It doesn't seem to work like you'd intuitively think - Working doesn't necessarily spend it - seeing results, winning, can fill it up. Drudgery, working on a problem with high stakes and no clear idea of the right direction, having your hard work thrown away - those drain it.
Meeting people can either drain it or fill it, depending on whether you're an introvert or not, how much you're listened to and how much you have to get off your chest.
Physical illness can drain it immensely. Eating, physically relaxing can fill it.
I don't know how to deal with it. How do I explain to coworkers and bosses why my productivity is low, set expectations around a physical illness that has lasted two years so far? An going fight with a neighbor or spouse? It's too hard sometimes.
I got nothing. Guess the only thing we can do is keep our chins up and hope for the better times to come soon.
This is a really good description of how the "mental energy meter" seems to work for me. It's almost impossible for me to tell what fills it and what drains it!
Yesterday, I spent the entire day ripping out some rotting boards from my deck and replacing them. I tore out 4 16' deck boards and another 12 4' boards from the stairs. Then cut new ones for all those and put them in.
You wouldn't think that a project like that would take 12 hours, but there were so many little subtasks that had to happen that added up to a ton of work.
I went to bed utterly physically drained, and was sure that I was going to wake up today feeling like doing nothing. Instead, I woke up at a reasonable time and went out to my yard to seed some grass. I just felt like getting more shit done!
Meanwhile though, there have been times where I finish up some big programming task at work and then have a day or two where I just can't get momentum.
I like weightlifting (although I'm a bit off the wagon currently). Sometimes, I get a huge burst of energy and focus from a session, and other times, I'm gassed and dead for the rest of the day.
Same goes for socializing. Sometimes after an event I get home and can't shut up while talking to my wife. Other times I feel like I drained all my social energy for the next week.
It's so strange how little contextual things make such a difference in whether the things I do energize or drain me.
The best thing I've seen around this issue is that burnout is caused not by working too much (within reason) but by working on things which cause a conflict with your values. Those values might be anything - if you value using your intelligence to solve hard problems but work on trivial nonsense (perceived or real) then you may burn out working 20 hours a week.
In other words: hours worked don't really correlate to the kind of deep depression-style burnout that prevents people from working for years. There is a burnout caused by working too much, but that's more of a standard chronic stress response, and can be solved simply by reducing the workload, whereas value-mismatch problems will persist even if you reduce the workload. Value-mismatch burnout requires major changes in your life to recover, basically.
Being bipolar, I am acutely aware of managing mental energy. I’m constantly running on the edge of my limit to be functional in society. I can’t borrow energy from tomorrow. I borrow from the next fours.
It seems to be impossible to explain this. People just don’t get it. They are so used to having nearly infinite reserve capacity and assume everyone else does too. I have none. Every time I run out of energy, it’s laziness, carelessness, or a dozen other moral failings because I can’t possibly be different from them.
Fortunately, I’ve been able to convince people I’m doing my best and they are willing to accept something they don’t understand.
This is my go-to resource for explaining what it’s like to live with chronic illness to healthy loved ones. Christine is far more eloquent than I could ever be.
I hate it. It goes entirely against the style of my thinking. It's also very coarse-grained; under this theory, I routinely engage in fractional reserve spoon-banking.
It's my go-to explanation anyway, because it hits the sweet spot of being close enough and easy to explain to just about anyone.
In my experience the real killer is doing difficult, but low value work.
It's particularly hard at startups, because every "pivot" is just that: a lot of hard work being discarded. You can try to rationalize it like "we learned something" or "at least we're not on that path anymore", but there's still a very real mental cost.
True, but I think it depends on the people involved. Some of us are ok with discarding a few months of hard work, and once even two years. Others are not.
I don’t know if this can be taught, but I can do it without rationalization. On the other hand, some of my previous coworkers left companies and had to enter therapy because of that.
And I notice that the usual 7 min chat with colleagues is a deep reflex to refill/reset your brain. The fog goes away and you feel capable of pushing again.
I don't know if it's a need to communicate pain, or find implicit emotional support with others.. or sensing the group doing efforts as a whole.
ps: thank you for mentioning that mental energy can go up.. most mainstream convos only mention draining. I've been very curious on how to maintain team flow and high levels of mental energy. One trick I find working often is relay work. I do something, when I feel tension, you take the wheel. Seeing you relaxes me, let me see how you handle things, can revive some mimetic reflex in the brain (oh he/she's done some progress, I want to make some too now) and just when you are now tired, I feel ready to jump in. Pair programming++
On the other hand, I always get irritated when I hear "yeah, I know I'm pushing too hard, but if I burn out I'll take a holiday."
Ha ha. You have not known burnout.
It has taken me a drastic break from work, isolation, depression, thousands of pounds in therapy, and 18 months to recover from work-related burn out. I did not write a single line of code for a year.
I am better now, maybe even better than I've ever been in my life, but I am a completely different person. There is a pre-burnout self, and a post-burnout one. (I don't code after work anymore. I do not enjoy cutting edge tech as much as I did just a couple years ago. I have become allergic to corporate life.)
Those that joke about burnout have no idea what they are talking about.
Burnout that occurs outside of work isn't talked about enough, maybe because it's mainly restricted to a certain kind of individual in specific kinds of fields like programming.
