The interesting NABU was IMHO not these, but the NABU 1200. An early 8086 Unix machine. I got one at a garage sale in 1993 or so. It worked, and the Microsoft Xenix 1.0 was a direct port of V7 Unix from Bell Labs and quite educational in this respect precisely because it was still simple and understandable, compared to to the work station OS's of the time.
Proprietary no-source OS's were still common then, so binary patching the kernel to put in a different hard disk parameter table (to use a luxuriously large 20MB drive in place of the ST412 the machine came with - precious! Must not mess with the irreplaceable original OS image) was undaunting, especially with a .h file handy that gave the structure. Compiling "elvis" to get vi in the absolutely stripped down Minix mode, that used 63Kbytes of the maximum 64K of code space that executables could use... fun times. Of course back then you still had a hope of compiling current C with ancient pre-ANSI K&R C compiler. Most stuff that I ran on the machine didn't need much porting.
You know what I would truly love out of an AI/LLM ==
A crawler across everything tech which takes a comment such as yours, and then parses out all the systems/people/code/languages/companies/timeframe and builds a really good history of computing.
That would be absolutely beautiful.
AI Keeping its own evolutionary tree documented... and turned into a teaching platform.
I think "really good" is where we cross the point from LLM to AGI in that it can't just be a fancy autocomplete. It has to have decent model of readers to test various prose and structure options against to figure out which ones are "really good" for particular readers.
Considering the amount of people making up s** here by accident or on purpose, this would demand some very sophisticated level of cautiousness and plausibility-check, as also being able to follow the discussion to interweave corrections. This would demand a level of attention-detail and an understanding of human interaction at least on the level of a proper human historian IMHO.
But wouldnt it be better to focus the "attention to detail" on the details - and let the AI handle the fluff explainations for such - example would be to restrict the model to only research certain aspects of the prompt's intent...
So get a listing of languages, companies, technologies, industries, resources, supply chains - that can be directly tied to the evolution of computing - and let it web them together?
truly distopian wish. in your vision, knowledge would stop at the day we have that tech. nothing new will be added to the repository thilose llm parrot from.
for me, i rather we go back to having time and energy to write decently about our history so others can learn in the future.
The paragraph you've provided is rich with technology details, which offer a good opportunity to delve into the history of computing. Here's a summary of the key technologies, people, and companies:
1. *NABU 1200:* This is a somewhat obscure early PC built around the Intel 8086 processor. The NABU Network was a Canadian computer network that existed from 1983-1985. NABU PCs were designed for home use and offered unique connectivity options for the time.
2. *8086 Unix machine:* Intel's 8086 was a 16-bit microprocessor designed in the late 1970s, which was the basis for the x86 architecture. UNIX, a powerful multi-user, multi-tasking operating system developed in the late 1960s and early 1970s at Bell Labs, was often used in early computers with this processor.
3. *Microsoft Xenix 1.0:* This was Microsoft's version of the Unix operating system, licensed from AT&T in the late 1970s and released in 1980. Xenix was a direct port of V7 Unix from Bell Labs. The "1.0" suggests this is the earliest version of Xenix.
4. *Bell Labs:* The historic research and development company responsible for a host of important technologies and programming languages, including Unix, the C programming language, and others.
5. *ST412 hard drive:* This was an early model of hard disk drive produced by Seagate Technology in the early 1980s. It was one of the first 5.25-inch hard drives and had a storage capacity of 10 megabytes.
6. *K&R C Compiler:* This refers to the original version of the C programming language as defined by Brian Kernighan and Dennis Ritchie (hence "K&R") in their classic book "The C Programming Language" (1st edition published in 1978). It predates the ANSI C standard.
7. *Elvis and vi:* Elvis is a vi clone, vi itself being a visual text editor for Unix. It was written by Bill Joy in 1976 at Berkeley. The reference to "compiling 'elvis' to get vi in the absolutely stripped down Minix mode" refers to the process of building the Elvis software from its source code to run on the Minix operating system, a Unix-like system designed for teaching purposes.
8. *Minix:* A Unix-like operating system created by Andrew S. Tanenbaum for educational purposes. The first version of Minix was released in 1987.
Overall, this paragraph presents a snapshot of a transitional time in computing, when PCs were still relatively new, Unix was becoming more common on these machines, and software had to be patched and compiled from source code to run on specific systems. The timeframe seems to be early to mid-1990s, considering the user bought the NABU 1200 at a garage sale around 1993.
Are there many of these still existing? If I'm not set on having something Canadian, which would be a good model to look into? Would it be a good way to introduce a kid to computers / Unix / programming?
