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A case for toe socks (herman.bearblog.dev)
239 points by kevincox on June 21, 2023 | hide | past | favorite | 371 comments



>Every now and again (say I enter a house which has a no-shoe rule), someone will spot them and find the concept strange,

I find it more strange that people wear outside shoes inside. The same shoes that go on dirt, mud, who knows what else are used to walk on your floors and carpets.

Taking your shoes off at the door prevents a lot of dirt/who-knows-what from entering the house.


There are cultural differences.

Where I was born in a European country, it was positively unthinkable. Nobody ever wore outside shoes inside. In fact, my grandma would be upset if I set in my daily jeans upon my bed - jeans that set in school seat, street car seat, benches, dirt, etc, should not be in contact with where I'll sleep.

In USA and Canada, it seems to largely be an instinct to say "Don't take off your shoes, please!" out of politeness.

I think there are other aspects too, though they get fuzzier.

In my country/childhood, kids were discouraged from playing on the floor in unfamiliar places. I observe less of that in Canada. Most dogs were "outdoor animals", whereas here dogs are pervasively inside. Many people sleep with dogs in their bed!! Completely crazy to me and completely normal to my Canadian wife :-)


> In USA and Canada, it seems to largely be an instinct to say "Don't take off your shoes, please!" out of politeness.

As a Canadian, I think every household I've been in you take your shoes off at the door. Experience limited to Ontario and every province east of it.


> Experience limited to Ontario and every province east of it.

In that case I'll chip in with my experience with every province west of it: it's the same. No shoes inside - ffs the prairies have snow on the ground half the year.


Canada is where the term “mud room” comes from I think, it definitely isn’t an American invention


Most American houses where I live have mud rooms. I think you may be generalizing based on house design. New Englanders certainly do; Ranches do not. Split-Levels have a landing that are used as a mud room.


I think they are common in the midwest? Wherever it snows a lot, you'll have a mud room to change from outside to inside clothes. If you are somewhere that doesn't snow, you might not ever realize those kinds of rooms exist.


It's definitely a thing in many parts of the Old World too.


I’ve lived in Ontario and every province West of it and… same thing.


That's also my experience in the US.


> In fact, my grandma would be upset if I set in my daily jeans upon my bed - jeans that set in school seat, street car seat, benches, dirt, etc, should not be in contact with where I'll sleep.

This. And not only where you sleep. Public transport seats or even chairs that were used by many, many people over the years are just yuck. Same with door handles (i so hate the Americanbones - you can't use your elbow or wrist to push them!), public transport, handrails, ATM pinpads...


> Public transport seats or even chairs that were used by many, many people over the years are just yuck. Same with door handles (i so hate the Americanbones - you can't use your elbow or wrist to push them!), public transport, handrails, ATM pinpads...

At what point do you come to the terms with our inability to eliminate all germs and get on with life? I apologize if it's a condition and not just a preference.


Lmao agreed. Some people are grossed out by the thought of an object being used by other people and not because of any scientific concern about disease. It’s a psychosomatic condition


I opted specifically for a fixed office desk as i don't share my keyboard / mouse with others, and it grosses me out if people use mine or i have to use theirs.

Laugh all you want, just observe the typical shiny keycaps of most people's keyboards. You won't find those on mine, i wash hands frequently.

Btw: i bet quite some of you who are laughing about my 'regulations' just started to wash hands and wear masks because the CDC etc. told you so, and saw no issues with it.


LMAO


I'm sorry but if you set foot in my clean house you clean your hands and keep your shoes away from my clean floor. God knows where you've been and what you've touched before


Don't put that finger in your ear - you don't know where that finger's been!


Also, don't breathe any air. Some of the molecules in it have been exhaled by other people.


Can't tell if sarcastic or not.


I eat unwashed roadside fruits, stuff from fields, etc. am not too picky re: freshness of foods etc., use public pools (...just hope people really shower before they dive in) or the office / restaurant restroom, etc.

Just don't have an desire to sit in seats where bums and people with god-knows-what conditions have been, or hold onto rails touched by people scratching their butt. Washing hands frequently, espeially after handling cash + followed by having a snack. Didn't your parents teach you that?

Not having issues with dirt etc., if it is MY dirt. How many strangers to you willingly exchange frsh or dried bodily fluids with?

Also a reason i have absolutely no intention to ever visit India, if i don't have to for business reasons. And i've walked Ethopian streets.


Good way to develop autoimmune disorders.


I've seen people work themselves into knots trying to figure out how a house could possibly be clean enough to walk around in one's socks. That indoor floors are somehow so intrinsically dirty that one simply must keep one's shoes on to avoid contamination. And I always wanted to ask: How else would we keep our floors clean?


I wear socks indoors so I can use them to clean my floor.


Ah don't stress so much, your feet brewing in your unwashed shoes probably breed more bacteria then the soles of your shoes pick from a walk.

And if not, a bit of exposure to germs is fine.

Most diseases are hand and air transmitted.

And in my anecdotal experience germ freaks are more suck then dirty people. But maybe I'm just biased.


Ha, I used to live in a condo with all hardwood floors, and we only ever wore shoes in the entryway by the front door (to take them on and off).

When I'd mop the rest of the condo with those disposable Swiffer mop pads, the mop pads would only get a little dingy, but when I'd mop the one specific part of the entryway where we wore shoes, the mop pads would instantly turn dark grey, almost black.

No shoes in the house. Ever!!!


> In USA and Canada Not in Canada. I have never visited a home in Canada where the practice is NOT to take your shoes off in the mud room.


I believe it largely what climat you are living in and also you grew up. Places where snow and rain is common pretty much always expect you to take shoes off. Places where weather is dry are more likely to accept shoes on.

Also people who come from wet places to dry places will still not want anyone wearing shoes at their homes.


Canadian here - every household I've been in is take shoes off at the door. I think it's culturally built in most places that experience a lot of snow. If for half the year your taking off your boots you get in the habbit of taking off your shoes too.


Canadian here, from the warm part, where we only see snow a few days a year. We're still all taking our shoes off, except degenerate college students and recent American immigrants.


> In USA and Canada, it seems to largely be an instinct to say "Don't take off your shoes, please!" out of politeness.

I'm in Canada and this is true, but I've found that this is usually said when I'm already far enough into taking my shoes off that it would be too weird to go "alright then" and put them back on. I also find it awkward to keep my shoes on in someone else's house. As if I'm some sort of special guest with special privileges that allow me to bring dirt into their house, while the owner of the house clearly isn't wearing outside shoes. I would actually much prefer someone saying "please take your shoes off", and avoid the whole awkward and illogical politeness ritual.

edit: I forgot to say, I am in Canada (Quebec), but not Canadian, so it's probably also a cultural difference that makes me feel this way. I am from the Netherlands, where wearing your outside shoes in the house is very unusual. Someone telling me to keep my shoes on in the house is almost like someone telling me "please don't wash your hands" after going to their bathroom.


Canadian culture is indeed structured around awkward and illogical politeness rituals which can make you crazy. And for the most part they are more like "politeness signalling", just a façade of niceties without any actual kindness or consideration behind them. In the end I had to leave because it amounts to a kind of omnipresent cultural gaslighting.


I have caught other people's colds a lot of times, but I don't think I have ever gotten sick from dirt exposure.


Anecdata, and an extreme case nonetheless but:

I once triggered a pretty severe allergic reaction from my partner because of the pollen and dust I unintentionally brought inside after working out in the yard all day.


From the shoes?


Sorry -not just from shoes, from clothes too. (apologies, I unintentionally framed this response with context from sibling replies)


How would you know?


I believe this question extends to any claim of what didn't happen.

We make an educated guess, try to collect data in a study that is hopefully a bit controlled, then paint a picture of what we think it means and why things happened (or didn't happen).


I immigrated to SE Asia, certainly it was very different.

99% of indoor surfaces (and some outdoor areas too) are tile floors, or polished concrete/granite/terrazio. These are really easy to keep clean by just sweeping for 5 minutes. The few carpets I've seen were always really gross. No way I'm taking off my shoes to walk on that!

We don't wear shoes/sandals or socks indoors overall. It's normal to walk barefoot, even at many workplaces.

Socks are a weird thing that we wear to travel somewhere cold, or if we have to wear shoes for some reason (very formal events or workplaces, or for safety). Some people wear socks to sleep.

Sometimes we have a separate set of sandals to wear in the bathroom. You take those off before entering the rest of the house.

The other use of sandals is a form of low-damage ammunition for parental authorities to launch at you. We have a lot of memes about this.


> In USA and Canada, it seems to largely be an instinct to say "Don't take off your shoes, please!" out of politeness.

Yes, but then you take them off anyways, out of politeness.


well, you take them off because usually "don't take off your shoes" is itself only said out of politeness, and they really would rather you take your shoes off — Canadian logic.


I can't speak for America, but

> but then you take them off anyways, out of politeness

...as is the Canadian way


>Most dogs were "outdoor animals", whereas here dogs are pervasively inside. Many people sleep with dogs in their bed!!

