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Bees can learn, remember, think and make decisions (worldsensorium.com)
237 points by dnetesn on June 6, 2023 | hide | past | favorite | 60 comments



Remember a nature special about spiders changed the patterns of their webs because the bees learned to avoid the ones that caught their sisters.

I suppose that means spiders can learn as well?


Research on the genus Portia suggests they might be capable of learning and problem solving. I have feeling they wouldn’t be the only spiders with those abilities if it’s the case.

Edit: https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Portia_(spider)

The intelligence section has some very interesting details. I didn’t realize there was this much compelling evidence.


Oooh, that explains why one the main characters in "Children of Time" by Adrian Tchaikovsky is named Portia (it's an intelligent spider). I'm currently halfway through the book, it's great.


They are explicitly stated as being Portid spiders in the book.


Portia as a comparison and a name is also used in the scifi book Echopraxia, a sequel to Blindsight, by Peter Watts.

I recommend these things to folks who like augmented humans, weird brains, aliens, and vampires.


Awesome book - wait untll you read how they developed computers. I won't spoil it but is biological based as fitting their approach.


Remember the one where they experimented with giving spiders psychoactive drugs and observe the patterns of their webs? Quite fascinating, esp the cocaine experiment

https://youtu.be/sHzdsFiBbFc



I feel like this is less interesting if you consider the drugs are having a physical effect to cause this rather than psychological.


Wasn't that just a joke?


What a beautiful classic.


The ones in my house have learned that if they don't fuck with me or my dog, then we won't fuck with them. We all live in bug-free harmony thanks to my spider bros (jumpers - no web makers, fuck them in particular).


Yes. Indeed, even bacteria can learn.


Can't the bees just drone 'em?


iirc there are studies that suggest spiders may experience REM sleep


Bees: One of the best known architects in the world building perfect geodesic shelters with less materials and maximum efficiency


Re: maximum efficiency: I believe bees construct honeycomb cells as circles, but due to surface tension they then form themselves into hexagons to achieve a “minimal surface” (lots of popular math/science YouTube’s have covered minimal surfaces, great videos all around).

I don’t think this invalidates your ping at all, but it’s good knowledge to have. The hexagon emerges from the constructed circles.


Or they just burrow straight into wood... Or just find an empty hole that looks cozy. I drilled a bunch of holes in a post by my door and now I have some little buzzy neighbors :)


honey bees will not burrow, you may be referring to mason bees/carpenter bees and they will destroy untreated wood.


Yep! Honey bees are the weird exception, most aren't great builders


However, while it's mundane knowledge now that hives can do optimizations etc. collectively, the point of the article is, no, individual bees are intelligent.


To be honest, I'm surprised this isn't obvious.


All you have to do is go out to your garden, find stuff that has flowered, and watch a bee work to come to this assumption on your own as one will methodically visit every flower (often of an individual species), sometimes spending less than a second at each to determine if it has pollen or not, collect all it can while showing an impressive mastery of spatial awareness (while flying) and then return home with its payload.


They don't like to mix different types of pollen together in the hive, either. If you inspect a frame with pollen in cells, it's usually this cool array of different yellow/orange/brown colors because of this.


This is why AI is an oxy moron in terms of our own intelligence is implemented via the biology of our brain re-using sensor cell signals in a new way.

An example, our geo-spatial sensory signals are re-used to organize memories and that then serves to act as emphasis filter.

Or in short words our intelligence is not from neurons but from re-using our sensor cell signal circuits in new ways.


Perspective: 1/100,000th the # neurons of a human.


Another perspective: If a human weighs in at 72 kg and a honey bee worker weighs in at 120 mg, then the bee is 600,000 times smaller — weightwise — than a human. Doesn't that mean that a bee has 6 times the number neurons per body mass unit than a human?


My brother in law is a bee keeper and we were able to catch 2 wild honey bees swarms this year. A couple days after they swarm he takes them him and marks the queen. This is so they'll know if it’s someone else’s swarm from near by.

Another thing he does is break apart large hives. He’ll keep them a few miles away so they don’t go back to the original hive. When he brings them over them will do these figure 8’s and start orienting themselves with the sun. Very cool to watch.


> However, bees can see hidden ultraviolet floral patterns that are invisible to us, and those patterns lead the bees to flowers’ nectar.

The article mentions this hidden ultraviolet floral pattern that is invisible to us; but is there a way we can reveal that using UV cameras or similar? I'd love to see this pattern.

It's fascinating to think that flowers might have evolve to optimise themselves to the vision of bees in a way we are completely unaware of with the naked eye.


