I thought HN might be interested in this based on the post yesterday challenging people to avoid getting drunk/live in the moment. I noticed there was a lot of misunderstanding as to how alcohol works on people/groups, so this might be informative to some.
I personally did not care for the article (http://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=3552363) because it was not technology related, at all. The only link it had to anything technology related was where the author worked.
If you don't like to drink, don't. If you like to drink, do so responsibly and be considerate to others.
Nobody has the right to make value judgements about other people's lifestyles, on this site.
I disagreed with that entire article, but the fact that it wasn't tech-related doesn't mean it wasn't suitable for HN - neither, for that matter, does the fact that you or I disagreed with it.
" because it was not technology related, at all. The only link it had to anything technology related was where the author worked."
I find articles like this interesting, regardless of the fact that they may be far from purely technical. I happen to think that technology is a means, not an end. Finding different perspectives on problems or circumstances that I may not have been exposed to allows me to better weigh pro's and con's of an issue and think of how technology could help solve/change/improve things.
There is something about the cultural dimension of social
problems that eludes us. When confronted with the rowdy
youth in the bar, we are happy to raise his drinking age,
to tax his beer, to punish him if he drives under the
influence, and to push him into treatment if his habit
becomes an addiction. But we are reluctant to provide him
with a positive and constructive example of how to drink.
The consequences of that failure are considerable,
because, in the end, culture is a more powerful tool in
dealing with drinking than medicine, economics, or the
law.
I wonder how such cultural messages could be introduced, if they do not exist presently.
It doesn't seem like something that the government can do anything about, so it makes sense that the govt reaches for new laws and restrictions to address the problem (if unfortunate and ineffectual).
Look at other countries. In Europe for example, many families drink wine with their meals. I knew the taste of wine and beer as young as 10 probably. My parents would have wine and beer with their meals and it never turned into a drunken debauchery as many American expect it to. I could tell they got drunker because they talked louder for example. I never got really drunk that young and never really wanted to binge drink later.
I got drunk on occasion with friends (and regretted it) but it most often happened with American friends (who were more likely to binge drink I think). So this bad attitude towards alcohol has somewhat rubbed off on me as well after many years of living here.
Well, the anti-drinking populace are telling him not to drink. And it's good advice, considering that if he's rowdy he has probably exceeded the government recommended maximum consumption level. He can never satisfy everybody anyway, so what is the problem here? I don't think the youth have problems with people not liking them drinking.
If I understood this article as I think I did, your line of reasoning is exactly what the author highlights as the center of a cultural misunderstandings regarding the effects of alcohol. The kid's rowdiness isn't so much a consequence of his drinking than it is a social conditioning that taught him it's ok to be rowdy when you're drunk, it's expected and it's understood. Under different circumstances (in another culture), he would drink exactly the same, but would act completely differently.
I think the main point he's trying to convey is that, rather than focusing on attacking alcohol on all fronts, some effort could be put forth in culturally redefining our belief of what people are supposed to act like when they drink (see the passage on first generation Italian immigrants).
"it's ok to be rowdy when you're drunk, it's expected and it's understood"
And here you've nailed the point that the OP of the first alcohol related post on HN completely missed. His repeated assertion of "drinking to get buzzed/drunk" was what riled everyone up so much - people I drink with are perfectly capable of drinking 5-6 pints of 5% beer without losing their ability to talk sensibly and act sensibly. (That's completely aside from the health considerations of regular consumption).
We don't drink specifically to get "buzzed/drunk". That's just a small bonus. Beer in the UK is worth drinking for its own sake! (The beer here in Australia, less so).
We don't drink specifically to get "buzzed/drunk".
That's just a small bonus. Beer in the UK is worth
drinking for its own sake!
That's funny of you to say, as Britons (at least in continental europe) are renown for being violent drunks (i.e. violent when drunk, not that they are all drunk & violent).
I've never actually seen any rowdy drunks in the many pubs I visited in the UK, despite the many people there drinking heavily. But then again, I never went to the rowdy pubs.
