Hacker News new | past | comments | ask | show | jobs | submit login

Yes: Programmers who start at twelve are often the 10x programmers who can really program faster than the average developer by a lot.

No: It's not because they have 10 more years of experience. Read "The Mythical Man Month." That's the book that popularized the concept that some developers were 5-25x faster than others. One of the takeaways was that the speed of a developer was not correlated with experience. At all.

That said, the kind of person who can learn programming at 12 might just be the kind of person who is really good at programming.

I started learning programming concepts at 11-12. I'm not the best programmer I know, but when I started out in the industry at 22 I was working with developers with 10+ years of (real) experience on me...and I was able to come in and improve on their code to an extreme degree. I was completing my projects faster than other senior developers. With less than two years of experience in the industry I was promoted to "senior" developer and put on a project as lead (and sole) developer and my project was the only one to be completed on time, and with no defects. (This is video game industry, so it wasn't exactly a super-simple project; at the time this meant games written 100% in assembly language with all kinds of memory and performance constraints, and a single bug meant Nintendo would reject the image and make you fix the problem. We got our cartridge approved the first time through.)

Some programmers are just faster and more intuitive with programming than others. This shouldn't be a surprise. Some writers are better and faster than others. Some artists are better and faster than others. Some architects are better and faster than others. Some product designers are better and faster than others. It's not all about the number of hours of practice in any of these cases; yes, the best in a field often practices an insane amount. But the very top in each field, despite having similar numbers of hours of practice and experience, can vary in skill by an insane amount. Even some of the best in each field are vastly different in speed: You can have an artist who takes years to paint a single painting, and another who does several per week, but of similar ultimate quality. Humans have different aptitudes. This shouldn't even be controversial.

I do wonder if the "learned programming at 12" has anything to do with it: Most people will only ever be able to speak a language as fluently as a native speaker if they learn it before they're about 13-14 years old. After that the brain (again, for most people; this isn't universal) apparently becomes less flexible. In MRI studies they can actually detect differences between the parts of the brain used to learn a foreign language as an adult vs. as a tween or early teen. So there's a chance that early exposure to the right concepts actually reshapes the brain. But that's just conjecture mixed with my intuition of the situation: When I observe "normal" developers program, it really feels like I'm a native speaker and they're trying to convert between an alien way of thinking about a problem into a foreign language they're not that familiar with.

AND...there may not be a need to explicitly PROGRAM before you're 15 to be good at it as an adult. There are video games that exercise similar brain regions that could substitute for actual programming experience. AND I may be 100% wrong. Would be good for someone to fund some studies.




That childhood native-fluency analogy is insightful! Your experience matches mine.

I started programming at age 7 and it's true that the way code forms in my head feels similar to the way words form when I'm writing or speaking in English. In the same way that I don't stop and consciously figure out whether to use the past or present tense while I'm talking, I usually don't consciously think about, say, what kind of looping construct I'm about to use; it's just the natural-feeling way to express the idea I'm trying to convey. The idea itself is kind of already in the form of mental code in the same way that my thoughts are kind of already in English if I'm speaking.

But... maybe that's how it is for everyone, even people who learned later? I only know how it is in my own head.


I totally get the same sense that I'm just "communicating" using code. I just write out the code that expresses the concepts I have in my head.

And at least some people clearly don't. I was talking to one guy who said that even for a simple for-each loop it was way faster for him to "Google the code he needs and modify it" than to write it. This boggled me. I couldn't imagine being able to Google and parse results and find the one I wanted and copy and paste it and modify it being faster than just writing the code.

Even famous developers brag about their inability to code. DHH (RoR developer) has a tweet where he brags that he couldn't code a bubble sort without Googling it. A nested loop with a single compare and swap...and he's "proud" of the fact that he needs to Google it?

I have no words.


The association with video games in your last paragraph makes a lot of sense to me. This is how I feel solving problems.

I always thought that people who start at 12 and keep at it are good because they really love it.I see people who struggle a lot with learning, and it's because they hate it but are doing it for other reasons.


People are also prone to love doing things that they're good at, so it's hard to know which came first. :)


That's true!!!


> Most people will only ever be able to speak a language as fluently as a native speaker if they learn it before they're about 13-14 years old.

Very few people both have a ton of exposure to a language and actually study the grammar and stuff as adults. If you don't learn the grammar you will still speak like a dog after living in a country for 20 years. A lot of people in an average company don't write hard things at their job, didn't read any textbooks etc. and spend loads of time in meetings etc.


> Very few people both have a ton of exposure to a language and actually study the grammar and stuff as adults.

Very few people actually learn to speak a language as a native speaker by "studying the grammar."

I remember people trying to learn what was and what wasn't a run-on sentence in junior high school, and being shocked that they had a hard time telling the difference.

And studying language explicitly doesn't change the brain regions used to the same that are used by a native speaker.

And that's my point. I didn't really "study" programming explicitly as much as understanding it intuitively. When exposed to a new concept, I just immediately internalize it; I don't need to use it a bunch of times and intentionally practice it. I just need to see it and it's obvious and becomes part of my tool-set.




Guidelines | FAQ | Lists | API | Security | Legal | Apply to YC | Contact

Search: