I've been wearing AVP extensively these past few days, experimenting with using it for all kinds of things. As of now, I don't find it more efficient or seamless at doing much of anything.
1. There is no window management whatsoever. It would be great if I could stick apps to each other, or tile them in a frame, but I can't do that. I also can't stack windows—if I put one window behind another, the only way to access it is to move the front window out of the way, or to close it. Kind of ridiculous, because I'm pretty sure that problem was already solved in the early 80s, if not ealier.
2. The field of view is really narrow. I have a 32:9 curved monitor, and I can easily look at the "side" apps by tilting my head just a few degrees, with my eyes doing the rest of the work. AVP demands tilting your head much more in either direction to see the window content, making it much harder to momentarily glance at.
3. I've had awful luck with the MacBook screen projection. Others may not have this issue. After a couple minutes of using it, it begins to heavily stutter to the point of being unusable. The keyboard handoff randomly disconnects. And AVP doesn't yet support bluetooth mice, only trackpads (either the MacBook's built-in trackpad, or a Magic Trackpad).
At least for normal desk work, AVP does not improve speed or efficiency in any way—it does the opposite. Hell, when I'm projecting my MacBook screen, I have to resist the temptation to just use desktop apps for everything, because they're so much faster and easier to use than the floating visionOS/iPadOS apps.
It's the iPad all over again. If you're a seasoned PC power user, using AVP will only hurt your efficiency in the same way that it would to try offloading some of your work to an iPad.
With that said, it does make certain things more enjoyable. Apple clearly didn't make this device as a solution to existing problems. The point is that it's a new relationship that we get to have with technology, which will possibly change the way we want to use technology.
But for real, Apple hasn't launched a first-gen product this limited in use since the original iPhone. It has a long way to go before it actually starts making digital life more efficient, except for some highly specialized use cases.
FYI, Immersed is planning on releasing their app for visionOS. According to their employees on Discord, they're expecting that to happen around the end of February.
Immersed is by far the best "virtual desktop" app I've ever used, so I expect it will solve most or all of the issues with Apple's implementation at launch. I'm guessing Apple will catch up eventually, but for now, I'd watch Immersed.
> But for real, Apple hasn't launched a first-gen product this limited in use since the original iPhone.
That's... oddly encouraging to hear.
I'm 100% seeing this as a chance to get in on the early days of a new market, approximately of the same scope as the launch of the iPhone.
>Immersed is by far the best "virtual desktop" app I've ever used
I'll second that. I have a Quest Pro and I really like Immersed a lot. I wish my headset were more comfortable so I could work in that environment more. It's really enjoyable from a software perspective. The hardware on the Quest Pro just isn't there yet.
Which has a comparable (in fact slightly higher) resolution to the vision pro for only $999 which is impressive. Of course it remains too be seen how it will perform in real life. Also it's really intended just for work, not movies etc.
> Also first gen iPad was basically slow as a crippled sloth. It was quickly abandoned by both consumers and Apple
And it had this bulging back so it wouldn't lie still on a table. It was like a bobblehead. It was a really weird design.
The iPad 2 and all further iPads fixed that. And they were all supported for much longer too, yes. It was really a weird 1st gen product.
The same with the iPhone now that I think of it, with its horribly slow 2G and annoyingly recessed headphone jack. Again fixed on the second model.
Oh and the first gen MacBook that had only 1 (deeply recessed) usb port and this huge clamshell case that looked like a ladies handbag if you carried it by its handle. Cool yes but practical no. And the round mouse so you couldn't feel which way was up. Seriously, sometimes I wonder if someone actually tried to use this stuff before it was shipped out the door XD
I had both the iPad 1 and iPhone 1 though and it was cool to be an early adopter. But for the vision pro lol no, out of my price range.
> I have a 32:9 curved monitor, and I can easily look at the "side" apps by tilting my head just a few degrees, with my eyes doing the rest of the work.
I have one of these at work, and I really, really hate it precisely because I can't keep the whole thing in my field of view at once. I can't even imagine trying to work if that effect is even worse.
I struggle to use multiple monitors for this reason. I see my colleagues on multiple monitors constantly swiveling their neck, isn't that uncomfortable? Instead, I use a 4k monitor and tiling window managers like i3 or swaywm that lets me have unlimited desktops that I can instantly switch between with a keystroke.
I had the same experience with mine. To make matters worse the vertical resolution was lower than a typical 4k display, so it felt like more work for less information density.
I went to a lg ultra wide "5k2k" and it was so much better. The newer curved version is fantastic as well, it feels like my endgame work display.
Turning your head ~90 degrees to the left just to be able to see Slack(or any other windows) is for me an productivity nerf, not a boost. What's wrong with Alt/Option - Tab instead?
In my life I experimented with 3 monitors, 2 monitors, one monitor, ultra widescreens, square aspect ratio displays, and a mix of several of those, etc. and I find the best productivity setup is when I have everything centered in my narrow/focused field of view, regardless of how many displays there are or what their aspect ratio is.
If I have too many or too wide displays, needing me to turn my head/neck to the side to see what's on them, it's just useless real estate and extra shit I have to manage and organize, wasting my brain power and concentration on managing the multi-monitor setup instead of on work.
FWIW, currently I have a single 32 inch(27 would work too) 4k display straight in front of me, and switching workspaces via Meta Key + Scroll wheel is way more desk-real-estate, monetarily and energy eficient and more ergonomic than moving my neck to another display on the side that's just sitting there displaying a picture that nobody's looking at 90% of the time.
But in a past job 12+ years ago, I loved having the two work-provided Philips 20 inch 4:3 1600x1200 IPS displays right in front of me. One of those in landscape with the IDE, the other rotated in portrait for the browser/documentation. That was peak DPI, windowing and ergonomics before 16:9 "HD" displays ruined vertical real estate and productivity with their "cinema" TV aspect ratio. Shame you can't get cheap monitors like those anymore in good condition(their CCFL lamps dimmed over time by now). Also, R.I.P. Philips display panels.
Anyway, back on topic, this video feels like justifying the purchase with flashy multi window gimmicks instead of showing actual ergonomic improvements. The proof will be in the pudding. Will the author stick to that sprawling neck twisting setup long term, or will he switch back to a more conventional setup once the novelty of his new toy wears off and his video got enough views?
