I've noticed a cognitive decline in myself the past couple years. I'm in my mid 30's though so I assume it's more related to long covid. One of the biggest side effects of long covid for me was horrible insomnia, which was killer. The insomnia is mostly gone, but I'm still not my previous cognitive self. It's terrifying to be honest.
I had the same after COVID. Took me many months to start feeling functional again. Any time I tried to think about something, it'd just... noise out? First 2-3 months were just awful
I went to a neurologist who said there's tons of people coming in with the same complaint after COVID, and since there's no literature on that yet, he couldn't really do anything.
I would like to point to this kind of statement that doctors often make, that there is “no literature” or that “nothing is known”. This is very often flat out wrong. Consider the size of the statement: Nothing is known and there exists no literature. The domain of knowledge required for the statement is omniscience. Having read all papers. It’s not an acceptable statement for anyone to make.
your earliest link here was August of last year. I have heard people taking about long COVID as early as early 2021. Properly researched literature takes time to be written and much longer to be peer reviewed and disseminated into the circle of the academic conscious.
I don't think there's much value taking the word that literally. I simply assume the acedemic conscious when I hear "there is no literature on X". I certainly wouldn't want a neurologist to tell me "oh yea I read some news on this last week and X" and treat that as gospel for an ongoing issue.
Yes, the earliest publication of those three is from almost a year ago. Random sample of papers. There exist studies / results / observations with actionable information older than that. (There’s probably something in the references sections of those papers, for instance.)
I of course accept the fact that information takes time to propagate, but the fact remains that I have been to specialist doctors for serious issues which have stated flat out that “nothing is known” – where they literally meant ”nothing is known”, which was completely contradicted by papers. Ten year old papers. Twenty year old papers. Fifty year old papers.
Again and again.
Certainly not all doctors are part of this culture. More than one time I have been present when a doctor who reads academic papers makes a decision based on that information which effectively saved a life.
Nonetheless, this hazard is a very real part of medical practicioner culture.
I certainly wouldn’t want a neurologist to treat last week’s news as gospel either. Absolutely not.
I just don’t know yet how to tell people how big this gulf can be between existing knowledge – established, proven, actionable knowledge – and what a given doctor acknowledges and/or doesn’t flat out deny the existence of.
Maybe this:
Anyone can read academic papers. In biology and medicine. Anyone. Really. And it is the minority of doctors who actually do so. I suggest that people verify doctors’ statements about the complete non-existence of knowledge about any given thing, should they make such statements. Read. Read as if lives were at stake.
—
Part of the reason doctors don’t read is that they are often overworked. They really, really are. (It’s not the only reason though.)
And: Of course!, reading science papers online IS NOT a substitute for medical training.
What I suggest people do is this: Help your doctors to help you.
With the utmost humility. As if lives were at stake.
I remember sitting trying to solve a problem to do with parent/child codes and modifiers, and I'd never had nothing come out, that was absolutely scary. 8 months later and I looked at it again and solved it so easily.
The big problem was that I'd always been able to hide my adhd symptoms, or at least 'clever' my way around them, and long covid / covid brain just laid them all bare.
Over 3 years after my first covid infection - still can't really taste or smell - I'm medicated for adhd, and I feel almost like how I was in March 2020.
I wonder how many people just fell into alcohol, isolation induced depression, sedentary lifestyle, weight gain, etc... and that their health decline had nothing to do with COVID.
When the pandemic hit I went the opposite. Focused on a healthy mind and body, was able to study a bunch and finally broken through a few mental plateaus.
But then I _got_ COVID and I can tell you COVID brain is real. Even after I had recovered physically there were a few weeks of obvious cognitive degradation. One of my first days testing negative I was trying to implement some pretty basic pagination logic but when it came time to writing the algos for it, it was like my body flipped a switch and I would get impossibly drowsy and have to go lie down.
I've had covid twice since then without the same problem but it is very real and wild.
Please forgive me for turning your words back on you: The issue with these statements such as yours is that they assume the non-existence of evidence that confirms that people’s experience is real.
there wasn't really much of a lockdown where I live, so I sincerely doubt that. Also I got COVID after the entire lockdown was over everywhere (2021), sooo no
After my startup failed and I broke up with my girlfriend, my cognition massively changed: I was less creative, less quick, and I could see it reduce my ability to code. Otherwise, I lost libido, had paranoia in social interaction, and alcohol or marijuana would cause me paranoia. When I would ride my motorcycle on curvy roads, or when I would play a racing game or read a book, I couldn't get into a flow anymore. Thinking about activities would stress me to the point that I would avoid doing anything.