I learned to code on a TRS-80 Model 100, in BASIC, when I was 7 years old or so. Nothing Unix-like about it, but as an introduction to programming concepts I got a lot of mileage out of it. The upside is, there are no distractions, and it basically doesn't do anything except let you write text or short BASIC programs. It's essentially a big keyboard with a little chunky LCD display and it runs a long time on AA batteries. I dragged it everywhere with me as a kid, along with the BASIC manual, trying to figure out how to get it to do things. The portability was a big plus, cause I could just keep experimenting whenever I had ideas.
There's no point to running antiques any more, not when, for example, you can buy a reproduction PDP11/70 front panel that runs on a Raspi runnig an emulator running genuine V7 Unix!
You can probably emulate that pretty easily with a Raspberry Pi, which contains a huge amount more processing power, but I guess I understand how its just "not the same".
When I see things I like this, I immediately want them. But then I realize I would probably boot it a few times and put it to rest. I have many computing devices I don't use.
If we were to gift this in the most optimum way for a person who would actually put this machine into service...who would that be? What criteria make this the correct solution?
The living computers museum in Seattle was amazing. Volunteers maintained all kinds of computing devices there. Visitors to the museum got to interact with any of the devices.
I have such a bitter sweet relationship with retro computers. By that I mean the actual hardware itself, it is really cool to keep these things going but more and more the maintenance on these is a losing batter or it becomes a ship of theseus scenario in which so much is replaced the original is almost gone.
A few years back, I saw that a lot of my retro stuff was beginning to fail simply due to aging components. I donated what I could to those that could do something with it but it was kind of sad to see that non of this is going to be with us for a long time.
It is crazy in video games seeing stuff like PlayStation 1/2, Gamecube and Xbox DVD's are now starting to suffer from disc rot. It is looking like emulation or FPGA recreations by be the long path ahead if you want to experience as it was.
Another cool place to visit is the RE-PC on 6th street in Seattle, where they have a small retro computer museum. Years ago I got to watch the old guy who ran the place boot the PDP-8 there by toggling the boot code from (his) memory using the switches on the front.
There's also a re-pc in tukwilia near sea-tac with a small museum section. The unaffiliated recycled PC store in Tacoma has a bit of a museum section too, although a lot less inventory.
I still miss weird stuff in sunnyvale, but this will have to do.
Also in seattle - https://sdf.org/?tour/museum/index - SMJ giving tours himself at times. Most equipment functional, some even still continuously connected to the internet (at least through SDF's bubble). Been four to five computer generations since I've visited it tho..
A few years ago, my parents were downsizing and I wanted to find a respectful home for some of the amazing stuff he had in the garage, so we donated to the Vintage Computer Foundation: https://vcfed.org/artifact-donations/.
They don't take everything, but it felt better to give this to them than to have folks who didn't know these systems' import taking them to the dump.
Also highly recommend attending Vintage Computer Festival events if you get the chance.
> In our effort to preserve old-computers, and everything related to them, we are always looking for new systems ... Every minute an old computer is thrown away somewhere in the world ... Some are real museum pieces, and most deserve to at least be saved from destruction.
> Thus, we are looking for people willing to give us old computers, video game systems, books, or anything related to computing in general from the 70's to the mid 90's. Of course, we will pay the shipping costs !
> If we were to gift this in the most optimum way for a person who would actually put this machine into service
Like "gift it to Africa" where we send them a crate of useless computers with a note "you guys will love these! it's what I used as a kid (40 years ago)."
There is nobody on earth that will benefit from possessing one of these machines. Just let some collectors take a few, and then break them down for parts and materials.
Those collectors have taken a high-tech brick (it depended upon a proprietary and defunct network to function) and transformed it into a vintage computer that many people are enjoying -- some from bootstrapping it and others from diving into an obscure corner of history. Something tells me those machines are worth far more than their parts and materials.
I just had a flashback to 1984 when I was at Bell Labs when the Bell System was broken up and someone called me and said they "Found a building that had been misplaced" and that it was full of equipment they could not figure out what it was and if I could come and take a look to see what this stuff was. It was kind of funny, but that a company that size could misplace a warehouse full of old computer equipment is not exactly shocking. Most of it was old PDP11/70's and PDP8's, still in their original boxes and packaging, never opened or used. Even by then, it was pretty outdated having been surpassed by the Vax and 3B20's etc. But it was an amazing find. I told them it was old stuff and useless and to just sell it on the surplus market for whatever you can get.
It's a large quantity but it looks like the going price is about $120. I presume these were going out untested. So really, $60 sounds a bit cheap but really not unusual. The 2,000+ of them is the real crazy part.
Sadly, just because something is 40 years old doesn't mean it will fetch a high price. Especially microcomputers. There's a bunch of rare and also cheap ones.
Rare because almost nobody wants them and cheap for the same reason.
