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> the "reasoning" they do is really just parroting a weighted average (with randomness injected) of the matching training data

Perhaps our brains are doing exactly the same, just with more sophistication?




No.

We know how current deep learning neural networks are trained.

We know definitively that this is not how brains learn.

Understanding requires learning. Dynamic learning. In order to experience something, an entity needs to be able to form new memories dynamically.

This does not happen anywhere in current tech. It's faked in some cases, but no, it doesn't really happen.


> We know definitively that this is not how brains learn.

Ok then, I guess the case is closed.

> an entity needs to be able to form new memories dynamically.

LLMs can form new memories dynamically. Just pop some new data into the context.


> LLMs can form new memories dynamically. Just pop some new data into the context.

No, that's an illusion.

The LLM itself is static. The recurrent connections form a soft-of temporary memory that doesn't affect the learned behavior of the network at all.

I don't get why people who don't understand what's happening keep arguing that AIs are some sci-fi interpretation of AI. They're not. At least not yet.


It isn't temporary if you keep it permanently in context (or in a RAG store) and pass it into every model call, which is how long-term memory is being implemented both in research and in practice. And yes it obviously does affect the learned behavior. The distinction you're making between training and context is arbitrary.


> We know definitively that this is not how brains learn.

So you have mechanistic, formal model of how the brain functions? That's news to me.


Your brain was first trained by reading all of the Internet?

Anyway, the question of whether computers can think is as interesting as the question whether submarines can swim.


> Anyway, the question of whether computers can think is as interesting as the question whether submarines can swim.

Given the amount of ink spilled on the question, gotta disagree with you there.


For the record, that wasn't me, it's a famous quote from Edsger Dijkstra.


Endless ink has been spilled on the most banal and useless things. Deconstructing ice cream and physical beauty from a Marxist-feminist race-conscious postmodern perspective.


Except one is clearly a niche question, and the other has repeatedly captured the world's imagination and spilled orders of magnitude more ink.


Is it interesting to ponder if the Earth is flat?


There's no way brains have the "right answers" fed into them as required by backpropagation.


Look up predictive coding. Our senses are constantly feeding us corrections to our predictions.


Every single discussion of ‘AGI’ has endless comments exactly like this. Whatever criticism is made of an attempt to produce a reasoning machine, there’s always inevitably someone who says ‘but that’s just what our brains do, duhhh… stop trying to feel special’.

It’s boring, and it’s also completely content-free. This particular instance doesn’t even make sense: how can it be exactly the same, yet more sophisticated?

Sorry.


The problem is that we currently lack good definitions for crucial words such as "understanding" and we don't know how brains work, so that nobody can objectively tell whether a spreadsheet "understands" anything better than our brains. That makes these kinds of discussions quite unproductive.


I can’t define ‘understanding’ but I can certainly identify a lack of it when I see it. And LLM chatbots absolutely do not show signs of understanding. They do fine at reproducing and remixing things they’ve ‘seen’ millions of times before, but try asking them technical questions that involve logical deduction or an actual ability to do on-the-spot ‘thinking’ about new ideas. They fail miserably. ChatGPT is a smooth-talking swindler.

I suspect those who can’t see this either

(a) are software engineers amazed that a chatbot can write code, despite it having been trained on an unimaginably massive (morally ambiguously procured) dataset that probably already contains something close to the boilerplate you want anyway

(b) don’t have the sufficient level of technical knowledge to ask probing enough questions to betray the weaknesses. That is, anything you might ask is either so open-ended that almost anything coherent will look like a valid answer (this is most questions you could ask, outside of seriously technical fields) or has already been asked countless times before and is explicitly part of the training data.


Your understanding of how LLMs work isn’t at all accurate. There’s a valid debate to be had here, but it requires that both sides have a basic understanding of the subject matter.


How is it not accurate? I haven’t said anything about the internal workings of an LLM — just what it able to produce (which is based on observation).

I have more than a basic understanding of the subject matter (neural networks; specifically transformers, etc.). It’s actually not a hugely technical field.

By the way, it appears that you are in category (a).


You don’t know what they’re able to produce because you clearly don’t know how they actually work. So your “observations” are not worth much.


Yes I do, right down to the technical details. What makes you think I don’t? Is it because I used the word ‘remixing’?


As the comment I replied to very correctly said, we don’t know how the brain produces cognition. So you certainly cannot discard the hypothesis that it works through “parroting” a weighted average of training data just as LLMs are alleged to do.

Considering that LLMs with a much smaller number of neurons than the brain are in many cases producing human-level output, there is some evidence, if circumstantial, that our brains may be doing something similar.


LLMs don't have neurons. That's just marketing lol.

"A neuron in a neural network typically evaluates a sequence of tokens in one go, considering them as a whole input." -- ChatGPT

You could consider an RTX 4090 to be one neuron too.


It’s almost as if ‘neuron’ has a different meaning in computer science than biology.


LOL you just owned the guy who said "LLMs with a much smaller number of neurons than the brain are in many cases producing human-level output"


> in many cases producing human-level output

They’re not, unless you blindly believe OpenAI press releases and crypto scammer AI hype bros on Twitter.




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