FWIW 2, I have a Quest 3 for gaming, and could never use that for work due to the limited narrow FoV(~110°) that make it more like "binoculars vision" than actual virtual/augumented "reality". And according to the experience of MKBHD(Marques Brownlee) on YT, the Apple VP has an even narrower FoV than that. Ouch! That does not sound optimistic for productivity at all. IMHO 130°+ should be the norm for FoV going forward. Anything narrower and I feel like I'm wearing horse blinkers.
Totally agree. I have tried multiple monitors so many times over the years but always come back to a single display, usually 24-27”.
Turning your head is a hassle. I also find turning my eyes fatiguing if the angle of movement is too great. So I tend to prefer smaller, higher PPD displays over larger displays with the same resolution. I want a lot of pixels in a compact FOV.
For me, 4K 24” has been the sweet spot for desktop monitors. I currently have a 27” due to so few good 24” 4K monitors being made these days, and at the viewing distance allowed by my setup, even that is just slightly too big, such that looking to the corners can get annoying.
The PPD on these headsets still just isn’t anywhere close to the point where it can match a single high density desktop monitor, and making the virtual screen bigger or adding side screens just doesn’t work for me ergonomically.
I don't understand. I don't even have to technically turn head with 3 screens. It's just eyes I have to move, and even if I turned head, it's barely 20 degrees?
I have 3 screens, but honestly would prefer more.
I find it more uncomfortable to eyes to switch screens on the same window, especially if one is light and the other is dark. The blinking is disorientating and can be eye hurting, because eye is not prepared for the color switch/ doesn't know what to expect.
I have 22 inchers around 32 inches away from my eyes.
When looking at the video in the OP, the issue is more like the screen seems so close and plastered to the FOV. When you could have more screens further away.
In real life all 3 screens are in my FOV, I would feel massively overwhelmed if it appeared as it did in his video, not sure if it is giving a correct perception.
* Your 22" screen at a distance of 32" has a horizontal FOV of 33°. Moving your eyes from the middle of one screen to the adjacent screen is a 33° movement. Assuming 1080p it would have a PPD of 58, which is roughly retina PPD.
* My 27" screen at a distance of 20" (I measured it [update: originally measured at 14", remeasured in a more relaxed posture]) has a horizontal FOV of 60°, almost twice as wide. Moving my eyes to an adjacent screen would be physically impossible and I'd have to turn my head since the maximum adduction angle for human eyes is ~45° (each side). At 4K it has a PPD of 32, not even retina.
Although you can move your eyes from the center of the left screen to the center of the right (33 * 2 = 66°), you can't see the edges of your outer screens without turning your head slightly (33 * 3 = 99°, greater than human adduction of 45 * 2 = 90°).
Your three screens have a combined FOV of 99°, which is 50% bigger than my single 27" at 60°. That's definitely more, but it's 1.5x, not 3x, more. So our setups are not that different, it's just that you are using three monitors to cover a little more horizontal FOV than I get sitting closer to just one.
> I find it more uncomfortable to eyes to switch screens on the same window, especially if one is light and the other is dark. The blinking is disorientating and can be eye hurting, because eye is not prepared for the color switch/ doesn't know what to expect.
I use dark theme for everything so don't have this issue and am constantly switching between tabs and windows.
Note there was an error in my math here which I can no longer correct. My 27" 4K at a distance of 20" has a PPD of 63, which is also considered retina. Compare this to the Vision Pro PPD of ~34.
To get true 4K res (3840x2160) at a PPD of 34 would require a screen that is 3840 / 34 = 113 degrees wide, way in excess of what is accessible by adduction of the human eye. A 60° wide screen would have a resolution of 60*34 = 2,040 pixels wide, or roughly 1080p.
I also use dark theme for everything, and I also have a browser extension for that, but I keep disabling/enabling it because sometimes things bug on dark mode.
How is to be 14 inches from the screen? I wouldn't feel good being this near to the screen.
I was going to comment that all the ergonomics things I've read suggest arm-length (touch with tip of finger) as the optimal monitor distance, but if you're nearsighted enough that doing so would require glasses, I can completely understand wanting to have the screen much closer. That makes a lot more sense.
> Turning your head ~90 degrees to the left just to see Slack(or any other windows) is for me an productivity nerf, not a boost.
I wouldn't put slack there because I look at it all day long, but I could see leaving open something like Datadog that I look at infrequently, but it'd be nice if it was just _there_ and I didn't have to go tab-hunting to find it
> I could see leaving open something like Datadog that I look at infrequently, but it'd be nice if it was just _there_ and I didn't have to go tab-hunting to find it
Exactly! I use a 50" TV as my main display, but I stick chat, email, and music on separate monitors. If I use chat/email extensively, I move it closer. Otherwise, it's just something that's on all the time that I don't need to dig for.
I have it on a stand that I screwed into a beam of wood that goes between two very heavy speakers that I built myself. If I move my setup I might mount it on a wall.
Needless to say, I'm eagerly awaiting something like an Apple Vision Pro to be "mainstream" for desktop displays. I can't use a Mac for my 9-5 job.
I "install" high usage chrome tabs as apps so I can pin them to my taskbar and bring them up with a shortcut, e.g. Win+9. I actually do this more more than programs, so I use AutoHotKey to get more shortcuts, e.g. CapsLock+F1 may bring up something less common like Authy.
Tab/Window hunting via CtrlTab/AltShiftA is... not great. A goal of mine is to never AltTab.
Exactly. My regular setup is two 27" monitors both at home and at work, but I noticed that most if the time I focus on one monitor, while the other monitor is secondary with Teams, Outlook etc and only "supports" my workflow.
I am sure a setup as shown in the video could help someone like a stock trader as they are used to getting large amount of input from multiple sources. But I think for most people, to actually get things done, they only have this much attention and can do limited amount of multitasking. Having to arrange windows is also a real hassle. And for me, I already use workspace features for different projects, which is a bit burdening, and having infinite amount of windows around is not going to help.
Which is why I never bothered to add a third monitor when I could easily do so. I tried it out a few times with my tablet but found that display mostly unused.