For an equivalent today, think about some low end random model android phone from the early 2010s. Both cheap and rare
> Sadly, just because something is 40 years old doesn't mean it will fetch a high price. Especially microcomputers. There's a bunch of rare and also cheap ones.
> Rare because almost nobody wants them and cheap for the same reason.
> For an equivalent today, think about some low end random model android phone from the early 2010s. Both cheap and rare
There was an episode of the Dead Zone that had a twist like this. The main character and some others were out in the woods and came across some people who took them hostage while trying to look for a plane that had crashed nearby a decade or two ago and was rumored to have really expensive cargo. In the end, they plane turned out to be full of computer chips that were high end at the time of the crash but virtually worthless in the present.
> Plus, they were essentially new. “It’s new old stock, but it is tested,” he says at the beginning of the clip. “I think the seller actually peeled the original tape off, tested it, and then taped it back up again.”
I think I was one of the last to score it at $100 a few days ago. It's been relisted at $120 and $180 and is now gone again. I assume this article will result in the full stock being sold shortly
The prices have only been going up because the supply has been dwindling down. When he started selling them at first, it was $59.99, but he is now down to less than 100 units. He is likely basically out at this point.
I think the fascinating bit is that ebay locked down his account to "verify they were actually his to sell."
Which seems an awful lot like "we're just going to, uh, you know, hang on to the ~$28,000 you just made. For a couple of months."
Was he still responsible for shipping the orders while they held onto his money? Not everyone can afford to just shovel out the shipping and labor needed to do that.
Has anyone been through this who will talk about what it involved?
Years ago I set up a business PayPal account after selling through my personal for years. After taking orders, I pulled in $13k in a few days and went to pay my suppliers, only to find PayPal had frozen my account for suspected fraud. I had already provided all the tax information and so on, but they insisted on freezing my account for 12 months!
Magnanimously, they allowed me to withdraw $300 per month. After 6 months, PayPal let me take out 600 per month.
In the end it took 2 years to get the money out, and I shut down the account and never touched a PayPal merchant account again.
In the meantime, I kept my business going by selling through Stripe and front loading enough sales to ship the orders for the earlier customers. Was a fun time!
So while it wasn't through eBay, like this seller, I would say he's very fortunate to reach someone in support there with a brain and common sense.
Author here. I didn’t talk about this in detail in the piece out of respect to James, but long story short, it was messy. But on the other hand, it gave him a chance to ship the sudden backlog of units he had (560 units in three days!).
He did sell the devices on his website in the meantime.
There were other systems like that. I used to find terminals for "101 Online" in Silicon Valley surplus stores. This was a US attempt to use Minitel technology.[1] There was the whole North American Presentation Level Protocol Syntax [2] thing, which was like having your terminal talk .SVG. Lots of dead ends from that era.
Whenever I read things like this I think less about the items in question and more, "How is it these people get thousands of square feet of cheap or free industrial storage space for decades... and I can't find a shop to setup in for less than $XXXX k a month...."
i am most fascinated by the bidirectional cable connection that his device was using. it shows that with more investment we could have had something like the internet 15-20 years earlier.
so the primary roadblock for development at the time was cost, not capacity.
i believe today most development happens at max capacity, because cost is no longer much of an issue.
Author here. It was fascinating technology but in some ways it was aspirational. It was a bidirectional device at a time when the network itself could only talk in one direction.
The hope among NABU developers was that the service would become popular enough that cable services would upgrade. That ultimately did not happen, because the service itself did not become popular enough for that.
I mean, this service had Tom Wheeler, coming right off of being the head of the cable industry’s trade group, running this in the U.S., and even he could not get the industry to move faster.
The Internet (ARPANET) had been in existence for a few years by the time these came to market. How would a product release after the Internet existed somehow make the Internet exist any earlier?
Consumer-facing internet wasn't widely available at the time.
I'm not sure if this represented the potential to sell people on the Internet, or just on online services as a whole. As I understand it, the NABU platform was still (in its original form) a walled-garden, just like CompuServe, The Source, or GEnie in the same era, or even the Minitel-style platforms in Europe. The unique proposition of connecting to another system ran by an unrelated party was still not there.
If we roll it back to "this might have kickstarted adoption of online services", that's an interesting discussion.
From my perspective, I think people were averse to early online services because most dial-up online services were extremely expensive before the 1990s. A few dollars an hour adds up fast especially at low bandwidth. I can recall my family getting its first PC (~1992 or so) and being warned never to click the icons for AOL (the early GeoWorks based version) or the terminal emulator due to cost concerns (although it would have been moot because the PC didn't have a modem!)
