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> Michael says he was lucky that he lost the password years ago because, otherwise, he would have sold off the bitcoin when it was worth $40,000 a coin and missed out on a greater fortune.

This is so true for stocks too




Yes but stocks are usually tied to a business producing some sort of service that people want, and therefore have value. Crypto is tied to, checks notes nothing.


I’m no shill for crypto, but you can’t with a straight face claim that all non-crypto financial instruments are ‘tied to … some sort of service that people want’.

There’s a whole world of shady crap going on in the ‘legitimate’ financial space.


Oh absolutely. Money is the root of all evil.

But crypto bros are often delusional about what intrinsical value exists in the normal market, compared to crypto coins where they invent the value. Therefore manipulation of value compared to real world markets becomes a lot more abstract.


The original saying is:

"For the love of money is the root of all evil: ..." -- 1 Timothy, 6:10

It's not the money that is evil, it is the things we do because of the desire we have for it.


Yep, greed.

Further correction though, it actually says “the love of money is the root of all kinds of evil.”

If you really go down the rabbit hole, pride is probably the root of all evil. It’s certainly the root of greed.


> it actually says “the love of money is the root of all kinds of evil.”

That depends on the translation you're using[0] ... it might be interesting to go back to the original (as best we can).

Also "all kinds of evil" can be interpreted in (at least) two ways, so it's ambiguous anyway.

But as with all these things, it's perhaps best to use the text to spark a search for a truth, or at least a useful guiding principle.

[0] https://www.biblegateway.com/verse/en/1%20Timothy%206:10


Young's literal translation is pretty good for those who don't read Koine Greek or otherwise aren't eager to break out a copy of Strong's concordance. It's interesting to see the minor difference between "a root" and "the root" for example:

9 and those wishing to be rich, do fall into temptation and a snare, and many desires, foolish and hurtful, that sink men into ruin and destruction,

10 for a root of all the evils is the love of money, which certain longing for did go astray from the faith, and themselves did pierce through with many sorrows;


God is the root of all evil, he created it after all.


Evil is not an object, so the verb "create" cannot be properly applied to it.


At the root of all that is premature optimization.


Hey, the customer is always right.....


One of the greatest uses of crypto is the ability to transfer any amount of money to any point on earth for next to nothing and no questions asked.

That is worth more than most any other use for crypto.


So you can use it to conduct illegal cross border money transfers... of course most cryptos aren't anonymous and even those are you still need to transfer it to a local currency etc. for that functionality to be useful.


> So you can use it to conduct illegal cross border money transfers

That's exactly the use of crypto. Illegal being based on a random law by a random government in a random country.


Getting payment is crypto is excellent if you live in a third world country like me. And a lot of services are enabling crypto payments so illegal stuff isn’t really all of it. One example is grab app which is huge in asian market. Getting payment and transferring to local currency takes about 20 mins included manual clicks for me. Comparing this to bank system which takes a week and has at least 30x cost, it is obviously a huge improvement.


OP for this bit of thread here; can confirm that as an Aussie who recently visited Malaysia, getting cash on to Grab was a proper pain in the ass.

Had I been able to transfer Eth, which I didn’t see as an option last August, I would have been delighted with such a choice.


Making it illegal to bring money across borders is the crime.


It's worth basically nothing because no normal human only sends 'value' without receiving something.

Bitcoin did not solve any real problem and you still need an additional mechanism to make sure that the thing you get back, actually happens.


but you can't. you can't send Bitcoin or Eth around the world for "next to nothing" today. not in a reasonable time frame. and that isn't accounting at all for the massive power wastage in the Bitcoin case.


It will currently cost you $1 to send any amount of ETH to another address and that transaction will take 3 minutes. For $1.30, that same transaction will take 30 seconds.

You can do those same transfers cheaper and faster on an Ethereum layer 2.


My brother, have you heard of HBAR?

Hedera is the way.


So how would that help me to make sure I retrieve a product or service?

What happens when the product is faulty or not even arriving?


How do you get cash back in those cases?


You exchange cash only local and either take it back or call the police.

That's part of proof of stake of our society.

The same with lawyers and normal contracts.

All of it is part of our proof of stake.

Visa provides insurance and fraud detection.


You can do all the above with crypto. Except for the visa thing, which has nothing to do with cash.


That's not the point.

Crypto promised solving the issues of the fiat.

It just doesn't do that at all and need all of the mechanics of our proof of stake system while consuming a lot of energy for it's own proof of work.


Except that you cant, in a practical sense.

I can sell crypto to anyone, anywhere.