> Anyway, back on topic, this video feels like justifying the purchase with flashy multi window gimmicks instead of showing actual ergonomic improvements. The proof will be in the pudding. Will the author stick to that sprawling neck twisting setup long term, or will he switch back to a more conventional setup once the novelty of his new toy wears off and his video got enough views?
I feel like this is the 2024 equivalent of Compiz[0] first showing up some 20 years ago.
So many people were blinging out their desktops with these wild effects. Windows burn away when you close them! When you change desktops, there's some huge rotating cube!
But the novelty of this stuff just wears off. For a couple of months you can impress people with the "gee whiz" factor, but at the end of the day it doesn't do anything to actually make your work easier.
If I want something for "real work," low latency is a killer feature. Having to rummage through some virtual junk drawer to do the equivalent of alt-tab or meta-scrollwheel is always going to be weirdly indirect and slower for me.
There do exist practical, non-gaming use cases for VR/AR goggles (e.g. simulators and training software), but these are niche. I certainly don't buy the idea that "desktop computing" writ large is somehow going to be enhanced by this experience.
Exactly. You can only focus your attention on a limited area regardless of number of screens. A head-turn is a worse interface for switching information than a shortcut key.
Everyone works differently. I use several monitors at work and definitely have to turn my head a few degrees to focus on my secondary. I use an ultrawide at home.
I'm way more productive with more display area than a single display using virtual workspaces and shortcut keys.
Similarly I do better with multiple monitors and infrequent app/workspace switching than I do with one monitor switching apps/workspaces constantly.
In fact one of the reasons my gaming PC doesn’t often do double duty as a Linux workstation is because it only has a single monitor and no matter how I configure shortcuts for switching apps and workspaces, I always find myself irritated to the point of distraction trying to get work done. All my real work happens on my dual monitor Mac setup.
You can place and size the screens wherever you want. If this guy wants place an additional 2 screens to his left so he has to turn his head, so be it. The fact that tech allows you to experiment with any screen config/layout is pretty amazing.
Totally agree. 32 inch display, 3 desktops mapped to Meta+left arrow, meta+up arrow, meta+right arrow. I don't even have to think about it to get to the desktop that is the up arrow.
I do have a 24 inch monitor that sits vertically to the side of this monitor but I haven't turned it on in at least a year. Even having to move my eyes is a waste of time. Screen space is simply not an issue for me.
Hope these people enjoy their videos because you aren't getting a whole lot more. It is like when I bought the sega saturn for like $800 adjusted for inflation as a kid. It was so cool for one New Years eve party and that was about it.
I’m a very happy single screen + spaces user. I’d love this kind of setup in VR, where there’s an easy way to rotate around the spaces for longer work in a given area, but still be able to quickly glance.
100% agree with this. I've tried dual and triple screens over the years but what's stuck for me is a 43inch 4k monitor, its about the biggest I can go without having to move my head too much
Center screen is the focus screen for sure. I cmd+tab between my code editor, terminal, and browser there.
Laptop screen on the left is for Slack and music player.
Right screen is in portrait mode and it’s for docs or design comps.
I have had issues with neck pain and stiffness and I find that having a wider FOV for my workspace balanced between left and right sides actually helps a lot…so that’s a huge part of why I like the triple monitor setup.
I ended up settling on a ~27" landscape and bit smaller portrait monitor for my desktop. I tried a third for a while as basically chat/communications but it was a bit much. I'd probably be fine with a single large screen but I like having reference material on a separate monitor. Having a separate laptop is sometimes useful.
Yeah. Is turning your head more taxing than an app switch? Yes. That’s my experience. Moving your eyes 20-30 degrees is less taxing than app switching.
Most times you don’t have a use case for 2 monitors and you are then forced to find a problem for your sunk cost as it’s already in front of you with an empty space. You want to fill it with something and make yourself think you are working faster
Context: I spend a lot of time in VR (gaming), have used VR as a productivity tool, and have ordered an AVP.
> Turning your head ~90 degrees to the left just to be able to see Slack(or any other windows) is for me an productivity nerf, not a boost.
I agree, or at least _mostly_ agree.
I definitely wouldn't have a window that I regularly use that far away from my "resting" position. I might put something like Discord or IRC over there, but that's a place for something that is a mild distraction - something you'd like to look at every once in a while, but not at the expense of changing your primary workspace and fully breaking context.
> In my life I experimented with 3 monitors, 2 monitors, one monitor, ultra widescreens, square aspect ratio displays, and a mix of several of those, etc. and I find the best productivity setup is when I have everything centered in my narrow/focused field of view, regardless of how many displays there are or what their aspect ratio is.
> If I have too many or too wide displays, needing me to turn my head/neck to the side to see what's on them, it's just useless real estate and extra shit I have to manage and organize, wasting my brain power and concentration on managing the multi-monitor setup instead of on work.
I like multiple displays, but like you, I quickly reached a point where it created more effort than it prevented. Learning to use macOS's built-in virtual desktops was a huge deal for me. I use them extensively.
> FWIW, currently I have a single 32 inch(27 would work too) 4k display straight in front of me, and switching workspaces via Meta Key + Scroll wheel is way more desk-real-estate, monetarily and energy eficient and more ergonomic than moving my neck to another display on the side that's just sitting there displaying a picture that nobody's looking at 90% of the time.
This seems similar to me.
I have a 32" 4K display at eye level. My 16" MBP acts as a secondary display, centered below it. I use the MBP's keyboard and trackpad, but what I'm working on is on the upper monitor. The laptop display is relegated to "secondary/communications" usage.
For example
Right now, I have three virtual desktops on my monitor:
* blank - where new apps and windows open by default
* browser - for me that's Arc. I have five "spaces" open in Arc, including one for "personal" and one for "killing time" (that's where HN lives)
* terminal - this is a full-screen Kitty instance. I'm running fish+tmux, use neovim for my editor/IDE, and all of my projects are running in Docker. I currently have three tmux windows, with two, two, and four panes open respectively.
My laptop screen has a ton of other, less-often-used stuff:
* default - lots of random windows that I'm not actively referencing. I don't always bother to close them, as I don't use this desktop often enough to care
* Slack
* Calendar
* Discord
* Notion
* Messages
I use a lot of full-screen apps, and doing it this way lets me focus on one thing at a time. I can use keyboard commands (Ctrl+arrows) or gestures (three-finger swipe) to move between desktops on either monitor, or Ctrl+up to display them all at once if I'm looking for something.