In the America I grew up in, dogs were almost always outdoor animals, and people did NOT sleep with them (how gross).

That changed somehow in the last 20 years. Now it seems like half of Americans sleep with a dog.


I think I'm surrounded with absolutely deranged dog people. I think every person in my friend and work group with a dog sleeps with them in their bed. It's totally insane to me. I am not exactly a fan of most pets in general, but if I owned a pet, they definitely wouldn't be allowed in my bedroom. When I tell this to my friends they always say, "Oh, just you wait, you won't be able to resist." I'm certain that I would prefer to have my own space, thank you very much.


>When I tell this to my friends they always say, "Oh, just you wait, you won't be able to resist."

This reminds me of some sci-fi movies I think, such as "Invasion of the Body Snatchers". Also cults.


Probably happened at the same time people started referring to themselves as their dogs “mom” or “dad”. I love dogs, but you are not their parent.


This may raise a lot of hackles (pun unintended but retained), but IMO, that practice, and the one just above (the mom/dad and bed points) may be being done (grammar?) as a substitute to having good human relationships, due the somewhat common phenomenon of alienation that seems to exist for some people nowadays (anecdotal, just observed by me, but also heard others talking about it, including with me). And by relationships, I don't mean just a male-female or other intimate relationship.


I'm not sure, that kind of alienation is common in younger people in the Western world, whereas the dog mommy/daddy seems to be an English-speaking (if not American) phenomenon, and used by adults.

I am a Millennial from Europe, and I am well acquainted with the alienation of my generation, but the dog mommy thing doesn't exist in the country I'm from, and sounds something a suburban mom in her 40s would say. It makes me cringe.

I had dogs and cats growing up, and I considered my "mates" or friends rather than my children. They lived in the house, able to come and go outside, but were absolutely forbidden from sleeping on beds (except cats when the beds are empty because they don't care) or from soliciting food at the table while we were eating.


I’m not saying you can’t treat your pet well, or even spoil them sometimes. They are friends, they may even be “family”. They are complete individuals in their own right. But they aren’t human. Lately I’ve been wondering if treating them as children is bordering on animal abuse.


> the same time people started referring to themselves as their dogs “mom” or “dad”

That whole thing seems to beg some uncomfortable questions. I mean yes, I'm of WV descent but that isn't how we get our pets.


I’m Canadian and have lived in the Atlantic provinces as well as Ontario. I have never seen anyone wear shoes inside aside from workers who are required to have steel toed boots on.


> In fact, my grandma would be upset if I set in my daily jeans upon my bed

Your grandma and my mom would have gotten along.


Working from home has only increased the distinction for me: Not only do the shoes come off (like always) but unless I anticipate going back out soon, I'll switch from denim jeans to lounge/sleepwear, jacket to hoodie.

So today I identify a lot with Mister Rogers' opening show routine, despite how elaborate it seemed to my younger-self.


Don't stop there: How to Feel Better Naked https://www.nytimes.com/2022/06/17/well/live/feel-better-nak...


This is probably the main reason I look forward to empty nesting. If I'm in my bedroom, I'm nude. I am thrilled with the prospects of expanding that boundary.

It's so annoying to "suit up" for the sake of my innocent and unsuspecting children just so I can grab a glass of water and avoid assaulting them with my hideous form.

The missus on the other hand, well she's on her own.


> It's so annoying to "suit up" for the sake of my innocent and unsuspecting children just so I can grab a glass of water and avoid assaulting them with my hideous form.

This seems to be a very cultural thing too... growing up in Europe I saw my parents/grandparents/aunt/uncle naked plenty of times while I was at home or staying over with my cousins. Nudity around family was normal and expected.

This led to being more accepting of ones own body as well and not necessarily seeing nudity as intrinsically linked to "bad".


I would definitely agree. There is a good amount of puritanical shame when it comes to nudity in the U.S. which I don't identify with.

I don't really have an issue with my own body and do everything I can to instill body positivity within my kids. On the other hand, I think it's important to be considerate of their wishes, and recognize while it's perfectly natural (i.e. not "bad"), that doesn't mean it's pleasant. I'm American after all... lots of lumps, loose skin, and hair where it doesn't make much sense :)

I am slightly scarred by memories of the sudden and unexpected emergence of a nude parent.


Also, one time after a sleep over my dad came out of the master fresh from his shower to go fetch clean clothes from the dryer, wearing not a thread.

My friend was eating cereal at the table and blew it everywhere upon the sight. Good times.


I often stayed overnight at the home of an uncle who slept in either standard issue whitey tighties, or just nude.

On more than one late night, he was forced to come and whisper yell at me and my cousins along with whatever friends happened to be there as well to quiet down. Anyone who didn't live there found it hilarious to no end. It only served to energize us, rather than the intended calming effect.

At 10 it was pretty difficult to take seriously anyone with wild bed hair and a bare ass, or cartoonish underwear for that matter.

I still giggle 25 years later picturing his angry silhouette sauntering away mumbling under his breath.


Unfortunately I'd expect this could get someone in the US arrested today.


>growing up in Europe

It is not like Europe is a "same thing".

Common habits in Finland or Sweden (say) are very different from (still say) Italy or Spain.


I've gotten to the point where when I put on jeans, my dog gets excited (assuming that we're going for a walk).


I do find pets amusing. If you have a dog, all of the concerns most people voice about shoes applies to the dog. And they often seem to seek out poop to step in. We've been forced to bath our dog because he found coyote scat and thought that was good to wear.


All the while they ignore the litter box... And flush their human toilets with the lid open...

The world's a gross place. I know it's unavoidable for some (e.g. OCD) but by and large, I tend to think people spend an inordinate amount of time pursuing an unreasonable level of cleanliness.


Anecdotally, this checks. Shoes off, dog sits on the couch, dog’s habits fall under the field of bacteriology.


It's like fuzz testing for your immune system.


As a child I had to wash our dog's paws in winter/wet weather and a quick wipe otherwise. Dirt is dirt, nobody wants to walk on dirt at home.


Counterpoint: I have indoor-only shoes, and I feel a lot like Mr. Rogers when I put them on. I put them on while working from home because it dramatically increases the likelihood that I will take a break and walk on the treadmill during work.


This is what I do. They're technically "slippers", but they have actual soles so I consider them slip-on shoes.


Here in the South we call them "house shoes".


I love my pair of house shoes. I think I like my winter ones more and was sad to put them away in February.


I just run on my treadmill in socks.


does this not cause grip issues?


Not at all, the treadmill is pretty grippy. I'd do it barefoot but the rough treadmill surface actually gave me friction burns the few times I tried it.


People run marathons without shoes, so I don’t think grip would be an issue.


I’ve found myself doing the opposite when working from home, but I have a backyard office that doesn’t have a bathroom. I make a number of trips inside each day and taking shoes off each time can be a pain. Having a puppy who will steal my shoes also adds to the annoyance.


Some shoes are easy to put on in a moments notice - and doing so will just become habit. If you want some shoes in the office, invest in a pair of decent slippers or some shoes just worn inside.

A cabinet is often enough to keep the shoes from the puppy - just borrow it from somewhere else. The puppy won't be a puppy forever.


Even $5 flip flops work great for that


Ah yes, my garage/laundry shoes.


There are comfy clothes for collecting pet hair while at home, and nicer, less comfy clothes that are kept as far away from pet hair as possible for wearing outside the home.


Do you have a standing desk? I find that standing in socks, barefoot, or even in indoor slippers is very fatiguing for my feet when standing for hours--so fatiguing in fact that I have a pair of indoor-only new balances, and only use them for standing at my desk inside my "home office". I wonder if there are any alternatives that are even healthier for my feet while avoiding foot/standing fatigue.


It sounds odd - and you’ll still want shoes - but having a walking treadmill under there might be your best bet. I find that just standing hurts my feet but I can walk practically all day without them hurting.


Next time you’re in a grocery store, check out the mats the cashiers stand on. Thick, flexible rubber.


Yep, those are called anti-fatigue mats. They are inexpensive and make a huge difference for your feet/knees/back anywhere you stand for long periods. I have one at my standing desk, one in front of the sink in the kitchen, and at my workbench in the garage.


You can get standing desk mats :) I got one for this reason.


I use a thick yoga mat in front of my standing desk. Fancier options exist, but the important thing is not to stand on a flat, hard surface.


I got a balance board for that. Mats like others suggest help, but the shifting makes it much easier for me to stand


I’ve been working from home since before the pandemic.

I used to be a denim jeans fan, now I’m at a stage where I don’t switch from sweatpants when I go outside.


I won't say I'm utterly rigorous about it but, yah, I increasingly transitioned to bare feet or indoor crocs with socks depending on the season. And, if I'm not going out (and even sometimes then), sweats or something along those lines.


AFAIK wearing outdoor shoes indoors is mostly an American thing, especially within big cities/on the coasts. As a midwesterner, shoes always come off at the door, who knows what you stepped in.


