I'm not really in favor of banning anything. As soon as you carve out something that should be banned, then things that shouldn't be banned are twisted by the detractors into being the class of material that should be banned. Today you get rid of Tiktok because it's Chinese Propaganda, and tomorrow you say that The New York Times reporting is propaganda that must also be banned. Then there are no information sources except from whoever is in charge, and that's basically the end of democracy.
I think the cat is out of the bag with Tiktok. If we really think the Chinese government is going to influence ordinary Americans, I'd like to hear why they shouldn't be allowed to do that, and I'd like to hear why they won't just start using Instagram Stories or YouTube Shorts. I get the feeling that old people (like me now I guess) are annoyed that people use Tiktok to come up with absurd pranks that hurt a lot of people and that this platform gives them an audience. But I guarantee that if it's banned, we'll just see the "YouTube Kia Stealing Challenge" or whatever.
The software issue is worrying. If video-sharing applications can be used as malware vectors, that is an iOS/Android bug that needs to be fixed with high urgency. Whatever Tiktok can do, your Verizon app or local newspaper can also do. Do you trust their IT teams to not let malware slip into production builds? I don't. So the OS needs to compartmentalize every app, and disallow wholesale information sharing (no device ID, no access to contacts, etc.; those features are totally unnecessary).
All in all, preventing certain people from having a printing press is against everything our country stands for. Yeah, dumb people can do a lot of harm by publishing dumb things. We balance that risk with with happens when smart people can't publish smart things. Governments have always hated that, but it's always been good for ordinary citizens.
Not being in favor of banning anything sounds noble on the surface, but it isn't plausible. Society is built from the ground up on things people can and can't do.
I thought the ban was due to TikToks ability/possibility to gather information about people, not the what they actually show? I have no love for TikTok.
There's no consensus on why TikTok should be banned, as there are various reasons for various people, likely including the congresspeople sponsoring any legislation to do so.
What a simplistic view of the world. The Chinese government will use their control of TikTok to allow them to have as much control and influence as possible and they won't subscribe to the view of "do what you want as long as it does not affect anyone else". Their view will be "do what we tell you or else".
So out of all the things that are “controlling people’s minds” - drugs, alcohol, pay to win games, gambling sites, and the US news media, that’s where you draw the line?
What’s next, we are going to ban EU media because they may influence people with their evil socialist agenda?
Last I checked, it wasn’t Chinese media that riled up a bunch of yokels to storm the Capital and has a large percentage of the population thinking that the “election was stolen”
> So out of all the things that are “controlling people’s minds” - drugs, alcohol, pay to win games, gambling sites, and the US news media, that’s where you draw the line?
I mean, all these things, if not banned, should at least be subject to regulatory limits. The concern is not the content itself, but the downstream effects on the population. We tolerate regulation on drugs, alcohol and gambling because of the serious negative aggregate effects they have on society. A democratic society based on rule of law should be able to collectively decide that the negative effects of some thing do not justify people's freedoms to do that thing. Without that principle, we might as well live in anarchy.
So do we really regulate that alcohol can’t be sold on Sundays because of the downstream effects or is it because of religion? Why would regulating of TikTok or other media not be based on the political leanings of whoever in power?
We also didn’t start regulating weed because of health concerns. It was because of racism.
How do you choose not to regulate content and still regulate its downstream effects? How is this different from when Tipper Gore wanted to regulate “violent video games” and rap music?
This comment is all over the place, but I think even the people motivated by religion and racism still justify their support of regulation with (at least perceived) negative effects on society. We can agree or disagree with them. Clearly minds are slowly changing on alcohol, drugs, and gambling.
Minds are changing on content and free speech, too. 40% of Millennials are OK with limiting speech offensive to minorities[1] and the trend by age cohort is very clear and swift. We may disagree but we old people are aging out. Another poll[2] shows 61 percent of Americans agree that free speech should be restricted, and 51 percent believe that the First Amendment, ratified in 1791, should be rewritten to reflect the new cultural norms of today.
