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Should it be legal for IA to offer this, especially for older and out of print books? Yes, almost certainly.

Is it legal? No, not as the law currently stands. You can support Robin Hood, but you shouldn't be shocked when Robin Hood is caught and sent to jail. It was a mistake and a huge legal risk for IA to do this. It could easily have brought down the whole organisation, and all that they've archived to date.

I wish a fraction of the people who are upset about this would actually commit a portion of their time to lobbying and organising for copyright reform. Copyright terms are too damn long, by half a century and then some. This isn't some iron law of nature, this could easily be changed if there were enough of a push for it.




Are you a lawyer? Can you point to the relevant statutes? I don't ask this flippantly as there exist many forms (private / public / academic) of library which allow for both physical and digital lending of owned assets and are not subject to lawsuits like this. It's not at all obvious that IA's interpretation of the law is in error.


The relevant statute provision is 17 U.S.C. § 501.

On March 24, 2023, the Internet Archive was found liable for copyright infringement under that section by a federal court, in an order granting a motion for a summary judgment.[0] A summary judgment means that there is no genuine dispute about facts, and the plaintiffs (the people suing the Internet Archive) are entitled to a judgment as a matter of law.[1]

It is your prerogative to feel that you're better qualified to interpret federal law than a federal court is, but it is fairly misleading to say that it is not at all clear what the law is here, when a court decision exists on these exact facts.

Should the law be changed? Yes, in my opinion. Is there much dispute over what the law is? No, not really.

[0] https://storage.courtlistener.com/recap/gov.uscourts.nysd.53...

[1] Other common law jurisdictions use clearer language to describe summary judgments: in the UK and Australia, for example, a summary judgment is granted when a party has "no reasonable prospects of success" and there is no point in going to trial. These exact words aren't used in the US, but they give a reasonable indication of how summary judgments are used in practice.

None of this is legal advice.


You really don't need to be a lawyer to understand the extent to which Internet Archive really screwed up here. For starters they lost on Summary Judgment, which means they couldn't come up with a single issue of fact that the judge thought deserved a trial. Read the Order, the Judge obviously has it straight. Then check archive.org's Form 990s and see how little money they run on, how much they pissed away on legal fees so far, and also infer the amount they had to pay in damages, which was obviously very tiny.

You are welcome to argue it as a matter of culture (and I'm inclined to agree and cheer you on) but from a legal perspective, Brewster should be removed and they need to find competent people to put on the board because they really did put the entire organization at risk over an idiotic decision. And the ramifications continue.

Internet Archive's "we own a copy of a book, we scan it and loan out one digital copy" policy was already on shaky ground. When Covid hit and everyone lost their minds, letting homeless people sleep on the stairs of their building apparently wasn't enough so they just turned into The Pirate Bay and loaned out infinite copies of everything.

In discovery for the case, it turned out they weren't even tracking the "we own one copy" part to begin with correctly. None of this should be surprising to anyone who actually attempts to use the site. The whole thing is duct tape and string.

They have a tiny budget and the do amazing things with it, but it really deserves to be treated like a business and not be run like an art project. If they wanna stick your neck out and push for CDL reform, great. Just do it under a different LLC so you don't tank the 50 other important things you've got going on. And it's time for Brewster to move on. In any other non-profit he'd be gone by now.


I disagree. Brewster demonstrated real courage.

The world locked down u necessarily precisely because the population has not been getting smarter the past 50 years because copyright has poisoned our information wells.

This is a fight worth having.

It's time to abolish copyright.


There's absolutely no courage in putting that's been built and used for almost 2 decades on the line because of the wave of "we must do something" that was so common in March and April 2020 even when in most cases, doing nothing would've been more helpful.

