> You then define all value only within the limited logic of markets.
Not all value, just monetary one. There's plenty of valueable activities that do not pay much or even a dime. However, the discussion revolved about making a living, not what's valueable in the abstract. And, regarding making a living, it's true that plenty more people want to be paid as historians that other people have a need for.
I respectfully acknowledge that you aren't the parent to whom I was
responding and that you're jumping in with your own contribution.
But I do not think the "discussion revolved about making a living"
Indeed, it's something of an irritating HN trope/style to try steering
the narrative by telling other people what the "discussion is
actually all about"
As I see it the main theme here was the low social status of academic
work in general.
I realise, and sympathise, that a lot of HN posters are deeply anxious
about "making a living".
My disagreement with the parent is the claim that "the market" is:
"" just society's built-in mechanism for trying to guide people into
doing things that are most needed. ""
Markets are awful at determining what is "needed". They're great at
figuring out how to satisfy people's superficial desires and great at
making money. Look around you. Millions of people doing pointless
make-work jobs in advertising and "the financial industry". Meanwhile,
we keep failing to solve the most elementary challenges of a
sustainable, healthy environment, which is surely a fundamental
need.
For me, this where Neo-liberalism falls flat. Markets cannot tell
society anything about what is needed. Society must tell markets what
is needed... however we achieve that. And so to see things only from
within the frame of "market think" is to remain blind to most of
reality.
Markets are society telling itself what is needed.
People want lots of plumbers, so they pay for it. Not many people want to be plumbers, so they get paid a lot.
People want one or two historians, so they vote and pay tax for it. Lots and lots of students would rather be historians than plumbers, so they don’t get paid a lot.
If you want people to want a sustainable economy, be less smug and judgemental and convince them to vote and pay for it.
I'd be very curious to know how old you are, where you were educated
and how you got these ideas.
The idea that markets literally are society seems not only wrong to
me, but an extremist and quite dangerous idea.
Instead of spending time convincing random people to vote for plumbers
of historians, I'd rather convince one person to take a wider look at
the world and question the views they've been raised on.
Is there even the slightest possibility that you're wrong? That maybe
society is more than just "markets"?
I don't agree with your political positions so clearly the problem is with me. I'm too old, too young, uneducated, or educated in the wrong place.
First of all, I'm surprised you can't see the simple truth that markets are an emergent property of any community. You yourself are part of various markets - every time you choose from an array of options, even if they're all free; every time you produce anything at all, you're in a market. That this isn't obvious to you makes me question why I bother talking to you.
Second of all, your attitude is absolutely smug and insufferable. You're convincing a negative number of people to see things your way. It's so wild to me that an entire half of the political spectrum in the West adopts this attitude, and when they lose there's an immense wailing and gnashing of teeth about how the other side is brainwashed. Meanwhile, the answer to their problems is in the mirror.
You're right Fred, we just don't see the world the same way
I personally don't think the idea of "markets" has much to offer the
world now, it's an outdated and immature way of trying to see complex
things in a simple way.
Sorry we can't seem to have a more grown up conversation about it, but
not only are you inflexible you've crossed the line into making
personal remarks which is unacceptable.
Not all value, just monetary one. There's plenty of valueable activities that do not pay much or even a dime. However, the discussion revolved about making a living, not what's valueable in the abstract. And, regarding making a living, it's true that plenty more people want to be paid as historians that other people have a need for.