Programming itself can lead to burnout because it provides a promise of infinite possibilities, and some of us get fooled into thinking we are equally as capable as the code itself. This leads to time that could otherwise be spent getting in touch with our humanity instead being spent on countless side projects, many of which we secretly hope will lead to wealth and prestige. Virtually all of those projects will fail or reach a dead end; that may not seem like a big deal in your early 20s, but the realization of repeated failure and time spent in relative solitude can take it's toll once you hit your 30s. The burnout feeling occurs, not because you are doing anything functionally different from when you were addicted to code, but because the novelty eventually fades and it becomes clear how short life is. Worse yet, you may have nothing to show for all your effort. One may even have had their social skills atrophy. Burnout can have physiological components, but most of it is mental. The negative effects of having a passion for code may lead to a sense of worthlessness. Feeling like you are as insignificant as a smudge of excrement on a piece of tissue surging out to sea can be pretty demotivating.
>and some of us get fooled into thinking we are equally as capable as the code itself
IMHO burnout as a SW dev isn't because of the coding itself, I find that the easiest part to deal with.
It's the constant pressure to stay up to date an an industry that changes faster and faster and a job market that get more and more competitive. It's the constant sprinting towards more and more ambitious arbitrary deadlines set by sales or management using half-assed Agile and Scrum processes imposed onto you by clueless higher-ups. It's constant interruptions and multitasking in several tools you have to keep up with throughout the day: chats, calls, emails, Jira, etc. while also being expected to focus and code. It's the exhausting and time consuming interview practices. It's the idiotic and overpaid management and execs who treat you like a disposable resource and thinks colorful beanbags, ping-pong and foosball tables would make me want to spend 2h commuting to the office every day to sit in a noisy open office with a view of a concrete parking lot, and that pictures of employees in funny situations with moustaches drawn on them and turned into memes and plastered around the office means a "friendly" atmosphere and it's what I would enjoy instead of WFH in peace and quiet (maybe I'm too old or something but I can't stand my workplace treating me, a professional in my 30's, like I'm a childish toddler looking to join some kindergarten playground).
Coding and debugging alone is very pleasant for me, it's why I became a dev, but it's everything else related to this industry that breaks my will to live.
On my most cynical days all I see agile/scrum used for is a selfish tool to appease stakeholders anxiety that their directives are being worked on by the demanded date and to give the micromanaging admin types something to do. It seems to effectively transfer the stakeholder level anxiety directly onto the people doing the work.
Also you’re not “too old.” It’s called wisdom to see through the emotional manipulation for what it is. That clarity can be punishing when you don’t want to just go along with it and the toxic positivity pushed in the corporate world.
Agree 100%. My old workplace is making everyone commute to office next week so that they can “team bond and destress” by playing with office-provided toys. Really. It’s so patronising and I hate the control bosses think they have over your entire life and personality instead of just your work output.
My current job let me WFH the past couple years but now they're insisting I do the 2H+ commute again four days a week once my current project ends, and I don't think I'm going to be able to manage it long (and the office culture is exactly what you've described).
If they put me on another project I can WFH from after a few weeks, I'll stick around at least a bit longer, but I don't think I'll last if they keep expecting me to go to the office. Tech job recession be damned, I'll eat some of my savings and sit out for a few months until I find something else if I must, as much as I hate that idea.
But even that I expect will still have a lot of that bullshit you're mentioning.
I don't have a problem with coding itself, I'm having fun still working on my game in my spare time, relaxing in a quiet room at a library, but in a corporate environment my brain just feels so fractured and distracted and the projects don't really hold any interest to me.
> Burnout that occurs outside of work isn't talked about enough, maybe because it's mainly restricted to a certain kind of individual in specific kinds of fields like programming.
Wish that was true. There is an outside-work burnout that's arguably quite common in society these days, and mostly not talked about either: having kids. People who are not parents themselves, and not close with some parents of small children, they won't understand. Parents just exchange knowing glances. At least those who aren't conditioned by their society/environment to pretend everything is great and child-rearing is the Greatest Privilege and the Most Rewarding Experience in the Universe.
Going through that right now, I pretty much gave up on coding after work. I tried, telling myself that side projects are keeping me sane. True or not, the tension created by not actually being able to do them, was worse. All the things you write in the second paragraph are true - and they only get worse once you're running on negative me-time budget :).
(EDIT: At least the topic of postpartum depression has been gaining some attention these days. A case of one can easily have negative effect on multiple people across a generation, and there's still very little advance warning or support given for new mothers.)
It has taken six years and counting for me to put the pieces back together after I disintegrated.
I kept going, even when the wings had been shot off, the engine was on fire, and the yoke had been replaced with a bowl of lime chutney. Stiff upper lip, old boy, we’ll be back in Blighty soon. Just a little further and we’ll be safely on the ground. The lies I told myself, myriad.
It all, ultimately, inevitably, met a fiery end - I lost almost every element that comprised myself, and all that remained was a bitter, charred husk, barely capable of functioning homeostasis, never mind running a business, or expressing any emotion other than fury.
Six years, last year. Started, for the first time in all eternity, wanting to do things. Wanting to play a game, to watch a movie, to spend time with friends, to do, to create.
It took me utterly recusing myself from the world, therapy, drugs, more therapy, and it still isn’t quite gone - there remains a dark shadow in my mind.
> (I don't code after work anymore. I do not enjoy cutting edge tech as much as I did just a couple years ago. I have become allergic to corporate life.)
