Stealing a business idea?

[MrBurns]

Hi all,

I'm feeling pretty guilty right now because we're seriously contemplating stealing someone else's business idea and executing it ourselves.

I randomly met this person in a cafe two months ago and we now regularly meet to discuss about about web stuff and our respective ventures. My co-founder and I were originally working on a previous project that we ended up ditching and then we started brainstorming business ideas, many of which we submitted in the last YC application. This guy knew we were searching and yet every time we met he just kept giving us all the details of his website/app and how it would make money etc. This was all informal with no NDAs or anything.

Two months ago I would have never thought of stealing his idea, but a few weeks ago this guy and his partner fell through and he's now alone. I don't even think he can put this thing together and I don't think he's going to anymore even though he claims so. Given that our last venture failed, and in light of this development we're seriously considering stealing his idea. We can actually execute this idea really fast and have a pretty ingenious way to promote it too.

But we're not jerks. We feel it's wrong to do this without telling the guy. And we don't want him in our team neither. He's so passionate about his project that he probably wouldn't want to change anything, such as the name which is really lame. In terms of skills he's technical but probably wouldn't be able to code everything himself, especially the back end. But he does have a bit of money though, so he could help us bootstrap.

We need advise! What should we do? Secretly develop it similar to Mark Zuck, be honest and upfront or partner up?

How many of you have actually stolen other ideas or gotten their ideas stolen?

Thanks for your responses!

[rogerjin]

I can't believe more people haven't stated this, but honestly stealing his idea is an UBER dick move. I can't believe you're even considering this, wow. There's plenty of ideas out there, you don't need to be lazy AND immoral to steal this guy's idea, especially since he trusted the two of you to discuss ideas in good faith. ESPECIALLY since you guys supposedly regularly meet up just to discuss ideas. I would seriously recommend you listen to your conscience and don't do it. It's really a dick move.

[MrBurns → rogerjin]

Thanks for your feedback rogerjin. I respect your point of view and agree that it's somewhat immoral, but given that I strongly believe that the person won't realize the project wouldn't it be dumb to reject a great venture purely on moral grounds? And as some people suggested ideas are out there and other people are probably working on a similar project as we speak. In the end if someone else succeeds with this idea wouldn't that person be stealing the idea as well?

[rogerjin → MrBurns]

"In the end if someone else succeeds with this idea wouldn't that person be stealing the idea as well?"

>> There's an unbelievably huge difference between someone (a complete stranger) realizing this idea by themselves and running with it, versus your friend disclosing his idea/features/strategy to you in good faith and you running with it. MrBurns, there are some things in life more important than money and success, such as not screwing over someone in this way. Shows a complete lack of character. At the risk of sounding condescending, didn't your parents teach you better?

Its not just somewhat immoral, its completely immoral. As my friend who send this thread to me said, "Its one thing to compete with an idea. It's another when someone divulge massive details about everything regarding the idea, and you just come in and try to fuck them over." And yes, while execution is more important than the idea, considering the information was divulged in good faith and you're now just taking the chance to screw him over when he's down, my friend likens your justification to "saying murder is OK because stupid people are making the world dumb." Think about it. It's not OK.

If you really believe this will be a great venture, you should help this guy rather then screw him. And if you really want in on the venture, you should have a serious talk to this person about joining together if you truly realize how bad what you were proposing was, and WITHOUT any ulterior motives. Yes, while he might be too blinded by his passion to make any changes, but you never know until you try.

[MrBurns → rogerjin]

I can see that you're getting pretty passionate about this thread rogerjin and I repect that! I actually started this post to get the most honest feedback I could get and I want to thank you for it. Having said that, here's a purely hypothetical question. Up to what point can you say that it's okay to steal and idea? Say we hypothetically give this guy three years to launch his pet project. Three years later we meet him again and it's still not launched. Can we say that if he didn't develop it in three years then it's up for grabs? That he got his chance and the next guy should seize his opportunity? The reason why I'm saying this is because contrary to you, I believe that the line between what is moral and what is immoral is not always as clear as you suggest it is.

