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Owners report rust forming on Tesla Cybertruck (theregister.com)
132 points by beardyw 8 months ago | hide | past | favorite | 251 comments



Direct link to images, since the article doesn't have it and they're buried in the thread:

https://www.cybertruckownersclub.com/forum/threads/rust-spot...


Those look a lot like the rust spots my stainless steel table knives get in the dishwasher (or used to get, before I started hand-washing them) - it's like a little bubble of rust that you can remove with Barkeeper's Friend or similar, but it leaves a tiny black pit that will rust again when exposed to the same environment.

I don't know if it's an inclusion in the steel that's rusting, or if the act of rusting creates the pit in the regular steel that's then susceptible to rusting again.


Weather got you down?

Introducing Tesla Edition Car Keepers Friend. It’s buffs out those stubborn Cybertruck stains!

Couldn’t Tesla could clear coat their panels like every manufacturer ever? I feel like this company is forever struggling to solve kind of obvious shortfalls of its own making.

They made a truck that can’t get dirty. "But we told you in the manual." How precious. How insane.

Of course I could be leaping to conclusions and it turns out to be rail dust. That’s still possible I guess, to be fair. But most manufacturers actually watch their cars before they sell it.


Well, from the article it seems that Tesla is aware of this.

> Just picked up my Cybertruck today. The advisor specifically mentioned the cybertrucks develop orange rust marks in the rain and that required the vehicle to be buffed out. I know I heard the story of never take out your Delorean in the rain but I just never read anything about rust and Cybertrucks.

I honestly can't imagine what they were thinking, shipping this turkey.


They were thinking the guy at the top is a rockstar and everything he says must be correct; otherwise, the board wouldn't have approved his insane pay package... right?


I was told by someone on this very board that Tesla attracts the best automotive engineers and designers, because they don't have the bureaucracy and red tape that increases go-to-market time.


Customers: The ultimate QA department. Most of 'em won't even report the issues back. No reports, no issues!


If you can, it’s good business to sell to a cult


> I honestly can't imagine what they were thinking, shipping this turkey.

What's bizarre is they could've just clear coated it.

They surely didn't omit this to save costs, since the thing is a luxury item.

The only answer I can imagine is that omitting the clearcoat was supposed to be a flex about how it doesn't need any lame paint like the plebe cars use, which makes it especially funny if you have to go in for routine buffing to remove the discoloration and get it back to its original appearance.


They offer the clear coat for several thousand dollars extra, so it seems to have been to save costs.


If you buy higher quality stainless steel (18/10, or 304), those spots don't form, or take many more years to show up.

Wonder if tesla is using 304, or have cheeped out with 430. If it's pitting already, makes me think it's the cheaper option.


I can't find anything more than hearsay about this, but I've now encountered the idea several times that Tesla chose or developed an unusual alloy to mitigate oilcanning, a phenomenon where large, flat pieces of sheet metal tend to cup or bow.

Here's some anecdata that is probably the most coherent read I can find on the topic of Cybertruck oilcanning: http://livingstingy.blogspot.com/2023/08/dude-wheres-my-cybe...

Seems the alloy is probably less rust resistant than more common alloys, and also can't take a clearcoat without losing some valuable properties? More hearsay: https://www.reddit.com/r/teslamotors/comments/197sivs/tesla_...


They claim to have developed their own alloy.

> According to matmatch.com, “The Cybertruck exoskeleton is made from Tesla’s own stainless steel alloy, referred to as the Ultra-hard 30X Cold-rolled Stainless Steel. While the blend is proprietary, Elon mentioned during the product launch that the exoskeleton material of the vehicle is the same as the SpaceX Starship shell.”

[1] https://www.worldautosteel.org/why-steel/steel-muscle-in-new...


I read whole paragraph as "yeah, cheap"


Good thing the 304L (etc) comprising Starship's shell won't be subjected to repeated heatings. https://app.aws.org/forum/topic_show.pl?tid=7585


> is the same as the SpaceX Starship shell

No wonder it's rusting, they're recycling all the exploded Starship shells.


> Wonder if tesla is using 304, or have cheeped out with 430.

301 according to post #50[1].

[1] https://www.cybertruckownersclub.com/forum/threads/rust-spot...


There are many different stainless alloys. The ones that don't rust make for terrible knifes - it isn't possible to get them sharp. Of course if this is a butter knife you don't need much an edge and so they might be sharp enough.

I wouldn't be surprised if the rust resistant stainless alloys have other properties that are not desireable in a truck.


You can get just about anything decently hard to be sharp, any stainless can be sharpened. I've sharpened Teflon enough to cut paper before. Getting it to stay sharp is the hard part.


>The ones that don't rust make for terrible knifes

LC200N and Vanax are steels that are used on corrosive resistant knives, and they make great blades. Magnacut is a newer steel that also displays very good corrosion resistance and has very good knife qualities.


> I don't know if it's an inclusion in the steel that's rusting, or if the act of rusting creates the pit in the regular steel that's then susceptible to rusting again.

Well, they call it stainless and not stainfree steel for a reason. /s


Yup and as noted elsewhere, there was a previous submission with about 50+ comments on it, which links to this article which includes the photos.

https://www.carsdirect.com/automotive-news/green-technology/...


Thanks for the link, looks like it varies from truck to truck judging by the other comments in that thread.


Tesla should get ahead of it and ship a “rust” finish.


Looks like rail dust to me.


It's just bare, raw stainless steel without even a clearcoat?

Who could possibly think that's a good idea?


I was under the impression that stainless steel didn't rust, albeit obviously depending upon the grade. Like my kitchen sink is made of stainless steel and doesn't have a clearcoat. Has never rusted and won't over decades.

And to be clear, I think the CT is an incredibly ugly monstrosity that is Tesla's jump the shark moment, so I'm not saying this defensively.


Stainless steel does rust and does stain. It is much more resistant to rust or staining than ordinary carbon steel.

Think of it as “stain-resistant” and “rust-resistant”.


Except my sink has not rusted or stained in 20 years I've had it. Surely they could use a particular grade of SS to mitigate?


