For those volunteers, that is a great example of doing something to make yourself feel better at the expense of the others you're claiming to help.
It's easy to imagine everyone is 'always loved' if you grew up in a stable, supportive family in a safe neighbourhood, but that is not the experience for everyone.
That's a really cynical villainization of good faith effort. as the OP said, they didn't know better. Once they knew, did they keep going?
In the end, I'd rather people try than not. Because I am observing that the more common trend is to not bother, because you're not going to get it right anyway.
If you want to help someone, you'll put in some effort to find out what said person/group actually needs. Evidently the aforesaid volunteers did nothing of the sort, so I'll maintain my cynicism.
If I say that I really care for the plight of conjoined twin myslexia sufferers, but just throw a big parade to raise awareness of them, while never asking the sufferers what they actually would like, what does that say about me? Ref: the Nurse Gollum episode of South Park.
As an aside, if you've ever had people tell you they really care for you yet they never put any effort into communication/empathy/understanding, you'll recognise this pattern as the same. Basically, charlatans. They want the praise of doing good without any of the effort or risks.
Those volunteers took the wrong approach, since they didn’t ask the people they were trying to help, what help they actually needed. But in my experience, the group they were targeting is very difficult to productively converse about their needs with.
People with mental health issues oftentimes don’t know what their problem is or how they can be helped. Sometimes they can’t conceive of solutions outside their current mental space or understanding. Additionally, sometimes simply asking them what amounts to “I noticed something wrong with you and I’d like to help” exacerbates the feeling of “something is wrong with me” rather than “I’d like to help”.
The above is true for more issues than just mental health issues, as well. I definitely support asking people what they need and tailoring solutions to their individual or group needs, but it’s not as easy as your post makes it sound.
If you or others have advice regarding specifically how to help people struggling with mental health, I’d love to hear it. I have a lot of loved ones who have struggled or are struggling with mental health issues, and I haven’t found any approach which does work.
I know many people with mental health issues (including myself), but my sample isn't terribly generalizable as they're either from my family or my wife's family. For me personally, the scenarios I've opened up in are, without exception, intimate. The absolute maximum has probably been 5 people in conversation, and it has always been in scenarios where time feels plentiful. It also helps tremendously if others break the ice, though that's not always a requirement.
For these volunteers that are trying to improve the mood of those struggling with no prior credibility or relationship, my best guess would have been organizing something like a series of cafes where people can come and pet consenting animals. Have volunteers be available for conversation, but defer agency in that process to participants. I would consider things like have a rotation of volunteers semi-clandestinely engage in alone time with the animals so that socially anxious participants don't feel overly conspicuous if they also need to be alone. I might also have some PPE on-hand for those especially anxious about hygiene. I'd probably look a bunch of stuff up to see what accommodations are helpful to people of various mental struggles, figure out a subset that seems plausible and give it a shot. That's my best guess.
Oof. Whilst I get where you're coming from, I don't think it's evident at all.
I spent my time at university doing way less (drinking mostly). These folk actually had to make a decision to give up their time for something more than themselves. They found something that a) probably gave them a sense of purpose and b) they thought was helping.
I'd assume for those involved someone told them "this is our plan, this will help people, here's what you need to do." Because they didn't talk to those suffering, or go away and research it doesn't mean they didn't think it was helpful, even if it was misdirected help.
The difference in interpretation is that one is about actually helping, while the other is about having an earnest desire to help and taking action which may not actually help or possibly be detrimental.
Is that accurate though? Standing on a street and yelling at people actually requires effort, and arguably some risk.
It seems more likely that a lot of these people actually do want to help others but simply didn’t consider the possibility that what seemed helpful to them wouldn’t be. You can want to help someone without being good at it.
> You can want to help someone without being good at it.
Some kind of help is the kind of help we all can do without. I wouldn't encourage a well-meaning student to do my surgery if a gruff-looking surgeon who has taken their Hippo is around. Same goes with getting my car repaired, or discussing touchy topics like depression. It's fine if you want to help, but I'd rather you didn't if you have no idea what you're doing.
Another brief anecdote: my high school growing up had been hit by a wave of bullying that left the staff extremely insecure about the way they handle mental health. So one year I showed up to school and they had a photo of every student in the halls on the wall, with enormous posters declaring "You are Loved" and other pithy quotes. Needless to say, 4 weeks later those same halls were utterly vandalized, with the posters tattered, threats scrawled under people's faces in Sharpie and some taken down entirely (often by bullying victims themselves). The administration didn't look before they leaped, and ended up using their authority to shoot themselves in the foot.
Shouting nice things at random groups of people is idiotic, and borderline insulting. A bit like throwing money in the general direction of Africa to help the starving. Whatever someone is going through, relating to them as individuals is a good first step.
The intention matters little in these cases, and the consequences much. It is exactly the empty and superficial act of describing how much you care while remaining oblivious to their human needs and wants that makes the act so harmful. The obvious lack of care that is demonstrated while someone pats themselves on the back in that way deepens the feelings of social isolation and helplessness that caused the issue in the first place.
It doesn't matter that it requires effort. You don't get a gold star in these scenarios simply for putting in effort. If you didn't spend any time thinking about what someone in these scenarios might truly NEED, you're at best wasting everyone's time, and at worst doing harm to those you're intending to help.