[dnlhoust → MrBurns]

not to answer for roger, but in my eyes: You're right. Being immoral isn't black and white, in this case it's a line drawn in relation to your relationship to the friend you're considering stealing from. Now it's clear he obviously holds some value in the friendship since he's willing to fully disclose his ideas to you, ideas which he likely plans to do work on. By stealing his ideas you're not only robbing him of something he cares about and a potential income/customer base etc, but you're also betraying that friendship.

Your example of waiting 3 years is a valid one, the reason why the morality changes is because after 3 years he likely will care less about the idea (I mean he didn't do anything with it for 3 years, right?) because it's become apparent he doesn't care much about it, the robbing and betrayal have less of an impact, to the point where it's so much less of a deal that it's just overwritten by you friendship

[mindcrime]

Pursuing the same idea isn't the worst thing you could do. Competition is competition, and - as somebody else already said - if the idea is really good, there are probably other teams working on it already.

BUT... what I personally wouldn't do - just because it would be a dick move - would be to do it behind the guy's back. Tell him what you're thinking about doing, who knows, maybe there is some synergy or what you could work together. Or not. But as long as you're upfront about it, you'll know you did the ethical thing. He might still be a bit pissed, but it won't be anywhere near as bad as just going behind his back and then springing it on him later.

[MrBurns → mindcrime]

Thanks for your reply mindcrime. You're right, we're going be upfront about it and see his reaction. If he's professional in his response and is willing to compromise we might consider working with him.

[kfcm]

From The Tao of Programming, 3.1 (http://www.canonical.org/~kragen/tao-of-programming.html#boo...)

There once was a man who went to a computer trade show. Each day as he entered, the man told the guard at the door:

    ``I am a great thief, renowned for my feats of shoplifting. Be forewarned, for 
      this trade show shall not escape unplundered.''

This speech disturbed the guard greatly, because there were millions of dollars of computer equipment inside, so he watched the man carefully. But the man merely wandered from booth to booth, humming quietly to himself.

When the man left, the guard took him aside and searched his clothes, but nothing was to be found.

On the next day of the trade show, the man returned and chided the guard saying: ``I escaped with a vast booty yesterday, but today will be even better.'' So the guard watched him ever more closely, but to no avail.

On the final day of the trade show, the guard could restrain his curiosity no longer. ``Sir Thief,'' he said, ``I am so perplexed, I cannot live in peace. Please enlighten me. What is it that you are stealing?''

The man smiled. ``I am stealing ideas,'' he said.

[kfcm]

You know, if you feel wrong and guilty about something, it's a good sign YOU SHOULDN'T DO IT!

You may not face legal repercussions, but I sure as Hell would never want to have anything to do with someone who's so treacherous, devious, morally and ethically bankrupt as to steal another person's idea out from under them. Reason: I could never trust you not to stab me in the back.

[nickler]

You'll soon learn that a great business has far less to do with the idea, and far more to do with execution. There are probably a dozen other very smart people working on the same thing right now, if it's truly a great idea, so the question isn't whether you can build it better than this other fellow, but whether you can execute better than all the others out there that you don't know about.

If you think he deserves a piece because it's that revolutionary, then cut him in and tell him what your concerns are with his participation. Any great partnership is based on clear lines and responsibilities being drawn. If he refuses to compromise to work with your team, (or vise versa), then you'll have tried, and your conscience will be clear to proceed, and he'll have had the opportunity to walk away.

The other poster was right. Just build something.

[jacktoole1 → nickler]

The second paragraph of this is the best piece of advise I've seen in this thread. I disagree with the conclusion, but the action is spot on.

Talk to him. Explain to him that you think he's onto something, but that you believe your team will be better able to implement it. There's surely an agreement you can both make that puts you both in a better place. Offer to take him on in some capacity - it sounds like you value his business plan etc., so if he is valuable for the business side of the company, see if he's interested in merging in that respect. If his partner left, this might be just the opportunity you are both looking for. If he absolutely won't join, offer him 10% for the idea (if either of you succeed he's better off).