It would be like if Mozilla decided to stop taking any google funding overnight because they felt like their values didn't fit with Google's. Sure, it would be well intentioned. But then you also guaranteed that Firefox won't be able to exist for more than a few weeks. Deciding to unilaterally reproduce (by way of unlimited lending without the copies to back said lending) books is the legal equivalent to doing that. It would be a nice thing to have, but it's not something you get by just getting wrecked in an open and shut case in court.


> It would be like if Mozilla decided to stop taking any google funding overnight because they felt like their values didn't fit with Google's.

That would be the best thing that could happen to Mozilla becose then the vultures would move on and the project could get back to its mission without the MAJOR conflict of interest fucking up their incentives.

> But then you also guaranteed that Firefox won't be able to exist for more than a few weeks.

Firefox doesn't need Mozilla to continue existing. But even if it died that would at least make space for an alternative that isn't just controlled opposition doing the bare minimum to protect Google from antitrust lawsuits while continuuously disrespecting user choices and preferences.


> This is a fight worth having.

Literally everyone here has already stated that they agree with you on this. There's no controversy upthread about whether copyright law needs to be reformed, the controversy is over whether it made sense to risk the entire Internet Archive (whose most important contribution to the knowledge of mankind has nothing to do with online lending) or if it should have been fought by an organization that was built to fight it.

Their instinct to help is admirable, but their lack of restraint shows a major lack of judgment and very well could have put their archives of the internet at risk. Not every nonprofit organization can do everything.


To put a finer point on it, the archive is there to be an archive -- there is a lot to be done there. The EFF is there to fight battles.


When a CEO pulls some nonsense and gets his ass handed to him in court, it's not an act of bravery, it's hubris. He set the result both you and I want back ten years by running his organization in such a sloppy manner. Even before the lawsuit they didn't keep accurate records of what they were lending, full stop.


It may be a fight worth having, but that wasn’t the way to fight it. There was zero chance this was going to end with a favorable court decision. It only carried risk for the organization - no upside at all.


If you want to fight that fight, instead of putting hundreds of thousands of books on the internet, you start with a few books and get sued over that. That way, if you lose, the actual damages are minimal. Right now, the Internet Archive could go bankrupt because of the millions of dollars in potential damages now that they've lost.

Finding representative cases to fight over and create precedent is a common strategy that exposes you to less risk if you lose.


> from a legal perspective, Brewster should be removed and they need to find competent people to put on the board

I don't like that the IA risked the actual internet archive with this or that they chose to engage in DRM at all but let's be reall: "competent people" would have sold the IA to the advertisement moloch or another horror of modern civilization long ago. The IA does need a leader that puts principles above financial security.

> it really deserves to be treated like a business

That would be the absolute worst thing that could happen to the IA.

> And it's time for Brewster to move on. In any other non-profit he'd be gone by now.

Consider doing something worthwile of your own instead of trying those who have but aren't perfect enough in your opinion.


Stockpiling assets on an active fault line, opening a Credit Union, failed activism, obviously shitty tech... it's time to put a grownup in charge of the thing. They're an archive. It needs consistent funding and boring tech and to focus on three things, max.


Are you aware of a form of library subject to US law that lends copyrighted digital assets without either a license from the copyright holder or legal trouble from the copyright holder?


>Can you point to the relevant statutes?

IANAL, but:

https://www.law.cornell.edu/uscode/text/17/107

https://www.law.cornell.edu/uscode/text/17/108

https://www.law.cornell.edu/uscode/text/17/117

What the Internet Archive did (loan many digital copies based on one physical copy) is illegal as the law stands today.


> Can you point to the relevant statutes?

This is about sound recordings rather than books, but one of the more insane features of US copyright law is that the copyright status of sound recordings made before 1972 is governed by state rather than federal law, and many states are thought to have no applicable statute. Some of these states determine copyright status for these works by deferring to federal law, which does not cover them.


> It was a mistake and a huge legal risk for IA to do this. It could easily have brought down the whole organisation, and all that they've archived to date.

Agreed. But the problem here is not the daring action but linking it to a sadly unique resource.