> AFAIK wearing outdoor shoes indoors is mostly an American thing,

It's ultra common in many european countries. I've got one friend where the rule at his house his "shoes off" but most others keep their shoes inside.

It's also highly common for people living in houses to have a "shoes on inside, but only on the ground floor" and shoes off upstairs.

So I guess YMMV.


Interesting, I don’t think I’ve ever visited a “shoes on” household in my whole life in Czechia. Some households offer slippers to guests (in houses with cold floors), but you obviously don’t wear those anywhere else.


> It's ultra common in many european countries. I've got one friend where the rule at his house his "shoes off" but most others keep their shoes inside.

IME it's not common in european countries but guests tend to not be required (though it's usually appreciated), hosts usually won't provide slippers, it's not standard to bring your own (though it's often appreciated), and you won't be required to walk in socks.


It mostly depends on the country. Northern countries tend to have wooden floors and no indoors shoes, southern countries are generally shoes-on and hard floors.


It’s similar in the US. In colder areas up north people are more likely to ask you to take off your shoes inside.

Here in the south, the majority of people wont ask visitors to do so.


Common in the PNW US also, most of the year you'll be walking in with wet shoes.


Born and grew up in the PNW, never took shoes off inside until I married a Chinese. You might be walking in with wet shoes, assuming you aren’t just walking from the drive way to your door. Actually, I bet if you walk more than drive it is more important to (a) have rain boots at all and (b) take them off when you come inside.


Coyld you name a few of those "many"?

Scandinavia, Germany and down to the metiterranean and everything east of incl. Croatia I think it's all shoes off?


From a quick search it seems like west of Germany, Italy and Greece are mostly shoes-inside countries. I definitely wouldn't say that's ultra common.


Having lived for years both in Germany and Greece, definitely shoes off inside. Can't say anything about Italy though !


I met many shoes indoors houses in Germany...again, anecdata ;-)


Spain - most people wouldn't ask guests to take their shoes off


It’s also a variable rule when you have guests.

I (n=1) don’t wear outdoor shoes at home but I’ll allow my guests to keep them. I’ll clean when they’ll leave.

When I’m at home I can wear slippers but my guests can’t so I allow them to keep their shoes.


When the rule of the land is no shoes, traditionally you'll have guest slippers.


> It's ultra common in many european countries.

I assume (as always...) that by "European" you mean "western European", because in Romania you wouldn't be caught dead wearing shoes inside.


This is not an American culture thing, this is an individual household thing.


There is not one American culture. Some American cultures have that traditions some don't. Some have lost the tradition over time.


Agreed with the general sentiment. I just don't think that wearing or not wearing shoes in a house is best described as an attribute of culture. I'd bet it's more often a personal decision. I grant that there may be some groups for whom it's more common, or even named as part of a cultural tradition, but in any case those groups would be doing the same thing no matter what country they were in, so America has nothing to do with it.


This is my view as well after reading through this whole thread. Tons of “I’m X culture and we do Y with our shoes” followed by a reply along the lines of “well I’m X culture too and in my experience we never do Y, we actually do Z.” It seems like it really just comes down to individual choice and how your family or close relatives did it when you grew up.

(FWIW: midwestern American, I take my shoes off at the door usually but have no problem walking through the house with them if I’m e.g. grabbing something I need or going from the back yard to the basement. We have three dogs who are much dirtier than my shoes are going to be.)


There is more than one Midwestern culture.


Sure, but I think the lines are pretty blurry in modern day America. Furthermore, I certainly don’t think those blurry cultural lines in the Midwest are drawn neatly around the boundaries of whether one takes their shoes off indoors.


Mate, trust me that San Franciscans are quick to pop their shoes off at the door haha


Interesting. I grew up in the Midwest and I had never heard of the concept of taking off shoes when going inside until I moved to Seattle.


I was visiting a friend once who happily wore the same shoes inside and outside his house, but was uncomfortable with me being barefoot inside and outside his house. Apparently my bare feet would track dirt into his house, but his shoes wouldn't? Eh, people are strange.


I've met people who have feet so nasty that I do wonder if the germs they hide under their socks aren't actually worse than random germs found in dirt. Those folks are welcome to wear their shoes in my house.


I recall a Reddit thread on this where many people chimed in with their experiences, which seemed to have a distinctly climate-driven element:

* Shoes off = don't track mud and dirt inside

* Shoes on = don't expose yourself to insects

And then depending on cultural background they would tend to keep one or the other habit after moving to a different climate norm. The shoe habits predate modern construction, so they may not matter like they used to.


> don't expose yourself to insects

Or, as sibling allready hints at Australia, to many of the most poisonous animals on earth, who live there.


oh, shoes on must be australia.


My dogs go out and roll around in whatever the heck on the ground. And then come inside. Someone wearing their shoes isn't going to make much difference unless they've stepped in something particularly gross.


You don't wipe your dogs' feet off if they're dirty?


If they're notably gross, yes. But not if they were just outside and came in normal. Which is my point. If someone's shoes are notably gross, that's also a different story.


Ha! My 65 pound dog still thinks she's a puppy (and she's 8 years old, dammit), the idea of trying to slow her down long enough to clean her feet just makes me smile. The blasts past me at a hundred miles an hour and then tears up the stairs so fast that I think one of these days she may actually tear the carpet.

And anyway, have you ever tried to get a dog's paws clean? Like, meaningfully clean?

I have Roombas and I hire a housecleaner once a week. Our house is actually pretty clean in spite of the silly dog.


Those are strongly correlated rather than independent variables though - see my sibling comment :) [1]

1: https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=36424356


I grew up in a family of neatniks, and yet, the very concept of taking your shoes off when going inside perplexed me, on the rare occasion where I found a "no shoes" house. (Northwest USA).

Living the SF Bay Area now, I'd say it's slightly more common to take one's shoes off indoors, but certainly not the rule.

I just generally don't step in disgusting stuff. I don't want it on my shoes, whether or not I'm wearing them indoors. I don't live on a farm. I don't regularly walk across fields or on dirt roads. My shoes are relatively clean, and I don't have wall-to-wall carpet so I don't have to worry about dirtying the carpet so much.


Reminds me of an old joke, retold to fit many ethnicities.

Three men take advantage of a break in a diplomatic council to visit the bathroom. After they are done relieving themselves, the Japanese man fair blasts his hands with water, soaping and rinsing several times. He explains, "In my country, we hold ourselves to high hygenic standards. I try to remain as clean as possible." The Iranian man soaps and rinses quickly, using a minimal amount. He says, "In my country, we are taught to conserve our resources. We must not waste the blessing we have been given." The American does not even look at the line of faucets, casually saying over his shoulder as he leaves the room, "My dad taught me not to piss on my hands."


Although I'm never offended or anything when someone asks me to take my shoes off, I'm always uncomfortable doing it. It makes me feel exposed and vulnerable. As a result, I'd never ask guests to remove their shoes (even though I wear slippers in my place).

It's an oddly sensitive topic, though. I've seen people get offended at being asked, and I've seen people get offended because guests didn't automatically take their shoes off without being asked.

Weirdness all around.


You feel vulnerable and exposed for ... showing socks?


It's not the showing of the socks. It's the lack of protection around my feet. I know it's weird.


The lease for my current rental asks us not to wear shoes indoors. This is due to the wood flooring and how small rocks can get stuck to the underside of one's shoe and scratch up the floor


I would like to make that rule but could never look myself in the mirror after doing it. I have apartments with fresh maple floors from a forest that I got after running out of reclaimed maple floors from schools.


> Living the SF Bay Area

> My shoes are relatively clean

I hate to break it to you but your shoes are filthy.


So when you make an exception to your general rule of not stepping in poo, what's the reasoning?


My in-laws are immigrants from Europe, and they have a no-shoe policy. They also have a German Shepherd and a Lab who go out for three walks a day and traipse around in the backyard in between. Makes the lack of shoes seem sort of pointless to me.


I've known people who trained their dogs to stamp/pat their feet on an old folded up towel laid by the door. Seemed pretty ingenious given how wet and slushy the climate is half the year.


For me the shoes thing isn’t about dirt. It’s about public bathrooms. If a shoe has stepped in a public bathroom. Especially those in bars or gas stations I don’t want that shit (literally) being spread al over my house.


My dogs step in their own shit sometimes. They're idiots, but I still generally wouldn't assume a dog hasn't stepped on a surface worse than a public bathroom.


In New York a lot of dogs wear shoes when they’re out in walks, which I assume are taken off when they go back home.


That seems to be an American thing. In Canada everyone takes their shoes off inside houses.


Leaving shoes outside doesn't work unless the outside portion of the entrance is well sheltered. I've definitely seen it before in condo buildings where there will be a mat and boots neatly lined up in the hallway. Seemed strange though.


Literally takes their shoes off inside the house, or takes them off outside, and then steps in?


Takes their shoes off in the "entrance" (or mud room maybe, though I've never known anyone who calls it that) of the house, which is generally a small tiled area immediately inside any doors that lead to the outside. Shoes are left on the tile (or a mat / plastic shoe thing) and then folks walk without shoes from the entrance area into the rest of the house.