After a number of years I feel normal, and I think it was due primarily to finding and sticking to a routine. The routine involves little things like watering plants and making coffee, and I just do them every day without thinking. Otherwise it includes exercise, sleep, chores, work, and procrastination.
I had to finish up my PhD while already working at a FAANG. My professor would keep stacking more stuff that he wanted to have in my thesis. It was a horrible time and I think I was very close to a burnout.
One thing that I later noticed was that I e.g. couldn't enjoy any music anymore. I always used to be able to be absolutely amazed by some tracks and dance to it at home - but during that time there was just nothing.
I recently quit my dev job because it was too stressful and I was burning out. I seemed to almost instantly get better at thrashing my motorbike in the twisties... I'm not sure why exactly but it feels like a weight was lifted and it just allowed me to focus and enjoy being in the moment a bit more.
Yeah, I found too I wasn't eating enough. I estimates I was eating around 1500-2000 calories regularly and I never really felt hungry. Once I started forcing myself to eat larger meals I felt a lot better and started feeling hunger again.
fyi, this can happen in a successful startup/business also. this happened to me when i was stressed out of my mind and stuck doing work i hate for customers i didn't want after 10 years of running a biz.
it took a breakup, a sale of the business, and nearly 2 years of doing nothing until i recovered.
fwiw, the biggest takeaways the whole thing taught me are 1. be careful of what you wish for and 2. both attractive women and customers want outcomes, they don't give a shit about your problems and 3. never forego vacations/holidays for work.
as for me, well - you know how the saying goes - it's always darkest before the dawn, and life is good now. for the time being. but i know that if i wake up one day and i'm feeling like a fucking pack mule for people who don't appreciate me, it's time for a massive rapid change, without the period of suffering this time.
> it's time for a massive rapid change, without the period of suffering this time
I massively agree, though I will make the mistake of staying for money again. Whenever I see I can work 3 years at A for every 1 year at B, I can't stomach the loss.
I’m prescribed trazadone for insomnia, and it’s magnificent. Virtually zero grogginess the next morning like I’d get from an anti-histamine, no compromise on sleep quality as the drug actually improves length and quality of REM sleep rather than negatively impacting it as many other sleep-aids do.
My kids have started taking swim lessons at the Y, so i've been sneaking up stairs to run a mile during their lesson. I've thought about strength training etc, but I have no idea what i'm doing on those machines.
Can't say I feel any different, but it is enjoyable.
Pretty much anything that makes your muscles feel sore and doesn't cause injury is worth doing.
IMO: most of what makes fit people fit is becoming aware of their body in detail: how to use muscles, how they work, what they feel like, what they should feel like when they're working together -- all of this builds a foundation where, if they lost their fitness, they would just get it back again.
So if you don't know what you're doing: just learn by doing. Pick something that it seems like your body should be able to do easily, but can't, and fix it. Repeat x100 and you'll be fit as hell.
You can start with bodyweight though. Pushups, pull-ups, etc. I recommend the YouTube channel FitnessFAQs or Calisthenicmovement for a good start there. No nonsense, direct guides with discussion of technique and injury avoidance.
I find the rowing machine is a great cardio+strength combo that you can make as comfortable as you like, and is very low impact (just keep good posture).
Running is a good start. Keep the distance increases reasonable to avoid injury. Enjoying it is important - no need to add anything else until/unless the running gets boring. (Yeah, weights can help, but like you said, can be overwhelming for somebody new to fitness)
It's not perfect, but it was great for getting into the habit 3 times a week. Now I often make up my own sets as I go, taking note of what's sore on me and what I feel could use some work. Doing that gave me the time to do research and get a bit more familiar with how to engage certain muscles, and what machines will do what for me.
> I have no idea what i'm doing on those machines.
Book some regular sessions with a personal trainer. He/she will give you a balanced basic routine and teach you good form.
I was fortunate to have an excellent PT when I first ventured into the gym age 19, a skinny, awkward, scared teenager. The structure of that gym program is still the basis of what I do 30 years later. Different exercises get incorporated, depending on my goals at the time, and variations in # of reps and sets. But still the same general approach.
Strength training is so good for desk jobbers! I recommend joining some small group circuit training or CrossFit groups, where the trainers will show you how to lift correctly and safely.
Just try some pushups, dips, pull ups, and sit ups. Just do a set of a few types each day until your strength is depleted and you will see strength gains.