If you saw someone broken down on the side of the highway, and decided you would "help" by pulling over and rummaging around in their engine bay with a cheery attitude, then by your metric this is fine because it requires effort and arguably some risk. Who wouldn't want this kind of help, right?
It requires effort but less than trying to understand how you could help them, so the point still stands. And even though they might genuinely help others, it’s important to educate people to stop doing it this way, as it can be more harmful than doing nothing.
You are thinking like an engineer, you analyze the problem, and try to find the most efficient solution. It is also my line of thought.
But many people don't think like that. They value action and instinct above thinking and planning, and to be fair, sometimes, it is for the best. But sometimes, they do counter productive things that are infuriating for people with the mindset of an engineer.
It doesn't mean they are not good people. They can be the kind who will run to save you while the engineer type will be stuck there thinking about the best course of action. I think society needs both.
That is not in any way villainization. It was a polite and empathetic look at how well-meaning people could do harm.
That they didn't know better is an explanation, not an excuse. If you are trying to intervene in other people's lives, it's on you to understand whether or not you are doing harm. And please miss me with the false dichotomy between "cluelessly cause harm" and "do nothing ever again". It's not hard at all to ask, "Would it help if..." or, "Was it helpful when I..." and then listen to people.
> doing something to make yourself feel better at the expense of the others you're claiming to help
There has to be some name for this phenomenon in psychology.
> It's easy to imagine everyone is 'always loved' if you grew up in a stable, supportive family in a safe neighbourhood, but that is not the experience for everyone.
Maybe there is a cycle with families similar to the idea that good times create weak people which create hard times which create strong people who create good times.
A loving family creates people who only know love and don't understand disfunction of a family, who then create disfunctional families by not knowing how to avoid the pitfalls, which then creates people who have to struggle out of disfunction who then know how to create a loving family by avoiding the pitfalls of disfunction.
I’m no psychologist, but from what I’ve read it’s inherently damaging to be raised in a dysfunctional family, and that’s more likely to lead to another dysfunctional generation. People from supportive families may not naturally be the most empathetic, but they’re less likely to have issues with drugs, gambling, alcohol, violence, etc if I understand correctly.
When you’re impressed by those who have struggled out of dysfunction and became stellar people because/in spite of it, that could be selection bias.
From experience, being raised in dysfunction provides a model for (maybe?) survival, but if one wants to improve things, the only model you have is one of failure. Knowing what fails can be useful, but it is orders of magnitude more useful to know what works.
People who want to make good faith efforts are a valuable thing. They are willing to do the work and, typically, they genuinely care.
Not everything they do will be useful. Sometimes they don’t know what to do or are directed by others. When things don’t work well, those folks should be redirected to more useful things and not chastised (which can kill motivation).
Yes, and if their motivation disappears after they’ve been instructed on the less feel-good more difficult intervention, then they’re fair game for ridicule
I wouldn't necessarily consider 'always loved' a precondition to health. In some psychological literature, a necessary requirement to raise a mentally healthy adult is having a 'frustrating' mother who forces her child to separate and establish boundaries - and of course still have unconditional but boundaried love.
Having an overly-loving, overprotective mother does not allow the child to establish boundaries in the same way as an emotionally abusive mother. Perhaps these children would become codependents or have fake, overdone empathy.
There are two sides to the trauma coin! And with just two comments into the post, perhaps we've already seen both?
Consider if out of N they saw and attempted to speak with, a single person had "a switch flip" in their head to give the conversation a chance and they ended up forming a deep connection and lifelong friendship, perhaps going on to turn their life around completely.
Would the "Ew. they don't actually care, i'm going to ignore them, feel bad about it, and complain to their bosses" of the %Depressed*(N-1) others outweigh that?
In other words, what's P & Q here:
for personThoughtVec of peoplesThoughtVecs:
impact += P * dot(personThoughtVec, thought2vec("switch flip..."))
- Q * dot(personThoughtVec, thought2vec("Ew..."))
Personally, I'd put them orders of magnitude apart.
Yeah, as kid I thought "moral calculus" was literal advanced math, and was disappointed to learn that attempts to quantify morality had been abandoned. That turned to gratitude when I saw people actually attempting it in the wild.
> Game theory and bayesian statistics are somewhat related to it.
> They don't quantify morality but they may explain the logic behind some moral judgment, and allow for extrapolation.
Kind of, but this is a bit fuzzy langauge.
Game theory can, if one assumes rational choice theory as a given [0], re-explain what purport to be moral judgements on other bases as utility-maximizing decisions and infer actual premises from them, and Bayesian statistics can be used as part of that, or to reason from probabilistic factual premises to probabilistic factual conclusions as part of combined fact-value judgements. Maybe Bayesian statistics can even be applied to get from probabilistic value premises to probabilistiv valie conclusions in some moral frameworks (but only ones that explicitly incorporate Bayesian logic as a moral premise to start with.)
[0] which may be a bad idea, because while it is sometimes a useful approximation, and is extremely convenient and tidy, rational choice theory is clearly false in the general sense.
Someone will figure out a way to mathematically map personalities out of a social profile and optimize for certain outcomes, and while posts like the one above may be made in jest, there will be someone who’ll put it in practice.
It's easy to imagine everyone is 'always loved' if you grew up in a stable, supportive family in a safe neighbourhood, but that is not the experience for everyone.