I think it's a good idea.


Is a "mud room" a Canadian thing?


Widely used term in New England in the US as well. For me, it's not a literal room but a tiled extension to the kitchen where I take off dirty shoes and so forth.


I've heard it called mud room or front foyer.


I tried to take the "shoes off in the house" thing seriously for a while but I'm back to just letting the floor be dirty.

You need a pair of shoes at every exit and you need to enter the way you last exited and you need to set whatever you're carrying down to put your shoes on and take them off all the time. Plus your guests who don't have a shoe at every doorway end up cold inside or walking around in their socks outside, and it's not like I can get the dog to wash her feet at the door... It's just too much.

Down is where the dirt goes.


> You need a pair of shoes at every exit

How many exits do you have? Most houses have only one front entrance. All other exits lead to the deck or garden, where people just go barefoot.


Four: two to the front patio, one to the back, one to the garage. It's kind of a dumb layout.

Maybe I'd feel differently if it were barefoot temp year-round, but that's pretty much just a summer thing here. Plus it's kind of irresponsible to heat you house to barefoot-friendly temps so now you've gotta have slippers for everyone...


American houses often have a garage entrance in addition. Depending on the season you’ll want shoes in the back too


I grew up in a house that had 3 back doors, a front and a garage door. Turns out that multiple remodels really messes with layouts. Where to put your shoes was a big issue


I think it's an artifact of this whole "your home is an investment" thing we do. It's like if you're not planning upgrades that make it look better on zillow (upgrades that potentially invalidate initial design considerations) then you're being financially irresponsible.


Not saying that I agree but here's an oped arguing against it. Even a refusal! (cultural reasons for removing shoes are respected though)

Here’s Why I’ll Be Keeping My Shoes on in Your Shoeless Home

https://www.wsj.com/articles/heres-why-ill-be-keeping-my-sho...

Or archive version

https://archive.is/BSr91


Sounds like the kind of insufferable person that will also argue about the food they're served, the music they hear, and even the way you decorated your home.

> cultural reasons for removing shoes are respected though

"I will show no respect for your decisions regarding your personal space, but only if that doesn't make me look bad"

...And of course, when you read a bit further, you realize that this kind of person doesn't understand the decision because there ought to be some kind of domestic fixing their mess.

> Why don’t I just leave my shoes on and give you the amount of money [...] You can use it to hire a housecleaner to mop up after my shoe detritus.


> Sounds like the kind of insufferable person

Indeed. And it's just plain being a bad guest. When you're a guest at someone's house, honoring their wishes about things like this is a duty. It's showing them respect.


I guess the Crux of the argument is:

Why are you assuming that your guests’ shoes are dirtier than your floors?

They believe a floor mat would suffice and it's rude to expect people to get their socks or bare feet dirty from the floor.

Maybe slippers are the answer?


This is not the meeting of equals on neutral ground though.

One party is entering another party's home. If you're not comfortable with rules inside that home, then don't enter that home.

100% agree that whether your own home is shoeless or not is a personal and cultural preference and decision. More power to you. But if I am entering your home, then your rules prevail.


Agreed. This is so obvious that I don’t know why it even makes sense to discuss, unless the person entering has some health issue. Even in that case, they have to ask the house owner or renter whether they can keep their shoes on inside.

Since it is their house, they, and only they, get to decide the rules about shoes allowed inside or not.


The crux of my argument is:

Why is that guest assuming that their opinions are more important than the overwhelmingly accepted idea that people get to set their own home's rules?

> Maybe slippers are the answer?

The author explains in no ambiguous terms that they won't settle for slippers.


> Why are you assuming that your guests’ shoes are dirtier than your floors?

Are my guests regularly cleaning the bottoms of their shoe the way I regularly clean my floors? (Almost certainly not, because why would you?)


There's no actual "argument against it" in the link - it's just a random person expressing their apparently strongly held personal preference.

(In a pretty antagonistic, nasty way, too, but them's the breaks when you want to write op-ed pieces and get attention :-/ )


Here's Why I'll Never Get Invited To Your Home Again


The author of that sounds like an archetypical arrogant, insufferable, American Karen. She's not welcome in my Tokyo home.


> that go on dirt, mud, who knows what else are used to walk on your floors and carpets...prevents a lot of dirt/who-knows-what from entering the house.

so you think people should just never walk barefoot outside on unpaved surfaces, the way our ancestors evolved to, where nature exists in every state between birth and death?

(you don't need to repeat any part of your argument, trust me, I get it, just pointing out the obvious problem with it)


Hookworms (and sharp rocks with a bone to pick with humanity) love appeals to nature. Also, I’ll do you one better than some unspecified ancestors: we have evolved to wear shoes.


No, we have not. [0]

And especially not pointy closed toe modern ones.

[0] https://www.joe-nimble.com/media/image/45/e8/7b/conventional...


Growing up in Australia in my house growing up we never took our shoes off at the door unless they were unnecessarily muddy. All of our shoes were in our rooms or in our wardrobes.

I suppose the thought process is yes those shoes that have been in dirt and who knows what else are being walked through the house, so what? The house gets vacuumed and mopped regularly.


> Growing up in Australia in my house growing up we never took our shoes off

Across the ditch it’s not uncommon for the opposite to be true.

No shoes - supermarket, shops, mall, hospital (!), etc. Bare feet is the way to go in summer but my personal line is drawn a little earlier than many.

Presumably these people have all the same problems as the ‘always shoes’ people.


I like wearing shoes inside your house for the same reason I like wearing shoes outside: I don't know what might be on the floor and I don't want certain things that might be on the floor on my socks or skin. But of course, as a house guest I will respect the host's norms.


Do you take your shoes off at work? (assuming you still have a non-virtual workplace) Any argument about how shoes are unsanitary (not that we live in a time where the streets are covered in horseshit anymore) should apply equally to the workplace as in the home, no?


> Do you take your shoes off at work? (assuming you still have a non-virtual workplace)

In India, when the dust kills computers by clogging fans, you'll see workplaces with computers have a "leave your shoes outside" board. I'm not sure what happens today, but this was true when I lived there.

That's mostly because everyone coming in is usually spent the last half mile on foot and the shoes will basically flake-off indoors in the lowered humidity.

Also, for some reason my dentist's office has a "employees must change into shoes" notice, suspiciously in the bay area.

Maybe they had some contamination issues ("work shoes" that could be santized properly?) or maybe they had employees wear sandals into the office & they had to enforce the rule after someone dropped a sharp on a toe?


Uhm no? Unlike in my home the work environment have professionals washing regularly, no food is prepared, no kids play at the floor and the floors and furniture is made to be easily cleaned. So no. Not at all. (But I wear birkenstocks at work, so nice taking off my shoes that are made to be used outside and rather use footwear that are more fit for the inside).


I do. Company I work for provides space for leaving your outside shoes and keeping your inside shoes or slippers. I wore slippers until few years ago, but now I wear comfy snickers in office. Some of my colleagues still wear slippers.


Where I currently work, you are required to wear shoes (because although I work in an office, the other half of the building is a factory where shoes are a safety issue, and it's easier to have a blanket "shoes required" rule for everybody).

The place I worked at before also had a "shoes required" rule, but I don't know why. My assumption is that someone had stinky feet at some point.


(Not OP) I would like to but there's a Prisoner's Dilemma going on.

If I take off my shoes but some of my coworkers still track icky crap in, then it is worse for me than if we all uniformly kept our outdoor shoes on.

One option is to have some office shoes or sandals, which will also help protect from culinary mistakes in the break-room.


Shoes carry large amounts of fecal bateria into homes, including E. coli: https://www.smithsonianmag.com/smart-news/shoes-carry-poop-b...

> should apply equally to the workplace as in the home, no?

Probably. You should bring it up with your boss.


>Do you take your shoes off at work? (assuming you still have a non-virtual workplace)

I do, and I switch to to my Birkenstocks at work, as my feet can breathe way better in them and it also gives my sneakers an ~8h rest to stay smell-free and cool until I have to go home and put them back on.

Continuously wearing the same pair of sneakers for about 10h per day is ... not great. My feet would be in a swampy sweat broth.


> My feet would be in a swampy sweat broth.

People who always wear shoes all day every day think tend to think that feet are gross. And that's because their feet are disgusting, and they project that onto everybody else.


I didn't project anything. I said my feet are less sweaty in Birkenstock sandals than in Sneakers as they breathe less and less sweat and more fresh air is always better.


> People who always wear shoes all day every day

They explicitly weren't talking about you.


There is no reason for this equivalence.

My main reasoning is reducing cleaning effort on my end. If the office were to have a no shoes rule I'd be walking around in socks or barefoot as long as others do.

Sharing foot bacteria with my coworkers is also a different ballgame than sharing it with my wife and kid. The family is already sharing quite a bit of bacteria so what's a bit of foot stuff.


Wearing house slippers or birkenstocks at work is great.


> Do you take your shoes off at work?