> Anyway, back on topic, this video feels like justifying the purchase with flashy multi window gimmicks instead of showing actual ergonomic improvements. The proof will be in the pudding. Will the author stick to that sprawling neck twisting setup long term, or will he switch back to a more conventional setup once the novelty of his new toy wears off and his video got enough views?
My hope is that I'll be able to use my existing workflow - or one very similar to it - even when I'm not at my desk. Initially that will be by setting a single large macOS screen directly in front of me, and one or more native visionOS/iPadOS apps below and above it. Most of the things I'm using my laptop screen for today are available as native apps, so I think that will work.
Longer term, I hope either Apple's virtual desktop solution matures or Immersed's release on visionOS will solve my issues. I'd used Immersed in the part to work in VR, and it works very, very well. The only headset I have that supports it is a Quest 2, and its resolution is too low to consistently work in a terminal in VR for me. I have a Pimax Crystal QLED as well (which I use for gaming), but haven't been able to find a good virtual desktop solution for it on Mac.
> FWIW 2, I have a Quest 3 for gaming, and could never use that for work due to the limited narrow FoV(~110°) that make it more like "binoculars vision" than actual virtual/augumented "reality". And according to the experience of MKBHD(Marques Brownlee) on YT, the Apple VP has an even narrower FoV than that. Ouch! That does not sound optimistic for productivity at all. IMHO 130°+ should be the norm for FoV going forward. Anything narrower and I feel like I'm wearing horse blinkers.
My Quest 2's FOV feel about like the minimum for being productive for me, and it's 97º horizontal. My Crystal is 110ºh x 96ºv (it can do up to 125ºh with difference lenses), and that's more than sufficient for flying a jet fighter in War Thunder. I've not laid hands on an AVP yet, but I'm already hearing about optical issues at the edges of the FOV. That's consistent with what I see from the other headsets I've owned or used - your peripheral vision is mostly important for context; you really only need about 30º that's crystal clear to be effective. That's doubly true with foveated rendering and eye tracking; anything outside that cone isn't something your eyes are going to resolve in detail anyhow.
This was a great demo, and the spatial computing stuff is cool, but what?
He’s showing off that he has a big screen tv playing a video, overlayed over his big screen tv, playing a video without anyone watching it.
He shows video playing cooking tutorials in his kitchen when he and his partner are both in other rooms working at their desks.
A “note” pinned to his fridge, that he can only see while wearing the headset.
He shows a screen for playing his music pinned to a wall on the other side of the room.
He either has to get up and move to that location to change his music, which is somehow being presented as better than having a tab open on his browser, or he would just use a tab open on his browser and the whole spatial setup is just flashy moot.
I once had a desk setup with two screens where I angled one screen aggressively to the left to attempt to stop allowing the corporate chat program to distract my immediate vision and it hospitalized me with a chronic neck injury.
This setup is ‘cool’ but I feel like we’ve already trudged these waters.
I’m confused by the enthusiasm. Have we all forgot that we’ve been through this “virtual desktop” cycle already?
Are these all people that just ignored the previous stereoscopic headsets as “toys” who are seduced into it this time around by APPL’s marketing that this is for “working adults”?
I'm absolutely certain at this point that this video, the video of the kid on the subway, and the guy in the Tesla are all some sort of inorganic viral marketing campaign on Apple's part because they are also aware of how narrow and niche the market for this device is and are terrified it'll have low uptake.
It isn't open and interoperable with a bunch of other software like the Quest or Reverb, you can't game on it because there's no SteamVR support, and the projected use cases are ridiculous gimmicks. It's also got a much narrower FoV than initially advertised and is limited to Apple's walled garden. For productivity, why would you pay $3500 for this when you could buy two huge 4K monitors and an impressively powerful PC/Mac instead and still have about 500 bucks left over?
It's all so weird. It's like they're trying to make it seem normal to just use this thing out and about when the best applications of VR are interactive simulations and games that are best used indoors in controlled environments. Not a single mixed reality device (Google Glass, HoloLens) by Apple's competitors has ever made this type of use case work, and I have little faith that Apple has somehow overcome all of the obstacles that Google and Microsoft faced.
> I’m confused by the enthusiasm. Have we all forgot that we’ve been through this “virtual desktop” cycle already?
yeah i dont get the hype, almost everything here should be possible with the quest 3 for 1/10th of the price. Plus you can play games, its lighter, more fov, etc.
It depends on your environment and on the person. But personally for me, the concept of actually being able to physically walk around in a spatial computing environment, and manipulate windows to change different things appeals to my ADD side. I like physically walking around and pacing as I work anyway and this gives me the opportunity to do it by simulating essentially multiple visual input interfaces all over my house.
Being anchored to a single desk and computer exacerbates what is already effectively a fairly sedentary occupation.
Not long ago, to “walk* on water” was considered incredible, no matter how tiring.
> confused by the enthusiasm
People were confused by 1,000 songs in your pocket when we already have radio, or the Internet on a tiny crappy LCD screen with a dog slow connection when it's much easier to read on a desktop CRT and ISDN or DSL line.
Crossing that is quite hard, so the interesting question isn't will it be crossed but when, and how can you be positioned to service the early majority.
> I’m confused by the enthusiasm. Have we all forgot that we’ve been through this “virtual desktop” cycle already?
A lot of people wouldn't touch a Meta headset with a ten foot pole, especially with all the account shitshow that happened when the Occulus brand got sunsetted. Then Vive headsets required a lot more investment and you had to be already convinced to dive into it. Not mentionning that macs and the all Apple ecosystem didn't have enough GPU power to deal with VR so anyone knee deep in there wouldn't touch VR.
I'm kinda glad that side of the market gets into VR, and even if we see a lot of tired ideas in a "eternal September" style, we might get new insights and nice findings as well along the way.
I'd still be worried about how much Apple will allow for users to tweak that experience. I don't see a third party window manager being ever allowed for instance
How long I wonder before Apple is able to link multiple Vision Pros together so that people in the same physical space can share the same augmented reality?