I remember being told not to wander around downtown Nottingham around 11pm (when the pubs let out) after football matches because of that rowdiness. I also think it points to the cultural nature because I never had that concern in the other parts of the UK I've visited (I spent about six months over 2.5 years in the UK, well over half of that in Nottingham).
1. Stereotypes are not always grounded in reality.
2. I suspect in this case they are probably based on british tourists in Prague/Berlin/Vienna/Budapest getting wasted out of their minds rather than britons drinking at home.
As a Briton, I can confirm that there definitely is a significant portion of Britons that do tend to binge drink to the point of becoming violent. However, whilst significant, it's still a small portion - most Britons do not, and generally if you go into a pub, even late on a Friday or Saturday, it's full of drunk but friendly and good-natured people just relaxing and enjoying themselves.
I think, in my experience, what I've seen definitely seems to support the cultural argument. One point my friends have raised is that at Football (Soccer) matches, alcohol is generally banned because of how rowdy people get, whilst at Rugby matches beer is freely served and yet it remains good-natured.
Very much depends on the pub though. VDEs (Vertical Drinking Establishments) rely on giving the customer little else to do but drink. They don't have seating or tables, which reduces the relaxed drinking that a group would have around a table; and they play loud music which reduces talking time.
That environment sounds like hell to me, but they're very popular.
The post is called "drinking games" and it doesn't talk about drinking games at all. Which is a shame because after traveling and drinking a lot in different countries I've found that drinking games were one of the most interesting thing.
For example, chinese people love to play with dices, or shouting games, hand games... french people love to play card games when drinking. Canadian people love beer pong... Which us french people find stupid, it's dirty and it's such a hassle to play.
Although I love Malcolm Gladwell, surely not one of his most interesting article.
PS: I also noted that professionally, alcohol is a huge part in Asia. Japan, China, Korea, you are supposed to get drunk with your boss, you are suppose to get drunk while concluding a deal...
In Canada, people drink alone, they drink alcohol in front of other people who don't drink alcohol, they don't wait to drink...
In France, people always drink with other people, if the other doesn't drink alcohol then one can't drink alcohol, we have to wait until everyone's poured and everyone has cheered before drinking the first sip.
Also in France it's common courtesy to bring a bottle when you come to a party, meeting and to share it with everyone. I learned the BYOB (Bring your own bottle) in Canada, which I find really anti-sociable.
PS2: There are a lot of local, regional alcoholic drinks, but beer is something I found everywhere.
In Asia, you are expected to act "drunk" when you are drinking with your colleagues/boss. You aren't expected to actually get that drunk, though you can if you want. The higher your station, the less drunk you'll want to really get because you may have to take an important call.
In Canada, people drink socially, and a smaller number drink alone (much like anywhere else). If someone doesn't want to drink at a dinner or outing, everyone else respects their choice not to drink and doesn't press them. Waiting to drink depends on the social context.
> In Asia, you are expected to act "drunk" when you are drinking with your colleagues/boss. You aren't expected to actually get that drunk, though you can if you want.
Not true in South Korea. They'll have drinking games and challenges you'd be expected to participate in.
> The higher your station, the less drunk you'll want to really get because you may have to take an important call.
Well, it's the boss who makes everyone go out to drink, so if he doesn't want to do it, it doesn't happen.
> In Asia, you are expected to act "drunk" when you are drinking with your colleagues/boss. You aren't expected to actually get that drunk, though you can if you want
Comming from a culture that doesn't accept fake-drinking I must ask: what's the point of it? Is there any cultural background explanation?
It's just part of the social ritual. You get "drunk" so that everyone can unwind because the normal social rules no longer apply. You can even call your boss a jerk and all will be forgotten tomorrow.
I'm pretty sure I've read stories about korean, japanese dying on the road after a meeting. Also stories about people throwing up at meetings, but it is seen as a good thing because they show they're trying their best.
> Which is a shame because after traveling and drinking a lot in different countries I've found that drinking games were one of the most interesting thing.