That cannot be used to purchase anything, anywhere.

Its only useful for a very narrow subset.


It can be exchanged for other currencies.


Which requires KYC in most places, and then you're going to start getting asked about the source of those funds. You'll also need to claim it on taxes, which if lied about will cause additional issues.

So, yeah, the "no questions asked" part is wrong. You can send money to anyone on earth, after a middleman takes a cut on your fiat exchange, the transfer, and the next fiat exchange, with questions asked, public for the world to see.


Why is this a problem if you are not doing anything illegal? It is much easier to send and receive money using blockchains


It's not. It's way easier and cheaper to send a bank transfer or wire. Bank transfers and wires also offer more privacy.

Unless you're actually going to directly use the cryptocurrency (which is generally impossible), it needs to be converted to/from fiat, which requires a bank transfer.


For you maybe, but not for me. Wire is 15 usd on receiving end fixed + some percentage of the amount sent. An ethereum transfer is 2 usd or so into my exchange and exchange charges nothing for withdrawal. Wire transfer takes 3-4 days in best case and bank calls me for some bs after 10 days in the worst case and I have to talk to them to approve it.

So after 20 mins of clicking some buttons I get my fiat currency in my bank account. And it costs 2 usd + some negligible amount.


You're not being very creative if you can't find someone to buy your crypto.


Humans are the root of evil, and money is how we exert control.


Dollars are also tied to nothing. A towel with the logo of a sports team also has zero intrinsic value. Same with a shiny lump of useless metal.

That's because being tied to something, or having intrinsic value is not how things gain value.

Things, crypto, dollars, gold, and towels, have value because people WANT them. That's it.

You even touched on it: "some sort of service that people want, and therefore have value" - crypto provides a service people want, therefore by your own words it has value.


US dollars are backed by the US economy and military


If US dollars can be backed by a military, crypto is backed by mining networks.

The mining network is a lot more productive than the US military which has vastly negative economic output. At least ASICs doesn't wander around wrecking countries in a semi-random fashion. The mining network even operates at a profit, which is much better than the US government by a huge margin. Someone thinks they are worth the money.


Dollars have fundamental demand because, among other things, you have to pay US sales taxes in them.

> Things, crypto, dollars, gold, and towels, have value because people WANT them. That's it.

People would want a lot of things if those things were free, question is what the demand curve is.


> Crypto is tied to.. nothing.

It's being tied to US state law, via the Uniform Commercial Code (UCC Article 12 for Digital Assets), https://www.clearygottlieb.com//news-and-insights/publicatio...

  Article 12 – dealing directly with the acquisition and disposition of interests (including security interests) in “controllable electronic records,” which would include Bitcoin, Ether, and a variety of other digital assets ... Control under Article 12 is designed to be a technology-neutral functional equivalent of “possession.” It generally encompasses circumstances when a party has the “private key”


I hate on crypto any chance I get, but crypto has damn near a monopoly in facilitating black and/or grey market electronic transactions.

It is very in demand, for instance, in helping dictators evade sanctions, or helping criminals extort or trade illegally.


> in helping dictators evade sanctions

Let's be realistic here, most of dictators evading sanctions do it (i) with good ol' bags of $/€/CHF/£, (ii) gold/platinum/diamonds/..., (iii) whatever ad-hoc currency satisfies the two parties (promises, shares, goods, ...); in short everything but traceable-in-the-open digital currencies where most of the in/egress feature mandatory KYC.

If you believe e.g. that the US/EU firms still doing business in Russia are doing it in ETH/BTC, I have a port in Serbia to sell you.


That's why I specified 'electronic'. Moving physical items around the globe is obviously within the ability of an independent state, but it has logistical overhead. ETH/BTC is comparatively cheap to move.


But dictators don't want electronic things – especially the one whose very design imply them being fully traceable such as ETH/BTC.

If you are in the circles where having to move $10M illegally is a common occurrence, paying a guy $10k to take a train between Russia and China with a bag of cash and bribe the border guards another $10k is much better than trying to weasel your way through the KYC process of Coinbase.


No dictator is using Coinbase. Often they get their digital currencies directly, through other illicit activities. e.g. theft, scams, malware, etc.


I suppose you could count Venezuelans going hungry as "criminals".

But I wouldn't.


BTC doesn't have a $1.3T market cap because of the utility it has in buying beans in Venezuela.

Of course, people there may use it for that purpose, but that demand is a negligible part of the overall demand for cryptocurrencies.


In the Western world, a "criminal" is any person not conforming to the government mandated system of work and transactions.