No, because I consider the office to be a shared public space, and none of the people working in the office actually live there. Office is not my personal space, it is a transient area.


I live in Finland, and people take their shoes off in their homes almost universally.

At the office? It's about 50/50. Some people work in their socks, some have indoor-slippers.

In my previous two companies I'd take my shoes off every day when entering the office, leaving them in the handy shoe-racks near the entrance.

In my current job I admit I tend to keep them on, but that's largely because I'm smoking more than usually and putting my boots back on and off multiple times gets annoying in an office environment.


I always thought people should wear slippers at work.


Yeah, I always had a nice pair of "business-appropriate" slippers for any office I worked in. Especially great in the winter, when I can just shuck off my wet winter boots and swap into my comfy office slippers.


It's honestly not a bad idea to have footwear dedicated to certain spaces. I support the idea of office slippers.


I did when when still working in offices, as did almost all colleagues - wearing slippers, not without shoes. Not just because of the dirt but I also can't imagine wearing winter boots in a 23°C office.


I do and it's amazing (slippers). Of course not everyone can do that.


Yup! At a big company I am the only one on the floor, but I don’t care. I also don’t care about the dust on my socks. I only care about breathability and freedom of movement.


I do. It's company policy where i work. It's very uncommon in my country though (France) to take off shoes at work, even though it's very common at home.


Would also apply to eating establishments. Libraries. Basically any environment where you aren't wearing shoes for safety.


People interact with the floor of their home differently than the floor of their workplace.


I wish office places made it doable. Get to work, get your slippers, be comfortable.


I find it strange that you find it strange that I don't find it strange.

Wearing my shoes inside is very normal to me. In my current place I have to take my shoes off, so I can adapt, but it still isn't normal to me.


Yup, different cultures get different things right. Asians and pacific islanders get the "no shoes in the house" thing 100% and it's a rule in my house now, I do not care. Unless youre a contractor working on something in the house, youre taking your shoes off or hanging out outside.


I find this so unthinkable that I think I need to go experience it. Surely the Americans who do this aren’t insane. I mean, Mr Rogers changes his shoes. So maybe that’s it? Wearing slippers inside is normal here.

Or maybe it’s places without winter?

I’m sure if I go and experience it something will click.


If you grow up in a clean country that isn’t very muddy outside, you might not ever notice the need to change shoes in something like a mud room. But spend one winter in Beijing (or Eastern Europe or basically anywhere in the non-fully developed world), and it became really obvious to me why you need indoor and outdoor shoes, and why you have to thoroughly wash your face a few times a day.

That being said, conditions that you are used to will influence whether or not you believe shoes have to be changed between outside and inside.


>If you grow up in a clean country that isn’t very muddy outside

what are you even talking about? have you ever walked to the far side of the parking lot you live in the middle of?


We don’t have many parking lots where I live. What are you talking about?


Shoes at left at the door, you wash your hands whenever you come in from being outside, or somewhere else, and no clothes that have been outside, in or on the beds. That’s what I teach my kids.


Americans don't walk, they drive so their shoes are very clean.


At least in my corner of America, it's expected that you buy a house that's too big for you and then spend the rest of your life doing home improvement projects on it. So our shoes are usually tracking sawdust or other such debris from the garage to whichever part of the house we're working on and back.

I should have just rented.


That sounds like a terrible, ill-informed, stereotype.

Maybe they don't walk as much on average, but shoes get dirty no matter what country you're in.


How many microbes are actually on hot, dry, sun-baked pavement?


I don't know and don't care. But the dog shit that's covering it isn't dry yet.


How often are you stepping in dog shit that this is a concern?


One word: parasites.


Reading through the comments, the oddest thing to me is that practically no one talked about the question of comfort. I live and come from northern europe, so like most people and households here we take off our shoes. I guess it's mainly because the weather is shit here half the year but a big part is also that it's just awesome to remove your shoes at home!


I have a labrador retriever. I'm not too worried about my shoes, provided they're not caked with mud or something.

Also, hard floors are bad for your feet if you go barefoot. I do have indoor-only shoes that I wear fairly often, though like I said, I don't stress too much about it. Between the dog and the cats with their litter boxes, shoe-borne germs are pretty far down my list.


> Also, hard floors are bad for your feet if you go barefoot.

citation needed.


What do you think that dirt is going to do to you? What about if you have a child who rolls around in the grass and then comes in? Or a baby pram who's wheels go everywhere, or a wheelchair user enters your house, or you have a cat or a dog?

While I do take my shoes off in my hall and wear socks in doors all the time, I think the no shoes thing has entered meme territory.


I don't have any evidence to back that up, nor am I expert on the topic.

But I find that dirt (and outside shoes) is usually fine, you will find more dangerous bacteria in door knobs, coins, etc. Basically everything your hand touches has a higher risk of getting you sick.

That doesn't hide the fact that having a dirty floor looks gross though, from a aesthetic standpoint


I switched to super-light-weight inside shoes and couldn't be happier. They work like slippers in a pinch, or like proper shoes if you pull up the heel.

https://www.amazon.com/gp/product/B089MB3NLN


Who cares if dirt gets in? You have to clean anyways right? Is dirt more powerful outside than inside? Dirt in the air doesn't matter? If your shoe has excessive dirt, you can wipe it on a matt as you ener right?

Also, not changing socks means now random people leave feet sweat and nastiness all over the house floor.


> I find it more strange that people wear outside shoes inside.

Not making excuses but when you have to be in and out your house many times a day, it gets quite annoying having to take your shoes off only to put it back on a few minutes later. The real animals are people who go to bed with their shoes on. Inexcusable that.


I’ve never heard of people sleeping with shoes on. Did you mean that literally?


I don't have a hard "no shoes" rule in my home but I would if it was more the norm in the US.


Depends on where. When I lived in GA suburbs, it was about 50/50.

After that, I moved to a few large cities on both coasts(and been to plenty others), and I don't remember visiting more than one or two households where wearing shoes inside was ok. The only exception to this was when someone was hosting a large houseparty, in which case wearing shoes inside was expected about half the time (you wouldn't want your feet to make contact with whatever could be on the floor at some of those, such as occasionally spilled liquor).


It is the norm in Minnesota. Growing up, we never wore shoes in our own home or in the homes of anyone we visited. Still the case today.


Shoes indoor seems even more insane in northern locations.

Yeah go and track slush and salt on the wooden floors, will you?


Things can be judgement calls. It's not like everyone takes a strict always on or always off ruling. If someone is going to track some obvious crap inside that's a different story than if they were walking around in normal conditions.


But northern locations are colder. Being shoeless is cold, especially on wood floors.


First shoes in this context is outdoor shoes, that doesn’t mean being barefoot.

Second northern locations tend to have properly insulated and heated indoors, rugs, possibly floor heating, … when the cold is common it’s easier to spend more on heating and comfort. For instance in Japan central heating is only common in Hokkaido, maybe also Aomori.


(My responses are US-centric, since that's where I live)

> that doesn’t mean being barefoot.

It does if you're at someone else's place. or in your socks, which is roughly the same.

> northern locations tend to have properly insulated and heated indoors, rugs, possibly floor heating

That is far from the norm in my part of the US.

Don't get me wrong, if I'm a guest and asked to remove my shoes, of course I do! And without comment. But it does make for uncomfortably cold feet in the winter.


But our outdoor shoes are too hot to wear inside. They are also heavy and so a relief to get that weight off your feet


You can wear slippers


socks and slippers?


You just knock the snow off your shoes, it's not that crazy.


A shoe you've "knocked the snow off" is still full of snow, just less of it. It's also full of slush and salt.


Not really? It's negligible if you have a mat.


It is one of these cultural things, and will be forever a controversial topic. Personally, I don't think there is a right answer, except to respect your host.

I put it with: airplane seat reclining, casual nudity, hanging clothes from windows, just about anything sexual,...


We remove our shoes inside. But a carpet cleaner told me that being barefoot inside is worse than wearing outside shoes due to the oils in your feet. I looked this up and it seems to bear some weight. So now we have to wear socks.


I think it depends on how muddy the environment is.

In some areas, it's a really minor concern.


I don't like taking my shoes off unless I'm relaxing. It's a physical reminder to do stuff.

If I'm watching a show and I need to get up to do something, I'll put my shoes back on.


If you have dogs, they usually don't take off their shoes when they go inside, so you may as well keep wearing shoes if you have hardwood floors.

Shoes on carpet are always icky, though.


That's why you wash your dog's paws.


That's why you leave the dog outside.


I got 4 boys and way too many legos.

Only time I'm taking my shoes off is when I'm in bed or in the shower. It's just too dangerous to go barefoot. <grin>



> people wear outside shoes inside

so do they keep shoes on all day? doesn't it get sweaty, itchy, etc...


then imagine people using toilet papers to clean their ass after poops. so disgusting and culture-less people.


I rankly speculate you have no dogs.


In the US (and quite possibly all of the Western world), it is unacceptable to wash with water.

