This is a wall of text and links, most of which have nothing to do with my claims, or our discussion. I never said anything about whales or freshwater fish species. And I never claimed that _no_ fish populations are unsustainably fished, so finding a single one that is at risk is completely beside the point.
The only links that are sort of relevant are talking about "risk" of extinction, and frankly, I think that's kind of meaningless. Technically, every species on earth, including humans is at some level of "risk of extinction" from one thing or another. Considering how rare marine fish species extinctions are (especially caused by humans), I personally think we should be careful using that phrase. As someone who as actually done fishery population and health assesments, I can tell you that the phrase isn't much more than PR. It doesn't have any rigorous scientific meaning.
But even if that wasn't the case, the fact that some species in some places are at severe risk _still_ doesn't mean that commercial fishing everywhere is unsustainable. That's my entire point. That commercial fishing is extremely heterogenous. And it's _very_ easy to avoid bad fisheries and stick to good ones. Especially if you live in the US where _most_ fisheries are relatively sustainable managed (even more so if you stick to West Coast fisheries, which have some the best, most comprehensive and rigorous management policies on the planet).
You then moved on to freshwater fishes and whales, things I never mentioned. My guess is because those things are _actually_ at risk of extinction and so your case is much stronger. Unfortunately, they also have nothing to do with marine commercial fishing.
If you think that eating meat is immoral and you want people to stop for that reason, that's fine. But say that. Don't misrepresent the sustainability of commercial fishing.
> that commercial fishing everywhere is unsustainable. That's my entire point.
I never said that ALL fisheries are unsustainable. Your might be the one that isn't. One of many.
> freshwater fishes and whales ... they also have nothing to do with marine commercial fishing
Over 300,000 whales, dolphins and porpoises are killed as bycatch every year (seaspiracy.org/facts)
> If you think that eating meat is immoral ... But say that
I believe it's immoral to overlook the fact that our population has now reached 8 billion and to insist on consuming the same, or greater, amounts of meat in the face of environmental degradation and the very real threat of massive extinctions happening soon, especially when it isn't necessary. We're currently experiencing a massive, sixth extinction event, affecting 75% of all species, unless I'm mistaken. This process would typically take around 2.8 million years, but we're on track to accomplish it in about 100 years. And commercial fishing is imho a big part of the problem.
> Don't misrepresent the sustainability of commercial fishing.
"2.7 trillion fish are caught every year, 5 million every minute, studies estimate that up to 40% of all marine life caught is thrown overboard as bycatch, etc. etc."
"Six out of seven species of sea turtles (i know, not fish) are either threatened or facing extinction. In the USA, 250,000 sea turtles are captured, injured or killed every year by fishing, estimated 500,000 worldwide" (see seaspiracy for sources)
Your fishery practicies might be sustainable. Maybe. Time will tell. Maybe it won't matter at all.
You seem to have taken the Seaspiracy video at face value and just accepting everything they say. I'm a working marine ecologist, and I can tell you that _at best_ they are twisting tihngs to the worst possible interpretation. Documentaries are not fair and balanced descriptions of reality. ALmost ever. You should take what they say with massive heaps of salt.
As for "I never said ALL fisheries were unsustainable".
Yes you did. When you refused to acknowledge nuance and that some of them were fine, and to not tar the entire industry with a broad brush, that was you saying that they are all bad. You can't have it both ways. You are trying to now admit nuance, when admitting nuance is all I wanted from you from the beginning. If you are willing to admit they aren't all bad and some are sustainable, then don't call the entire industry destructive. None of your links is going to get around that one fact, and none of your links are refuting it.
"However, if it were balanced, fish populations wouldn't be in such a dire state. This suggests to an outsider that the majority of the industry is harmful, and as such, I have no sympathy for it at all."
See? The majority is harmful ... so some that are not.
> None of your links is going to get around that one fact, and none of your links are refuting it.
You don't agree with me ... then maybe you should present some arguments. If your industry is so good (in its entirety), so beneficial and protective, then there must be a lot of studies documenting its positive impacts on biodiversity and the conservation of our oceans.
> I'm a working marine ecologist
You've said that already. In a fishery. Are you happy with the state of our oceans? Do you feel that everything is fine? No problems on the horizon?
"It is difficult to get a man to understand something, when his salary depends upon his not understanding it."
Powerful quote. I resisted sharing it before, but now it seems almost necessary.
The only links that are sort of relevant are talking about "risk" of extinction, and frankly, I think that's kind of meaningless. Technically, every species on earth, including humans is at some level of "risk of extinction" from one thing or another. Considering how rare marine fish species extinctions are (especially caused by humans), I personally think we should be careful using that phrase. As someone who as actually done fishery population and health assesments, I can tell you that the phrase isn't much more than PR. It doesn't have any rigorous scientific meaning.
But even if that wasn't the case, the fact that some species in some places are at severe risk _still_ doesn't mean that commercial fishing everywhere is unsustainable. That's my entire point. That commercial fishing is extremely heterogenous. And it's _very_ easy to avoid bad fisheries and stick to good ones. Especially if you live in the US where _most_ fisheries are relatively sustainable managed (even more so if you stick to West Coast fisheries, which have some the best, most comprehensive and rigorous management policies on the planet).
You then moved on to freshwater fishes and whales, things I never mentioned. My guess is because those things are _actually_ at risk of extinction and so your case is much stronger. Unfortunately, they also have nothing to do with marine commercial fishing.
If you think that eating meat is immoral and you want people to stop for that reason, that's fine. But say that. Don't misrepresent the sustainability of commercial fishing.