The most rust-resistant grades of stainless steel have lower tensile strength and hardness, and work-harden in a way that makes forming them a bit more expensive.

For example, your kitchen sink might be made out of 304 or 316 stainless steel - but your kitchen knives are more likely to use 440C which is less corrosion-resistant, but will hold an edge a lot better.

It also helps that you're not whacking road salt into your kitchen sink at 70mph.


Is there a safe speed to whack salt onto my kitchen sink? Most I've done is 55mph and it felt unstable.


If you leave wet steel wool in a stainless-steel sink, the sink will "catch" rust, too.

Regurgitated advice from metalworkers I learned from:

If you're using a grinding wheel or brush to buff stainless, make sure the tool hasn't been used on regular steel or iron, and that the part of the tool that contacts the stainless is itself neither rusting nor rustable, because even a speck of iron will "seed" rust in stainless.


Thanks that's interesting. I've seen this exact thing happen with stainless steel eating utensils (commonly called "silverware" in the US for historical reasons despite being stainless steel). In a storage unit, I found some very rusty spoons and forks that were in a box with other rusty things. The conclusion I left with was "stainless steel can indeed rust" but I didn't know why, so this is nice to know!


If you really want to blow your mind, your "porcelain" bathtub can also rust.

Learned this the hard way when a cat started pissing in the tub. Between that and using bleach for cleaning, the enamel was eroded down to the metal casting. Then, rust.

Advice online will say no, that red shit is calcium and mineral buildup. That mostly happens in toilets. Unless you bought a tub in plastic or fiberglass, it may well be actual rust, especially if it reoccurs very quickly. Treat it accordingly before it drains through your floor.


Roads are among the worst conditions for corrosion. If you left your sink outside where it could be affected by salty sea spray, road salt or calcium chloride, with these chemicals sitting on the metal over time, it would also develop rust spots.

The Doha airport features a stainless steel roof; standard architectural stainless steel would be far too vulnerable to corrosion in this setting. They had to specify a duplex stainless steel with a special finish, and even so it requires regular cleaning and rust removal:

https://www.imoa.info/molybdenum-uses/molybdenum-grade-stain...

"Stainless steel" is only a relative term.


The water in your home isn't as high in mineral content, as present in the atmosphere.

Stainless steel is designed to resist rusting from common minerals in fresh water. Citric acid, for example, is happy to stain your stainless steel.


Any ground water will have more minerals than wain water. For example, the water delivered to my house has 450-550 mg/l TDS. A quick search shows that is about 10x higher than rain water [1].

[1] https://www.chaitanyaproducts.com/blog/rainwater-healthy-com...


My kitchen sink also doesn't get salted during the winter, the roads do. I wonder if someone at Tesla forgot that some areas rely heavily on salt to keep the roads ice free during the winter.


You don't use salt when cooking? :D


The concentration of salt in your cooking equivalent to the salt on the roads would make your food inedible.


It's probably not rainwater that's causing the rust. It's the water from the pavement, which does have higher mineral content, and might have corrosive substances, such as salt.


Rain water - sure. However rain water falls on the road, mixing with any minerals deposited on the road.


Woah! I had no idea they were pumping groundwater into the Capilano Reservoir. Thanks for the heads up


Isn't rainwater slightly more acidic than ground water?


We use rain water extensively in NZ tho

But as others answered - it's likely pitting from other sources, not elements themselves


How often do you clean your sink? How often do you clean your car?


I never clean either ;)


Don't follow the argument, I don't have a car for almost 10 years but when I did I used to clean it every 4-8 weeks, my kitchen's sink gets cleaned every week at least once.


who would have thought that elon of all people would fail to 'let that sink in'?


Your sink isn't exposed to UV light, dust, mud, extreme temperature changes, etc. I don't know either way if any of those would have an effect, but it's not at all a clear analogy between a kitchen sink and an automobile.


Maybe my grill is a better comparison. UV light: check. Dust: check. Extreme temp changes: check, and more than a car to boot. Salt: check, there are giant crystals of kosher salt all over it.

You know what I think is the culprit, there must be fragments of regular steel/iron debris on roads that get kicked up and form rust spots like wet steel wool would. Rust is terribly penetrating and can easily stain SS or even porcelain.

Still, a few rust spots aside, I don't think these cars will be rusting out like a 1980's Civic.


Choosing a different grade of stainless steel may buy you more corrosion resistance but the other properties may suffer (e.g. strength).


Time to invest in Bar Keeper's Best Friend.


Or short companies selling hydrophobic trucks.


That's why it's called stain-less. It stains less. (But still stains.)


I guess that's just in line with "Full Self Driving".

All of yourself needs to do the driving in your stain less vehicle.


It’s called the “No Homers” club, we’re allowed to have one.


Such a great line!


I wonder why this innocuous light-hearted comment in appreciation of someone else's joke is getting downvoted?

I don't think I'll ever understand why people downvote on HN...


People read sarcasm into the comment and/or didn't get the reference? It's a mystery.

Anyway, here's the clip: https://youtube.com/watch?v=W7rSYzbpA8k


It's pointless noise. Twenty other readers likely also laughed to themselves about the line, upvoted and moved on. The commenter will know if their joke was appreciated with upvotes. Nobody needed an extra comment from the peanut gallery.

HN polices noise very hard, because the alternative is half the site is just the first comment thread from reddit that continuously circle jerks the same damn jokes.


If they wrote it "stain-less" then I would have the correct notion.

But the spelling "stainless" makes me think of words such as "peerless".


Yeah, homeless, fearless, childless, hopeless, endless - all mean "without X" not "less of X"


I didn't mean that it "staining less" is the correct formal definition, only that thinking of it as "stain less" rather than "stainless" is a more useful definition to keep in mind, as all steel will stain eventually the right conditions.


Maybe they should call it stain-fewer, since you're gonna get fewer stains but not no stains.


Many "touch less" carwashes operating this way.


> think of it as “stain-resistant”

Actually you can just think of it as was intended: “stain LESS”. As in, not “stain NONE”.


Or maybe even stain-less?