> You can support Robin Hood, but you shouldn't be shocked when Robin Hood is caught and sent to jail.

You can however still protest robin hood being sent to jail and you can shame the fat nobles calling for robin hood to be hanged and you can grab the pitchforks and make sure they loose more than they gain. The law is meaningless if it doesn't have the support of the people. Copyright is already routinely ignored by almost everyone when its convenient (outside commercial activity).

Lobbying is all well and good but that's the corporations' turf. Nothing wrong with deciding not to play their game and choose other ways to fight the absurd copyright laws.


> Should it be legal for IA to offer this, especially for older and out of print books? Yes, almost certainly

No, not “almost certainly.”

I think they pushed the limit of what should be legal, especially since they were digitizing print books and lending those out as ebooks.


Actually, the digitising part is what I find the most acceptable. Why shouldn't they be allowed to do this? Would you have the same problem if they bought ebooks in MOBI, converted them and then lent out EPUB versions.

The lending out more copies than they bought part is what there are some good arguments against.


> lending out more copies than they bought

Legality aside, why is this acceptable for banks but not books?

Banks can create money out of nothing to enrich themselves, but libraries can't lend out more books than they have to enrich society?

Contemporary copyright law is pernicious and IMO if not drastically reformed soon, will be made moot and obsolete by genAI.


> Banks can create money out of nothing to enrich themselves, but libraries can't lend out more books than they have to enrich society?

Others are enriched by the made up money the banks lend out, too. The people who buy homes, start businesses, go to college, etc.

But yeah, I think otherwise you have a decent understanding of it.


> Would you have the same problem if they bought ebooks in MOBI, converted them and then lent out EPUB versions.

Yes.

> Why shouldn't they be allowed to do this

They bought a paper book, not the right to lend out an ebook.


The contents is the thing that deserves protection, not every individual instance of a medium it's stored on. If I buy a music CD, I paid for one license to play that album plus some plastic and distribution fees. If I make a copy to play because I don't want to damage the original, if I then lend that copy to my friend, if I rip it to mp3 because nothing plays CDs anymore - in all those cases, only one copy is being used so my one "license to play" should suffice.


> if I rip it to mp3 because nothing plays CDs anymore - in all those cases, only one copy is being used so my one "license to play" should suffice.

Sure, I disagree but whatever. Your license to play in this case shouldn’t extend to lending those MP3s that can easily be copied by as many people as you can “lend” those MP3s to.

> The contents is the thing that deserves protection

Also I disagree with this. The content doesn’t “deserve” to be protected.


I meant the deserve part in the sense that if we're doing copyright, the only thing that makes sense to protect is the work itself, not the piece of plastic or paper holding it. Whether works "deserve" to be protected is an entirely separate discussion.

As for lending, there is very little difference between lending a physical medium and expecting it to be returned and sending a digital asset and expecting it to be deleted afterwards. In both cases you have basically no way of preventing someone from making a copy and have to just trust them and/or dangle the threat of legal action over them. Yes, some things are more effort to copy than others, but with modern phones and OCR, even books can be digitised and copied in a matter of minutes and with no material cost.

So practically, if we wanted to prevent copying, we shouldn't allow lending at all. And I think that would be too important of a thing to sacrifice just to get authors a few extra percent in income (since, as we've seen, people who pirate are not very likely to buy if piracy isn't an option).


> I meant the deserve part in the sense that if we're doing copyright, the only thing that makes sense to protect is the work itself

I disagree with this as well. “Works” don’t deserve anything. Stuff comes and goes.

> So practically, if we wanted to prevent copying, we shouldn't allow lending at all.

Who said we wanted to prevent copying?

IMO we want to prevent cmd+c / cmd+v copying or trivial DRM breaking with Calibre or something. If somebody wants to snap photos of each page of a book to “preserve the work” go nuts. But then don’t go sharing the MOBI they make of those pages.




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