I don't think you can regulate the downstream effects of content without regulating the content. Its up to a democratic society to decide whether one outweighs the other.
> This comment is all over the place, but I think even the people motivated by religion and racism still justify their support of regulation with (at least perceived) negative effects on society.
Is that suppose to be some type of justification for regulation - “because Jesus said so”?
> Its up to a democratic society to decide whether one outweighs the other.
You mean the same democratic society that made non heterosexual sex, interracial marriage, and Jim Crow illegal?
I would much rather give the government less power and you should to. No matter what side you are on, eventually someone on the opposite side is going to come along and use that power in a way that you don’t like.
There isn't a single country in the EU that's in any meaningful way 'socialist'.
Stop derailing.
As to your last point: approximately what dollar value of damage was done to schools as a result of the 'devious licks' viral videos trend from last year? And on what platform did those viral videos trend?
I agree completely - EU isn’t socialist. Do you think that right wing conservatives feel the same way? You see what happens when you give the government power to decide what should and shouldn’t be seen?
And you sound a lot like the federal government when they wanted to ban NWA because they said they were putting police in danger.
So now it’s okay to ban platforms that cause “bad things” to go viral? Is media also to blame for Jan 6th?
> So now it’s okay to ban platforms that cause “bad things” to go viral?
I think if platforms habitually or consistently cause 'bad things' to go viral then the ownership and management of those platforms should be examined, and if it's determined that their ownership/management may be beholden to interests contrary to the welfare of the nation then sanctions should be applied, which may or may not include a ban.
There are well understood exceptions to free speech and freedom of association that apply to the ownership and control of companies that could significantly affect the welfare of the nation. See:
Approximately what dollar value of damage was done to schools as a result of the 'devious licks' viral videos trend from last year? And on what platform did those viral videos trend?
> I think if platforms habitually or consistently cause 'bad things' to go viral then the ownership and management of those platforms should be examined, and if it's determined that their ownership/management may be beholden to interests contrary to the welfare of the nation then sanctions should be applied, which may or may not include a ban.
Who gets to decide and are you okay with people who have opposite political beliefs than you having the power to make that decision?
> Approximately what dollar value of damage was done to schools as a result of the 'devious licks' viral videos trend from last year? And on what platform did those viral videos trend?
I don’t know. If you’re okay with holding TikTok liable are you also okay with holding conservative media liable for January 6th?
Would you have been okay with the government banning Doom because they think playing video games causes mass shootings?
Do you think we should sue the gun manufacturers for shootings?
In no other area of society do we think anyone should be blamed for criminal activities besides the criminals.
The subject is foreign adversaries, not domestic strife. Let's not get derailed.
> the government banning Doom
The subject is foreign adversaries
> sue the gun manufacturers
The subject is foreign adversaries
> In no other area of society
Yes, we absolutely do. When companies bring out predatory sales techniques (such as lootboxes in video games) these techniques absolutely do attract oversight, sanctions and - in cases - outright bans. It's well recognised that people can be led astray and there are many legal avenues available to prevent significant impact.
A bipartisan “Right Think” committee of officials get to come together and decide what media should be banned? How would that have worked out if those commie sympathizers who were trying to get the good Black folks in the south to rise up against segregation?
> The subject is foreign adversaries
So you’re okay with domestic adversaries like the ones who invaded the capital because they were riled up by domestic media?
> When companies bring out predatory sales techniques
Aren’t all addictive substances “predatory”? Do you think we should bring back Prohibition
No media is being banned. The same content creators can create their content on another platform, or even the same platform, if that platform agrees to incorporate locally so as to be meaningfully under the control of legislation.
> No media is being banned. The same content creators can create their content on another platform
Do you feel the same way if the government suppressing media on Twitter? Facebook? HN?