"Exercise helps post-COVID cognitive decline and insomnia" is absolutely bro science, and especially since it can make the whole situation much, much worse.
That was never the claim. The claim was that it helps with brain fog and mental clarity in general, not specifically that caused by long-COVID, which had been proven to be true.
And a cursory look at the literature for PEM[1] will show you that the recommended path to recovery isn’t “avoid physical exertion at all costs”, but to do what you’re capable of and slowly ramp up the intensity, in which case small amounts of exercise could play a vital role.
Have a blood work checkup. Ensure you'll check vitamin and mineral levels, perhaps most notably vit D and iron. Also check ferritin and transferrin saturation (aids in pinpointing hemochromatosis ie iron overload, which for many leads to brain fog and fatigue and often shows up your age). Exercise regularly.
Holy shit this. I went years undiagnosed. Saw a dozen doctors. Couldn’t get an clear explanation for why I was always tired, brain fog, vision problems, joint pain, memory issues. The list goes on.
Then my _dentist_ of all people ordered a Watch-PAT take-home sleep test (took a lab sleep test, but it was useless) which finally revealed I was having more than 10 events per hour. The dentist made me a Herbst appliance to hold my airways open during sleep. My life is 100x better now.
This is one of the most frustrating things about the US. This shit is expensive. Sure, for a lot of us making bank in the software field we tend to lose sight of that. I got laid off (yay hyper-capitalist bonus chasing management). I'm reading this thread and seeing plenty of things that would be great from a health perspective but let's be real. They're all out of reach for me. Fortunately, that's temporary for myself. I'm sure I'll be back to making bank within a year or two. Most folks however? This advice will permanently be out of reach.
> I've noticed a cognitive decline in myself the past couple years.
How have you measured? I know people do decline cognitively in old age, but 30s is still young. I wonder if people only think they were sharper when younger. I knew much less in my 20s and made tons of mistakes. The mind has a peculiar way of highlighting good memories and downplaying the bad. The person I was in my 20s would not be able to do my current job.
My 30s self also runs circles around my 20s self when it comes to work (writing code), but I’m confident that’s thanks to the knowledge, experience, and wisdom that’s accumulated in that time.
If it were somehow possible to grant my 20s self these advantages, he’d run circles around me. Not just because he’s cognitively faster, but because he’s able to work for longer periods without feeling fatigued and can focus more deeply thanks to having fewer mental background tasks constantly running and not yet feeling the various time-related pressures that come with age.
Giving my teenage self current knowledge would also be interesting. Even though people aren’t cognitively complete yet at that point, at that age I had the ability to get lost in a project on a dime which was was amazing.
It is an extraordinary claim to say that people think as fast in their 30s as 30s. Billions of people have direct experience over thousands of years.
Yes, accumulated knowledge and wisdom can make you more successful with age.
It doesn't mean your fluid intelligence and ability to learn new things is keeping up.
Poor sleep causes significant cognitive impairments in memory, processing speed, etc. Restoring good sleep usually restores most cognitive function, depending on the extent of the sleep deficit. Get a sleep watch or device to track both duration and depth of sleep.
You might want to research Nicotinamide Riboside. I started taking it to see if it would help with painful inflammation in my hands, wrists, and knees and noticed that when I take it, not only is inflammation improved, but my sleep improved (I track with an Oura ring) and I can concentrate for longer periods of time.
Might all be placebo effect, but I’m okay with that. My doctor seems to think that’s probably the case.
It is a shame that NR is quite an expensive placebo, though. I've found similar results, but I have zero faith in it being some sort of anti aging agent in humans.
What makes you the arbiter of discussion? The article is about cognitive decline, this is an anecdote about personal cognitive decline that they believe happened to be caused by covid.
If you think every comment with a personal anecdote tangentially related to the article is “nonsense” and “r/x” material then you must be constantly frustrated by nearly every HN comments section of sufficient length.
It isn't, but at the same time pop culture isn't automatically low quality either. I think blind call to actions based on gut feelings without understand WHY those gut feelings exist are exactly the kinds of things we should discourage here.
I use the collorary for evaluating stuff like this. I care less about a high polished acedemic answer than I do about the resulting discussion not diving into a dumpster afterwrds. For here, I don't see a de-evolution into COVID denailism and anti-vaxxers or even random anecdotes of an off the hinge relative who died and the OP has to be like "I told him but he wouldn't listen", like I would on reddit. I see interesting discussion on a topic that is still a very hotly researched topic even in academia. Ways to potentially get checked or self help to mitigate effects.