There are dozen of alloys and also many different way to process them. I have no clue what they used, as I did not find any real specification sheet. But it looks more like a purity problem than the "wrong" alloy, but many alloys will rust, in different ways.

I have no experience in such large object as I work on micro mechanic. I would love to have an expert share a more informed comment.


oh yeah, it does. its just pretty stubborn about it. I have the same sink in my shop, and because there are acids and iron dust in play we get spotting all the time.

the main thing you need to do with stainless is 'passivate' it by putting it in an acid solution that removes as much of the iron from the surface layer as you can, leaving just the chromium and other alloyed elements. particularly on any welds you may have made.


New business idea: Mobile "Cybertruck Passivating" Service!

Possible tagline: "An acid a day keeps the cyberrust away"


There are grades of stainless steel and specifying the optimum grade for a specific application is an ordinary engineering problem of cost, performance, availability, and anticipated fabrication methods.

https://www.unifiedalloys.com/blog/stainless-grades-families


Different compositions of stainless steel have different grades of corrosion resistance. Road salt can contribute the corrosion of stainless steel.


Yes, that's how it works with stainless steel. It needs a certain amount of chromium (around 10% by weight) to not rust.


Stainless is fairly reactive. The only reason it can appear to be corrosion resistant is "passivation", a surface treatment. If you pierce the passivated layer on a stainless item, it will promptly corrode.


Well the passivization is corrosion. Stainless steel is covered by rusted chromium, which prevents further rust. If you scratch it, you should get another layer of passivization.

They Cybertruck's problem (oversimplifying here, there's a bit more chemistry going on) is that it has too low of a chromium content (as a cost cutting measure). There isn't enough chromium to protect the underlying steel from the conditions it's being exposed to. Or, to put it another way, the steel is corroding faster than the chromium rust/passivization layer can form.


There are a few types of stainless steel Elon probably chose the cheapest.



You've just linked to a fluff piece on a credit card site, and it doesn't even address the original statement.



Easily discredited.


Of course they developed a proprietary steel and then shipped it for customers to test in production.


I think in this case, SpaceX engineers know more about material science than a rando HN user.


What about Tesla engineers?

How about HN users that took actual Engineering and specialised in material sciences and are familar with the austenitic stainless steel family?

Meh, forget all that - are you stating that the steel cladding on current Cybertrucks is not showing pitting and corrosion despite claims to the contrary?


Stainless steel is corrosion-resistant, not corrosion-immune.


Many kinds of stainless steel alloys are totally immune to corrosion under a normal conditions. For example, everything used in the food industry are a such grade. Some of it doesn't rust even at temperatures much higher than 100degC in a much more corrosive atmosphere, than water vapors.


Do they have mechanical properties and costs that make them acceptable as car parts? No steel is totally immune to corrosion.


What are "normal conditions"? Because for instance plenty of stainless steel alloys are very much not totally immune to the accelerated corrosion caused by saltwater...and think of how many people live and drive beside seas and oceans.


Don't ask me how I know but if something like a fork grows mould on it in a dishwasher then you run the dishwasher it goes rusty in that spot. I've never found out why this is despite seeing it reproduced on several occasions (again, don't ask for details please).


I've seen this without mould too. I've left stainless cutlery in a stainless sink with just a little bit of water, and seen run form between the two.


> I was under the impression that stainless steel didn't rust, albeit obviously depending upon the grade. Like my kitchen sink is made of stainless steel and doesn't have a clearcoat. Has never rusted and won't over decades.

Is your kitchen sink installed outside where it can rain, snow, etc?


Are you thinking a sink doesn't get exposed to water?


To the extent that a truck parked outside does? No, not really. Consider the that a kitchen is typically climate controlled so lower RH means the water left in the sink will evaporate quickly.

It’s not just water either, being outside exposed material to sunlight, dirt, dust, acid rain, temperature extremes, road salt, etc.


A kitchen sink isn't usually exposed to road salt. It's also probably made with a different grade of stainless steel.

(As others have noted, it looks like Tesla intentionally chose a less-resistant alloy for price reasons. This would be consistent with other consumer complaints about their build quality.)


Are you aware that kitchen sinks are typically subject to frequent and prolonged encounters with water and other substances?


A kitchen is a climate controlled space. The water left in a sink evaporates quickly. There is no acid rain or road salt in a kitchen, etc. Being outside is damaging to materials, moreso than just water exposure.


The average kitchen sink sees a far more challenging environment than you seem to believe. My kitchen sink sees acids, bases, salts of all sorts, and just about every manner of abuse. Boiling, freezing, and rapid changes in between.

It has nothing to do with environment. As others have mentioned, most kitchen sinks, like good "silverware", have a higher chromium content. The CT seems to have a low grade SS.

The (in)famous Delorean clearly used a better grade of stainless steel. There were no problems with Deloreans rusting, with people having said vehicles many decades later will zero body rust. That was specifically the #1 noted feature of the car.


> The average kitchen sink sees a far more challenging environment than you seem to believe. My kitchen sink sees acids, bases, salts of all sorts, and just about every manner of abuse. Boiling, freezing, and rapid changes in between.

Does your sink get coated in salt for weeks at a time? In areas where road salt is used, cars certainly do.

Cars parked outside will often still be wet after a nighttime rain, while water in a climate controlled kitchen sink rapidly evaporates. If your kitchen sink is still wet the morning after washing dishes, you’ve got bigger (mold) problems to deal with.

Even 316 ‘marine grade’ stainless will pit and rust, given enough time outside. I’ve seen it plenty, metal NEMA 4X enclosures rated for outdoor use are made from 304/316 SS, and those eventually rust.


Sinks are made from a more corrosion-resistant alloy than the one used on the Cybertruck.


> I was under the impression that stainless steel didn't rust

Nope. "Stainless" steels are just resistant. They're not magically impossible to tarnish, if you want a metal which will not tarnish you need pure (not Jewellery grade) Gold or Platinum.

One thing about your sink: You probably clean it. That's all Tesla advises for these cars. Drove to the store to buy groceries? Now clean your Cybertruck. Took kids to soccer practice? Now clean your Cybertruck. A "weekly" trip to a car wash which might turn out to happen once a month isn't good enough, these vehicles will stain permanently if left.