UV cameras exist. Obviously the additional colors are mapped into our visible range, so that is not exactly the qualia a bee feels.

Search for "UV photography flower".



Honeybees are the only other animal that votes! https://www.goodreads.com/book/show/8705048-honeybee-democra... We could learn a thing or two from them.


We have language and writing o hand down our knowledge - it implies that each colony has to learn the same lesson over and over for each generation.

That is the main reason besides short lifespan why celephods despite their intelligence does not rule this planet.


Thought that said 'beers' on first glance. All prepared to be worried I was killing a sentient being, then, oh, bees. Bees are cool; I just chill around bees and we're good.


Piers, "Mute"


Ok. But are they stochastic bees?


Does this mean they have souls ?


Do bees have a soul?


[flagged]


All this means in practice is that they have to be killed as humanely as possible.

We're not actually establishing an embassy with the Squid, Lobster or Crab nations.


Maybe we could at least consider the lobster.

http://www.columbia.edu/~col8/lobsterarticle.pdf (David Foster Wallace)


I saw this article posted on another thread today. I already read it years ago, but returning to it still felt very fresh once again. DFW writes with such an aware, candid, and at times gentle voice. So glad he wrote as much as he did, so sad there isn't even more.

Thinking of him reminds me we all have to remember to cherish, take care of, and be gentle with ourselves and one another.


I keep bees and enjoy them on a few levels, but they're far from being sentimental animals. They regularly kill their siblings off for one reason or another; I find it helpful to think of the hive as a single, distributed organism with the individuals akin to cells.


Alternatively phrased: bee "sentimental" is different from human "sentimental" - we make self sacrifices to help other individual humans, bees make (self & other individual) sacrifices to help the hive as a whole.


We do sacrifice our own. Death penalty for one, and sending soldiers into battle, two different examples.


Or we could just not kill them?


We have to actively TRY to stop killing other human beings; animals and plants haven't got a chance.


Most people care a lot more about animals than humans. I've never seen anybody take a stay injured human home and nurse it back to health


That's because pretty much every country on the planet has some form of organized search&rescue and emergency medical services. Before that, it was much more common.

You also have to take into account that dealing with other people is much trickier than dealing with animals - and potentially much more dangerous.

Animals are simpler and predictable. There's only so much one can do to you if it gets aggressive - that's by selection, as if you found a wounded lion or other similarly dangerous animal, you'd likely shoot it dead rather than try and nurse it back to health. Can't exactly do that with humans.

Then, at high level, animal motivations are simple - avoiding threats, securing food, surviving. Humans can lie, cheat, rob you, or rape you. On the one hand, most people won't do that. On the other hand, real injuries requiring taking someone in are rare enough that staged ones are non-negligible possibility to consider. That, and acts of opportunity.

In short: humans are dangerous. If it were any other animal, we'd put it out of its misery too.

Fortunately, this too is something emergency services solve - instead of taking someone in privately, you need to, at most, shelter them short-term, and the moment you call 911 / 112, emergency response and law enforcement organizations of your country become involved, instantly granting you a large degree of protection. All that makes being helpful much easier than in the past.


In most civilised countries we actually care so much that we chose to spend a substantial part of our public budget on helping injured humans as a collective.


We care so much now that we are funding programs that put them out of their misery (1), a misery created by our civilized system and compassion communities!

(1) https://www.justice.gc.ca/eng/cj-jp/ad-am/bk-di.html


Among the many kind things we did for our first dog, the kindest thing was making and carrying out the decision to euthanize her to spare her what was likely to be months of additional suffering.

That that is taboo for humans in many places is something that I hope continues to evolve. It shouldn't be illegal to treat a family member with the same compassion that we can treat our pets.


Why not? They're food.


>to be killed as humanely as possible.

“It’s better for these animals not to be treated in humanely way”, said other humans:

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/British_war_crimes


Well, they're obviously sentient.


Humanities majors got heart attack after reading this


What do you mean?


Human is special because human is the only creature that has "mind" , "consciousness" and "ability to do reasonings and make logical decisions". No way bees or AI is capable of learning and solving problems.

These claims are all from those humanities majors, not from me.


I do not think I can tell anything about consciousness, considering that we still do not have a definition of it. But human is not the only specie who has an ability to do reasonings and make logical decisions.


Humans have the ability to philosophize but also the ability to have massive ego and underestimate anything that's not controllable or empirically verifiable.


They may be able to learn, but they haven't mastered the art of looking down on other bees because of what they chose to learn, so there's that I suppose...




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