I addressed the fact that you're conflating over a hundred years of systematic disenfranchisement with an some imagined flaw in Black culture. I've taught black kids and I've taught white kids, and there is not a cultural difference between them that explains why one group generally succeeds in life, while the other generally flounders.
> I remember reading about certain African-American immigrants being focused on education and doing fairly well
From the Harvard Business Review: "In the United States, where 13.7% of the population is foreign-born, immigrants represent 20.2% of the self-employed workforce and 25% of startup founders". So, this pattern shows up for immigrant communities in general, it is not evidence that Africans off the boat from Africa have a different culture that makes them more likely to succeed than their American counterparts that have lived in America for generations.
The idea that a historically disenfranchised group is unsuccessful due to certain "cultural values" does not hold water. It's just a way to ignore history, and in turn ignore and excuse existing biases.
How did the Chinese immigrants become so prosperous so quickly if not for their cultural values around hard work and education? It's not as if there was affirmative action for them at the time because they were disenfranchised or something.
Education matters. Black immigrants (from Africa, the Caribbeans, etc.) are doing pretty well. There may be some subconscious biases in hiring, but it's not significant.
I'm not ignoring history. I recognize that African-Americans have been heavily disenfranchised and discriminated against. I'm trying to find a way forward from here. If African-Americans achieve similar educational attainment, I think it's fair to say that we'll be on the path to achieving equality. As they become more successful, fewer people will have undue stereotypes about them. Now the problem becomes initiating the process of betterment. The government should pitch in, but that will do little good without a change in culture. Plants can't grow without light, even if there's plenty of water and nutrients.
> How did the Chinese immigrants become so prosperous so quickly if not for their cultural values around hard work and education?
> Black immigrants (from Africa, the Caribbeans, etc.) are doing pretty well.
You keep attributing immigrant success rates to "cultural values" when they should be attributed to the self-selection process of emigration.
If it is as you say, that a sample of immigrants is representative of their native population and their "cultural values", then you should see comparable poverty rates and earning rates in immigrants' native populations, adjusted for local economies. You do not see that. Immigrants tend to be more enterprising and hardworking, otherwise they would not undergo the immense challenge of immigration in the first place. This whole idea is as absurd as saying that American expats in Berlin or Paris are a representative sample of Americans, and their ability to thrive in another country is reflective of uniquely American "cultural values".
The fact of the matter is that those black immigrants have good educations and are doing well in the US, even if there is perhaps some bias in hiring. I'm talking about outcome here. So shift the culture of African-Americans here to focus on attaining good education, throw in government support and enforce race-blind policies (possibly favor poorer candidates that are acceptable), and I think there will be a similar outcome: within a few generations, equality should generally be reachable. I think that shift in culture is necessary and isn't widespread in African-American communities today.
> Immigrants tend to be more enterprising and hardworking
Yeah. So have the African-American populace at large match that.
> This whole idea is as absurd as saying that American expats in Berlin or Paris are a representative sample of Americans, and their ability to thrive in another country is reflective of uniquely American "cultural values".
I don't know what the financial situation of those expats are and how hard it is to live in Berlin or Paris, but if it is difficult then hard work is necessary, no? Whether that would be American cultural values is trickier to answer because of the diversity here.
You're fine with comparing African Americans to African immigrants, so let's now compare White Americans to African immigrants: most Americans are not highly skilled, while many African immigrants are. In your words, we should "have the American populace at large match that".
Seems like you're trying to get me to say something wrong. Anyways, I see nothing wrong with encouraging skilled work all around. I'm sure there are plenty of things to innovate on. For example, reducing dangerous manual labor or mitigating global warming. Maybe one day we'll be so advanced that few people will need to do work.
> Seems like you're trying to get me to say something wrong.
Listen, if you honestly thought that saying half the stuff you said was right, then I don't know where to start. Imagine landing an interview for a job that will significantly effect where you can afford to live, what you can provide for your kids, and your ability to retire. Now imagine that your hiring manager is making value judgements about you personally, that are based on unfounded opinions he has about how your "culture", and you're passed over for a candidate that comes from a "culture" that he holds in higher regard. This is a real life scenario for millions of Americans, every single day.
I don't even know you're drawing these conclusions from what I'm saying.
Here:
Result I'm looking for: Decent baseline of financial stability among African-Americans
Objective: Get educational attainment and good employment up
Major factors I think are necessary (for relatively quick results, anyways):
- culture shifts towards focusing on education
- government funds public schools in terms of materials, transportation, teachers, etc.
- reduce college tuition somehow
- race-blind hiring/whatever policies
I'm just trying to justify why I think the culture is important. There is evidence that culture is important. Furthermore, I'm saying that there's currently a lack of that education-focused culture and that's why e.g. Baltimore isn't doing too great even with all the funding.
So you should at most have an issue with
- culture shift necessary (which embodies "current culture not working")
I don't see where your evidence that culture isn't an important factor here is. Also, I'm not here to talk about historic grievances and bias and all that. I'm trying to discuss a way out, not bemoan the current circumstances or hope the world magically changes overnight.
> I don't even know [how] you're drawing these conclusions from what I'm saying.
That is abundantly clear. Here it is in a nutshell: *if* you accept that "culture is important," *then* you cannot have "race-blind hiring/whatever policies," *because* you have already accepted that one culture values hard work more than another culture.
When you reject that "culture is important," then you can hire individuals based on their merits, instead of the opinions you have about their culture. Making decisions about individuals based on opinions you have about their culture is the definition of racism.
When did I say to consider culture in hiring people? You're just putting words into my mouth. I'm saying culture is an important factor in getting African-Americans to be employed at good jobs, not that companies should consider a candidate's culture. If people start growing crops in hydroponic systems, end consumers won't care as long as the results are good. Wouldn't it be great if more and more African-Americans get quality education and it becomes less and less tenable for companies to have racist (perhaps unintentionally) hiring policies in the face of skilled work?
> I remember reading about certain African-American immigrants being focused on education and doing fairly well
From the Harvard Business Review: "In the United States, where 13.7% of the population is foreign-born, immigrants represent 20.2% of the self-employed workforce and 25% of startup founders". So, this pattern shows up for immigrant communities in general, it is not evidence that Africans off the boat from Africa have a different culture that makes them more likely to succeed than their American counterparts that have lived in America for generations.
The idea that a historically disenfranchised group is unsuccessful due to certain "cultural values" does not hold water. It's just a way to ignore history, and in turn ignore and excuse existing biases.