Ouch. I suspect I've been going through a low-key burnout for the last year, but (at least in my mind) I can't really stop where I am now due to having dependents.
Couple years ago, I couldn't imagine myself not coding after work. I would code stuff for myself whenever I had a spare half hour or something. Now, I can hardly get myself to even try. At first, it was about not being able to start or persevere in the act. In the last year or two, I found myself no longer even thinking about potential things to do involving any kind of creative work.
Enjoying cutting-edge tech? Sure, I've gotten cynical over the decade+ spent on HN, but it's different now. I recently realized I'm not just cynical - I plain just don't give a shit anymore. This got me by a complete surprise. I still find the (non-bullshit scammy kind of) tech intellectually interesting - but nowadays in the abstract, not enough to make myself get out of mental bed to play with it.
> It has taken me a drastic break from work, isolation, depression, thousands of pounds in therapy, and 18 months to recover from work-related burn out. I did not write a single line of code for a year.
I'm very happy you endured and recovered. I'm also scared of the possibility of this happening to me, that I may be on that trajectory and already past the point of no return.
My slow descent of 2 years into burnout didn't go that deep but I definitely brushed with your feelings.
I couldn't stop working completely but I was extremely lucky to have a manager who jumped into different orgs of the company and brought me along to a place where she felt I would be able to move away from the toxic aspects leading me into a burnout.
Regardless I still had a whole year of extremely low productivity compared to my baseline throughout my career, bouts of anxiety and depression, aversion to any kind of social aspect of work (meetings, stakeholders' management, anything to do with people), it'd take the energy of a whole day to be able to keep a professional facade up for a 45 minutes meeting, etc.
I'm definitely a very different person, professionally speaking, after that slow descent I don't feel I will ever be again the worker I was before. I'm absolutely jaded by any corporate life, I hate higher management and it's definitely not something I will pursue in life, I don't want "growth" or "career paths", I want to do the job I know how to do well, be paid for it, and completely turn off any code/work related topic outside working hours.
Taking vacation with burnout was worse for me, because I basically wasted perfectly good vacation time and came back to work feeling exactly the same, perhaps a bit worse.
The good thing about it: it's quite unlikely to happen again, as you've also pointed out: one can become quite aware of factors (corporate culture, fear of disappointing others, perfectionism, ...) which might contribute to the death spiral leading to it.
Reading your post it reminded me of a dark year that I had some years ago, where I couldn't do any work at all, and similar to you, there's a before and after for me as well.
I saw in your profile that you're building a website monitoring application. There's a ton of them out there, and I also had one myself although I scraped it some years ago. What does your app do (will do) that the other ones don't?
Basic curiosity from an internet stranger! I too would like to have a small application that could provide me with enough money to live my own life (no big aspirations, no employees, just me, the product, the clients and added value).
I know what you mean by dark year... there is one darkest week a few years ago where I just stopped functioning. My mind turned off, I barely had the energy to sit up from bed, I had gone hollow. Something had broken. It was so terrifying I decided to seek help, and after a long recovery, I made it.
That was my experience exactly. Burnout creeps on you without you realizing and only once it stops and you disconnect completely do you realize the mess you were.
I've never been able to strip the tread off a nut using just the strength of my bear hands (:p). Sure, I've over-tightened screws into nylon walls plugs or even into wood. But to damage a nut just by overfastening the bolt? I'd need a pneumatic drill at least.
Different, but I have a habit of breaking valve cover bolts too, with just a screwdriver even.
Click, swear, back it off a quarter turn. Often with vice grips. I've been lucky so far.
Not great either is the way my impact gun is designed. You put it down on the wrong side, and the direction slider gets pushed so you're ramming it back on instead of taking it off.
> One day, sitting at my workstation, I stopped typing, stared blankly at the screen for a few seconds, and a switch flipped in my head
This was what it was like for me, but I also got filled with anger at the same time. Like my brain was doing everything it could to physically stop me from working.
I took a week and a half off, but then came back and kept pushing. Now it feels even worse internally. I'm not sure what to do. I could take an extended leave maybe, but time off doesn't seem to be helping. I can sort of push through it right now, but I feel like the more I do that the worse it'll eventually get.
I'm in therapy and doing most of the self care things I can. It's keeping me afloat.
> I took a week and a half off, but then came back and kept pushing. Now it feels even worse internally. I'm not sure what to do. I could take an extended leave maybe, but time off doesn't seem to be helping. I can sort of push through it right now, but I feel like the more I do that the worse it'll eventually get.
I tried this way for many years. Work hard for 4-5 years, then one year of relaxation and not working at all. Was fine during the year of relaxation, but at the end of the "work" cycle it always felt like shit.
What I found working better is instead being able to have the cycle nailed down for each day + the weekends. Absolutely nothing after 4pm related to work, until I'm back at work in the morning next day. If I even start thinking thoughts related to it, I actively push them away, even if it would be helpful.
In the beginning, it was really hard, as I'm used to just walking about and thinking about work. But now after a while, my brain automatically go into leisure mode at 4pm, and it finally feels like I get actual rest between leaving and coming back to work.
What also helped me a lot is to deactivate notifications of every communication channel ( email, messenger even the phone )
If notifications are turned on, it feels like other people have control over my mental state, because if an incoming email makes a ping it means that the person that just sent me a message caused my focus to shift in the work I am currently doing.
