One million, two hundred thousand dead from COVID and counting in the U.S. alone. Nearly 2% of all deaths in this past week were caused by COVID infection. This doesn’t even begin to touch the people who have suffered lifelong consequences from it.
Find me any statistic that puts any COVID vaccine within three orders of magnitude of these numbers or (maybe not so) kindly see yourself out.
Oh the piles of bodies. Please check the details behind such claims before trotting them out.
By the same US federal data COVID brought someone back to life. I'm not joking the obvious mistake is recorded and is a wonderful example of how the data needs to be cleaned checked and examined more closely.
Hundreds of millions of entries of data input by a large group of people across a wide region will always have errors and inconsistencies. This is true of data related to COVID-related deaths, homicides, car accidents, daycare enrollment rates, and everything in between.
Showing that individual data points are inconsistent or wrong does not by itself indicate that conclusions gleaned from a data set as a whole are incorrect.
Read the accounts from funeral home staff some time. We were very literally running out of places to put the actual, physical bodies. It turns out when you have a mortuary system that’s set up to process a reasonably consistent and predictable number of deceased humans, adding an sudden, unexpected, and sustained additional load of 10–15% (with spikes up to 33% and 45%) system stretches it beyond its limit.
No but it's a glaring example of referring to a non consistent dataset.
The data should be cleaned first to remove such problems which impacts totals.
Such work then has to look at labelled as having COVID at time of death Vs sole cause which is _missing_ from most Western datasets. And I'd be willing to believe it's missing from totals that large, unfortunately raising a question as to how many actually were killed by despite the fact we know >80% were likely over 80yr...
Not to forget the nice example, if you died from a heart attack due to a racy TV advert did the TV kill you?
I'm surprised (in a bad way) when people display limited ability to compare magnitudes. We see this all the time in discussions like clean energy and stuff. Sure, sometimes it is malicious or misinformed.
But in general it seems like some people can't do it (hence leading to things like payday loans, failure in managing finances, etc)
I am finding it very hard to reply to this post within the HN commenting guidelines, as it is essentially 100% unsubstantiated misinformation.
The COVID vaccines did not and do not cause deaths that are recorded as COVID deaths, full stop. A simple and obvious test of this is that there would have been a clear and obvious spike in COVID-related hospitalizations and deaths in locations where the vaccine began to be mass-administered. There is zero evidence of this in the data. In fact, the exact opposite is true.
> Plus everyone says it's safe but there was a vaccine that caused some condition 1-2 years post-vaccination, and it was by pure luck they found the connection to the vaccine.
This would be a lot more compelling if you could even name this condition.
When you manage to figure that out, I will be happy to engage in further critical discussion.
> This would be a lot more compelling if you could even name this condition.
Pandremix vaccine against H1N1 influenza (swine flu).
> The link between Pandemrix and narcolepsy was identified after epidemiological studies were conducted in these countries. It was largely by chance that researchers noticed a higher incidence of narcolepsy among children and adolescents who had received the vaccine.
> The exact mechanism linking Pandemrix to narcolepsy is not fully understood, but it is suspected to involve an autoimmune response possibly triggered by the adjuvant used in the vaccine (AS03), or by some components in the vaccine itself.
> Cases of narcolepsy were reported primarily in Finland and Sweden in 2010 and 2011, about 1-2 years after the mass vaccination campaigns.
You think it can only happen with Pandemrix? It is known that mRNA vaccines cause an autoimmune response. I have also seen a massive influx of patients with newly diagnosed autoimmune disorders post-vaccination. You could call it a coincidence all you want. On top of that, Pandemrix is a vaccine is supplied in separate vials, one containing the adjuvant, and the other the inactivated virus, so it is not even as relatively new as the mRNA vaccines.
Perhaps ask family or friends around who work in healthcare, I don't know.
I would also like to add another condition, which is far more known: Guillain-Barré Syndrome (GBS), which is a rare autoimmune disorder that has been associated with some vaccines in rare cases.
Actually, while we are at it, there have been several instances where rare adverse events or long-term conditions were discovered years after the introduction of a vaccine.
So, apart from narcolepsy caused by Pandemrix (again, made the association by luck), and GBS which is associated with most if not all vaccinations (albeit rare), there are a couple more:
- Oral Polio Vaccine (OPV) and Vaccine-Derived Poliovirus (VDPV)
-- Type: live attenuated vaccine
-- Discovery: *years* after initial widespread use
- Rotavirus Vaccines
-- Discovery: within a year after mass vaccination but took time to confirm causation
- HPV Vaccine and POTS (Postural Orthostatic Tachycardia Syndrome)
-- Discovery: concerns emerged years after widespread use
So, given our history, do you think an mRNA vaccine is completely safe and there is no way it could be associated to any conditions down on the line? To me that sounds like either denial or wishful thinking. It took years after mass vaccination with some vaccines, you simply cannot deny that, it is a fact. If you think mRNA vaccines are completely safe (which is highly doubtful, call it healthy skepticism), good for you, but do not threaten to take away people's jobs (among other things) because they care more about their life than you do. If you do care about your life, where is the skepticism given our history of some vaccines? We have never had an mRNA vaccine that we administered on a massive, global scale before.