Imagine if when he says hello to his partner, she's also wearing a Vision Pro and is able to walk around their house seeing the same reality.
That would make the VP much less isolating which is one of the main "I'd never use this" reasons I have against it. I could imagine in a few years time my wife and I each having these (our kids are grown and out of the house) and using them to work during the day and watch movies together at night.
Now, not at $3,500 a piece and with all the compromises this device has. But a future device that's more affordable and has fewer compromises... maybe.
I feel like it’s more or less guaranteed that Apple will end up implementing this eventually. Just as my wife and I can both connect our AirPods to the Apple TV and watch a movie while the kids are sleeping.
This reminds me of some dystopian science fiction film where everyone is immersed in a shiny AR layer, while reality without the layer is dirty and derelict.
Scene:
A fancy nightclub, pretty people dancing to very loud music, surreal virtual objects and effects everywhere.
Swap to reality: The music turns off. It's no longer night. An old, run-down building. Headset people in shabby clothes dancing to inaudible sounds, talking way too loudly, interacting with non-existent objects in the empty air. Everything is dusty. Beams of sunlight shining through half transparent windows. They haven't been cleaned for decades.
Sure, I'm cognizant of that too: Ready Player One, The Matrix, Neuromancer. But I honestly don't think that's our most likely future dystopia. For me it's a toss up between Brazil and Idiocracy.
I'm also looking forward the discussions when someone wants to move to the Meta reality when the rest of the family is in the Apple reality, and all the blue postits vs green postits arguments within shared group spaces.
I’m curious how that works out for him. I have been using mine fairy intensely for work since I got it on Friday, and I don’t do it anything remotely like that.
I do use screen mirroring with my Mac, and it works well for me. My physical monitor is a 24” 4K, and I have my Vision Pro set to replicate that. It’s most comfortable to have it replicate a bigger display further back than the physical monitor, but in practice the FOV of the mirrored display is pretty similar to my real one.
I have also found myself using a bunch of auxillary VP windows, but I don’t arrange them as fixed planes as if they were more monitors. I tend to open them much more dynamically and move them around. The gesture and eye tracking makes this practical so I see no reason to ‘fix’ them in place.
You can do things like dragging a single note out of apple notes and placing it next to your Mac display, of even in front. Also there is no reason to have windows be these giant panels floating far away. It works just as well to have a messaging app be a 4 inch window floating just above your keyboard. It’s also easy to just grab these things and pull them in and out of your field of view.
Another thing that is overlooked is that you can have a lot of windows overlapping each other in the virtual space and they ghost out of the way of the selected window if it is behind them, so you can work with a bunch of windows stacked front to back.
I have enjoyed leaving things like the economist app open in front of a couch in another room and then walking in there to sit down when I’m taking a break from work.
I also have been super productive sitting on my bed immersed in the white sands environment watching developers videos and reading docs in safari etc.
This is starting to me remind of when everyone was talking about replacing their Desktop/Laptop with an iPad and a Bluetooth keyboard for their work machine. I don't know anyone who was able to do so successfully.
There's a lot of workflows that are hampered or impaired on an iPad beyond programming. Yeah, with kludges you can kinda get most or even all of it done but usually in a less efficient manner. Missing or limited programs, limitations on using peripherals, and moving data/files between apps drags things down.
I have an iPad Pro 12.9. Once in a while I try to get things done on iPad only. No, no programming, other stuff. Every single time, I end up going back to my real computer and regretting wasting time figuring out how to make things work.
I think parent's point is these people probably still kept a laptop on the side, even if that's not their primary device.
And it's totally fine, but we could be at a point where there was absolutely no need to keep a laptop "just in case" or for the rare occasions it's needed.
I like the Connected podcast's take on it, where at some point two of the three hosts where primarily on iPad, but keeping their recording setup on the mac and a few other task where they needed another computer as a bridge for random reasons.
99% of my work is on a terminal. I used Blink for that, and connected to a remote machine via MOSH. MOSH reduces perceived latency by anticipating the update, and by sending only a diff between the client's display and the up-to-date emulated client on the server.
I stopped because my 11" iPad Pro just wasn't large enough for most work, and because looking down at that screen wasn't practical if I'm sitting in a chair. For working from a hammock it was amazing - but my MBP has a larger screen, no network latency at all, and I can work fully offline if necessary.
If I found myself between jobs again, I'd probably sell my laptops and go back to that setup. Other than saving money on hardware, there really isn't much point to it.
The iPad ? no. A Surface Pro or a Z13 ? totally. Even chromebooks are covering all the computing needs of many people.
The tablet/convertible form factor is I think here to stay, even if it doesn't dethrone the standard laptop.
To your point, I'd see the same curve for the AVP: it will never become a super solid standalone device, Apple won't let other companies meddle with their vision. But Microsoft, Meta, Vive or Asus will eventually push their headsets over the line, and it won't be the default computing choice for most people, but will still be a solid choice for anyone willing to invest in the experience and take the tradeoffs.
The experience really isn't that bad on iPad, except the apps you end up needing to use are kind of lacking... which of course does make it not wonderful.
I did this for a couple of weeks with an 11 inch pro while my laptop was being repaired (blasted keyboard... then they broke the mainboard while replacing it).
The 11inch is a little small and it made some things difficult, but not how you might think.
The main thing with the size is the magic keyboard thing just didn't have enough room between the bottom of the screen and where my fingers need to be so I ended up hitting that a lot.
The larger ipad actually doesn't have that problem.
But... I should have just gone with a macbook air instead.
Same price, roughly, same battery life, more power and versatility.
Anyway, you didn't ask for a review but I gave you one anyway <3
If I can do almost everything except this in app A, and everything except that in app B, which happen to be important workflows, why should I torture myself with an iPad instead of a proper Mac/PC or even Chromebook?
I know a couple people who travel(ed) a lot who made it work for them. Personally I never could. (And a MacBook Air is sufficiently svelte and light these days I'm not sure I would make the effort.)
It depends on your workflow. I'd never voluntarily infringe that burden uppon myself, but if you only work on terminal/slack/zoom all day, it's quite doable.
1. There is absurd motion blur whenever you move your head. This has to be some nausea prevention technique but it is extremely frustrating if you’re trying to look back and forth between screens. No setting for this of course because it’s apple.