Even if it feels minimal this compounds quite a lot over the course of a day.
I'm currently reading "Stolen Focus: Why You Can't Pay Attention—and How to Think Deeply Again" by Johann Hari and there's an explicit mention of the negative effect on people that immediate notifications bring. Just wanted to mention that it's not only you.
I really needed a week off in December, and that got delayed 3 times by 3 months of crazy overtime, and something in me just broke. I finished the project but there were a few days in there where it took real fortitude to keep going and put myself in my desk chair.
I took a week and a half off, which wasn't anywhere close to enough after that, and after a couple of aimless weeks back, I quit my job and now I'm starting a new one and I set up a month off in between. I don't know that it's been quite enough, but it has helped immensely. I'm going to be taking at least a week off per quarter for better mental health maintenance.
Although I didn't quit my job, having sizeable breaks between different jobs has been quite valuable. Time off between gigs feels more "free" because the expectations aren't the same when the break is finished.
I'd strongly advise taking the extended leave available to you. Think of it this way: if you’re just staying afloat but still struggling, there’s very little buffer between staying afloat and not; you very likely will take leave one way or another; you’ll be glad you made the choice and didn’t wait for it to be made for you.
>Dependable Drew, an ear to listen, a shoulder to cry on
I used to be the same as a student - always trying to fix all those broken people around me, somehow attracting mostly mentally-ill friends, visiting too many in psychiatric wards. I thought I was doing good, but I was just letting myself get dragged down. I haven't fixed a single one of their problems, I just had my energy pulled out of me. Looks like OP put himself into a similar position to mine... I learned the hard way that I am the captain of my own ship, others' ships will happily pull mine down to the bottom of the ocean. I have a responsibility towards my own ship and walked away.
It's a long, sad story (get your hanky), but I have spent my entire adult life, in a fellowship that includes some of the most dangerous, selfish, and just downright nuts people on earth.
I.e. really interesting and fun people.
But ones that often have little respect for personal boundaries.
I have learned to enforce my boundaries. I don't expect other to respect them.
At the same time, I have found that I don't need to use nukes to enforce my boundaries. Very often, a simple "No, I won't do that." is sufficient, as opposed "OMG! Get the hell away from me, you maniac!".
Also, and I feel this is a lesson that many folks these days, could benefit from, if I initiate a relationship with hostility, it is likely to forevermore be a non-productive relationship.
It usually costs me nothing, to initiate relationships with courtesy. The other party may still be an uncouth bastard, but control of the future of the relationship is now in my hands; not theirs. I can still maintain courtesy, and am able to avoid dunking the relationship immediately.
I used to be in a similar situation. It hurts because I really do want to help people. Often, you're not helping, but merely building co-dependence, or otherwise teaching them to rely on people. (ie, you, or you next enabler.) Pure sympathy really ends up not being the best way to help people. Setting boundaries, and tough love often go much further to actually changing behaviors.
I don't let myself burnout anymore. And I'd still say I work hard afterhours. I think what happened for me was disconnection from my sense of purpose mixed with being overworked leading to a "what's the point" vibe.
1. It probably took me 3-4 years in my late 20s, early 30s to recover. I just worked 9-5 then.
2. For me "work-life" balance as a concept was even causing me stress.
It conflicted with my sense of purpose. My advice is to actively prune and reject advice/suggestions that weigh on you and disconnect you from who you are.
3. Jiro dreams of sushi as a movie saved me. It reminded me of who I wanted to be and what I want to do with my life. This 90 year old is a sushi making expert works day in and day out at his craft. How does he have that energy? This isn't about hustle it's about motivation, inspiration and deeper purpose. So I recommend finding yours or reconnecting with it!
Ya def take a break, but I think there's often a deeper issue that's being exacerbated by being over worked. For me, I feel stronger than ever, but as others have shared, I feel like a different person. There's definitely pre-post self.
Most of the time when I read something like this, the responses gravitate around ”I took X weeks off, it was really good, you should do it.” I want to point out that the problem is unfortunately much worse and more complicated than that. I won’t even mention the many people who can’t do that, period (because their job does not have that affordance and/or they are the main/only source of income for the family). But even those who in theory could, the point is that some of the worse consequences come subtly and invisibly. Many of those who pat you on the back and say ”hey bro, take a week off” are silently judging you after you do that. Many might even be actively using that to get an edge on you. Those who are still on the team for that week will invariably ask themselves ”where is that guy when I need him” or ”why can’t he just take the pressure like I do?”. Then three months later after the dirt has settled you find yourself in the wrong end of a ”sudden downsizing”. Unfortunately we as a society don’t deal with depression with honesty and seriousness; most of the time all we say is ”you gotta take care of yourself” as if the blame/weight of the entire thing is on the person. Maybe it is? I don’t know. But personally, the only thing that really helps me when I have my events is to remember: it’s a war out there, most people are not my friends, but I have the strength to win, and I can do it. I’ve survived so far and I’ll survive again.
It's really a shocker to me whenever I see people in obviously difficult situations worry about their productivity. Like is this really what modern life has become? Build whole identities around being productive and doing a good job to an extent that someone who sees a foundation of their life falling apart is feeling guilt about not doing enough for their work.
