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Maybe one of the outcomes of this could be a culture change in FOSS towards systematically banning rude consumers in Github issues, or, just in general, a heightened community awareness making us coming down on them way harder when we see it happen.



The attackers will leverage any culture that helps them accomplish their goals.

If being rude and pushy doesn’t work, the next round will be kind and helpful. Don’t read too much into the cultural techniques used, because the cultural techniques will mirror the culture at the time.


Even if the security outcome is the same, I would still count people being kind and helpful online instead of rude as an improvement.


As always, there's an xkcd for that https://xkcd.com/810/


That's amazing.


Spot on. The counter should be sound regardless of any social or cultural context, a process where being polite or rude, pushy or not is irrelevant.


Agree. I think a more core issue here is that only 1 person needed to be convinced in order to push malware into xz


The Jia Tan character was never rude. If you make rudeness the thing that throws a red flag, then ‘nice’ fake accounts will bubble up to do the pressuring.


The assumption is that the group behind this attack had sock puppets that were rude to Lasse Collin, to wear him down, and then Jia Tan swept in as the savior.


Jia Tan wasn't rude, but the original maintainer Laser Collin probably wouldn't have been as burned out and willing to give responsibility to them if the community wasn't as rude and demanding of someone doing free work for them.

I think we need to start paying more of these open source maintainers and have some staff/volunteers that can help them manage their git hub issue volume.


The article covers that those rude accounts may have been sybils of the attacker to create pressure. It's effectively good cop/bad cop for open source.


There was definitely good cop/bad cop going on. That’s a really powerful psychological tool.


Pressuring the maintainer is already rude in itself and being polite about it won't help them

If they want things done quickly they can do it themselves


> If they want things done quickly they can do it themselves

I mean they kind of did. And that was the problem.


I want to caution against taking a good thing too far.

There's a certain kind of talented person who is all too conscious of their abilities and is arrogant, irascible, and demanding as a result. Linus Torvalds, Steve Jobs, Casey Muratori come to mind. Much as we might want these characters to be kinder, their irascibility is inseparable from their more admirable qualities.

Sometimes good things, even the best things, are made by difficult people, and we would lose a lot by making a community that alienates them.


That's a tough one - It's hard to fully disagree but in my experience you can have all the benefits without the poison. Accepting the poison just because of the benefits is kind of just giving up. I don't feel like the your hypothesis that the two are irrevocably linked holds up under examination.


Linus Torvalds is apparently trying to do better (although I haven't followed up with the progress), but more importantly, while he might be (have been) unnecessarily rude and aggressive, he's not entitled (as far as I know). I don't think he would jump into an issue tracker of some project he doesn't maintain and demand that certain changes be made.


After watching a recent talk with Linus Torvalds[0], it seems that he's become more soft spoken.

[0] clip about the Nvidia "incident" https://youtu.be/wvQ0N56pW74


There are plenty of hyper-competent technical people in the field who are also kind and patient. Being smart doesn't turn someone into a jerk.


People have been bullied out of 'nice' communities. See the 'Actix' debacle in Rust.


While I don't condone some of the treatment he received, that situation was extremely different.

A user reported a safety issue, the maintainer said it was safe. Then it was proven that it was in fact unsafe, and the maintainer justified it with performance. Then a PR was filed which was safe and did not regress performance, and the maintainer rejected it with "this patch is boring"

The behavior of both sides was deeply unacceptable. If someone identifies a legitimate issue and files a PR to fix it, don't insult them by calling the patch "boring" and don't reject it solely on that basis.


That was mostly redditors though. Reddit is not a nice community.


Most "nice" communities aren't all that nice if they consider you to be part of the out group.


Redditors on r/rust are ostensible the same as saying Rust programmers.


I don't want to excuse rudeness or a sense of entitlement. But I think we can still understand where it comes from. A lot of these people probably work on crappy codebases where "let's just add a random dependency without any vetting" was the norm, they might have to deal with production issues etc. There's probably a systemic issue behind it, that our industry relies too much on unpaid labour and is usually not willing to contribute back.[0]

[0] Funnily enough, just a week or two ago, I fixed an issue in an OS project that we introduced at work. It was an easy frontend fix even for someone like me who doesn't do frontend and barely knows how to spell Vue. And more importantly, in the issue description somebody already wrote exactly what causes the bug and what would need to change - the only thing left was finding the place where to make the (one-line) change. Somehow that issue had been open for 2 years but nobody of the several people who complained (nor the maintainer) had bothered to fix it. After I made a PR, it was merged within a day.


Just don't do anything crazy. There are legitimately crazy people asking for crazy things, not necessarily backdoors.


Being rude is... unimportant. A lot of people think being passive aggressive is being polite when it's actually being rude + deceitful. There's nothing wrong with being direct, which some mistake for rude. I find it refreshing.




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