Part of that was that a lot of the walled-garden services used existing commercial timesharing networks for access, and those were priced for people whose business was paying for it. In the NABU design, the infrastructure was owned by the cable firm in the first place, and there's no risk you're pushing off a better-paying customer. What did the price plans look like? If they had treated it as an unlimited, flat-rate package, then adoption would have been a lot higher.
I also understand at least some forms of the NABU system were aggressively unidirectional-- a lot of the software was on an 'endless loop' where you waited for what you wanted to cycle past again to start downloading it. That probably helped keep the infrastructure costs manageable, only the much smaller upstream link needed to be managed on a per-user basis.
> Part of that was that a lot of the walled-garden services used existing commercial timesharing networks for access, and those were priced for people whose business was paying for it.
Cable television deployments were completely unidirectional. A cable headend typically pulled in a satellite feed and injected that into their coax. There was no upstream connection at the client side and more importantly no upstream at the headend. Cable companies didn't need so didn't have upstream links so they weren't just lying around waiting for some service to use them.
So a counterfactual NABU online service would have needed cable headends upgraded with 1) bidirectional transceivers and 2) the headend offices would need long distance backhaul. Early online services were expensive in part because that backhaul was expensive. A counterfactual NABU service would have needed that same expensive backhaul.
Surprising to see that "Miner 2049er" game loading screen - I wrote Miner 2049er, but for the Vic-20 back in '82. I wonder if someone else ported it? I shipped the game with the source code, so people could muck with it, as people did back then...
>Are there any specific vintage computers one should definitely buy immediately if the opportunity comes up?
Several times I felt the impulse to buy old hardware such as Commodore C64, Commodore Amiga, Atari ST, some Z80 ZX Spectrum clones, HP Jornada, Nokia Communicator, 386 Laptops, but I am glad I didn't. I would have played one or two days with each and I would have lost interest after, so that would mean loss of money and storage space.
The one of your childhood experiences (I bought an old ADI 14" CRT monitor, nothing special but it looks almost identical to the one I used until ~2008), or teenager envy (my small collection of Voodoo 2 cards I found for free in the early 2010s, and I took them because I SO wanted them and could not afford them in ~1998... now I can play those game in beautiful Glide mode instead of simply software rendering), or the one that spark your interest for some reason (say, Unix workstations of the 90s, because as soon as you boot one up it feels like $HOME, even if a machine is almost 30 years old).
There is no inherently "great" retrocomputer: they're mostly all old crap. Sure, you can make money if you buy a SGI Octane low and resell it high, but it's pretty hard to get one for a low price... and I would get emotionally attached to it anyway.
That's weird, I see the same (and I read that thread a few days ago). I see the top comment as from 4 hours ago but then in the user's history it's from 4 days ago.
the HN mods "re-upped" this submission, which works by pretending that it was submitted later (and hence the ranking calculation treats it as new etc). It also fudges how the timestamps appear on the page. (presumably because otherwise people would be confused why a post from an hour ago has comments made 4 days ago)
On the user pages this doesn't happen and it shows the original time.
Altering public timestamps, with the effect of claiming that a particular person said a particular thing on a different day than you know they actually did, is potentially very bad.
It is very bad, period. I love HN but I am seriously considering to not ever come here because of this. Please PG, can you not claim publicly that I say things at a given time, if I don't do that?
I’ve seen this with other posts in the past. I’m glad somebody else is acknowledging it. I was having a major “Mandela effect” feeling when I noticed it.
> For those reading this who haven’t bought a new-in-box retro computer lately, $59.99 is fall-out-of-your-chair cheap, but Pellegrini has largely avoided price-gouging. Only recently did he increase the price to $99.99.
Looks like they've raised prices a few times since. Latest listing by them is at $180:
Author here. The key differentiator is the use of cable, which was at least 15 years ahead of its time. While the service itself was capable of bidirectional communication like a modem, it was often on one-way networks because the technology had not been upgraded.
Quantum Link and Prodigy are likely the most common comparison points, though this used a proprietary platform for much of its life, leaving out people who already owned, say, an IBM PC or C64.
Probably comparable to Quantum Link: an online service that served a homogeneous network of home computers through custom client software that allowed for running arbitrary executable code.
Proprietary no-source OS's were still common then, so binary patching the kernel to put in a different hard disk parameter table (to use a luxuriously large 20MB drive in place of the ST412 the machine came with - precious! Must not mess with the irreplaceable original OS image) was undaunting, especially with a .h file handy that gave the structure. Compiling "elvis" to get vi in the absolutely stripped down Minix mode, that used 63Kbytes of the maximum 64K of code space that executables could use... fun times. Of course back then you still had a hope of compiling current C with ancient pre-ANSI K&R C compiler. Most stuff that I ran on the machine didn't need much porting.