Employers don’t care. My father died of pancreatic cancer in November 2021. Then in October 2022, my mother was diagnosed with ovarian cancer. My dad had a business with financial issues I also had to close and take care to. At the same time, I needed to help my mother with medical treatments and moving into a smaller apartment.
Despite these challenges the past two years, I’ve showed up to work consistently and did my best under the circumstances. During my performance review in January, I had a very negative review. I was told my productivity had declined and I “consistently had challenges” the past year. There was no empathy or understanding of my situation. Employers see us as tools to use, abuse, and throw out with little care of us as an individual. I’m doing the best I can.
To just about any business, unless you have a very close relationship with the owner, you really are just another expense. If they think they're losing more money on you than they're earning and that the benefit won't even be realized later, they will get rid of you. It's horrible and yet I can also see their side. The company needs to at least make enough to keep paying all of its other expenses and it gets hard if a lot of people they keep on have similar issues to you. And some of those similar issues might not even be real. There's people who would see the lenience you're getting and take advantage of that to also get undeserved lenience.
Here's hoping that you are able to keep your job. A poor performance review still leaves a chance to stay. It sounds like at least some of the things that have needed your time and attention are no longer overlapping, which might be enough to be able to satisfy your employer without going into full burnout.
It's like the issue is a whole system of abuse, not individuals and individual companies. The incentives are not aligned with being humane, there's no benefit to actually be human in business apart from showing up on a list as a "great place to work at™", that's the only incentive to put up a humane facade to this faceless monster.
> I had a very negative review. I was told my productivity had declined and I “consistently had challenges” the past year. There was no empathy or understanding of my situation. Employers see us as tools to use, abuse, and throw out with little care of us as an individual. I’m doing the best I can.
I came here to post specifically about this. I have been there. In the last 1 year, my FIL passed away, grandmother passed away, wife had 2 IVFs and one full-blown miscarriage, Dad was hospitalized for blood sugar spikes, mom was bedridden a few weeks due to blood issues, MIL needed help with property documents and setting up her old age, and my wife's career took a shot because she was a victim of corporate politics.
Notice, I haven't talked about myself because I haven't had time to even think about my own well-being. Am I burned out? Likely. What does my employer (and line manager) care about? Why is a risky service being rolled out slowly and why are other reviewers taking a long time to review code. I get a poor performance feedback for cherry-picked instances, thus creating an environment where perfection is required. Walking on eggshells if you will.
When someone asks what is wrong with American corporate culture, I empathize. America is an immoral, corrupt and exploitative society.
Relatable. I once spent a couple days in hospital because my friend got into an accident. The first day I show up in office my manager calls me into his office, asks how my friend is and then immediately starts grilling me on how I am behind on my work. And this manager was a good _person_ but these companies push you to be less human at times.
Yes, my manager is aware of what I’m dealing with in my personal life. However, it doesn’t seem like that has any bearing on performance reviews. I can easily see how people dealing with situations like this can face burnout.
I'm having similar family issues like are describing. Fortunately my work is very accommodating. They let me WFH and it's ok if I have to leave with no notice to take care of a family emergency.
My company values me as an employee and I value them as an employer. That's how it should be. They're not all horrible out there, but if you find yourself in a horrible place like you are describing, they are not worthy of your hard work.
One of the most gratifying things in work is when you are finally fed up and quit, the surprise on your manager's face, like they never saw it coming.
Can't speak for everyone but my worry for productivity while on the edge of burnout had nothing to do with sacrificing myself for the company. I was worried for my job, that's it. That falling below some unreasonable threshold of work done would get me fired, while realizing I can't keep up with the amount and speed of required work.
Fortunately it was mostly in my head and passive aggressive worked very well in reducing expectations. To a point where I became stressed that I was asked too little. Literally "they" forgot about me for a while. So while enjoying a paycheck for nothing, I realized that cannot last so sadly I became more involved, which lead to more work. At least for the time being I seem to have mastered the screws to throttle productivity and become a classic "do the minimum" loser from the Gervais hierarchy. (Which if you familiar with the concept just means long term sustainable amount and nothing more, nothing less).
It's probably not the same experience for everyone, but when I was burned out or depressed, I "had" to cling to the things I could still have some control. Being productive was the main one. It also would distract me from the other issues. Of course, excessive work was causing most of the issues, now it's easy to see.
I got burned out when I wasn't in a good place. Having the same experience when you have a stable relationship/friendships/family life, healthy hobbies and not-too-limited finances, is probably much different than what I experienced.
Imagine you're about to not be able to work for the next 2 years, perhaps longer. Like no work gets done whatsoever, no job for you, nothing gets fixed around the house. People that are burning out are in this situation and subconsciously realize it. That's why recovery usually starts from a full crash against the wall.
I crashed really hard once. I didn't enjoy my life at all before that, I worked 16 hours/day and it somehow wasn't enough. They just gave me more work to do. The doctor put me on 60mg duloxetine and gave me one week sick leave. I couldn't even buy groceries because my mind was broken so I had no clue how to get back to work. I would get lost in the super market and start crying from the confusion and leave. I stayed home for 3-4 months doing absolutely nothing, and got back to work, working 50% but they just gave me more work until I worked 16 hours a day and I couldn't see any brightness in the future. Spent 3 weeks in a psych ward because I was going to end my life. I had a very sophisticated plan and the doctors said depressed people don't make such plans.
Anyways, in there I fell in love with a broken girl and I suddenly had a future. She was very broken and it hurt me to see her hurt herself all the time. I worked for 1-2 months until I quit and went to the Peruvian Amazon for 4 months and tried traditional medicines. It really changed me, when I came back I got another job and everything was fine for about 8 months until they restructured the company and things got really stressful. I went to bed on friday and when I woke up it was tuesday. Another doctor put me on sick leave again and they prescribed me other pills, but instead I resigned and went back to Peru.
I don't have money but at least I'm sane.
For anyone who read this.. listen to your body and get help before you crash. Take vacations often, don't accept overtime. It's not worth it. You're gonna spend all the money you make on recovery. Change jobs if you have to. Find a therapist.
Yes! Don't neglect vacation time and be sure to take a proper vacation. None of this "I'll be gone but I'm still reachable" bullshit. Lie and say you won't have access to a computer if that's what it takes.
And be sure the vacation is long enough. 2 weeks straight is probably the optimal balance between practicality and relaxability. Though in many cases you may be capped at 1 week straight, but that is still far better than no break at all.
I'd say 3 weeks or more if possible. Where do they cap it to 1 week? In Sweden the employer has to allow you 4 weeks of uninterrupted vacation during the summer months.
Heh, one time I asked for vacation 6 months in advance. My girlfriend had planned everything, booked all the hotels etc. And one week before the vacation they said I couldn't go because everyone who wasn't fired had quit and I was the only developer they had. In the end they agreed that I could go if I brought my work laptop and had my phone on 24/7. This was about 2 weeks after I had been on my first stress related sick leave. I got a panic attack at work and ended up at the psychiatric emergency where they told me to stay home 2 weeks and that I needed antidepressants (to which my response was "I don't need any f*cking pills, I need more consultants!!" but they couldn't help me with that. I stayed home 1 week staring into the ceiling before going back to work. I was going on vacation soon anyways so I thought I could endure 1 week more.
Had a hard time disconnecting during that vacation.
One doctor recommended me a 4 month vacation and told me "go to India or Peru and do something completely different" and I quit my job and did just that. Should have done that earlier.
(Sorry for the late response, I hadn't checked my replies all week)
Companies in the US can put limits on consecutive vacation days. Both jobs I've had in the financial industry had a limit of 7 business days. While not impossible to go beyond that, it ends up needing approval that goes higher up than your manager.
I'm sure some industries provide more flexibility on consecutive days off, but if they do it's likely because workers don't even have enough days to take much more than that off. According to Forbes[1] the average number of vacation days an employee in the US gets is 11. That average moves to 15 after working at the same place for 5 years. Even though 15 days is enough to take 3 weeks straight, it would be a terrible idea to use all vacation days in one shot. A year is a long time. You're certainly going to be needing another break before a full 12 months has elapsed.
I only managed to stay afloat because I could still work retail, but mentally I was completely checked out for over a year. My physical 'candle' was the only thing I had left to burn, but as a disabled person, doing this sucks sometimes.
It's this or homelessness and no treatment, though.
Some people definitely do fixate (and derive a sense of purpose, whether that's good or not) from perpetual productivity improvement – I think this is why online productivity and life hack gurus are so popular.
But for some, it's all about looking like they care about productivity because that's what their job or manager expects. Certainly this was the case for me. Throughout my twenties, I pushed myself to be more "productive" in my career because I thought I had to look like a go-getter to the people who paid me. I put in extra hours and effort, and even enrolled in an online university course to further expand my skills (resulting in me having next to zero free time!).
I still like to work hard and do good work, but I no longer push myself to be very good at everything I do. "Competent" is my aim. Doing my paid work to a standard that is "good enough" is not only easier on my stress levels, but my managers continue to report satisfaction with my work.
i ask the same question of myself. i haven't experienced a burnout before so that i needed to take a break to recover. i guess it's because i never allowed myself to be dragged to the point of burning out. i have a partner, family, and friends i love who need me to be when they need me. so my simple guide to no is whether any activity compromises my ability to be there for them. i'm very aware of the reality that nothing i do in tech, especially at a company, will be remembered 10 years from now (when even the company and its founders may be forgotten in 30 years or so). that really simplifies a lot for me: would i rather grind on this technology thing or spend time listening to my little brother goof around? play with my nieces? be in the presence of my parents? they're the ones who know who i am, in fact. no a mass of faceless internet souls (however gentle or kind they may be). to hell with overworking ourselves until burnout!
Acute stress messes with your ability to prioritize well. When you're burnt out, that effect can linger even when you've no reason to be stressed. It can frequently manifest as worrying about small stuff in the presence of a much bigger problem.
Possibly one of most valuable things you can do is to focus on better quality of questions you're asking yourself in your inner dialogue when thinking about anything throughout the day.
I hate to say it but I do believe it'll help you a lot in this situation - brainwash yourself by listening to motivational speakers like Napoleon Hill, Brian Tracy, Tony Robins or any others (pick your best, it doesn't matter; ask GPT4 for a list if you want to explore more).
Do something random outside like going cycling on some local meetup.
If you're unable to do this kind of stuff, your top priority is to take professional help asap.
> Possibly one of most valuable things you can do is to focus on better quality of questions you're asking yourself in your inner dialogue when thinking about anything throughout the day.
