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No one reads Greg Egan for the character building or any of that other literary bullshit.

This is the novel that introduces the idea that a simulation universe need not have another universe simulating it. Hell, it's the only novel that has that idea. There is more insight here than we could extract from a thousand other authors, philosophers, and thinkers. But who cares, the characters were sort of cardboard and he has the whole r/menwritingwomen thing going on.




Neal Stephensons Anathem is also based on these same ideas- specifically the concepts of timeless physics, and the idea that mathematical and physical existence are identical.


Thanks. I'll put that one on my reading list. Haven't read but one of his before.


Anathem is, I think, Stephenson's best book. Definitely worth checking out.


'The Diamond Age' is my favorite, but perhaps because it's one of the rare Stephenson's that sticks the landing. Anathem is amazing, and worth reading just for the parable of the fly-worm-bat...


The Diamond Age is my next-favorite after Anathem. Both are excellent books.


read the two, had not connected the dots. Thanks!


I also recommend the non-fiction physics book “The End of Time” by Julian Barbour. It explains these ideas directly, and inspired Stephenson to write Anathem.

Weirdly, I happened to be reading all 3 of these around the same time, not initially realizing they were connected.


I justs finished reading the book and the idea that a simulation universe need not have another universe simulating it indeed baffled me. How do you make sense of that? I was disappointed there wasn't a clearer motivation for it.


(spoiler warning for others!)

Durham's "dust theory" is basically that every possible universe is simulated an infinite number of times across space and time within our universe as Boltzmann brains (he doesn't call them this but his idea of random bits of dust randomly computing things is equivalent), so actually running a simulation containing mind uploads on a computer ourselves is unnecessary to allow consciousness to exist within the simulation.

Durham describes the theory with a few more steps, like his idea of "launching" which I can't help but think Maria is correct in calling unnecessary. I think the story is trying to communicate that Durham's theory is subtly wrong or incomplete, especially when the surprising event happens at the end. I think the explanation for the surprising event at the end is (heavier spoilers ahead!) that there's a mix of Boltzmann brains running two different versions of Permutation City (one where Permutation City and the A-life universe are artificial simulations with arbitrary complicated physics and starting states exactly as we saw them be designed within the story, and one where the A-life universe is natural with a simple unified underlying physics and starting state and Permutation City is an artificial simulation/construct within it with a complicated starting state) which have been running in parallel and producing equivalent conscious experience, but by the end of the story, the latter version of Permutation City is simpler and therefore simulated in proportionally more Boltzmann brains than the first version. The latter version exists more, so when the conscious experiences of these two versions of Permutation City finally diverge, the story follows the latter version.

(I'm pretty confident in this reading of it. The story makes a regular point in talking about the complexity of the artificial simulations containing mind uploads and how much they're unlike the simple unified physics of our world. The point is brought up in a way as if the author or characters expect it to have significance; the surprising event at the end of the story is this point's significance finally being seen.)


> How do you make sense of that?

Chew on it for awhile. It's worth it. The explanation provided was sparse, but sufficient to justify.


By more insight do you mean pure speculation? I could say Liu Cixin has more insight than a thousand other minds with his Dark Forest and dimensionality, but again it's all speculative fiction.

Also, some people actually like well-written characters. I know it sounds strange.




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