Fun is your brain rewarding you for something it thinks is practice on a useful skill. You get bored once you mastered it enough.
Some people continue playing a game even when it stops being fun, they are addicted to the reward mechanism in the game, and now the brain thinks that playing the game is a good way to work and provide for itself. I don't call that "play", its work, just not productive work.
Why is dice fun? Because your brain wants to map the pattern of the dice, trying to figure out how to get good rolls. You see that in most dice players, they develop a lot of superstition about what is good and bad dice, or how they always roll bad in critical moments etc. I'd assume that is from nature where you try to figure out what is a good nut to crack or where to find prey etc, basically a way to figure out useful patterns from random events.
So when I look at a sunset and enjoy that, I think it's fun to chase sunsets, my "brain" is telling me it's fun because I'm learning a new skill and receiving a dopamine reward for looking at the sunset and feeling good about it?
Looking at a sunset isn't a game you play, kids don't go and play "look at the sunset", I feel like you are grasping at straws.
Why would you feel calm and comfortable from a sunset? Probably to get you sleepy so you go find a place to sleep since there isn't much useful to do at night. That would be unrelated to play.
Anyway, most of our feelings comes from nature, we didn't evolve to be faulty, we evolved to do things efficiently, play is a part of efficiency. If it isn't for learning you would have to explain what it is more likely to be for. When kittens play and chase things or play fight with each other, do you think they are just wasting energy for no reason? No, they sharpen their senses and learn to hunt and fight.
As an adult, I find it fun and enjoyable to seek out sunsets I find the colors beautiful. I readily hike mountains just to enjoy a sunset. I watch a sunset and then go party till 3 am, so maybe it's got to do with finding a nice place to sleep, or maybe it's just nice that we have the ability to appreciate phenomenon without having to apply some rigorous concept to it. I'd fly 2/3 of the way around the world to watch a total eclipse.
Personally I think you might be clasping at straws trying to equate every pleasant experience to some type of reward function.
I'd go as far as saying if we worked this simply and predictably, then our lives would be much easier. We'd all be exercising for that dopamine hit, we'd all be going to bed early after a nice sunset, but we dont.
Doing enjoyable things isn't "play", it isn't work and you relax but it isn't the same thing as playing.
> Personally I think you might be clasping at straws trying to equate every pleasant experience to some type of reward function.
No, here I just focus on why play is fun, you tried to pivot to other pleasurable experiences. Unlike watching sunsets basically every animal plays around as kids, that play is therefore something that is directly related to survival of the fittest or we wouldn't see that everywhere. You need a really strong argument why for humans play doesn't fill that role when it fills that role for basically every other intelligent animal.
> I'd go as far as saying if we worked this simply and predictably, then our lives would be much easier
So you think humanity would be better off if nobody played around and discovered new things? We would be stuck as monkeys in trees then. Play is pivotal to humanity.
How can you argue I’m smuggling ”enjoyable” experiences into the argument when you yourself admit play is also Enjoyable. What is the actual difference? Even enjoying a cup of coffee can be considered play if I put the coffee in my mouth and play around and pay careful attention to he aromas a texture.
They’re one and the same thing. It’s a matter of language that makes them appear to be different things. Taking a dip in a pool can be considered play and it can also be pleasurable.
> How can you argue I’m smuggling ”enjoyable” experiences into the argument when you yourself admit play is also Enjoyable
Play is enjoyable, not all enjoyable things are play. You started to add other enjoyable things into the argument about play.
> They’re one and the same thing
No they are not. Play is typically seen as what children do, or playing sports, or playing a game, or a competition. You can read the definitions here, none of them say that stuff like eating hotdogs is play unless it is an eating contest or other kind of game:
You’re hung up on language in my opinion and it was the inspiration for my original comment. There is a gradient between playing and just doing something enjoyable. It’s not a binary thing.
I do woodwork because I find it enjoyable but it’s also play time when I’m in my shop.
Language has limits. I bet you there are cultures which don’t distinguish between play and enjoyable activities and then we wouldn’t be sending each other links to merriam Webster.
Btw I don't disagree people learn from play, I just don't think it's the end goal of play.
It's probably not something you secretly wish when playing, and perhaps for the best (that you don't have fun and enjoy things always with an ulterior motive, except enjoying the experiences). I guess he's saying in the sense of the natural function of play, and we playing is mostly a consequence of the natural function. It's also very much true that we learn a lot, perhaps a significant chunk of what we learn is through play[1], so it's also undeniable that we do learn from play, even if humans have this great gift -- we are able to understand the nature of things (such as play) and choose to do them just for the sake of experiences, fun, joy, happiness, etc..
Which we should (finally :) ) recognize to be the source of all meaning.
We still should learn (and do practical stuff in general) because it supports our inner lives, including building technology, producing things (buildings, infrastructure) that support us and indeed enables our (inner) lives.
[1] Also of note humans, unlike LLMs, can learn all the time, we don't have a hard "training phase". It's true brain plasticity decays, and it becomes harder to learn as we age, but we can still learn more or less quickly at any age. This is why dedicating childhood to learning (as well as play) is natural.
I'm conscious I have to types of play though, I'm fully conscious sometimes play can be about learning and training, it's why I ski more difficult terrain than I'm comfortable with, but then I might go eat a massive bowl of pasta and have a glass or three of wine. On an intellectual level, I know there are healthy more rewarding things to eat. I know wine isn't great for me at those quantities. But I consciously make the choice to do it because it's fun.
I don't think that many calls indulging in food or bodily needs "play". Those are just core rewards, play is an active activity that is fun without being directly related to your survival, like eating is.
Eating ice cream instead of stale bread is absolutely play, just like running around on a soccer field is play even though running is a survival skill.
Yes, evolution makes play fun, but it's really learning, in the same that that evolution has made sweet and fatty things extra tasty, because they are full of energy.
Jokes on you. Every time you played ball you were secretly learning about ballistic trajectories and estimating velocities using visual cues such as apparent angular size and parallax.