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> The COVID vaccines did not and do not cause deaths that are recorded as COVID deaths, full stop
We literally do this in my country, and I know this because I worked in healthcare, and I have family and friends working in healthcare (doctors, nurses). It is not limited to COVID, FWIW.
So as far as "100% unsubstantiated misinformation" goes, yeah, no, I have first-hand experiences with such practices. You do not have to believe me, it makes no difference to me personally, and it seems like you already made up your mind about it.
Nothing is “completely safe”, but several orders of magnitude more people have died and suffered from COVID than have from any of the vaccines.
That you are having to reach for “well this other vaccine for this other condition caused a thing that was rare enough it took a lot of luck to link it back” is an unambiguous consequence of this. You know what we don’t have to search that hard for? The 7+ million actual deaths from COVID which reduced dramatically once the vaccine became available.
Deaths from COVID does not imply that the mRNA vaccines are not harmful and that there may be no dire consequences a year or two later because of it. It does not minimize the harmful impact of COVID either, no one (well, I surely did not) claimed this.
> rare enough
>> Studies showed that the risk of developing narcolepsy was about 5-13 times higher among those vaccinated with Pandemrix compared to the unvaccinated population, particularly in children and adolescents.
>>> The incidence rate of narcolepsy in vaccinated individuals was estimated to be about 1 in 16,000 to 1 in 50,000 doses, depending on the country and the age group.
>> In Finland, for instance, it was estimated that around 1 in 16,000 vaccinated children and adolescents developed narcolepsy.
Well, it may be "rare" in this particular case. What's not rare is the influx of people with MS (supposedly) in the country where I am located. It is OK though, no one is going to ever suspect the vaccine, we can blame everything on "long COVID", after all. That is not to say that long COVID does not exist.
Regardless of it being rare or not, it is besides the point. The point is that people should not be silenced and ridiculed and called a conspiracy theorist just because they brought up fair concerns. Those concerns do not invalidate nor minimize the harmful effects of COVID, and I feel like people think that when someone questions the safety of the vaccines, they somehow claim that COVID is all fun and sunshine. I personally never meant to claim that.
> The covid vaccine I had to take to as a condition to travel and employment has been banned from the market for safety reasons.
Which one? If you're talking about the Oxford-Astrazeneca vaccine, you should be gald to know that the suspension was short lived, and around April 2021 it was in the market again.
They stopped selling it in 2024, but that's because:
1. we are collectively burying our head in the sand about covid (in the UK it seems we don't even monitor the wastewater covid levels anymore)
2. there are a bunch of other vaccines available, and due to the earlier suspension, people trusted the other vaccines more (and thus it was struggling in the market)
> requested the voluntary withdrawal of the EUA for this vaccine. Janssen Biotech, Inc. informed the FDA that the last lots of the vaccine purchased by the U.S. Government have expired, there is no demand for new lots of the vaccine in the U.S., and they do not intend to update the strain composition of this vaccine to address emerging variants
I'm not well acquainted with practices in the pharmaceutical industry, so it looks a bit weird to me that they would request to withdraw authorisation. I suppose that it might be simpler for them to do so if they know that all remaining doses have expired, rather than risk lawsuits in case that someone might accidentally administer expired doses?
A pandemic and war have a lot in common. There's an information gap and an urgency of action needed, so people make the best decisions they can with the information they have at the time.
I didn't doubt history will show a lot of best-guesses based on available information were untrue. But I'd rather people take it seriously and follow the guidance of the folks who prepared for this kind of disaster than do what we did in the 1920s. Even with a knowledge gap and errors, it lengthened most people's lives to lock down, mask up, and get vaccinated.
You should be grateful that you've been able to get a vaccine when you could, and quit being so arrogant and know-it-all.
You typed 3 replies, and you didn't corroborate a single one of your posts, all the while projecting your ignorance onto others
You'd have a more sympathetic argument if you could talk about non-covid induced blood clots, that despite being reported didn't get accounted properly in statistics. I'm sure the numbers might be a bit worse than in official statistics, because of deficiencies in our covid19 first-line response, and in the lack of trust that people like you have in the medical establishment (which means that issues might go unreported, or dismissed if reported by cranks without evidence)
What will I do with that 99.97% survival rate? Add more 9s for my age and fitness. But yea ok, better take the experimental drugs now because the screen said to.
From my anecdotal experience, I think I'll take my chances with COVID, thanks.
Never got a cardiovascular condition from COVID, yet did (and it continues to worsen) from the vaccines.
Fool me once, shame on you. Fool me twice, shame on me.
At a certain point, "oh but statistically more people are worse off from COVID!" doesn't matter much to us as individuals, I think it's okay to act on behalf of my own self-preservation sometimes.
If the vaccine has caused you heart damage, that updates the Bayesian priors on whether you would have survived contracting the disease itself.
It is entirely possible the vaccine warded off a virus that would have killed your heart if your body had to respond directly to the unattenuated disease. I don't think we have enough information to be able to tell (how do you do an analysis of that kind when you don't even know precisely why COVID or the vaccine can cause heart damage?).
I swear the true believers will go their graves before they admit “yea, this was all a bit of an over reaction”
I’m happy to let everyone make their own decisions, but it’s a big never-again from me. Miss me with your untested drugs, thanks.