And that's fine for Elon, he can assign a junior assistant to go wash his Cybertruck. Do you have a junior assistant? No? Then maybe the Cybertruck isn't for you.


> if you want a metal which will not tarnish you need pure (not Jewellery grade) Gold or Platinum

That’s taking things a bit far. These don’t oxidise but there are other metals that won’t corrode (in normal conditions) because they form a protective passive layer like titanium, chromium or aluminium. Stainless steel behaves like that and some grade are almost impossible to corrode under normal conditions. Getting the right steel for the kind of conditions a car would see is not a new problem and we’ve had good solutions for decades. There were stainless steel train carriages in the 1960s, for example. These were pristine after much more than a couple of months and were not washed every other day.

> One thing about your sink: You probably clean it.

The kitchen sink is a good example. It should not rust if you leave water in it for a month, even though a stainless steel knife might get pitted after a couple of times in a dishwasher. The alloys are not the same, and the conditions are different. The knife requires some mechanical properties whilst corrosion resistance is more important for the sink. The number of times you wash your sink does not matter.


All the train cars I can think of were painted, except for some bulk carriers, and usually the bulk carriers I've seen were brown with rust (is that what Cybertruck customers were looking for?) except for the parts covered in graffiti (i.e. paint although not methodically applied). The Cybertruck deliberately isn't painted, presumably this makes it look more "Cyber".

And passenger trains are washed pretty often, it might be as infrequently as once or twice a week (?), but they get washed, that's why they have automated train washing, the train driver just drives through at a slow pace and the machine does the work.

I live next to an ocean, I reckon if "We can use just a steel grade which avoids corrosion" was even an option some the vessels here would just be made of that steel, instead of painted, and yet every single metal vessel I've seen here (the sailing boats and speedboats are often fibreglass) was painted. So if the right grade of steel exists apparently you can't use it to make boats.


Amtrak have made pretty heavy use of bare stainless, no? Amfleet, Superliner, Viewliner, etc.

I don't know how frequently they'd have been washed, though. Probably a lot more often than the average truck.


> All the train cars I can think of were painted, except for some bulk carriers

Off the top of the net, some examples from Canada:

https://railfan.com/wp-content/uploads/2015/06/dec2012-01.jp...

https://www.progressiverailroading.com/resources/editorial/2...

The US:

https://www.american-rails.com/images/x9176518237799761uui91...

https://wearemodeshift.org/wp-content/uploads/2015/10/DI-032...

Or France:

https://www.patrimoine-ferroviaire.fr/wp-content/uploads/snc...

> usually the bulk carriers I've seen were brown with rust

Most of the time it’s dust but yes, eventually they rust. It’s also most of the time not stainless steel, because it does not have the right mechanical properties and would be way too expensive for no good reason, considering that they are coated and painted anyway. They also take insane amounts of abuse and it takes decades and a complete lack of maintenance for rust to appear. There really is absolutely no excuse for this in a months-old cars, this is not a case of “duh, everything corrodes”.

> The Cybertruck deliberately isn't painted, presumably this makes it look more "Cyber".

Which is doubly stupid because there are plenty of surface coatings that would give the same look or something equally sci-fi. But then Elon does not know a thing about materials, so it’s not surprising.

> And passenger trains are washed pretty often, it might be as infrequently as once or twice a week (?), but they get washed, that's why they have automated train washing, the train driver just drives through at a slow pace and the machine does the work.

I guarantee you that they do not do it once a week, at least not in most of the world. You can tell by the layers of dust that accumulate.

> live next to an ocean, I reckon if "We can use just a steel grade which avoids corrosion" was even an option some the vessels here would just be made of that steel, instead of painted, and yet every single metal vessel I've seen here (the sailing boats and speedboats are often fibreglass) was painted.

Because, as I said, stainless steel can have fantastic corrosion resistance, but terrible properties otherwise. A ship’s hull needs strong structural integrity, which a sheet of stainless steel is not going to provide. It also needs to be reasonably cheap, which, again, is not the strong suit of high quality stainless steel.

So instead a better alloy is used, and protection is provided by coatings. Just like in cars that were not designed by a maniac.

> So if the right grade of steel exists apparently you can't use it to make boats.

That’s exactly the point. But we don’t use them for ships for other reason than “corrosion resistance is a myth”. If they wanted to use a decent stainless steel in the cybertruck, they could have done it. But they did not, so they made compromises, which results in panels that are too stiff to be adjusted properly, huge gaps, and bad durability.


The Chicago Transit Authority had a number of stainless steel railcars built by the Budd Company. Never saw any rust on those.

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/2600-series_(CTA)


>> All the train cars I can think of were painted, except for some bulk carriers > some examples from Canada:

This is called primer, and is a gray paint layer.


Primer is hygroscopic and would not normally be exposed to the elements.


> I was under the impression that stainless steel didn't rust

They call it stainless (as in, fewer stains) and not stainfree steel for a reason. /s


Put a scratch in your sink. It'll rust.


Proper stainless steal doesn't rust. It's not even coated.

Source: Worked as a mechanical engineer designing industrial meat grinders and cutters. Folks throw in bones, meat, ice, salt and then heat it and grind it to a pulp but it never rusts.


Thank you for bringing your experience to the thread!

How many "improper" varieties of stainless steel are there? Are the fully stainless steels that will not rust under any circumstances exceptionally expensive compared to their less-than-ideal counterparts?

I would assume given my experience with "stainless" steel sinks must mean they're less than ideal quality which is not a shocking surprise.


Depends on the stainless alloy used. Meat grinders would be designed to stand up to salt - they use 304 or 316. Cybertruck's aren't, because they use a 301, which is less corrosion resistant. Meanwhile, 316 will gladly rust if put in a strong enough salt solution for long enough.


316L is better than all the above, and you can weld it. Also more expensive.

I'd think for car body panels you'd want n50 or n60, but those are marine alloys, and they're spendy.

It could also be that the material they're using isn't passivated well, in which case the fix is fairly simple (barkeepers friend and a buff wheel).