No one is an expert on "long COVID" yet, so it's interesting to see experiences (and IMO, see how they age as we learn more about such phenomenon).
Agreed! Similarly, ice baths/cold plunges are a great way for me to mentally “reset” and clear up a little brain fog. Minimizing carbs has, for me, also helped. Not eliminating them mind you, but reeling my consumption of them in to a healthy level and focusing on proteins, fruits, veggies, etc for most of my caloric intake.
Are you taking vitamin d? If not you absolutely should. Magnesium at the same time as D3 and then glycine and another dose of magnesium before bed. This is the magic formula for me.
> Because vitamin D is so good at improving calcium levels, by taking it alone you could be working to increase the calcification of your arteries instead of strengthening your bones so make sure to include K2 in your vitamin D supplement regimen!
Vitamin K2 is what essentially takes calcium out of your blood and puts it in your bones (and teeth). It's something that's rather lacking in western diets and could be a big reason why people in western countries suffer so many bones injuries in old age (and why our teeth suck).
Please note that overtaking vitamin D is unhealthy as well. It’s a hormone and I believe taking too much is damaging to the liver. But supplemental and when having a lack of Sun is probably a good balance.
But if you can be in the sun your skin can make vitamin D.
Note that windows typically block the majority of the radiation that allows you to make vitamin D, so even if the sun hits you every day through your window, it's still not a good substitute for a sunny walk every once in a while. My doctor told me to go out at noon every day, but anything is better than nothing.
Walking doesn't help me for 8 months of the year: There simply isn't strong enough sun to help. December days are only 4-5 hours long anyway. So, I was told to take a supplement from September to May.
My doctor told me to get 15 minutes a day from May through the end of August - and these should be walks with at least the arms exposed (Am in Norway, so this isn't always possible for me, the immigrant). Walking alone isn't always enough.
I bought a load of UV-B flo tubes with a desert profile and rigged them up over my bed which would go upto the ceiling and then they would come down in order to bask under for hours. I could control how far away from me the lights were so I could move have them closer to me for a quick 30mins or have them further away for spending 2-3hrs underneath them.
I'd go to sleep under them, just dont have them too close to you though otherwise you will burn but never tan.
Nearly all Glass and Plastics block UV-B which is needed to make Vit D. UV-A found in tanning salons oxidises the melanin pigment aka the sun tan and melanin converts 99.9% of UV radiation and converts it into heat, so the suntan regulates how much pre-vitD can be made by the skin.
There is a corrugated plastic sheet (2mx1m) which allows UV-B through, but it needs replacing every few years as it breaks down and its expensive!
You have to go really overboard with vitamin D3 to take too much of it. The daily recommendations so far are underestimating it. 4000 IU should be fine for adults. There are people that take 6000-10000 IU, but it's hard to say whether they might be suffering from some long term effects due to this.
You should take vitamin K2 with D3 though.
>But if you can be in the sun your skin can make vitamin D.
This is harder than people say. You need UVB light to hit your uncovered skin (glass blocks it entirely). The sun needs to be above 35-50 degrees in the sky. If it's below that (like in winter or evenings) then you won't get vitamin D from it.
I doubt it is much to do with COVID. Mid 30’s is about the time when you have to start paying closer attention to things like sleep and exercise or everything starts to go to shit.
I'm in my early 40s, and do nothing specifically for my physical health. I don't have cognitive decline, I don't suffer from little issues at all, (someone once said that'll happen once past 40), some days I skip sleep entirely.
I also learn new stuff and program on projects, which are cognitively demanding, almost every single day. I don't regularly watch TV shows. On occasion I binge-watch something, only to stop it again for many months. I don't drink alcohol at all, but I consume small amounts of THC.
Your "mid 30s" claim might be true for people who are doing it wrong, which probably/likely is the vast majority, but there's absolutely no fair and objective way of putting an age on the beginning of cognitive or physical decline as if it was outside of ones personality responsibility/abilities to prevent it from happening until a much, much later age.
But ... to be the exception that agrees with the rule: If I lived how most people around seem to be living, I'd likely suffer from decline as well.
Not OP but I had terrible covid at 38y old around march 2020. My chest xray showed one of my lungs was really bad , and during 3 months I was feeling like crap (includingthe brain fog and all the stuff people mention).
Fast forward 3 years, I go swimming thrice a week, and it sucks that STILL my breathing hasn't recovered. If I try to take a lot of air for several times, I'll start coughing. I get out of air quickly... even though I have strength to keep swimming.