2. You can have only one window that’s a virtual desktop. Everything else has to be a iOS app so that means you cant have a window for coding and for viewing the result in chrome unless you want to figure out how to code on iOS which does not have a vscode app!
In general, everything being on iOS is an extreme nerf to its capabilities as a decent peripheral. It’s an iPad on your face. Do you want to figure out how to do your daily work on an iPad?
If the virtual desktop was fully featured then it might be usable.
Finally the windows are not curved which is worse than my meat space curved ultra wide monitor.
One caveat when watching screen captures like this is that they do not accurately capture the actual field of view, which is more akin to wearing an old pair of ski goggles.
The review from The Verge has a simulated view halfway down the page. The screen captures are deceptive and strongly favor Apple's marketing.
People are nuts for walking around with public in these given how much you're limited, someone's going to get seriously injured because they missed something in their periphery.
I like the idea of having presets in specific locations, like your grocery list next to your fridge. Or specific productivity apps near your desk/keyboard.
Any idea if visionOS supports this, or if you have to set up the apps every time you come home?
Having your grocery list always next to your fridge implies that you will be wearing this most of the day. Otherwise, why not just keep a list in Notes app or an actual physical list on the fridge?
I do plan to use my AVP all day, at least for a while. I expect that there will be a moment where things "click". My brain will have adapter to the world with the computing overlay, and I'll be seeing a difficult (or impossible) to describe vision of the future.
That said, I don't think that'll be practical long term. I'll do it long enough to get a taste for it, then I expect that I'll be using it in my office chair 90% of the time. I am looking forward to being able to use it while traveling (while my wife is driving, on an airplane, in hotels, etc.) to access my productive environment, though. That will be its primary utilitarian use.
The reason I'm willing to spend the money is that I want to get in as early as possible on developing for the platform. I fully expect that the product line will survive and grow, and that in a handful of years they'll be smaller, lighter, cheaper, and as ubiquitous as smartphones are today. I want to be selling apps during that initial wide adoption.
It does, provided the headset isn't completely powered down. It is designed sort of with that in mind -- there's no off button, you just take it off and that's it, sort of like the Max headphones. But, if it is completely shut off, to my knowledge atm there is no persistence beyond that and the device will reset all window positions.
At the end of the day the Apple Vision Pro is an iPad with an infinite screen and window management. If you can work on an iPad you can work better in the AVP.
That’s not the case for me and it’s not the case for many people here at least. The AVP is an amazing content consumption device but not at the current price point IMHO.
I’ve written daily about my experience with the AVP [0] and I’ve come to the conclusion that I don’t think it’s for me right now. I have zero doubt I will buy a future iteration of this device but this version doesn’t cut it for me.
I went in eyes wide open, no pun intended, to the AVP. I knew from the start that it was a v1, early version, and essentially a dev kit++. I said in comments here on HN that returning it was always on the table for me. I’m going to give it a few more days but as things stand now, be retuning mine.
Apple has created something magical and they knocked it out of the park but it needs improvements to become something I want to wear all the time. Improvements that I believe that Apple will make, that’s Apple’s super power, commitment. They don’t always follow through (the Mac for many years or things like the HomePod) but when they do they create amazing things. Heck, the iPad is something I build on top of (as does my company) because I/we know Apple is committed to it in a way that you can’t say for any other tablet maker.
I can’t wait for fitter iterations of this device and for it to have its retina/iPhone 4 moment.
Having used iPad Pro as daily driver since release of magic keyboard with trackpad, I agree with this take.
In particular, if you already use the new iPadOS "Stage Manager" with your business, productivity, and code apps in workspace clusters, you can use all the same apps, tools, and workflows as easily, plus spatial affordances.
Note that any iPad app, if pulled close to you to be about iPad sized within half an arm's reach, can be touched, scrolled, manipulated as if a literal iPad screen. This even works with apps such as Microsoft Whiteboard within Teams, you can write on the shared whiteboard with your fingertip. Of course, lack of solidity makes this far less precise than the literal iPad.
If you find the iPad Pro w/ Magic Keyboard and Trackpad and the Stage Manager approach to multi-task work constraining relative to laptop, you will be even less happy with AVP.
PS. This laptop and tablet case is one of the slimmest that carries both Macbook Pro 16" together with iPad Pro 13" in its Magic Keyboard w/ Trackpad "case" sleekly with plenty of space for all accessories:
It has a particularly nice pull strap that lifts the iPad out from the iPad slot. Carrying this case means you always have both with you.
If your use of the iPad is so comfortable you prefer to reach for that over the Macbook for most things even when both are at hand, going to the Macbook only when you need to do something in terminal you can't do in Blink shell, you will probably be fine for remote work using AVP.
Not being able to break out and spatially arrange different Mac windows on this thing is a major deal breaker right now. I don’t really care about all the apps published to the store. For real productivity I want a full desktop computer in front of me.
Well, will it one day support Steam and PC or is this just another closed expensive piece of hardware we'll need to wait for the non-Apple walled garden equivalent?
> we'll need to wait for the non-Apple walled garden equivalent
I assume Quest 2/3 already has those capabilities, or they will be added very soon to it, it can already remember things like your table/couch, display videos, etc.
The passthrough looks and works better than expected, but also a bit fuzzier than expected. I do appreciate how crisp the "desktop" windows look though.
All the reviews where people state “it’s like looking through clear safety goggles”, etc. are bogus. It’s like looking through a cell phone camera from about 10 years ago. Especially in low light (e.g. a home office.)
The actual AR content, though, is amazingly sharp.
Side by side with a Meta Quest 3, it’s honestly a full generation ahead, so I can see why reviewers are impressed. (I don’t have a quest pro on hand to compare with right now.)
You’re absolutely correct that low light environments suck.
My guess is that it’s a latency/sensor trade off leading to the constant noise.
Is Apple going to build their own version of a full frame / medium format sensor in order to improve the low light performance over the next decade. Because that would have major implications for the photography industry if that were ever to appear in an iPhone.
Hmm I doubt it. The bigger the sensor the bigger the lens especially if you're not looking for ultra wide angles. I doubt much bigger is going to be physically feasible with apples focus on thinness.
it's inconsistent. when i set it up on friday and used it over the weekend, i couldn't read the text on my iphone or the keys on my keyboard. i'm using it at work right now, and have no problem - it's extremely sharp. not sure what the variable is - but hopefully something they can improve.