1) Wipe hands with paper towels after eating. Hands are still greasy, grease finds its way all over the house, door knobs, tap handles, keyboards, mice.

2) Use toilet paper. Completely unacceptable to use water. It leads to toilet paper shortages and crusty bottoms (less crusty with toilet paper), but nobody has a clue that an alternative is available and works better. [1]

3) Shoes inside, even on bed. You can see this on all the shows/movies. Third world has footwear(shoe/flipflops) outside, wash feet when you come inside. Or indoor slippers.

[1] https://youtu.be/bXK_vHNNht4


> Inexplicably, they don't slide down. Regular socks slowly work themselves down into your shoe over a day (depending on the build quality), but toe socks break sock physics and just...don't.

I think the author went from wearing very low quality socks to decent socks due to cheap low-quality toe socks not existing and has discovered that good socks actually do make a difference, but then misattributed some of that to them being toe socks.


I don't think that's the issue. The author has a large bunion on his left foot (or is holding it as a very odd angle) and may have gait issues. I am an inveterate people watcher and am often surprised by others' posture and gait. It may be that his toes are doing extra work to compensate and with each step are pulling the toe box of a normal pair of socks forward. This would tie in with some other points they made about foot health/comfort problems.

I walk tens of miles every week at marching pace, mostly wearing the same shoes, and never have any of these problems, other than one very small recurring callous. I've never tried toe socks but am OK wit Japanese style tabi.


I immediately thought the same thing. I have been wearing regular socks my entire life and have never had a single one of the problems they mention.


Author was just unlucky. I encountered maybe a handful of socks that slid down. 99.5% percent of socks had unlimited uptime. And I always buy the cheapest, basic stuff so it's not about the quality.


I was thinking the same thing. Maybe the author should be comparing his $15 toe socks to a $15 pair of non toe socks because his post definitely sounds like he was wearing super low quality socks before.


I have toe socks that slide down. Just one pair of the dozens I have.


That doesn't depend on the socks, but the shoes (well, boots). I only have this problem with big boots with a fur liner and socks that are shorter than the boots.


I wonder if the sock sliding down requires the foot sliding up. and maybe the toes prevent that from happening?


Clearly not wearing Bombas


Interesting article.

We call them split-toe socks in India.

Only read a few of the HN comments here so far, and then the first two paragraphs of the article, but immediately thought of a point, so putting it here, although I'll surely read the rest of the article and more comments here a bit later:

>They're plain better for your toes. Toes want to spread out and be free. Having your toes cramped together by a sleeve all day will fundamentally change the way the foot is shaped and how you walk.

Spot on, IMO, and this is why I never buy shoes that become narrower towards the front, and pinch your toes together. Sometimes I have to search more, because that kind seems to be a bit of a fashion in India, where I am, from quite a while, but the idea seems really dumb to me. Whenever I buy shoes, I still search until I can find and buy the right kind for me, which don't narrow towards the front.

The kind that don't narrow used to be called naughty-boy shoes in India, when I was in primary school, for some reason :) Probably people can guess why ...

If that is the case, I wanna be a naughty boy all my life ;-)


> The kind that don't narrow used to be called naughty-boy shoes in India, when I was in primary school, for some reason :) Probably people can guess why ...

I have been sitting here for a few minutes trying to come up with a guess, and I have not even a bad guess as to why. Any hints?


Maybe it's because they are better at uhh.. hitting kids who are naughty? From experience, flatter shoes hurt more lol. Not sure though, I'm puzzled myself!


Naughty Boy is a name brand product of black leather school shoes made by the shoe company Bata. Although it is a Czech company, it is probably the biggest shoe brand in India - at least in recognition. I would say that most people in India think that Bata is an Indian brand.

As to why they decided to call their line of school shoes "Naughty Boy", I would guess that it's a reverse psychology marketing thing.


pkd gave a factual answer (sibling comment).

Mine too is only a guess, like others:

"Naughty" boys are unconventional, so that shoe name matches their style or personality.


Thank you!


Add one more to the set of people who can't guess why they were called that. My best guess is that "wider shoes are better for hitting misbehaving children", but I have no idea if that's actually true or not.


"Probably people can guess why ..."

I cannot guess why, and now I'm super-duper curious. Why area they called naughty-boy shoes?


Look up "barefoot shoes". They're usually like you described and additionally undampened (requires different walking technique, no heel-walking anymore).


I love toe socks. I used to wear toe socks of "liner" thickness inside of regular hiking socks to help maintain toe separation and reduce chafing/blistering when hiking, and it works wonders. I recommend Injinji for toe socks and Darn Tough for hiking/walking/everyday socks. They're also great if you do take your shoes off indoors (we do in my house), because you can leave your toe socks/liners on to keep your feet more even in temperature without negatively impacting sensation/touch, and leave your heavier socks by your shoes.


The “toe socks inside regular socks” is the secret to me never getting blisters on marathons (once I started doing that)!


Why not just toe socks then? Why do you need two layers?


Still get blisters on the outside of feet/toes with one layer, though not between toes. The second layer gives an additional protection and then no blisters. It’s like the double layer method Wright Socks use.


2nd on Darn Tough. I got them for hiking, but now they are the only sock I wear.


I also wear toe socks, and while I agree with the author's points, here are some other downsides that they fail to mention:

1. Flipping them right side out after laundry takes more work than regular socks, because you need to flip each toe individually

2. Also when doing laundry, you need to match the left and right foot, which takes more time. Be sure to buy packs with different colors, and don't be like me and buy 2 times the same pack.

3. They take more time to put on.

So basically, these 3 all boil down to: they require a little more work. But they're worth it.


#3 lessons with time I think. I can slip them on basically as fast unless my foot is damp after the shower. #1 and #2 were on my list of cons too, it's a universal problem. For laundry, I try to pull mine off toes first before I put them into the hamper to minimize flipping, but I still forget a lot.


Regarding point 1, can you blow in them like with latex gloves?


Having worn toe socks for 5+ years now, it's one of the greatest decisions I've made. I mostly only wear Injinji now, but I have tried other brands in the past. Here's my pro's and cons list from my experience.

1. Pro: they are much more durable. normally socks start to get rough and developing those little hard fiber balls all over them after a while, haven't had those with injinji.

2. Con: they used to be a bit cheaper in the past, but they are pretty pricey now. I'd say I'm normally paying ~$12 - $15 for a pair, but thanks to #1 now that I have a good supply, I'm not having to buy them very often.

3. Con: if you lose one sock, you've lost two. Having dedicated right and left socks is a liability. I've attempted to address this in the past by just buying lots of the same style, but that is much worse, you suddenly find yourself with 6 plain white left socks and no right socks and realize you need to do laundry to have socks. Now I buy only one of a given style and it's much easier to match up pairs. Injinji is constantly putting out new styles, likely for this reason.

4. Con: Laundry is more difficult. It's become easier now that I've changed how I take off my socks, but there's still some effort.

Now there are a lot more cons in that list, but honestly they are all worth it.


My grandpa (a consummate tinkerer, mechanic, and life hacker) taught me the best trick for laundering socks.

Keep a small box of big safety pins by your hamper. When you take your socks off, pin the pair together then toss them in the hamper. Always keeps pairs together!


Re 4 on laundry, a tip I followed early on is to buy different color/stripe patterns to help match em up.

I miss using toe socks, love using them but have been so much involved in outdoor work these days where socks, jeans, etc. wear out quickly.


Can you turn one sock inside out to make a pair?


Yes, you can. The seams will be on the wrong side though. I do this with right/left handed non-toe socks, which by the way is also very comfortable compared to standard socks.


I think OP is wearing socks that are not properly fit. Literally never have had any of these problems with traditional wool black socks.


This is a bit unusual post to see on HN front page. But interesting!

Anyone have a recommendation for toe sock brands? I've been wanting to get some for running but haven't got around to doing any research.


Injinji is the best I've tried so far


I can also vouch for injinji


The Awesome Socks Club is currently open for registration. It opens once or twice a year. They post you a pair a month, each designed by a different independent artist, and all the profits go to charity (maternal health care in Sierra Leone).


I see no mention of toes socks on their website, just a choice of "crew" or "ankle".


My brother in Japan also got socks where only the big toe is separate and I kinda like those. The ones with five separate toes are kinda hard to put on. The one with just the big toe separated can be put on as fast a regular socks.


Tabi socks are a traditional sock in Japan, worn with zori (thonged sandals). They date back hundreds of years. You an also get Jika-Tabi, which have a durable, rubber sole, for outdoor wear.


I can recommend barefoot shoes. I really feel like they save my knees and everything else in my legs works more smoothly and I feel more stable walking. They take a bit of adjustment though. They'll train your calves, you'll walk slower because you'll have shorter step length, you'll initially get blisters in new places.


I switched to barefoot shoes and have tried toe socks. Unfortunately I have webbed toes, and no one caters to my small community I've been meaning to try cutting and sewing them where my toes are joined.


The obvious solution to narrow socks is wider socks. Ideally also with an asymmetrical shape that follows the feets anatomy.

Surprisingly there seems to be only one company that makes them: Plus12Socks

Their story is quite interesting. The company is a spin-off of an Austrian research group on children's foot health


> They're plain better for your toes. Toes want to spread out and be free. Having your toes cramped together by a sleeve all day will fundamentally change the way the foot is shaped and how you walk.

So the solution is to put more material in your toe area, taking up more space inside the shoe? That doesn't make any sense. Socks don't really push your toes together, your shoe does, and more sock just means pushing your toes harder against the shoe (and each other).


I do not wear toe socks because my Vibram Five Fingers would be too tight.

Some 8 years ago I bought a pair of Vibram 5F and ever since they are my footwear of choice.

Walking the dogs, going on a flight, going _anywhere_.

You know that feeling at the end of the day when you walk in the door and kick your shoes off? And your feet go "AAAAAAHHHHH"?

Doesn't happen with the vibrams. On/off your feet don't notice.

Oh - and when they get a bit whiffy - chuck them in the laundry. Good as new.

Not connected to the company at all, just a very satisfied customer.


I have weird feet. I've had foot drs gasp when they first see my feet.

I love my Vibrams. They're the best shoes I've ever owned. And I'm pretty sure mine are a half-size too small :P But they're still better than other shoes.


I've worn them and can't stand them, there is too much material between toes. I prefer zero-drop, wide toe box shoes like vivobarefoot and Merrell *gloves.

I think I'd have the same opinion on toe socks


I've tried vapor gloves, xero, lems, bearfoot... All supposedly "wide toebox," all too narrow. So far, five fingers and earth runners are the only footwear that works for me.


I haven’t tried any of those so I can’t say how they would compare, but I am quite happy with the toe box on the Altra Lone Peak. Topos also have a wide toe box.


I could never see the appeal of VFF. Just drop the shoes and go barefoot. Your soles will get used to it very soon. And when the weather gets too cold for that, it is likely too cold for VFF too.


There are plenty of places where you wouldn’t want to, or just can’t, go barefoot.


Are Vibrams a shoe brand? I see lots of vibram rubber soles on other brands boots.



I've bought a pair of toe socks some time ago and will definitely buy more.

I've also started to wear barefoot shoes with widened toes some years ago, and I can't go back to my 'normal' business shoes anymore, my feet start hurting within an hour because my toes positions started to be more parted.

Running with them is quite challenging though, the technique to land on the front of your feet required to minimize shocks on the knees and hips but a lot more strain on the calves.


Regarding blisters, you absolutely can get blisters with toe socks, it just takes longer. I hike exclusively with Injiji Nuwool. On my JMT thru-hike I developed large blisters on one toe on the side, and on another toe on the top. Also coincidentally areas where I wasn't wearing leukotape. In future hikes I made sure to leukotape top and sides and subsequently never had a blister again. I swear by pre-taping leukotape on long hikes to prevent blisters, more than the type of sock, but I do enjoy toe socks for the toe splaying thing since I wear Altra Lone Peaks (wide toe box shoes).


I used to wear toe shoes so I have a bunch of toe socks. When I first wore them it took some getting used to but after that I noticed no difference. Regular socks are stretchy and expand to fit the position of your toes.


Going a step further, I am the oft-ridiculed "foot shoe guy". Other than how hard they are to clean, they're probably the best purchase I've made in years. Goodbye planar fasciitis


In the same spirit of toe socks, I wonder if there are also penis pants?


There certainly were. Eldridge Cleaver (former Black Panther and Presidential candidate) invented the 'Cleavers'.

https://www.messynessychic.com/2013/08/01/the-1970s-politica...


Later became a Mormon. He was all about special clothing.


And a Reagan Republican on top of that.



Huh, it's like a bra for balls...


Life changing


There are certainly a wide variety of undergarments that have pouches or tubes or even the short-lived boxerkilt that I'm hoping makes a comeback.


Sackpants seem more interesting, to avoid them rubbing against the thigh.


Briefs? Or Jockstraps?


>They're plain better for your toes. Toes want to spread out and be free. Having your toes cramped together by a sleeve all day will fundamentally change the way the foot is shaped and how you walk.

This guy better walk barefoot, as shoes are way more restrictive in how your toes can move. In fact, I just checked and my socks stretch another 2-3 cm with very little resistance, should my toes "want to spread and be free".

>You have better balance. The more surface area your foot has, the better your stability. And even inside a pair of regular gym shoes, with my toe socks on I find I am more firmly planted on the ground.

As per above, this doesn't make any sense.

>Inexplicably, they don't slide down. Regular socks slowly work themselves down into your shoe over a day (depending on the build quality), but toe socks break sock physics and just...don't.

I only ever had this problem in wildly oversized felt boots, never in any pair of shoes of my size.

>You don't get blisters between your toes. If you are a distance runner or hiker, you'll know how annoying those specific blisters are. This is due to toe-on-toe friction. Since this is now sock-on-sock friction, your toes remain unharmed.

Never heard about between-toe blisters, asked a few people and neither have they.

I have a pair of toe socks and I hate the feeling of pressure and intrusion between toes, so I only ever wear them if I've somehow wildly stuffed up my laundry cadence.


I reject this case on the KISS principle. Statistically, a drawer full of toe socks will require 3 to be sampled whenever (every damn day) 2 non-matching (L+R) are required, until I'm down to my last pair on laundry day. Also, they seem to cost 4x the price of "normal" socks. No thank you.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/KISS_principle


Problematic if you have webbed toes.


I missed this comment before replying at the top level elsewhere, but yeah I would need some socks with 4 toe holes :)


wouldn't a regular sock be a toe sock then..? :)


webbed toe being like the 2nd and 3rd toe being partially fused. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Webbed_toes


Wow I found one like me. You don't usually see men wearing them, or really anyone besides teenage girls.

Once you try them and get used to them, you'll feel like youre slushing around soup in your shoes if you try to go back. They're fantastic.

These days though I mostly just forego shoes. I probably wear closed toe shoes 4 or 5 days out of the year outside of winter. But when I do have to wear them, toe socks are the only way to go.


Aren't your toes jammed together when you're wearing shoes anyway?

Around my own house I don't usually wear socks unless it's cold.


Toes are jammed together because shoe toe boxes are not foot shaped, on most shoes they are shaped purely for vanity. In other words we still do foot binding, just milder. Hello bunions and foot issues!

And the width is set at average, so it fits very few people. Also the non-foot shape makes it so the few shoes that do offer different widths still fail to fit.


I think it’s not so much a problem with the shape for plenty of men’s shoes (though I don’t love the big toe poking slightly inward) and more that people get shoes that don’t fit very well.


Big toes poking inwards is a huge issue. It’s a awful terrible design that makes no sense.

Also people don’t get shoes that fit well because they don’t know shoes that fit well exist because they barely exist.

Altra and Topo make some shoes that fit okay but still are only going to fit certain small segments of the population.

Altra’s size wide also is the common wide = more volume but not actually wider ridiculousness. People don’t buy shoes that fit because they don’t know they exist nor do they realize their shoes don’t actually fit. But even if they did realize both things, most people would not have access to the few modes that fit better.


I was a bit shocked when I first saw photos of adults with unmodified human feet, that hadn't been molded by Western standard shoes as they grew up.


foot binding is alive and well in the rock climbing community. i am 'recovering' from fit issues from the last 7 years. since covid i gave up on rock shoe fitting style (which bled into my regular shoe fitting as well) and my feet are much happier now, though still not great.


Locking cycling shoes are also preposterously narrow too. I guess they're all about aerodynamics.


yeah my first pair were a specialized shoe and my foot went numb from the bridge being squished. i have some crankbros and fiveten which are both much wider, though for road i hear shimano have pretty comfy toeboxes.


Even with width, the ratio between the width of the front of the foot and the width of your heel varies. I need a normal width heel and a wider toe box. Only took me 20 years, but I finally found a decent brand of running shoes that matches my slightly duck-like feet.


What running shoe brand do you wear? I also have duck-like feet and struggle to find athletic shoes that fit properly.


Look into diabetic shoes; they tend to have wide toeboxes. Luckily here in Las Vegas we still have an old fashioned, competent shoe store where they actually measure your foot (pressure pad and all), understand foot anatomy and how different manufacturers make their products. They recommended a few different brands. I prefer New Balance so they produced the 1540. The v2 fit me better but alas, all you can find now is the 1540v3. It wasn't the cheapest shoe, however it is leaps and bounds better than any other tennis shoe I have ever worn. Worth every penny.

FYI Vegas store for those interested: https://www.yelp.com/biz/cesars-shoe-world-las-vegas-3


Altra and Topo make "footshaped" shoes. Not all Altra are, but you can get most models with a wider toebox.

Another brand to checkout is Lems are other brands to checkout. They do have some running type shoes, but I'm only familiar with their casual shoes. I reallly recommend getting some Lems for daily use.


Altra have been really disappointing the last few years - I started buying them ~2012 because of their wide toebox but around 2015 they seemed to revert back to more normal shapes. Same with HOKA - they had some excellent wide shoes around 2012 which slowly disappeared around 2015.

Second the LEMS though - not quite barefoot but definitely minimal.


Not OP, but Altra King MT trail shoes have a great wide toe box with a pretty normal ankle width. I think the whole Altra line aims for a wide toe box - they call it "Footshape" in their marketing materials[0].

Not related to the company, just a satisfied customer. I actually wear toe socks inside my Altras whenever I'm doing a long hike, like (say) the Enchantments in WA state.

[0] https://www.altrarunning.com/shop/mens-king-mt-2-alm1952g


Altra King MT trail shoes have a great wide toe box

Too bad they don't make them anymore. The Altra Superior is probably the closest one, similar shape and low stack height. And if nothing else, there's the venerable Lone Peak with which it is hard to go too far wrong.


> Toes are jammed together because shoe toe boxes are not foot shaped, on most shoes they are shaped purely for vanity.

I highly disagree with the notion that things that look pleasing to the eyes are "vanity". I also disagree that taste is vanity.

Wearing Crocs is one thing. Wearing Crocs and calling those who don't vanitous is something else altogether.


When function is sacrificed in the name of looks, it’s pure vanity. When something goes beyond that and actively causes harm in the name of looks, it’s vanity at the worst.

I agree Crocs are ugly. Shoes don’t have to look like crocs to be anatomically functional.


> Aren't your toes jammed together when you're wearing shoes anyway?

They're not supposed to be, but most shoes are terribly fit if you have any sort of less than ideal feet.

It took me years to realise, but (alongside a whole host of other issues) I turn out to have pretty "wide" feet at the front.

After decades of wearing shoes the toes literally overlap, if I walk middle distances unless I add some sort of separator (e.g. toe socks, which is not comfortable as it forces toes apart when they got misshapen to bunch up) even in open-toed shoes my toes are so deformed they'll stab one another: the nail of the 5th and 4th toes will scrape against the previous toe until they break the skin and fill my socks with blood.


It's good to use these socks with "barefoot" shoes that have plenty of room for toes and thin sole that helps them spread while walking.


> You don't get blisters between your toes.

Yes, you can. Wear different ones, you'll find out right-quick.


OMG - thank you for posting this! I have sensitive feet and need a wide toe box with shoes. I'm rarely comfortable with socks on, let alone shoes. We have gloves for our hands; why not for our feet too? It's so obvious - at least now!


I love toe socks but it's hard to find good quality ones that I can wear in non-sport scenarios.

For instance injinji does great toe socks but they are overly branded, is there anything that doesn't stand so much out?


You can order cheap clones of them on Amazon, Ebay and Alibaba.


Have been using my Vibram Five-Finger's for going on 13 years now, and along with them using toe socks. Not exclusively, but still rather frequently.

Toe socks are a pain to get on.

Never had any of the issues the author mentiones with normal socks, but have long since realized that not all socks are created equally. For a few years now all my sock purchases have been done exclusively from Pantherella in the UK, even though it burns a hole in my wallet.

It is worth it for the feeling of waking on clouds.


Flip-flop master race reporting in!

(Although I don't do it anymore bc I work in a lab.)


dont you find the constant "grip" position your feet make while walking in flip-flops fatiguing?


That's a sign your flip flops are either poorly made, or don't fit your feet well. Personally, all my former water polo buddies swear by Rainbows, but I've been told Reef makes some good ones, too. The important thing is that your feet need to be able to sink into the sandals a bit (Rainbows have a pretty brutal break-in period until the leather compresses to match your feet), and the strap that goes between your toes needs to be soft enough to be comfortable, but wide enough that it snuggles into the slightly flared base of the gap between your toes.


The Rainbow break in period is a form of torture. But once you get through it, they surely are comfortable.


I know what you mean. Just force yourself to stop doing it, eventually your mind will realize it will not fall and that reflex will disappear.


That doesn’t happen with flip flops that fit you well (usually means having to go for better quality)


My main difficulty with toe socks is finding ones for my toe length/width combination. There are relatively standard foot sizes listed, but toes vary a lot and most are uncomfortably tight on my toes :/

My middle ground has been wearing very thin socks, e.g. some athletic ones and many dress socks. They're weak enough that they don't compact my toes. Combine that with wide toe box shoes and my feet feel great every day - they went from mild ache after a full day to nothing for two decades now.


I tried toe socks but found they really made my toes cold! I find that gloves make my fingers cold, too. I'm much more comfortable jamming my hands into my pockets. It's a shame about the toe socks because I've been wearing barefoot shoes for over a decade and am still dealing with a bunion on my left foot. I've been working on strengthening my hallucis abductor muscle so I can splay my big toe away from the others.


I found I just can't stand having my toes constricted like that. I also can't stand to wear hats. I think those two things are related.


A good case for toe socks here -- unfortunately I don't have the separated toes needed to wear them! I'm not entirely sure how common it is (I'm only aware of myself and my grandfather having this), but the webbing between some of my toes extends far up the toes, kind of like a duck's foot. Toe socks and those toe shoes are out, I'm afraid.


The points raised are valid and it makes me want to try toe socks. I have chronic ankle instability from an injury which impacts my balance at times, I wonder if toe socks would help with that?

But where I live (Czech Republic) we don't wear shoes inside at all so I will inevitably lose some "street cred". But for at home during winter I might give them a try


I started wearing Injinji toe socks about 13 years ago when I started using vibrams. I rarely wear the vibrams anymore after having a motorcycle accident that left me with less range of motion in one ankle, but I still wear toe socks (of a few different costs and brands now) almost exclusively all these years later. They just feel more natural to me.


I love toe socks!

I will say though, just wearing them or going barefoot does not naturally encourage the toes to spread out. There's a specific way of training that comes from the martial art world, where the connective tissues among the toes grow more thicker and more robust. The downside is that you start having to look for footwear that are wider than the standard sizes.


I like split socks where the toe is separate. They help prevent the sock from shifting on you. These are especially lovely for use with sandals.

Since I have neuropathy, I especially like the ones with tread on the bottom, but that makes them chiral... and it always seems like my drawer has 3 left socks. Expensive ones with treads are sold by "V-Toe Socks, Inc".


I've been buying split toe socks for years now, when they weren't so readily available. A tip to anyone else curious: you can find many different styles/colors in varying quality on Amazon, Temu, Aliexpress, etc. from no-name brands. In general the quality is quite good, at least on par with major brand socks and if you're less confident then just pay attention to the return policy. The main thing to look for is 100% cotton (or natural fiber of your choice).

Edit: I posted this primarily because they're a niche product which translates to niche-consumer prices sometimes. However you don't need to pay more than $2-3/pair to have pretty nice, durable socks of this kind.


Never heard of that before, would like to try. Does someone have any specific brand or shop recommendations for toe socks? EDIT: It’s nice from the author to specifically say that he won’t support big toe sock. However, this is maybe the first time that I would have appreciated Amazon referrals :)


I have gone through many pairs of toe socks. For whatever reason they seem to get holes more frequently.


Sweat and blisters are the only compelling arguments they listed. My toes have no trouble spreading out in normal socks. I don't know what kind of boa constrictor socks they've been wearing.


>Having your toes cramped together by a sleeve all day will fundamentally change the way the foot is shaped and how you walk.

Shoes are far more damaging for foot shape than socks. If this is a concern, get some toe spacers.


Super glad for the fellow enjoying some toe socks.

Also, I experience none of his problems.


1, 3, 4, 5 and 6 suggest he doesn’t use socks like I do.


I, too, am a toe-sock hoe. Thank you for these points! I'll be sure to refer to them next time I'm asked about my foot-fitting choices.


A negative is they're a pain to put on. I do like the feel of toe socks though... they do feel more "free" comparatively.


I have long envisioned something that I describe as a reverse-stripper clip for toe socks. Maybe it's a little like a shoehorn, too. You stick it into the sock and it puffs out all the toes and holds the top open, and you just jam your foot in.

Tiny TAM? No MRR? Not a unicorn, to be sure. I still really want one.


Yes, toe socks take longer to put on. Also, not normal socks squeeze your toes, give blisters or cause other problems for most uses.

I always wear toe socks for very long runs or hikes, like > 2 hours, but don’t find the extra time to put on toe socks is worth it most of the time.


I keep some to wear in bed during winters. Looks like I should put them to general use.


Never heard of them, but I can see me buying them.

I wonder what local shops sell them. (I try and avoid amazon)


REI has been my goto for toe socks in the past. I buy the Injinji brand of socks.


Same thoughts about socks. I also wear one described in article and can confirm all pros.


After reading this I feel like I need to call the police.


Too late for father's day.


How do they compare to the alternatives?

- normal socks in normal shoes

- toe socks in normal shoes (the OP?)

- bare feet in normal shoes

- {bare feet,toe socks} in toe shoes

- bare feet in flip flops or something else pretty minimal

- bare feet everywhere

I feel like most arguments were between the first two options.




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