I'm not sure if you're being "technically correct, the best kind of correct" or trying to actually specify the definition.

Actual definition: In the Western world, a "criminal" is any person tried and convicted of breaking the law.

Your definition is, however, correct for how it sometimes works and how "they" would like it to work. (where your use of the word "mandate" means "whichever direction the wind is currently blowing").


Oh god this gets trotted out every time someone points out the evil that crypto facilitates. Give it a rest. It pales in comparison and there are many other solutions that your argument conveniently ignores.


The vast majority of bitcoin use is legal.

https://www.nber.org/system/files/working_papers/w29396/w293...

> For example, illegal transactions, scams and gambling together make up less than 3% of volume.

Sure there's the odd dumb criminal who doesn't understand the prosecutorial implications of an immutable public ledger. But it pales in comparison, according to the actual data.


Yes, because most of the transfers happening are speculative investment trades, arbitrage, etc. People moving money around, without paying for anything.

That source says, when it comes to the demand in terms of spending crypto for goods or services:

> 46% of transactions are due to illegal transactions


The 46% is a quote from an obsoleted paper, and it then goes on to explain why their methodology was flawed.


It’s a difference of opinion between the authors.

If Bob transfers $10 back and forth between both of his bank accounts 99 times and then buys $10 worth of crack, would you say that 1% of Bobs money was used for illegal purposes or 100% of it was used for illegal purposes? Depends on what specifically you're trying to measure.

There are two things here that are simultaneously true:

1. A small percent of BTC transactions are for illicit purposes.

2. A large percentage of the goods and services purchased with BTC are illicit.


I love how you quote that, but not other lines like:

"We first document that 90% of transaction volume on the Bitcoin blockchain is not tied to economically meaningful activities".

How much of the actually meaningful use is legal? E.g. buying good and services, not evading laws, regulations, sales taxes etc.


Moving the goalposts. GP was only talking about illegal activity. But since you brought it up -

Global GDP is $101T. Global yearly forex volume is $2738T. So by this logic you should conclude that 96% of transaction volume in the traditional financial system is also not tied to economically meaningful activities. You're going to be disappointed if you want to believe society as a whole is any less financialized than bitcoin.

What do you think would be an acceptable percentage of speculation?

https://www.compareforexbrokers.com/forex-trading/statistics...

https://data.worldbank.org/indicator/NY.GDP.MKTP.CD


I think it's absurd to say that only say 3% of crypto transactions are criminal, if the majority of other transactions are meaningless.

Surely what we actually care about is how many useful, legal, meaningful transactions there are.

For example if for every 1 legal transaction there is 3 illegal transactions and 96 speculative or maintenance transactions... it starts looking like this is predominantly for criminal uses even though only 3% of transactions are criminal.



Which solution(s) competed with Bitcoin for those Venezuelans?

Why didn't you name one?


oh sure, crypto is an entirely benevolent effort to feed the starving around the world


Part of the reason that the US Government has been trying for the last few years to squash it is because it's threatening the US Dollar's hegemony in, cough, international trade.

If you're buying illegal black market shit, you're darn well gonna do it using the Red, White, and Blue's Green!

This is also proof of cryptocurrency's use-case as a method of value transfer (ie. currency). Crime and porn are the traditional testing grounds for new disruptive technologies. I remember this thing called the Internet...


Are you trying to say the initial internet was created and tested for crime and porn? This is major news to me...


You're making this up. Doing illegal transactions on a public ledger where the off ramps are all KYC makes it easier for them to trace criminal activity than the traditional international banking systems.


That argument doesn't make sense, without taking a side, because it's not supposed to be like a share in a business.

You'd do better to argue 'currencies are usually tied to a productive country with some measurable GDP and therefore [...]'.


Crypto is bootstrapped internet money. If you can't see the value in that, it's because you don't want to see it.


Stocks arent tied to company performance unless they have divendends. Which would mean most stocks are also tied to nothing. Except stocks have recognizable logos I guess.


Cryto is excellent for keeping money and transfers. Especially if you don’t live in eu our us. Big coins are getting very stable and are good long term investments depending on how you see it will go :)

Bank system is terribly inefficient comparatively and it is a huge market


People want drugs, it’s a huge industry. Drugs aren’t going away buddy.


Set up monthly purchases of index funds into a Roth and a 401(k). Forget about them and learn to completely ignore financial news.


Is it true if you had Apple stock, or Amazon? Yes.

Unfortunately others owned Sears Roebuck, or Enron.


Hey, Kodak was a safe bet.

Who could have guessed they'd pass on digital even though they practically invented it.




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