Hacker News new | past | comments | ask | show | jobs | submit login

>Engineers have a low opinion of advertising—and of people whose job it is to create advertising

Yep. I have a low opinion of anyone who tries to manipulate others using deceit and trickery. Marketers just happen to have made a career out of it.

The irony here is that this 'article' is just an ad for this guy's consulting services.




Anyone who tries to manipulate anyone in any matter is a fool.

Sales is necessary to every organisation however. There is no "built it and they will come".

Marketing in my mind should be about providing easy access to the right information so that human beings can make informed decisions. Sometimes you have to "push" that information or your message to the people you want to reach. Not everyone will magically find your wisdom.


So in what category were those commercials for smoking? Clearly these campaigns were based on disinformation, manipulation, and they were highly successful.


> So in what category were those commercials for smoking?

Awareness, (increasing) interest and desire:

* https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Purchase_funnel

Smoking dates back millennia:

* https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/History_of_smoking

It is was just more productized in the (mid-)1900s, just like everything else was.


If you were aware, you would never smoke. Same for interest. Why would you be interested in a black lung. Furthermore, desire. Not sure what a cowboy riding on a horse has to do with smoking.

So, none of those commercials teach you what smoking is actually about. It is about getting you addicted so you become an ATM for big tabacco.


> If you were aware, you would never smoke.

Not in the 1950s, 60s, and 70s.

The Marlboro Man first appeared in 1954:

* https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Marlboro_Man


Not sure what your comment is supposed to mean.

If you mean that in 1954 nobody knew about the effects of smoking, you are wrong. The cigarette industry was well aware of it:

https://tobaccocontrol.bmj.com/content/21/2/87


It seems that your argument is, that some marketing is somewhat malicious - and I agree.

But to say that all marketing is ill-intended and manipulative seems way to extreme.

"Providing good documentation" could be considered a marketing move, if that was what would set a product apart, and make it interesting to buyers.

Making bad ad-copy and intrusive advertising in general is not something I find very interesting personally. That doesn't mean, that it doesn't work, or isn't morally wrong (you mention smoking).

Selling and promoting your product is necessary for most companies. And it can be done in a tasteful, informative and non-intrusive manner.


I just responded to your

> Anyone who tries to manipulate anyone in any matter is a fool.

and provided a counter example. Of course, commercials don't have to be malicious, and can be informative and a net positive. But commercials rarely are honest sources of information.


I've managed tens of millions of dollars running direct respond ads and would never lie or mislead in ad copy. I've also never seen a lie in ads run by people I know.


Ever thought about starting your own company?

I'm a software engineer of 24 years. Maybe there's some synergy here.

Feel free to reach out to me on LinkedIn (in my profile).


Just pinged you!


Perfect. I set up a time for next week. Looking forward to it!


Aww, nerd courtship.


So in all of those tens of millions of dollars you never once advertised a product or service that had any flaws? Seems pretty unlikely.


Every conceivable thing on earth has some flaw or trade off. Good advertising communicates information about the product while illustrating the next best alternative's trade offs.

I dislike being sold to, but I enjoy getting info for products that are relevant to me.


So, capitalism is built on the idea of mutually beneficial trades. It's supposed to be a cooperative game, and in cooperative games you should always provide as much information to your counterpart as possible. Capitalism breaks down when too much guard labor is necessary: if I don't know what flaws you are keeping hidden, then I have to spend extra effort on every transaction, and will buy fewer things that I want.

What I see lots of advertisers doing is treating it as a competitive game. They're slightly right, as they are competing against the other advertisers for the same customers. However, if all advertisers could just agree to be brutally honest, everyone would be better off. That's the purpose of governmental regulation, and governments routinely strike companies for deceptive advertising.

To be blunt, any advertising that does not make a good-faith effort to give me all the relevant information--the good and the bad--is deceptive. Perhaps you won't get in legal trouble (though you should), and perhaps it's socially acceptable because "everyone else does it" (not everyone, just the vast majority), but that does not make it right. It just means society still has progress to make.


I've never claimed any of the businesses we promote are perfect!


> The irony here is that this 'article' is just an ad for this guy's consulting services.

Why is this bad? What is the preferable way one should advertise their services, if they choose to be an independent consultant? Should they sit quietly in a dark room and wait for people to find them, like some sort of monk in a cave?


> The irony here is that this 'article' is just an ad for this guy's consulting services.

Is that more ironic than you commenting on what is ultimately just an ad for a VC accelerator?


Well there is marketing and then there is marketing. Given the fact most of us would be out of a job without advertising of some kind, I cannot condemn it the way you do.

However I despise deceitful marketing as well. I am also not a big fan of the way my company markets itself. It is neither deceitful nor misleading, but just ... irrelevant to people working in the space and thus hard to align with.

But I also know companies (that we have worked with) who spend their marketing budget on hosting small-ish conferences and choose to post content from their (technical) blog in their LinkedIn. For me personally, that way of marketing themselves just inspires more confidence than ... overconfident salespeople.


> Given the fact most of us would be out of a job without advertising of some kind, I cannot condemn it the way you do.

the same way cars brought the end of many professions. If there were no advertising we would all still have jobs and they would be much better too


Exactly as the sibling said, you would have nothing to program for because nobody would no you exist. You don't randomly search for Reggy, the product I made. But now you know about it because I just told you. All advertising is, is telling people you exist. You can do that by posting your spec manuals, making memes, making a landing page or a website, whatever you want.


> All advertising is, is telling people you exist.

If that is all advertising was, I don't believe this conversation would be happening. People (ITT) dislike advertising because of the other parts (tracking, subtle manipulation, etc). There's a side to it that has obvious benefit: Knowing you reach your target market with truthful and engaging content is something ad targeting, seo, etc, enable. The problem is they also enable deceit, manipulation, spam, etc. When I see the impact that has on people I know, I start to wonder if maybe it is worth throwing out the baby with the bathwater.


Programming also enables hackers, viruses, etc. Advertising enables good things like knowing there is a cure for your rare cancer (even if you search, there has to be information, which is advertising). It also enables the bad stuff you mentioned.

It is literally impossible to do anything without ads. You go to the store and it says peaches on a can of peaches. That’s an ad.


FYI I know about "reggy" and would never visit it because it was "advertised" by a random guy wanting to use a place for technical discussions to sell their product which is lame.


I would be very surprised if you, or anyone on this message board, had a use case for it. It was a niche example that I knew you wouldn’t know. But you made my point that advertising is about awareness first.


Maybe we wouldn’t even exist, nobody would use this mostly-for-webdevs website, because we’d all be busy programming machines in factories that make things.


Do you think revenue just magically appears in your company’s accounts receivable? do your customers cold call your sales reps?


OP mentioned that people have jobs because of advertising. sabbaticaldev mentioned that this wouldn't be true for more than a few hours because humans need jobs, advertising existing or not.


Idk the ad for the new windows terminal was pretty well received by developers[1].

[1] https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8gw0rXPMMPE


The slick ad for chocolate-flavored paste was pretty well received by the people who eat paste.


haha I didn't realize he was a consultant. I found myself nodding the whole time!


Business consultants make the worst/best marketers, you get used to bullshitting 24/7 about shit you don't know fuck about.




Guidelines | FAQ | Lists | API | Security | Legal | Apply to YC | Contact

Search: