I don't believe it is that, because police shoot people who are armed with knives, tree branches, and unarmed on a pretty regular basis... all of which are readily available in Germany.
There was a homeless person here in San Diego because he had a tree branch and looked like he was going to use it against the officers (the person was mentally ill). Not to mention the guy who jumped the White House fence who had a butterknife (the President wasn't in the country at the time). The butterknife guy was shot and killed, since he didn't follow orders to put the knife down.
I believe it is a lack of respect for human life along with the fact that these cases have made it to the Superme Court which ruled for the officers, if the officer feel they are in danger, they can shoot to kill. And they do so.
My guess is German police offers don't care if a person has a tree branch, butterknife, stones or whatever they go in and make the arrest without just shooting the person. There is some risk of personal injury but probably nothing that 10 officers with billy-clubs can't handle.
> My guess is German police offers don't care if a person has a tree branch, butterknife, [...]
I'm pretty sure policy is if the guy is holding a knife, you warn them and draw your gun.
Then if the guy comes at you you've got the possibility to fire to avoid injury or death.
While use of guns by the police is extremely scrutinized (it's often big in the news when it happens). The guns are a last resort in the really messy situations when there's no other way out. (And you have to prove that later on)
As far as I'm aware though, disarming someone with a knife is relatively easy if you're highly trained and armoured, and they are literally "coming at you," ie. you have plenty of notice.
It all comes down to the value of human life: how much personal effort and risk are you willing to go to in order to protect a murderous criminal? Should you chance a little light judo to make him drop the blade? Or should you just put a cap through his eye socket and go to lunch?
I know which category I'm more willing to be policed by.
I have some knowledge of this I don't entirely agree.
I once wanted to be a police officer, and went through police training in Florida. I also currently study Aikido and Kali (Eskrima). I have practiced many knife disarm techniques and some defensive/offensive knife use. Taking a knife from someone who is actively trying to hurt or kill you with it and has even minimal training in how to use it for that purpose is extremely difficult. You will almost certainly be cut, and a cut to the arm can disable your hand. A baton improves the odds, but it's still very risky. Most police body armor does not provide significant protection from knives, nor does it cover the arms, legs or neck, which are excellent targets for a knife.
Disarming or disabling a knife-wielding attacker requires tools that can be used from a long distance. Pepper spray and Tasers are good less-lethal options, especially when multiple officers are present. These should be tried in most situations before going to a firearm, but if a suspect charges an officer with a knife there isn't time to wait and see. The range of a Taser happens to be the same (21 feet) as the distance most people can cover in the amount of time it takes for most officers to draw and fire a pistol. If the Taser fails or misses, it doesn't hold a second shot and can't be reloaded quickly. Most of the time, I'd want the officer to risk trying the Taser, but it's not reasonable to ask someone to go up against a knife unarmed.
> "I suspect it would make them a lot less approachable."
As a law abiding American, I can confirm that statement. There are a lot of scary looking characters that you can see while strolling through my city but none of them make me as nervous as police officers.
I often see policemen helping tourists with directions and things - I even once saw some policemen replacing a punctured tyre for what looked like Japanese tourists in an obvious rental car.
[NB I'm in Edinburgh which is usually full of tourists so I suspect the police are particularly well behaved here!]
Still, you don't want to bet your life that the assailant doesn't know how to wield a knife.
I don't agree with shooting anyone who is brandishing a knife, but trying to disarm them is a horrible idea as well. As others have mentioned, using beanbag guns or a taser or tear gas or rubber bullets or just about any less-lethal option (with other officers ready to shoot if the assailant charges) is the best solution.
Below 10yards a knife can be more dangerous than a gun. There is a video of a mentally ill brasilian with a machete sorrounded by 4 armed officers. He goes bersech and kills one or two and wounds the others, all without recieving a shot. Even if you shot someone but is not an incapacitating shot, it is possible that the attacker could inflict severe injuries on the cop. This is the reason of the huge quantities of shots to a single suspect in USA (better sorry than dead is the way they think about it). For example one famous case in florida, where an injured ( by a shot fired by an officer) suspect was able to kill 3 or 4 FBI agents( they changed the caliber from 9mm to .40 after this incident to increase the stopping power). So now they are encouraged to shot till the suspect doesn't move any more (15 shots or more).
Here in Spain is very extrange for police to have to shoot. But I don't think is only due to the restrictions of the police( very similar to the german ones). I think that the felons know that even if they are arrested and condemned, they are not going to spend a long time in prison (prison sentences are not very long, some time they seem a joke), and therefore it doesn't make sense ot worsen the charges by atacking or murdering someone. Also jails in Spain have a very open system of benefits and permits for good behaviour.
IMHO police violence is reactive to crime violence, which is reactive to punishment toughtness. Is a growing violence spiral that can be stoped if there is a change in the way punishment is understood ( after all you must grand an honorable exit even to your worst enemy).
Indeed; all police are trained in martial arts of some sort; disarming someone with a knife is usually easy. If you have been trained, you can see if your assailant is trained as well by how he holds the knife and the way he looks, moves and runs/walks. I'm talking knife here, not tree branch.
Then you have (again, you are trained) the option to shoot him in the head, heart, stomach all of which are usually quite lethal OR you can hit the leg, knee, shoulder, arm. Why use LETHAL force? Actually, in almost all cases of police violence in the US; why did they use lethal force and not just cap someone's knee? Unless the person is on PCP (or a zombie; note that in Resident Evil when the first zombies come in, they first shoot in the knee; it's obvious right? Basic training?) (which, tiring to say, you can see if you are trained) she/he will drop their weapon (even guns mind you) if their knee is capped or shoulder is pulverized...
> disarming someone with a knife is usually easy
> you have the option to shoot him in the head, heart, stomach all of which are usually quite lethal OR you can hit the leg, knee, shoulder, arm
You've been reading too much Martial Arts Wow literature. Taking a knife off someone is highly likely to get you cut, badly. Police don't aim for 'non lethal' parts of the body, because if you're using the gun, your life is being threatened, and you are using deadly force already - trying to hit anything other than the torso under these conditions (especially if the target is moving, or any real distance away) while your heart is pounding and your hands are shaking is very very difficult.
Yeah that's the whole point and problem; seems US police (and other gun bearers) seems to think their lives are threatened far too easily. That's the only stories we hear in the EU; obviously there will be plenty of cases were deadly force is needed. But if you feel your life is being threatened by unarmed people running away from a scene... ...
And the martial arts wow depends on the case; I have only been in knife fights were the knife was pulled by a drunk guy. No problem taking that away. I would imagine this is often the case; depending on the drug it would not be hard, especially with a baton in hand. No guns needed.
The stories I read here today, in the article and generally in the EU press about US shootings just show shoddy police work though. But that's because it's press; they don't really want to publish things that go well; only things that go bad.
> trying to hit anything other than the torso under these conditions (especially if the target is moving, or any real distance away) while your heart is pounding and your hands are shaking is very very difficult.
Real distance away? Talking about someone coming at you with a knife in hand...
Moving => yes but towards you and I would like to bet most (by far) people will run at you in a straight line when attacking.
But yes, of course, if you fear for your or someone else's life, you would shoot to kill. My whole point is that in the US it seems (i'm being careful here not to go with all public opinion :) police is far to trigger happy also in cases were it makes no sense at all.
Edit: also if you read 'ajuc' his comment about Poland (and it's the same in NL and DE and probably the rest of EU); you have to shoot at the legs first. It's how we are raised to think and when there are police shootings here often (mostly) people are just wounded.
You overestimate the chance of successfully disarming someone with a knife without receiving serious wounds.
You also overestimate the martial arts training most cops receive. If they're interested in martial arts on their own, they might be very good. Otherwise, a few months of training at any martial arts style that teaches immediately practical aspects like holds, joint locks, grappling, etc. will teach more than what cops know. It's not practical. Police procedure is designed to prevent officers from ever needing to get into serious hand to hand fights with criminals.
Most cops do not shoot violent criminals in the knees or shoulders because they are not that accurate.
In the Diallo shooting [1], 4 NYC police officers hit Diallo 19 times out of 41 rounds fired.
If a cop is a good shot, and is not under pressure, he or she can hit a suspect's knee. Most shootings occur under high pressure, and most cops are not good shots. Most cops qualify periodically as required under police regulations and that's all the firearms training they care about.
Then you have (again, you are trained) the option to shoot him in the head, heart, stomach all of which are usually quite lethal OR you can hit the leg, knee, shoulder, arm. Why use LETHAL force?
Because a gun, by definition, is lethal force.
Because shooting to wound is a fancy way of saying 'shoot to miss'.
Look: you train to shoot at center mass because that's what it takes to kill a person. If you don't intend to kill that person, then you have no business drawing a weapon.