Why would a car body not be designed to stand up to salt? You know they put that stuff on roads right? Driving it in winter in much of these here United States (let alone Canada) is equivalent to bathing it in a saline solution and whipping salt nuggets at it. That would be quite the oversight.


All cars are "designed to stand up to salt", including the cybertruck, just in different ways.

Most auto manufacturers use mild steels which are highly susceptible to rust, but mitigate rust by using various types of coatings. This has significant drawbacks because coatings can be compromised by wear, causing the underlying steel to fail to corrosion.

As my engineering professor always said, if you're willing to spend a few million dollars on a car, you can get one that will last a lifetime!


>including the cybertruck

Apparently not, though - it's obviously rusting


Yes, including the cybertruck. Tesla chose 301 stainless to mitigate rust. It is not a perfect choice. Neither are coatings on mild steel. All cars are designed to resist corrosion but can and will under the right (wrong?) circumstances. There is no perfect material that does everything. All have pros-and-cons.


I believe it's clearly unacceptable for a car to visibly rust within a year of production. That would never happen with a regular car.


It does happen with other cars. At my last job, the guy in the cubical next to me had a brand new car that had rust issues fixed under warranty. And traditional automakers don't warranty rust until the hole goes entirely through the body panel (i.e. rust perforation).

Drive most steel bodied cars behind a salt truck in the rust belt and you'll often get small cosmetic rust spots: https://www.reddit.com/r/GrandCherokee/comments/vboker/shoul...

Remember, most traditional automakers are using steel with little to no corrosion resistance at all, and are relying on fragile coatings to do the work instead. This is not without its own drawbacks.

You might not hear much about these types of issues, because cosmetic issues with traditional brands normally don't make the news, but recalls due to safety concerns do: https://www.fox9.com/news/driving-in-the-salt-belt-millions-...

TL;DR: steel cars corrode.


I think most body panels have been hot-dip galvanized electroplated then painted since the 80s instead of just exposed without even a clear coat. That should last at least 5-10 years even in the worst North American conditions before you see rust. Unless you imported yourself something low-end originally destined for India or China.

The car you linked to on reddit was a 2018 Grand Cherokee, which is ~7 years old now (5 years old when posted), so it would be expected -- and something you can just touch up. Note that in the comments they suggested it might even be covered under the new-vehicle limited warranty had it occurred in the first 3 years. Which makes sense, I'd consider that to be a material defect within that period of the NVLW.

Note that Tesla will sell you a cybertruck clear coat paint job for $5000. Probably a good investment.


Ever watched Fargo[0]? If not, don't forget your Truecoat.

[0] https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=B2LLB9CGfLs


That's true, no other car company would build a car body that can't stand up to normal outdoor conditions. Perhaps there is a reason every other car in the world is painted...


> Proper stainless steal doesn't rust. It's not even coated.

No. Stainless steel comes in many varieties and levels of corrosion resistance. In order to get increased corrosion resistance you trade other mechanical properties. Every choice of steel balances the level of corrosion resistance with the tradeoffs of loss of other properties.

There is no truly corrosion proof steel, just various grades of resistance.


My stainless steel sink is like all scratches. Still no rust.


If you kept the truck in your kitchen it probably wouldn’t rust, but if you scratched your dishwasher and subjected it to water and salt I bet it would.


Do you think that sinks and dishwashers don’t get exposed to salt, water and other things all the time?


To the extent that cars do on the road no not at all. A dishwasher is not getting hit with gravel at 60mph and splashed with mud.


But it is being exposed to harsh cleaning agents all the time. The wear might be different, but let’s not pretend they’re sitting there in the middle of a kitchen unused.

Your claim was also, explicitly:

> but if you scratched your dishwasher and subjected it to water and salt I bet it would.

That is literally what happens every day. All the time.


You win you win you win


Dishwashers work by spraying high pressure jets of water filled with abrasives. Water which is usually also full of organic compounds of many varieties.

I'd say the conditions are not dissimilar.


Someone trying to show how bold and revolutionary their vision is, unwilling to hear the word "no." I'll give you one guess.


I wonder if he's a No Rust absolutist, as well.


DeLoreans were raw stainless without a clearcoat. I wonder if they suffered from rust too. Even if they didn't, the Cybertruck is at least nominally supposed to be a "tough" "work vehicle" "man" type thing, not a sports car (although I'm sure many will have an easier life than a DeLorean).


> DeLoreans were raw stainless without a clearcoat. I wonder if they suffered from rust too.

Well, they were designed to handle a lot of snow.


Ah, the 80's!


There are additional treatments you can apply to stainless steel to make it more resistant to rusting. There's the passivation process that forms a very corrosion resistant (nearly impervious) film on the surface by depleting the iron in the top layers. It's expensive to do well though and the best methods produce some fairly toxic byproducts because it's done with nitric acid to get the best results.


Nitric acid is just faster, the passivation layer isn't better than you get with plain old citrc acid.

Passivation isn't really enough for a car though, they basically get sand blasted while driving on the road, and every little pit is an area where the material would have to repassivate without rusting. SS301 isn't nearly as good at that game as some other alloys.


Nobody's DeLorean ran long enough to discover if it would rust.


From the bolted quote in the article: "I know I heard the story of never take out your Delorean in the rain but I just never read anything about rust and Cybertrucks."


Someone maximizing profit.


Are you making the assumption this will be a universal problem rather than being a manufacturing defect or specific to some types of environments?


The assertion is that raw untreated stainless is a bad idea for a car, so yes.


My silverware?


Way too cutting edge.


Musk. He makes every design and engineering decision. (To hear him talk, you would think this, at least.)


Good quality stainless steel doesnt rust... it's a great idea. I wish my car didn't need paint...


Just call it a "patina" "further enhancing the natural look".

https://support.apple.com/en-us/HT204172

> The leather iPhone case is made from natural leather. Its appearance will change as you use it. It might acquire a patina and might change color due to the oils from your skin and direct sunlight, further enhancing the natural look.

(I have one. Most of my "patina" is bits peeling off; I regret the purchase.)