Yeah well, it has been a thing around Apple products for a while, they call reality distortion field but quite frankly I think it's borderline lying.
For some reason, people keep giving Apple a pass for many of the shortcomings of their very expensive products.
I mean if they would make extremely competitive affordable products I would kinda make sense to give them some slack (it used to be a bit like that TBH) but today's Apple deserves none of that.
I still remember the hype with Airpods and just after getting them I quickly understood that I had been owned. Not that Airpods were a bad product per se, but for the price they are just not good value.
It is still the same and even worse with the AVP. Considering the price, this product almost suck. It's like people acclaiming an extremely expensive Porsche as a great car. Who give a fuck, the thing is so expensive it is reserved to a small elite, if you make stuff infinitely expensive, they better be infinitely good.
And there lies the problem with current Apple, because they have all the money in the world, they have very little incentive to figure out a working compromise for products at a price that would work for most people.
Their current products are plagued with this issue: they are all "nice" but only if you have infinite money, once you start comparing and making choices, they become a lot less interesting, in fact I would argue that most of them low-key sucks for their price...
This is a screen recording from the device, which is not necessarily the same thing as what you as a user see when wearing the headset. For example there’s no vignette or distortion towards the edges what so ever in the video.
As far as I can tell, the capture output is just a crop of the actual display. MKBHD was trying to demonstrate the FOV using his hands, which indicated that the limits of his view were significantly out of frame of the video.
Owner since Friday morning and developer with normally 17k pixels on 4 screens. If you’re seeking to 1:1 your existing flow, not yet. While my Studio Ultra delivers a lag-free crystal clear feed to the VP, not all “non IDE” apps work well in AVP native windows yet.
But, if you exploit the strengths of the platform, it’s quite nice. I physically walk to my analytics station, meeting station, and programming station. The walking helps me think more intentionally between tasks. It is absolutely slower than multitasking IRL, but faster in terms of thought clarity. Like ideas in the shower. I’ve found a good part of two work days has been better spent in the Vision Pro. I doubt every work day will be the same.
I have two side by side ultrawide 34" monitors. It's too much screen to use effectively. I rarely use more than just one monitor, and when I do use both, it's to put 3 very-zoomed-in windows up at the same time, not to have 6 windows open.
I feel like technology always has a "this is not what i want" problem to huge portions of users.
Why haven't we come up with amazing new ways of incredibly fast feedback?
user: "send feedback : i want to quickly switch between windows and I cant seem to do this"
developer : "Hey look here we have 3700 users who want faster task switching features" (submit task request to upper management) (approved)
a month later, "hey user 7 feedbacks in the last month may have been solved, slap the naked zuckerberg dingus in your home area to hear more"
OT, but: Gruber makes the point [1] that AVP uses indirect manipulation, where the iPhone uses direct. "You don’t reach out and grab a window bar to move the window."
So I have to wonder, did it occur to Apple to try direct manipulation ? The basis would be to emulate Reed Richards a.k.a. Mr Fantastic (elastic).
I've done some experimenting with this. If a window is in focus, it occludes real-world objects, even those that are in front of the window. The real-world object becomes maybe 5% visible, so you can just barely see it.
If the window is not in focus (like if you're not looking directly at it), then it goes 50/50 with real-world objects, so any real object in front of it becomes sort of a "ghost" in order for you to still be able to see the window. It never tries to occlude apps behind real-world objects, except for your hands, which do full occlusion, as shown in the video.
Cool demo to show friends but I didn't learn anything new from this video. I was expecting something on the lines of how legible text is in the floating mac display, if the interaction between ipad apps/mac apps works well, is it better to use mac or ipad versions of apps, etc.
I watched a few reviews. Some reviewers say it's not too heavy even after extended periods of time, others say it already gets uncomfortable on the face after 45 minutes with the default head strap. Some say the double head strap is much better, others say it doesn't make a big difference over the normal one.
The big question is how it fits with your face and how sensitive you are to blur. The sweet spot requires precise positioning on your face - which means a tighter pull on the strap to hold it, and more discomfort if it was already uncomfortable.
That’s the main question. And I suspect, the reason why Apple has not pitched that sort of desk setup. I doubt this is comfortable enough to provide a full day, every day usage.
Why I’m asking, feels a bit like the old iPad / desktop shorthand on consumption vs creation. I liked one review that compared Vision Pro to a highend TV, but not convinced it’s worth more than that.
90% of my usage has been watching media. It won’t pair with laptops (haven’t had time to debug) and the eye-based UI isn’t great, and is outright awful when navigating iPad apps that don’t have working highlights. Scroll and tap gestures are amazingly smooth and accurate; it’s frustrating that there aren’t more ways to use that - I need to dig around in accessibility, I suspect…
In order to get and maintain the best possible clarity, key for text, I have to wear it higher on my face than is comfortable and tighten the strap more than I would prefer.
If I could wear it a little lower or with different supports on my face I could easily spend a full day in it; as it is, I’ve yet to spend more than 4h with it on.
I find the Meta Quest Pro and 3 more comfortable, but the CV1 was the most comfortable. Can’t imagine using those for productivity though; the 3 is _ok_ for text but not stellar, and the pass through mode there is a joke compared to the Vision Pro.
Viture and NReal (XReal now, I guess?) AR glasses don’t compare at all. Vastly more comfortable (if your face isn’t too wide) but tiny FOV and lots of fiddling required to get sharp text, with unavoidable blur at the edges of the screen.
…I guess I’ve been an enthusiast since the Rift Kickstarter?
I have an Xreal Air and don't find it comfortable at all unless I'm laying down. I have to use optical inserts, and it just keeps sliding down my nose all the time. Quest 3 is vastly more comfortable for me, especially with the Elite strap.
Quest Pro, on the other hand, wasn't as comfortable due to the pressure to the forehead...
Got LASIK in order to do research on stuff like this. I hated jamming my glasses in between my face and CV1; I can’t imagine the xreal working well with inserts - I have to keep it very close to my face in order for it to function.