Shooting to kill is under no circumstance allowed in Germany or Austria (for police and civilians) and it doesn't matter if it is more practical to aim for center mass and fire 10 times, because it's law over here.
If an aspiring police officer is not willing to submit to those rules, he or she will have to look for a different job.
It's easy for you to say that this is foolish, but in the end much less tragedies occur, because neither the offender, nor the police officer will feel like their lives are threatened in those heated situations. They'll catch the criminal anyways later on.
No it's not. 12 of Germany's 16 states allow officers to shoot to kill to prevent loss of life. Good to know most German or Austrian citizens are about as ignorant of German law as American citizens are of ours.
I do wonder where you got that idea, though. You can post the document, I speak German.
Sorry, my fault, you are right that it is allowed in some states.
But my wrong perception came from the reality how weapons are actually used here. And aside from the most extreme situations, like someone who takes hostages and threatens to kill them, people are not shot with the intention to kill. (I've looked that up after you corrected me, and the law is very specific about the cases where it is allowed)
What I know is that when I asked years ago about the rules when it is allowed to use a weapon, that I was told, that in most cases it ends bad for the defender, because courts accept the use of fireweapons as justified in rare situations.
So shooting at burglar or somebody attacking you without a gun will cause you major troubles if the attacker should die.
It's just heavily discouraged here to solve any problem by aggression. Even for slapping or insulting someone publicly you'll be held accountable for that in court.
So shooting at burglar or somebody attacking you without a gun will cause you major troubles if the attacker should die.
IANAL, and it varies by jurisdiction, but I believe the general standard for using deadly force is ..
'Not allowed to use deadly force against any person except as necessary in self-defense or the defense of another when they have reason to believe they or another are in danger of death or grievous bodily harm'
Paraphrasing from memory.
In other words, I can employ deadly force against an attacker if I believe he could kill me. Doesn't matter if he's armed with a club, a knife, or a bazooka.
I can't shoot a guy if he's running away.
This seems prudent, but that (he smiled) might be a cultural thing.
Where I grew up they used to say 'God made man, Sam Colt made them equal' and I guess I still believe it.
I'm not saying that guns are strictly non lethal tools, but there are different uses besides killing people. You could shoot the tires of a fleeing car, or you could stop a person by shooting into his leg. (a civilian probably wont be able to pull this off successfully in stressful situations) Or use it for sport or hunting.
It does depend on a countries situation and culture, how excessively such weapons are used, and in which situations.
When a countries population on average tends to not escalate situations, and shoot burglars or people running away, you can end up in a situation where it is hardly justifiable to use such weapons against persons.
And then such laws are okay. I mean there are criminals here like everywhere, but I honestly don't know anyone personally here that has ever been threatened with a gun or a knife, though I know of one case, where someone was beat up by a burglar. I'm pretty sure you wouldn't see a lot of use for a gun as a tool for protection if you lived here.
I'm not saying that guns are strictly non lethal tools, but there are different uses besides killing people.
Good point. You can kill animals for food, and I myself have enjoyed punching holes in paper.
But this ...
You could shoot the tires of a fleeing car, or you could stop a person by shooting into his leg.
No, no, no.
Shooting at a moving target is real hard. Shooting at a tire is stupid - the bullet is going to hit the rim, and be flung into who knows what direction.
You're not getting this: if you shoot a bullet into a person, anywhere, you run the risk of killing him, or at the least crippling him for life. A shoot into the knee is a life-changing crippling event. Tear into the femoral artery and your target is going to be dead in just a few minutes.
a civilian probably wont be able to pull this off successfully in stressful situations
I think you are imagining the cops have a lot more juju with firearms than they do. To attain the kind of skill you are a talking about - reliably hitting a guy in the legs - takes way more range time than is going to be practical.
But you seem to be from the US; I think the mindset is different for 'what works' and what doesn't.
If people tell you something long enough you start to believe it right? That's the same for both sides. I've been raised in television, papers etc (and real life to an extend) that you shoot to disarm, not to kill. You have been taught by the same media (and real life?) that you have no choice. Why is yours right? It seems a bit weird saying that comparing police kills by guns (and violence in general) on both sides to me. I think you have a choice but you are taught not to even consider it; is that a possibility?
Edit: It's a serious question, not something other than that. I'm curious as to the way I was raised and have lived and the way you were. I have been to the US a lot of times, but never more than a few months. I read global news (try to read from not too bad sources), but i've been taught & raised in the EU and even the reactions from non-EU give me the feeling there is something just very different in your attitude towards 'shooting people'. The 'no other choice' thing is very strange to me.
I think the mindset is different for 'what works' and what doesn't.
Could be. Although I tend to think in mechanical terms: switch A goes into tab B the same way in German, or English. Guns is guns, and the laws of physics apply no matter what the jurisdiction is.
You have been taught by the same media (and real life?) that you have no choice.
The latter. Though it's by the Grace of God that the single time I did draw my weapon that I was not compelled to use it.
In other words - he put his hands right up in the air.
I think you have a choice but you are taught not to even consider it; is that a possibility?
I believe you mis-understood.
You are not _forced_ to use your weapon if it comes out of the holster. But one never draws it as a threat, without intending to shoot. You deploy the weapon only if deadly force is warranted.
I'm curious as to the way I was raised and have lived and the way you were.
Middle class suburbs of Oklahoma. Then I joined the Marines for eight years, did some time at a Navy base where we had top secret clearance and got a lot of classes on how and when to use deadly force.
even the reactions from non-EU give me the feeling there is something just very different in your attitude towards 'shooting people'. The 'no other choice' thing is very strange to me.
The US - as you know - is a big place. Lots of room for cultural differences. A guy from California, who never handled a firearm outside of a video game is going to have a much different attitude than a guy from the midwest who is comfortable and familiar with 'guns'.
Worth repeating: it's not that one does not have a choice, but that one should never, ever, never deploy a weapon unless the circumstnances justify killing. You can always -not- shoot, but recongize that pulling it from it's holster is only done under dire circumstances.
A gun is a tool, is all. A very, very specialized tool.
Another way to put it - and this might be a money-grubbing attitude unique to Americans - is to internalize that -if- one deploys a firearm as a civilian one should expect to pay out $20,000 bucks minimum. That's the average legal bill a guy faces if he shoots someone in the US.
> Another way to put it - and this might be a money-grubbing attitude unique to Americans - is to internalize that -if- one deploys a firearm as a civilian one should expect to pay out $20,000 bucks minimum. That's the average legal bill a guy faces if he shoots someone in the US.
Wow :) That's really interesting to put it like that. I didn't know that. But police would have a different outlook on that right?
Yes and no (for ther disarming part). First i know some cops and their martial arts skills, sometimes they are not very high. Second, there are martial arts skills and martial arts skills. the main difference is if you train for competition, technique only or combat. And combat is really rare. And as it was mentioned before, knifes are really dangerous in cklose combat, not so much on your arms, but certainly on your body. Plus, vanila ballistic vest offer close to no protection against them.
Is it not possible to make a ballistic vest do both at once? If not, why not? I'm curious. And if they can, why don't they wear them? Seems knives are a lot easier to get for any age?
AFAIK the main reason is weight. The standard vests are a fabric, like a shirt (sorry for the over simplification). As mentioned in the other response these fabrics slow a bullet down to zero. It can still break your ribs, so. On the other hand, a knife cuts through these fabrics as it will cut through a shirt. A solution is to put "plates" in the vests at critical points, they also offer additional ballistic protection.
Downside is these plates aren't flexible (conformt is an issue if have to wear your vest all day at 30° C in summer) and they become heavier and more bulky.
But again, that's what if been told by some german cops and I'm no expert in that.
I recall this being something to do with the physics involved. Modern ballistic vests don't stop or reflect bullets like a stereotypical Iron Man armour, they're special fabric designed specifically to absorb the energy from fast-moving small things and slow them down to zero. A thrust knife moves a lot slower than a bullet and has a different shape (wider, flatter, etc) so apparently it can go through standard vests without much trouble. It's difficult to create practical vests that can stop both.
There was a homeless person here in San Diego because he had a tree branch and looked like he was going to use it against the officers (the person was mentally ill). Not to mention the guy who jumped the White House fence who had a butterknife (the President wasn't in the country at the time). The butterknife guy was shot and killed, since he didn't follow orders to put the knife down.
I believe it is a lack of respect for human life along with the fact that these cases have made it to the Superme Court which ruled for the officers, if the officer feel they are in danger, they can shoot to kill. And they do so.
My guess is German police offers don't care if a person has a tree branch, butterknife, stones or whatever they go in and make the arrest without just shooting the person. There is some risk of personal injury but probably nothing that 10 officers with billy-clubs can't handle.