> If we play with the arbitrary 12-week line you've drawn
The situation in the US is generally worse, and is a humanitarian situation that is concerning for us in Europe.
If you've ever been pregnant or known someone who has been, there's a huge difference between week 6 and week 12. 1 in 3 people only know they're pregnant after 6 weeks. That difference alone means that before 12 weeks you almost definitely know you're pregnant, but at 6 weeks you have a high chance of not even knowing.
> it makes sense to preserve the notion of life that follows from them, the one that you're arguing against for some reason.
I'm arguing against the peculiarly Christian definition of human life. Debates over Christianity are a defining feature of Western culture.
> Pain is irrelevant to the question of humanity.
I agree. It's mostly a question of how Christian you are (or influenced by Christianity).
> The Malikis, for instance, believe that a fetus is ensouled at the moment of conception
That may be the case, but I didn't say that the belief that a foetus is a person is solely Christian, just largely Christian (and, possibly, Buddhist).
> I think it's hard to make the argument that most peoples consider a fetus as something totally unrelated to human life
I didn't say it's totally unrelated to human life. Intentionally maiming one's finger, say, is also related to human life, but an observant Jew who would neither condone abortion nor self mutilation without good reason would still find it strange to think of a foetus or a finger as a baby.
> are in agreement
They are not in agreement that a foetus is a person at all. That is the only point I've been trying to make. And it is the religious belief that a foetus is a person that raises the temperature of that particular debate in majority Christian countries, even compared to other countries with traditions that may forbid abortion for reasons other than "fetal personhood"
> Is it possible that you're projecting your own cultural background on to others?
> there's a huge difference between week 6 and week 12. 1 in 3 people only know they're pregnant after 6 weeks. That difference alone means that before 12 weeks you almost definitely know you're pregnant, but at 6 weeks you have a high chance of not even knowing.
So now the line is 6 weeks? How many states does that apply to? Again, keep in mind that the most populous country in Western Europe restricts abortion completely.
> I'm arguing against the peculiarly Christian definition of human life. Debates over Christianity are a defining feature of Western culture.
It has been repeatedly demonstrated that this isn't particularly Christian. I'm not a Christian and agree with it, along with many others[1]. I'd go so far as to argue that the fetal personhood meme in Europe has less to do with psalm 139 than the cultural and philosophical traditions that Christianity inherited when grafted onto European civilization, in which there was already a notion of fetal personhood.
We know that in European antiquity abortion was uncommon; birth and then infanticide was preferred as safer for the mother, and both were seen as much the same thing. If we look at Rome, for example, abortion rights were commonly viewed as intrinsically granted by a father's right to kill his children. There were popular thinkers philosophical movements like stoicism that did draw such a distinction, of course, and their number included no less than Aristotle himself, up to a certain point in the pregnancy. We also have the works of Soranus of Ephesus which explain that many physicians would refuse to perform abortions on the basis that harming a child conflicted with the Hippocratic Oath. Soranus placed himself squarely in the "other camp", hardly extreme pro-choicers, but emphasizing that abortion should be performed by trained physicians in extenuating circumstances. The "safe, legal, and rare" of antiquity. This is, by the way, my own view as well.
What we see, historically, around the world is a general "devaluing" of human life as such compared with today. Practices like exposure were common. The infirm and the elderly could be killed much as children could. And this was reasonable. I put "devaluing" in quotes, because it was more an acceptance that sometimes individual lives had to be traded for the collective good. Those who consumed resources without contributing to their production could be fatal when times were hard. We can see coping mechanisms towards infanticide in stories about changelings and such. And I think that the "unpersoning" of the fetus is a similar coping mechanism. It's a way for those who are pushed into such circumstances to move on.
> They are not in agreement that a foetus is a person at all.
They are. This has been demonstrated for Christianity, Buddhism, and Hinduism, as well as sects of Islam. Your own insistence that they don't observe fetal personhood whatsoever is just as much an assertion of fact, and thus far hasn't been backed up.
> the most populous country in Western Europe restricts abortion completely.
Depending on how you define Western Europe, the most populous country is either Germany or the UK. Both offer abortion for practically any reason within 12 or 24 weeks, respectively, and for health reasons even later. BTW, the cost is covered by the state or statutory insurance (depending on need) in both countries.
> How many states does that apply to?
Texas, Florida, Tennessee, Wisconsin and quite a few others. About 15% of Americans.
> And I think that the "unpersoning" of the fetus is a similar coping mechanism.
I respect other people's spiritual beliefs, but you need to understand that as someone who grew up in a Jewish home, the thought that a foetus is a person sounds as foreign to me as the thought of a tree as an ancestral spirit or of a communion wafer transmuting into the body of Jesus. I know there are people who actually believe such things because of long traditions, but it's impossible for me to believe in them.
> Depending on how you define Western Europe, the most populous country is either Germany or the UK. Both offer abortion for practically any reason within 12 or 24 weeks, respectively, and for health reasons even later. BTW, the cost is covered by the state or statutory insurance (depending on need) in both countries.
I mean Germany, where abortion is illegal at all times by default. Exceptions are another thing, but if we’re talking about actual line-in-the-sand “abortion is now illegal at this point” then Germany draws that line at zero weeks. And accounts for a little over 10% of Europe’s population. Then there’s Poland and others which I’m sure can make up the difference.
The line that's drawn is that abortions are regularly performed in Germany up to 12 weeks for pretty much any reason, and later for health reasons. Yes, the way that law is stated is weird, but that is what it means in practice. As the WHO summarises it for non-Germans, "Abortion is legally permissible in Germany on request up to 12 weeks, and thereafter in certain circumstances."
The situation in the US is generally worse, and is a humanitarian situation that is concerning for us in Europe.
If you've ever been pregnant or known someone who has been, there's a huge difference between week 6 and week 12. 1 in 3 people only know they're pregnant after 6 weeks. That difference alone means that before 12 weeks you almost definitely know you're pregnant, but at 6 weeks you have a high chance of not even knowing.
> it makes sense to preserve the notion of life that follows from them, the one that you're arguing against for some reason.
I'm arguing against the peculiarly Christian definition of human life. Debates over Christianity are a defining feature of Western culture.
> Pain is irrelevant to the question of humanity.
I agree. It's mostly a question of how Christian you are (or influenced by Christianity).
> The Malikis, for instance, believe that a fetus is ensouled at the moment of conception
That may be the case, but I didn't say that the belief that a foetus is a person is solely Christian, just largely Christian (and, possibly, Buddhist).
> I think it's hard to make the argument that most peoples consider a fetus as something totally unrelated to human life
I didn't say it's totally unrelated to human life. Intentionally maiming one's finger, say, is also related to human life, but an observant Jew who would neither condone abortion nor self mutilation without good reason would still find it strange to think of a foetus or a finger as a baby.
> are in agreement
They are not in agreement that a foetus is a person at all. That is the only point I've been trying to make. And it is the religious belief that a foetus is a person that raises the temperature of that particular debate in majority Christian countries, even compared to other countries with traditions that may forbid abortion for reasons other than "fetal personhood"
> Is it possible that you're projecting your own cultural background on to others?
I expect we all do to some degree or another.