Not to blindly defend Apple here (it sounds like the case is shoddy), but I think there's a distinction here: they're trying to preempt people returning the case because of a normal leather patina, not because it's falling apart.


Not to blindly defame Apple, but this sounds exactly like the kind of spin they would use to paper over a shoddy product.


Leather Patina being desirable is a centuries long tradition and marker of authenticity.

If we had a centuries long expectation of rust being desirable, then Tesla would have a point


There's patina, and there's peeling. Tesla seems to be aiming for the latter, while calling it the former.


Yeah, the latest Apple leather cases are thinly-veneered crap. The cases used to be great, and would actually develop a patina. The current generation is as described: chunks just fall off.


I do not believe there _are_ "latest Apple leather cases". Apple does not make leather cases anymore as of last year.


correct. the previous two generations of leather cases were the cheapest leather i've ever seen for iPhones outside or PPU leather. The cases before that were much higher quality.


Well, leather is leather. Of course there will be changes in its' appearance over time. What did you expect?


I did not expect half of the leather to peel off.


That is not the same thing as patina, which is a real but different thing.


Are you sure? Apple failed to make any distinction between the two.


I've owned several. (and am sad I'll never buy another)

Aside from hard drops, I've never had that experience. My current one has worn down a bit where my finger usually rests on the back, but the leather is fully intact.

Any chance you may have gotten ahold of a fake one? I've seen several online which have very convincing packaging, like this eBay listing:

https://www.ebay.com/itm/355320108334


> Any chance you may have gotten ahold of a fake one?

Not unless store.apple.com got MITMed. Someone else on the thread says they changed materials at some point; maybe you have one of the originals?


My current one is from the last year they made them, for the 14 Pro Max.


None of this has anything to do with the Tesla Cybertruck.


I fully expect Tesla to similarly talk about how the Cybertruck will acquire a patina and that such a thing is entirely expected.


Not all leather is equal. Sounds like Apple is using cheap split grain or bonded leather.

https://www.popovleather.com/blogs/from-the-workshop/the-ult...


I thought your link was going to be about the metal Apple Card, which could be discolored by denim or leather. https://www.bbc.com/news/technology-49435687


On the other hand, I have a cheap Apexel leather-backed case for my old iPhone X.

Black plastic (polyurethane, maybe?), metal top panel across the top the height of the camera bulge, and a padded red leather back.

I bought it used on eBay (because I needed a case with a 17mm accessory lens mount to quickly test a lens). It arrived with a scratch, and then over the course of my owning it began to resemble more and more a lovely beaten up leather sofa.

I have never owned a phone case even half as good, and were it not for MagSafe I'd be hunting one down for my current 12. It's superbly comfortable to hold, and the way it shows wear is unlike anything else I've seen. Super cool.


The microweave case I got with the 15 Pro is also of poor quality. Started peeling off within a month. Also, it’s just a poor design. My skin oil and other stuff gets caught in the fabric. So I need to scrub it periodically.


Just call it "Lenny Kravitz Edition" and charge double?

https://lavidaleica.com/content/lenny-kravitz-edition-leica-...


These cases are bad. It does not mean that leather objects developing patina is bullshit. Same for metals. Patina is actually something that can be desirable.


I see a lot of people talking about stainless here without listing the common alloy types:

304 Stainless Steel: Composition: 18% Chromium, 8% Nickel.

  Properties: Excellent corrosion resistance, good formability, non-magnetic (may become slightly magnetic after cold working).

  Common Uses: Kitchen equipment, food processing equipment, architectural trim, and general hardware.
316 Stainless Steel: Composition: 16% Chromium, 10% Nickel, 2% Molybdenum.

  Properties: Superior corrosion resistance to 304 in harsh environments, excellent formability, non-magnetic.

  Common Uses: Chemical processing equipment, medical devices, marine applications, and any environment where greater corrosion resistance is required.
430 Stainless Steel: Composition: Approximately 17% Chromium, no Nickel.

  Properties: Good corrosion resistance, strong magnetism, lower cost than 300 series.

  Common Uses: Domestic appliances, automotive trim, and interior architectural features.
Tesla says they use some proprietary type thats in the 301 series.

https://www.sae.org/news/2020/06/tesla-cybertruck-stainless-...


What is the cheaper alternative for 316 in marine applications?

Specially long term floating objects such as buoys, with minimal physical contacts, and a painting/maintenance schedule is possible


They're likely using 301, which won't stand up to free chloride ions well.

304 or 316L would be better, n50 or n60 would be best, but you've just doubled the cost of the panels...


Previous discussion (50 votes, 59 comments):

https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=39354342


I know from personal experience that some types of stainless steel will develop rust spots under certain circumstances - I have some stainless steel table knives that will rust in the dishwasher, and a couple of stainless steel soap dispensers that rusted through entirely, so this doesn't surprise me a lot.

The real question I have is, is this thing actually supposed to be a serious vehicle that you can drive around and keep outside and expect it not to rust/fall apart/whatever? It doesn't seem to be very well-designed, I just sort of assumed it was a meme product like the Boring Company flamethrower that they were selling a few years back. Something that you buy because you have a lot of disposable money and want to show other people you're in on the joke, that's not supposed to really be used for whatever thing it ostensibly does. It seems like if it was supposed to be a real truck, it would be, well, good.


The CyberTruck is what a person who has never done real work with a truck imagines a truck should be.

Trying to pick up exactly one standard-size bag of cement mix out of the bed from the side would have told them that their design was flawed.


The vast majority of trucks are used as trucks about as often as my hatchback is.


This is also true.


Pay a visit to the cybertruck subreddit - it’ll explain a lot


They poured a lot of engineering resources in it. And it has some interesting stuff. But, yes, I am not sure how they expected this to be a wide success.


People who still buy Tesla are honestly.. I’m not even going to say it. But you know. Unless you’ve drank the kool aid.

And I speak as someone who had a Tesla since 2018.


I bought a Tesla in 2019.

I love it. It's a great car.

I would not buy a Tesla today. I used to dream about the Roadster 2.0, but I don't like the direction they've gone in design of the car. I'm hoping the Corvette EV impresses, because that's likely going to be my next car.


