, and I guess you seem to be expecting it to be an exact quote? I think that same sentiment can be done in a way that is more neutral in tone, which is what seems to be irking you? Which is awkward, I guess, as, frankly, the one you prefer comes off much more to me as "groveling": the issue at hand is procedural and technical and maybe a bit political, but that reply is intensely personal and is directly "bending the knee" to Gorhill while not admitting any actual mistake.
But like, maybe, sometimes, an apology inherently requires some humility, and if Mozilla isn't willing to actually state that they did wrong -- not that Gorhill deserves respect, not that this situation went badly, certainly not merely that Gorhill felt bad about it -- then what, pray tell, even is an apology?
> but it isn't even close to an apology for the thing they actually did wrong.
I didn’t say the one I linked was perfect, I said it was more plausible. I don’t understand why everyone seems to have such a hard time understanding what that word means.
> and I guess you seem to be expecting it to be an exact quote?
That is exactly what I asked for. I asked what the email could have said. Words have meanings. Why oh why does that seem to be a novel concept?
> But like, maybe, sometimes, an apology inherently requires some humility
Yes, yes it does. I agree.
> then what, pray tell, even is an apology?
For crying out loud. HN, the community that is ridiculed everywhere else for being too literal, was today incapable of understanding a literal question.
"Statistically your extensions are one of the most used on Firefox. We will handle all related matters with higher priority and care in the future, and are deeply sorry about this."
Why does it matter if they apologize? Are there brownie points that make a rote ineffectual interaction somehow better if that check box can be checked?
> What could the email have said
If the goal is finding the right magic incantation for apology, then answer to your question is “nothing”. If it’s not, then the answer is “almost anything”.
An apology is an admission of wrongdoing and shows remorse for one’s actions. It means the perpetrator is committing to improving themselves and not make the same mistake. You can’t change a mistake in the past, but you can promise to do better in the feature.
So yes, apologies matters. It is baffling, and honestly worrying, that this has to be explained.
It is important to realise the people steering the apology are not the same ones that caused the offence. The organisation is the same, but you can’t control what every single individual does.
> It is baffling, and honestly worrying, that this has to be explained.
Hey man, you’re the one that seems to be of the impression that the person sending form letter extension review responses is in a position in Mozilla to be able to do any of the shit you just said apologizes represent.
I asked what’s it matter if they tick the apology box because they can’t actually apologize.
I just don’t get why, in my previous post, I was supposed to pretend like the person who wrote that “we apologize” statement even intended to apologize.
—-
And in the odd chance the person who sent that email is in that position (or it’s a personal apology limited to their own reviewing failures) they need to use their words and distinguish themselves from a prefunctory customer service script. Rote apologies are not apologies, they’re simply someone saying what they believe are the right polite words for a situation.
> the impression that the person sending form letter extension review responses is in a position in Mozilla to be able to do any of the shit you just said apologizes represent.
Yeah, that’s fair.
> Rote apologies are not apologies, they’re simply someone saying what they believe are the right polite words for a situation.
I agree. And rereading the email I also agree that their apology was lacklustre to say the least. Initially that seemed to be to have come from a position of authority, but I see I was wrong.
My only disagreement is that I do think there is some apology that would be valid. Something like a personalised email (not from a form) from someone with a modicum of power (e.g. the manager of the add-ons division).
Note, however, I’m not saying a valid apology must be accepted.
> Something like a personalised email (not from a form) from someone with a modicum of power (e.g. the manager of the add-ons division).
Okay… but I still get the feeling you’re talking about a non-apology here. No matter how hard they work to craft the right words, unless that manager does something differently they’re just being manipulative in addition to the original wrong they’re pretending to apologize for.
I know I’m not being maximally charitable here, but look how far you’ve strayed from “If the literal string ‘we apologize’ isn’t it, what is?”
> but look how far you’ve strayed from “If the literal string ‘we apologize’ isn’t it, what is?”
Wasn’t it clear that I changed my mind through the conversation? That’s the point for me, my goal isn’t to pick a position and claim I’m right to the end, but to learn and improve my views. Like I said:
> I agree. And rereading the email I also agree that their apology was lacklustre to say the least. Initially that seemed to be to have come from a position of authority, but I see I was wrong.
If the literal strings “I agree” and “I was wrong” don’t convey that I agree with your points and I think I was wrong, what does?
To be absolutely clear, I’m being tongue-in-cheek. I have no desire to continue this.
And to be even clearer, what I offered as a suggestion was a response to you saying there was “nothing” they could do. That’s the one part I disagree with by the end.
> Mozilla apologized
No they didn’t. Now I’m not here to play apology police or anything. But that’s just a perfunctory customer service voice statement which happened to include the word “apologize”. And that’s fine. Nobody expects more. We can acknowledge it for what it is tho.