> if that platform agrees to incorporate locally so as to be meaningfully under the control of legislation.l
So now we are back to the government controlling media. Shouldn’t we also want the government to bring EU media under their control? Maybe we wouldn’t have to deal with cookie banners…
How am I derailing anything? Are you not saying that the government should ban TikTok because it’s harmful?
I'm ending this conversation becausee:
1. you're not actually saying anything and
2. you're endlessly bringing up Jan 6 presumably because you think I'm a conservative and want to expose my double standard.
You're literally Just Asking Questions here, and I absolutely hate that term.
I’m taking your statements to the logical conclusion. It’s what happens when people don’t think through the consequences of giving the government power.
All it really takes to decide whether a government policy is a good idea or not is to think of how the political party you don’t agree with could use that power.
It never ceases to amaze me how willingly people are willing to give power to the government.
The government already has the power to regulate foreign media and broadcasters because it's well understood that their agenda may be inimical to national security.
We're just discussing how this may be applied to a 'broadcaster' such as TikTok which isn't covered by the legislation that covers legacy media.
How does the US government have power to regulate foreign media? There is no great firewall. The government doesn’t even have the power to regulate American media except when it is broadcast over the airwaves.
The only reason that government can legislate mecha over the airwaves is because public spectrum belongs to people and is licensed
> How does the US government have power to regulate foreign media?
Since 2017, U.S. legislators and the Department of Justice have required multiple foreign-funded news organizations to register under the Foreign Agent Registration Act (FARA)
free societies are allowed to people to do unsavory things. Sometimes things change and activities once frowned upon become mainstream once people realize its not bad (or is quite good).
> influence ordinary Americans, I'd like to hear why they shouldn't be allowed to do that
You can find these arguments made in any of the many court decisions related to the foreign funding of trade union groups and other activist entities. Take your pick, there's no shortage to choose from in almost every single anglosphere jurisdiction you can think of.
The printing press analogy isn't really the right analogy when it comes to media "platforms" (any media platform). It's not really about allowing or banning a printing press, it's about companies deciding what printing presses citizens will see work from, what gets boosted and what gets buried, via a behind-the-scenes mechanism and based on heavily profiling users first. And because of the size of these platforms, the dynamic is different than say TV networks. Eg, think of Youtube's control over what videos people see on the internet, it's crazy how much cultural and political influence this gives them
So, it's sort of a subliminal form of influence, not a "this is what I have to say, now make up your mind" situation, and one with a lack of alternatives.
Also, that profiling data being sent to China's government is sketchy. I mean, in Canada, there's a national scandal about election interference and Chinese government outposts policing/pressuring Canadians as it is
TV networks were kind of similar actually, just less personalized, and way smaller in scale so that viewers could have some choice over what company controls what they see. Somewhat... maybe...
I think the cat is out of the bag with Tiktok. If we really think the Chinese government is going to influence ordinary Americans, I'd like to hear why they shouldn't be allowed to do that, and I'd like to hear why they won't just start using Instagram Stories or YouTube Shorts. I get the feeling that old people (like me now I guess) are annoyed that people use Tiktok to come up with absurd pranks that hurt a lot of people and that this platform gives them an audience. But I guarantee that if it's banned, we'll just see the "YouTube Kia Stealing Challenge" or whatever.
The software issue is worrying. If video-sharing applications can be used as malware vectors, that is an iOS/Android bug that needs to be fixed with high urgency. Whatever Tiktok can do, your Verizon app or local newspaper can also do. Do you trust their IT teams to not let malware slip into production builds? I don't. So the OS needs to compartmentalize every app, and disallow wholesale information sharing (no device ID, no access to contacts, etc.; those features are totally unnecessary).
All in all, preventing certain people from having a printing press is against everything our country stands for. Yeah, dumb people can do a lot of harm by publishing dumb things. We balance that risk with with happens when smart people can't publish smart things. Governments have always hated that, but it's always been good for ordinary citizens.