Silly people, taking their fancy trucks outdoors


CanyonaroooooooooooO!


Reminds me a lot more of "The Homer": https://simpsons.fandom.com/wiki/The_Homer


You mean the rust-covered Truck, endorsed by a Clown?


Ha, nice. Might as well rattle can the whole thing with some Rustoleum Flat Black. Keep it on hand for scratches.

I do this for the rock sliders on my Tacoma.


Not gonna lie, a Corten steel Cybertruck would be very cool.


Yeah rust trails all over the windows would be a great feature! Who needs transparent windows after all?


Now I want a Cybertruck made of Damascus steel.


I agree with you insofar as I don't think it would look worse than a brand new Cybertruck, but that's not saying much.


True... it would have a real "Star Wars" look to it.


Oil the surface of the truck occasionally like the ways on a milling machine.


Won't the oil seep into plastic parts and damage them? How about the glass getting greasy? My mill gets fairly icky just from metal and wood chips, I don't want to imagine what street goo + oil would be like.


I always forget the /s.

Anyway the way to fuck up stainless steel is to rub some non stainless steel on it which breaks down the passivation layer. This is why you can buy stainless tools (eg Wiha makes driver bits in stainless)to use on fasteners so they won't be contaminated.

A new way to deface a cyber truck would probably be to find a way to invisibly contaminate its surface with regular steel so it doesn't show up until it begins to rust in the pattern you've chosen for your defacement.

The posted probablem may just be little ferrous particles of road grime settling onto the surface and breaking the passivation layer.

I wonder if DeLoreans suffer from this problem too?


> I always forget the /s.

Derp :)

> A new way to deface a cyber truck would probably be to find a way to invisibly contaminate its surface with regular steel so it doesn't show up until it begins to rust in the pattern you've chosen for your defacement.

Tyre Extinguishers might be interested.


Likely environmental contamination - iron in the environment or more likely contamination from other cars at the car wash. https://www.stainlessfoundry.com/metallurgy/knowledgebase/ir...


The most important question is how common this is and how severe the average case is. If it only affects one car in 20 then the main effect will be bad PR for Tesla rather than a noticeable diminishment of owner enjoyment.

I suspect its fairly rare tbh, it being common would likely have been raised years ago and a fix (including coating) implemented.


It was pretty openly touted as coat-less stainless steel from the announcement. Their hubris would have never allowed them to add a clear coat.

They still haven’t added rain sensors or proper blind spot monitors because of hubris, and those have been common complaints for years. What makes you believe this would be different?


Well I guess we'll find out soon enough as we see them on the road and can have a look ourselves.

I'd be happy to take a bet on this if we can nail down the specifics.


What even is this answer? People are complaining about it right now. The owner’s manual explicitly states it’s a potential issue. By all accounts this is a known and actively occurring problem.

What, exactly, is there to “find out soon enough”?


As I said above, frequency.

The owner's manual for every car says this is a potential issue. E.g. https://www.fordservicecontent.com/Ford_Content/vdirsnet/Own...

And yet most cars you see on the road look okay. Unless this is substantially more common than others cars this could be much ado about nothing.


Per TFA, the official maintenance documentation says

"To prevent damage to the exterior, immediately remove corrosive substances (such as grease, oil, bird droppings, tree resin, dead insects, tar spots, road salt, industrial fallout, etc.)."

which inidcates that it is a known concern. Essentially nobody who uses CT as an actual vehicle is going immediately remove every little substance that gets on it.

Assuming that Tesla would never let a common issue make it into production seems counter to basically the entire history of the company.


From what I can see that's more or less standard for cars.

E.g. Ford F150's user manual says: "Immediately remove fuel spillages, additive residuals, bird droppings, insect deposits and road tar."

https://www.fordservicecontent.com/Ford_Content/vdirsnet/Own...


This is a line that is not only included on all other (non-stainless-steel) Tesla vehicles, but all other brands of vehicles too.

I'm no Cybertruck fan, but people repeating this particular line like it's "proof they knew!!" is just plain incorrect.


The company that went for cheaper non-automotive touchscreens and then when they started failing under warranty made everyone's car run the air-conditioner to prevent them from delaminating at huge energy cost to the consumers.


> If it only affects one car in 20

If 5% of any given Toyota model started rusting like that it'd be a really big deal.


:mild shock:

Can't wait to see what one of these screen doored submarines looks like after two years of Minnesota winters.


I have lots of SS stuff that has rust spots. I suppose that there are inclusions of "not SS" included in the metal.

Steel alloys are not, in general, homogeneous. They are often composed of a microscopic mixture of different materials.


There's different grades of SS containing different amounts of things like chromium and molybdenum for corrosion resistance, though I'd argue the "stainless" aspect is basically bullshit for SS items that rust while adhering to their intended use. I have a few large stainless steel kettles that I've done some wacky things with, and neither has any detectable amount of corrosion after years of abuse. Not even anything like the relatively minor corrosion spots seen in the photos.

For a SS electric truck that's marketed as being not only rugged but "badass", it's embarrassing that we're already hearing about rust. It seems L. Ron Musk decided to sell a half-assed product so critics can't as easily point to it as a total failure.


Generally I would think of stainless steel as “stain-resistant”, not “stainproof”.

I used stainless steel equipment in the darkroom and I always saw some amount of staining or corrosion. It will even rust, under certain conditions.


That’s the right way to think about it - it comes in different grades based on the expected level of exposure to things like strong acids or bases but it’s not magic. You can especially see this in appliances where stainless steel was marketed as a premium product but the cheaper lines (or cheaply-made / expensively-marketed) are much less durable than the painted metal they used to use.


Darkroom chemicals versus natural environment? (Though maybe it's pollution or trace elements in organic materials causing the rust / pitting on the CT?).


Darkroom chemicals have varying pH, both acid and alkaline, there’s various salts involved, and there’s a decent amount of metal-on-metal contact in development tanks (you load the film onto a metal reel, and the metal reel goes into a metal tank, and they rub against each other).