If you steal his idea, especially without trying to make some arrangement first, you open yourselves up to (a) legal issues of you succeed, or (b) perhaps worse, if you fail, you look like a total jerk. Is this idea so good that you would like to risk your reputation on it? (If so, the guy probably deserves some credit.)

I generally agree that implementation is 90% of the effort. But if your new venture will be benefitting from the discussions you've had, which I believe it's fair to assume were under the premise of you not being a jerk and screwing him over, then he deserves the opportunity to be a part of what he started.

[MrBurns → nickler]

Thanks for your reply nickler. I totally agree with all the points you mentioned. Execution is key and you're right that there are probably twenty other teams working on a similar project. We'll probably clear our conscience first (asap) and build after (as fast as possible!).

[aspir]

Start making it. None of this really matters until you do.

From there, its you're decision as to bring him on, or even tell him. But the speculation you're doing right now is only impeding you.

[MrBurns → aspir]

Thanks for your advise aspir. It seems hard to develop it without telling him given that we regularly meet up with this guy.

[rajdesai225]

I would think of it this way. If the idea is that easy to steal (Or replicate) then (without knowing much about the idea) it sounds to me that it's pretty low barrier to entry idea so ask yourselves how big can it get. Really?

The other and more important thing is - ideas are dime a dozen but it's all about execution. My issue with stealing the idea is that you are not going to be able to execute it as it will never be your true passion. You will always have that doubt. And because of that, you will not have that bullet proof conviction - so essential to success of any startup -required to transform the idea into business.

The reason the guy whose idea you are trying to steal appears stubborn is because he has convection. Just know that execution requires absolute conviction - thousands of people during execution will say how terrible the idea actually is and it will require sheer conviction to transform it into a business model.

So - my suggestion is that the guy who had the idea should be the CEO and you guys should be the cofounders.

I am not big on stealing anything. If you are smart - you will have something original. Remember cream always rises to the top. So forget about stealing and start hacking something original!

[MrBurns → rajdesai225]

Thanks rajdesai225 your insight gives a fresh perspective on this topic. I hadn't thought about the bullet-proof conviction you're referring to and I believe you have a good point!

[8jef]

I'm that guy. I don't mean I'm "him", but I'm in a similar position. I'm a guy with an idea that's too big for its own plate. That being, my idea isn't an attractive one or a novel one, it's just a twist on something that might even exist without me knowing it..

Anyway, if you can do it, you have to do it. But as candid and stupid that may sound, I'd make sure that guy knows everything about it, either by telling him up front asap - including why he's not even considered as a partner, or I'd pass the message using anonymous means. Thing is, he'll know sooner than later anyway.

It's well documented that the effect of surprise after the fact can trigger irrational moves, while placing the subject in the observer seat, even as an outsider, might reduce the probability for an irrational act from ever happening.

In any case, it will get legal if you get successful. I'd provision for that. But I'd definitely go ahead without hiding from him.

[kapilagarwal]

Hi, this is my second comment to your post. If you're so eagerly looking for a good idea, just drop me an email on 'agarwal.k@sify.com' and I'll send you my idea. I think I have a good idea with immense potential. I'll discuss it with you completely with no hidden points. I am looking for a developer. It'll take just 10 minutes for you to go through it. No harm in hearing it. Bye, Kapil Agarwal.

[thesauce25]

I have a feeling what you'll end up actually creating might be significantly different compared to his original idea. Paul Arden makes a good point about ideas floating by on a river of ether, free for anyone to pluck out. So, while he presented you with the idea, it'll probably take shape as something else with your execution. Plus, execution is 99% of the whole problem anyways.

[kapilagarwal]

Build up few webpages of his idea. Show them to him. If he likes them get him in your team. This will convince him to be flexible in his thinking. It is very likely that he may have hidden some facts from you about which he can open up when he'll be part of your team. A person who got the idea for the first time also knows how to execute it properly.