+1 for this. Learning how to "talk" to yourself with honesty, but also self-compassion, is so important. I wish someone had explained this to me earlier in my life because its a difficult thing to learn and I still struggle with it. Its so easy to deceive or distract yourself when thinking about your own life.
Ok, I actually take it back, if it was depression the author wouldn't say they'll take time to rest - this text does look like burnout indeed.
Burnout and depression are two different things (different cause, some similar/overlaping but still distinct symptoms and different kind of treatment).
I'd phrase as 'depression is burnout of the self', or 'burnout is depression of non-self contexts' such as alternate, or specialist contexts, per project/ profession, etc. (with self simply being the default context)
Yes, it's also probably worth adding GPT4 on the list before seeking professional help - it may help indeed.
Using it as daily help to rephrase your inner dialogue questions - great idea. A lot of human reinforcement tuning went towards improvements in this area.
You’re downvoted. But I had it. It is great to rest 3 days and do 4 days shit diving. Of course, pay was lover accordingly. I gladly would do 32 hours on 4 days instead of standard German 35 hours on 5 days. Paradoxically it is impossible to find 4 days position despite it is being advertised in ads as optional feature. No hiring manager is offering it for real.
The "of course, pay was lower" isn't what the 4DWW movement is fighting for though: it's about having 1 fewer day of work with no increase in hours and no loss of pay.
Productivity has been going up for half a century now with profits going to the top rather than the workers. All workers deserve 1 day less of work.
Us tech workers too: with modern tooling spinning up a new service (a server in production) can take under a day of work while in the past it would be weeks! We do so much more today per day than ever before yet don't usually have the option to work fewer days.
>> The "of course, pay was lower" isn't what the 4DWW movement is fighting for though: it's about having 1 fewer day of work with no increase in hours and no loss of pay.
Then I vote for the 2 days movement. Joke aside, I wasn't aware that you were promoting a political movement. Sure, just working less and getting the same money prevents work related burnout. But that is not really big news and simply not feasible in this highly competitive world.
> Sure, just working less and getting the same money prevents work related burnout. But that is not really big news and simply not feasible in this highly competitive world.
This world is made by people, constructed under rules of people, people are in control of what this "competitive" world is or isn't. It's not a force of nature, it's not the heat death of the Universe.
Changing a social system is extremely hard, probably some of the hardest problems we as humans can face but it doesn't mean I or you should just accept this "competitive world". It's been created by us, it's on us to tear it down.
A four-day workweek pilot was so successful most firms say they won’t go back
Companies are choosing to keep the policy because it was better for the company too. Over 80% of the companies trialing 4DWW in one large sample chose to keep the policy!
That wouldn't have prevented the OPs burnout/depression.
While I agree that the amount of working hours should be limited, balance is for all health related measures crucial. So, I believe reducing the daily hours is more beneficial than reducing the number of days with equivalent longer hours and potentially accumulating stress and tiredness.
I agree but it’s not about us but about the owners of capital and shareholder driven quarterly capitalism. The economic system would need a huge adjustment to entertain a 4 day work week. Some of that adjustment would be logistical and some cultural but both are needed. A lot of us fight to keep our 5-day work week from becoming a 6 to 7 day work week so some shareholder can make a fast profit and move onto something else.
You're right there would be an adjustment; but in my estimate, much of it would likely be beneficial too: e.g. a Yoga business has more customers because people have more free time now.
I’m sitting here on the subway to meet up with friends in nyc. It’s been almost a year since I left my last job. Almost two years since my divorce.
I quit my life in SF and tried to restart. Thinking - maybe I can find a new partner if I explore the entire world. (Nope - still as unable to get a date as I was when I met my ex) Maybe I’ll find a job that will be better. Won’t know though cause I can’t bother myself to do more than a few leetcode problems every week instead of the required 40+ you need to do to be ready to modern interviewing.
I’m just burning through dwindling savings as I lost a huge amount after I got divorced (bad financial decisions poured on by not being reliable for anyone but myself). I’m not sure when I’ll go back to work or solve any problem but my standards for everything are higher. In some ways - I’d rather die than go back to the miserable grind. I could only justify it because I was married but now I can’t at all.
Grinds are temporary, death is permanent. May be useful to talk to someone to help. Sometimes savings can be more of a hinderance as it allows you to extend this moment and dwell in the negative space. Hopefully the friends you met up with can help you break away from this thinking for a brief moment. Definitely don't push off counseling, always nice to have a listening ear.
Thanks Drew (in case you’re reading HN during this time).
Completely unrelatedly (I haven’t read this post at that point), earlier this week I upped from low monthly to medium yearly plan on Sourcehut.
For me burnout is tricky in the sense that it can get sticky and spiral out of control, and depend on external environment. What helped me get out of the last one is being reminded that other people to some degree depend on me completing something and moving to a city I like.
I burned out last year, luckily I had the funds to quit without anything lined up and been semi-retired ever since. I'd like to work again but modern software jobs ask for too much. Why should I dedicate so much of my life and brainpower to 24/7 oncall and managing development? No amount of money is worth the stress.
It's more stressful, more difficult, but working for yourself, on things you care about, is the difference between being engaged and burning out. It satisfies me deep in my soul. These days I work harder than I have ever have in my life, and I feel more free than I have ever felt before.