Fair, 90% of my darkroom experience was a stat cam and we used plastic tubs and rubber(ized?) rollers. They always stained but since I wasn't using metal...


Stainless steel rusts just fine on its own, though.


Patina cybertruck coming soon


A rat-rod style Patina Cybertruck would be awesome.

How is the Cybertruck built, monocoque/unibody fully patina'd

Here is what FOOCUS thinks of that idea: https://i.imgur.com/gIe5IH0.jpg https://i.imgur.com/vFbVBfd.jpg


Only a genius could invent a stainless truck that immediately rust.


Just cover all the metal parts with a few lames of polished granite. The car design will gladly benefit of it.

Or maybe glue a fine layer of your best stainless steel each few years.


As someone with a top of the range first release Model Y - stay away from the first three years of Tesla production models.

The build quality of Tesla is abysmal.


Hate to say it's a user error not following the manual.

https://www.cybertruckownersclub.com/forum/threads/cybertruc...


Hate to say it, but it's a terrible solution. To keep your INDESTRUCTIBLE WORK TRUCK from corrosion in less than 6 months of ownership you have to clean it immediately if it even touches the wild and unrecommended environment of the OUTSIDE.

It is bad user ownership if its expected and advertised as such, chefs knives are sold as fragile and requiring regular maintenance. Tesla advertises this as bullet proof, amphibian, workhorse, f150 breakfast eater jesus truck.


Stainless steel is a self-protecting metal no? Washing it with dishsoap would be shortsighted.

There's also a absolute ton of stainless alloys, no idea which one they selected for the exterior panels.

Curious if they'll survive Colorado winters with the salt.


>There's also a absolute ton of stainless alloys, no idea which one they selected for the exterior panels.

301, a less expensive option with very poor corrosion resistance compared to other stainless steels! 304, which is more corrosion resistant, is used for unpainted train cars, and those aren't even exposed to road salt!


What's your source on it being 301 stainless? All I could find was "30X" – which could be anything.


https://www.sae.org/news/2020/06/tesla-cybertruck-stainless-...

From the Society of Automotive Engineers article: "'Tesla’s strategy with this truck is very interesting," observed Dr. David Matlock, professor emeritus at the Colorado School of Mines’ Advanced Steel Processing and Products Research Center. Reviewing Musk’s public comments on Cybertruck online, Matlock surmises that the material is 'very likely a modified version of the lean-alloyed austenitic 301 alloy.'"

Two other things line up for me: the rate of rust is right and I think if they were using 304 they'd want to advertise it as 304, not 30X.


I don't think we should say "it's 301" based on the "surmising" of a 3rd party who didn't look at the steel itself but rather "reviewed musk's public comments".

He could very well be right, but that is definitely speculation rather than fact.


Well I haven't done the depth of research he has, but I believe a key piece of evidence is that in the initial Cybertruck announcement Musk said the Cybertruck uses the same steel as Starship. At that time, Starship prototypes were using 301.


If it was the best grade of 30X steel, do you think the would advertise it as 30X?

C'mon.


Colorado doesn't salt the roads (for the most part anyway). They use de-icer, sand, and gravel.


Magnesium Chloride is used in most parts of Colorado. It's absolutely terrible for your car.


Beet Juice is the best de-icer. Its just expensive.

-

Beet juice is better because it doesnt kill the FN trees + flora...

Source, grew up in Lake Tahoe - Salting the roads killed the ice AND the trees on the side of the road.

Also, my grandfather and great grandfather on my stepdads side were beet farmers in Idaho.... and yes - beet juice is WAY better for the environment, but you have to do all that farming first. Then Juicing, then trucking then....


That’s the first time I’ve ever heard anybody say that. Places use beet juice because it’s cheaper than calcium chloride and it works terribly.


You should see this, this is a really fn experience with AI on topic with our thread:

https://g.co/gemini/share/15dbc36c434a



"salt" used colloquially as "de-icer", but MgCL is also "a salt" scientifically speaking.


De-icer is basically salt.


To the source, batman!

https://www.codot.gov/travel/winter-driving/snow-removal-and...

> CDOT uses a variety of products to treat Colorado highways during a winter storm. All snow removal products contain salt with added corrosion inhibitors used to prevent or remove the buildup of ice and snow on roads and minimize the impact on vehicles.

----

> CDOT makes an anti-icing brine mix in-house at a rate of 42 cents per gallon. This product is applied hours before a snowstorm or ice storm and will appear as white stripes on the roadway once dry.

> Unlike other anti-icing products used throughout the country, CDOT's brine mix contains a corrosion inhibitor, which helps prevent damage on both vehicles and infrastructure. Once snow begins to fall, or the temperature drops below freezing, crews will stop using the anti-icer and switch over to de-icers.

----

> Solid de-icers are used for ant-icing and de-icing on roadways during winter weather conditions. CDOT uses two types of solid de-icers:

> Ice slicer — made of granular salt and magnesium chloride.

> Sand or sand/salt mixture — mainly used in high elevations and the eastern plains where more extreme cold temperatures exist, and more traction is needed.


Not always.

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Deicing

We use the glycols on aircraft and some electron equipment


Yes, but not on roads…


I'm as ready as the next person to bash Tesla, but "Owners" is really "Owner".

There's only one person that posted pics in the whole thread that has lasted several days.


I'm curious. Do you think it's just limited to one person or does it seem to match the over-promise, under-deliver that Telsa has become known for?


it's a feature, not a bug. Looks more rugged and manly...


It's an iPhone: beautiful (eye of the beholder and all that) when new, but everyone will know you need to wrap it and cover it up for regular daily use.


I’m careful with my iPhones (which mostly means not throwing them around and setting them face down on flat surfaces) and have never put them in cases. No problem.


> beautiful

I get the design intent but, like with SUVs (and unlike iPhone), there is lacks of proportion. So end result is lipstick on a pig.


In the marine industry, 316 is standard.


How did the delorean handle this?


By driving the company that made it into bankrupty within two years?


Similarly (poorly), although the DeLorean user manual also recommended using gasoline to remove stains from panels.


Heh, thought this was going to be about a Rust ecosystem for programming trucks.




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