Even without the inserts and with contacts it was only marginally usable - it has a very narrow sweet spot and requires precise positioning. Not a big issue when watching movies, but a huge one when mirroring the laptop screen...
Far, far more usable. You’ve got a much wider FOV and much better head tracking (6DoF vs 3DoF) and that’s before the basic improvements you get from having more resolution to play with.
I thought there was no head tracking on XReal, but simply a 1-to-1 usage of the displays for video, i.e. without any simulated cinema environment around the movie. Which would mean the required FOV and resolution doesn't have to be as large as on a proper VR headset. Though it seems I was mistaken here.
This is largely personal, as everyone’s face/head is different.
Personally, it’s the most comfortable headset I’ve ever used.
Many people recommend the dual loop strap, but I actually love the solo band and find it super comfortable.
Many people are also experimenting with different ways to wear it. For example, I have been wearing mine with no light seal, which increases the FOV and I surprisingly find more comfortable. I think people need time to adapt on how to best wear it, and third party mods will be a thing.
All that said, I wouldn’t want to wear it for 8 hours straight. It will continue to get lighter and more comfortable each generation.
I tried the dual loop and it ended up being more uncomfortable. It's really down to each persons build. For me I couldn't wear without a light seal, my eyebrows would touch the glass, and kinda already do with the normal cushion.
Once you figure out how to get it just right it's pretty easy to stay in it for a lot longer. I went about six hours yesterday without any discomfort (I did get a smudge on the lens and was too stubborn to clean it).
That’s a movie though, not work. And taking it off for a lunch or snack break, does the user feel sore putting it back on? Is the 3rd or 4th session of the day so uncomfortable as to be limiting for an 8 hour work day?
I'm disappointed by how shallow even "in depth" reviews are that they don't mention this. A reclined position basically eliminates weight and balance issues. Additionally, using a traditional monitor in a reclined position is very difficult.
For Meta's Quest headsets, third party manufacturers sell solid "halo" head straps, which are much more comfortable by distributing the weight mostly on top of the head instead of just pressing the headset to the face. Basically imitations of Sony's PlayStation VR.
The top manufacturer is BoboVR, but they obviously haven't yet made one for the Vision Pro.
I don't get why Meta and Apple don't include this as the default, given that it's obviously the optimal solution. Then again, at least Apple even used a heavy and unnecessary metal frame in the headset, so ergonomics clearly isn't their top priority.
On the bright side, the AVP's "Lightning-like" connector for the arms means that it's at least theoretically possible for third parties to design whatever mounting hardware people want.
Correct me if i'm wrong, but isn't this just a fake "demo" crafted with Premier Pro type scene stabilization? Just an "artist" with a rendition of what this could be like?
Nope, this a screen recording of the Vision Pro's passthrough. High quality video with rocksteady tracking to keep the windows perfectly in place! That same channel has a couple other videos with him using the AVP as well.
I believe this is a real screen capture from an actual Vision Pro (it came out last friday). The video description says "See what a real workflow looks like with the new #visionpro". There's more videos on his channel also :)
Demoing is hard because of the vision prescription (if needed) and the face scan required to get the light seals right. These things aren’t really designed for sharing.
But you can buy one and if it isn’t what you hoped for, you can return it within 14 days. In my experience, returns at Apple are quick and easy.
Apple has the prescription lenses in the stores. If you bring your glasses, they have a device that will shine some lights through your glasses to determine your prescription and pop out the correct lenses needed for the Vision demo.
The intake form asks for certain things (like prism vision) and it also asks if you know your prescription ahead of time. I can't imagine that they'll have all of those specific fixes but, for the majority of people, you can simply go in and get the right prescriptions lenses. They even email you a link to get your specific prescription of lenses after the demo.
Looks cool... but man can these companies just stop it with the fake marketing content already?
Between this and the Gemini demo its just so cringe to see obviously staged content.
Dude just happens to walk by his partner who isn't doing any real work, but is instead playing with a tennis ball at exactly that moment, and who just randomly decides to immediately and without hesitation fucking yeet it at the guy wearing a headset who is clearly trying to make a recording. Come on people... what has tiktok done to us?
I thought it was just a funny thing that the author added in to highlight the effectiveness of the passthrough. It never occurred to me that it might have been intended to be "organic".
100% agree that there are different levels of marketing lies, and Gemini was lying about tech where this is just acting/staged.
I was mainly referring to how in both cases the creators are using this "fake authentic" tiktok-style corporate content with actors clearly behaving in non-realistic ways. So damn cringe... but I can see how equating the two causes confusion and I wish I could delete my original comment. HN seems to have timed out the edit window :(
1. There is no window management whatsoever. It would be great if I could stick apps to each other, or tile them in a frame, but I can't do that. I also can't stack windows—if I put one window behind another, the only way to access it is to move the front window out of the way, or to close it. Kind of ridiculous, because I'm pretty sure that problem was already solved in the early 80s, if not ealier.
2. The field of view is really narrow. I have a 32:9 curved monitor, and I can easily look at the "side" apps by tilting my head just a few degrees, with my eyes doing the rest of the work. AVP demands tilting your head much more in either direction to see the window content, making it much harder to momentarily glance at.
3. I've had awful luck with the MacBook screen projection. Others may not have this issue. After a couple minutes of using it, it begins to heavily stutter to the point of being unusable. The keyboard handoff randomly disconnects. And AVP doesn't yet support bluetooth mice, only trackpads (either the MacBook's built-in trackpad, or a Magic Trackpad).
At least for normal desk work, AVP does not improve speed or efficiency in any way—it does the opposite. Hell, when I'm projecting my MacBook screen, I have to resist the temptation to just use desktop apps for everything, because they're so much faster and easier to use than the floating visionOS/iPadOS apps.
It's the iPad all over again. If you're a seasoned PC power user, using AVP will only hurt your efficiency in the same way that it would to try offloading some of your work to an iPad.
With that said, it does make certain things more enjoyable. Apple clearly didn't make this device as a solution to existing problems. The point is that it's a new relationship that we get to have with technology, which will possibly change the way we want to use technology.
But for real, Apple hasn't launched a first-gen product this limited in use since the original iPhone. It has a long way to go before it actually starts making digital life more efficient, except for some highly specialized use cases.