We are not made to slave for someone else. Let alone 8 hours a day, sitting in a cubicle, preparing TPS reports, for 50 years. I still have post-traumatic guilt when I take an afternoon off or I take a longer lunch break.
Go build something you care about, with your hands and sweat.
As someone who is considering doing the same, would you mind sharing how many times your yearly expenses you consider enough to quit without anything lined up?
Not OP, but I quit 10 years ago without a clear plan with around 1.5 years of runway. Did a bit of freelancing after that and now run my own company. I'm usually more on the risk-averse side of things, but that felt safe enough for me.
Exclusively from previous work relationships. Mostly around network infrastructure stuff (BGP automation) and e-commerce full-stack development and operation. I explicitly only took gigs that where very clear in scope to ensure I had enough time to try out my own ideas.
I get why you ask but it really doesn't matter, when you burn out you have no choice but to quit. The money determines how long you can relax before getting your next job.
I feel you. The part that resonates with me the most is we have a choice to make: give up or fight. Our time will pass either way.
I had many of these moments in my life and, after some hesitation, always picked the get up and fight mode. I hope you will too. It wil get us places for sure.
I don't know if I may misunderstand you, but from personal experience this approach is quite risky, all these little "get up" fights will compound, wear you off and lead to a hard collapse in the end, small patching will just prolong the crash. It's important to see (with help) when the "fight" is just not worth it anymore and sometimes pulling the emergency break is the best thing to do, jeahh you'll may hurt/disappoint others when doing so, but for the sake of your own health and sanity this is quite often the better choice (imho).
It’s weird, but I’ve gone the opposite way. Whenever I get to the point where it’s ‘lie down and give up, or get up and fight’, I feel like it’s perfectly fine for me to just lie down and see if I’ll have motivation another day.
Yeah, but then you have: It seems like every week or two this year, another crisis presented itself, each manageable in isolation.
I've had this happen and it really grinds you down when you work full-out for months and, just when you think you've contained all the crises, the next one drops.
I’ve probably been burntout for a while. Haven’t had a vacation in a long time, haven’t been making the progress I want to be etc
At the same time chalking it all up to “burnout” seems dishonest. I’ve not been doing a good job —- I lack general discipline, have been on and off abusing drugs, been too alone and existential.
I don’t think an abrupt break is going to fix these things so I stay put, trying to fix underlying issues or make enough progress to be actually mindless on a vacation someday.
FWIW, I felt the same, and taking a few months off helped me tremendously. Not that I'm fully healed or anything, but it gave me some new perspectives, and it feels like I've regained some of my mental health.
An autobiographical observation about burnout which perhaps can help someone.
I enjoy working hard. Long hours, difficult problems, etc etc. On some occasions this has resulted with me either flirting with burnout or actually experiencing it. Crucially, not always.
The difference between burnout and just tiredness has, in my experience, been people.
Situations that (could)/result in burnout are those in which work is coupled with a recurring negative social interaction at work. A work relationship that results in feeling insecure and vulnerable.
In my case these have been:
1. Working with a "nice guy" that nonetheless tears down your work, making you question your value/worth or value of your work.
2. Working with someone with a very fragile ego that requires walking on eggshells, or even just avoiding collaborating with him/her in order to avoid conflict.
So for me, burnout has been much more about the social element. And crucially, when that negative social element is not there, hard work can be the most invigorating feeling in the world (not hyperbole).
The only cure I've found for avoiding burnout when working with a person with whom I just don't click has been to quit or fire them. It has little to do with the hours put in.
I found it helpful in understanding the underlying causes of my own feelings of burnout. Also, don't be put off that the book says it's for women. The core lessons seem to apply to everyone.
Not necessarily a methodology/technique to avoid burnout itself, but rather a kind of "algorithm" that helps reduce the suffering that comes from it.
(It's technically a manual for physical pain, but I found that it works just as well for things like burnout...)
"Caregiver burnout" is a flavor associated with prolonged stress and putting everyone else's needs above your own. If you're a people-pleaser, you'll probably flirt with this at some point in your life unless you deliberately prioritize your own joy, rest, and well-being.
I’m very thankful to people who write these things, because they helped me recognize burn out and address it when I was early in my career. I would not have handled it at all well without the pattern matching
I know some people who seem to be able to push forward year after year after year, maintaining this extremely productive pace and having no apparent issues with burnout. I wonder what makes this possible, is it based in a healthy upbringing, some innate brain properties, or did they just luck out into a local equilibrium of life-work?
I wonder if it isn’t like social media: you only see one facet of their lives. Maybe after work they don’t have the energy to do anything at all, or maybe their relationships are a mess as a result, etc. You just don’t know how much their “work persona” sucks out of them.
It doesn't seem to work like you'd intuitively think - Working doesn't necessarily spend it - seeing results, winning, can fill it up. Drudgery, working on a problem with high stakes and no clear idea of the right direction, having your hard work thrown away - those drain it.
Meeting people can either drain it or fill it, depending on whether you're an introvert or not, how much you're listened to and how much you have to get off your chest.
Physical illness can drain it immensely. Eating, physically relaxing can fill it.
I don't know how to deal with it. How do I explain to coworkers and bosses why my productivity is low, set expectations around a physical illness that has lasted two years so far? An going fight with a neighbor or spouse? It's too hard sometimes.
I got nothing. Guess the only thing we can do is keep our chins up and hope for the better times to come soon.