In case you were planning to visit Poland or some post-USSR country, we have no drinking games at all. We just drink, and we drink to get drunk, 'drinking games' don't make any sense for us and are generally subject of disregard so it's not even a thing worth mentioning if you are here.
The only quasi-sensible (by our standards) game I recall is 3 glasses, probably too hardcore for most nations of the world (well, it is hardcore even for us). You put 3 shots on the table - one filled with water, one with vodka, one with spirit. You have to pick two, you drink one and wash down with the other, good luck if you wash down vodka with spirit.
> Also in France it's common courtesy to bring a bottle when you come to a party, meeting and to share it with everyone
Here too. Loosely translated there is a rule "you shall not come empty-handed" aka you need a "glass ticket" to enter a party. And it's not 'courtesy', it's a big deal, even if you're broke or lost in the middle of the night in a neighborhood you don't know, you should bring whatever you can afford at the nearest 24h or gas station.
On my business trips to Paris, nobody refrained from drinking because I don't drink. I would have been mortified if they had. How strong is the "we don't drink if someone doesn't drink" culture? Is it related to social drinking as opposed to, say, having a glass of wine with dinner? I'm just trying to understand the culture and how I can expect my not drinking to impact relations there.
Fascinating article -- lots of food for thought here.
It made me wonder. One of the common symbols of the "drinking problem" that Americans had in the mid 1800s through prohibition was the saloon. It was men-only, rowdy, all the business got done there, and men would come home drunk to abuse their families.
Truly a horrible thing, of course, yet based on this article I wonder if the mixing of cultures led to a loss of common rules? Or in other words, perhaps the more culturally diverse the saloon was, the greater the problem of alcoholism in the surrounding homes?
IMHO the best part of the article is in the italian exemple: considering wine as just a kind of food or as a way to get high is a cultural thing. Usually it's both, but one of the dimensions prevails.
I can not talk about Italy, but the same seems to happens in France: we try to accomodate the plate with the wine. In such a situation, you do not drink to get buzzed, but because it tastes good with the plate.
IIRC I was served my first wine when I was 10, but that did not turn me into a wino. I still enjoy wine - with good food :-)
Definitely putting this article into my archives. Thank you for submitting it, and please don't listen to the nay-sayers who claim this isn't technical enough for HN. The mind can be a more interesting puzzle, a more imperative problem to solve than anything man made.
I think the author has also uncovered a universal truth about drug use that relates to it's original uptake, as well as their effects whilst under the influence as detailed in the article . I believe that this relates alcohol, caffeine or 'harder' drugs.
Take starting to smoke tobacco for instance, in the U.K smoking has seen a large decline within the last decade (1), this can be can be attributed to several factors including a ban on certain mediums of tobacco advertising (at cultural and social events) and an increase in government adverts that address the culture of social smoking as well as the more traditional health issues (2), it is far more 'uncool' to smoke in the UK now.
Although largely harmless, drinking caffeine to 'start your day' is a behaviour largely taught by culture. To further this point, Italian people in general have a far more prevalent culture of drinking espresso than British, with the existence of espresso bars (until recently) being a rarity.
I believe this has far wider implication that extend to the 'war on drugs' in the US. I personally can testify that growing up in a drug infested area, I was never tempted to partake in drug abuse due to family culture and my upbringing.
"He wants to tell stories rather than to analyze a phenomenon. He tells them well enough, if you can stand the style. (Blink is written like a book intended for people who do not read books.)"
I found this fascinating and a alternative view to my own held beliefs on alcohol.
This really seems to be a better way at addressing social policy - yes beyond the genetic disposition to alcoholism there is definitely a cultural molding that determines behavior.
If the expectation of behavior (say from holywood and tvland) is a major factor in the behavior of those under the influence rather than say the quantity or concentration of ethanol, maybe humanity can address this by how popular culture programs us?
Typical Gladwell article. In fact, the truth is simple: The farther from the cradle of civilization [1] you get, the worse the alcoholism. Thus, Arabs and Jews are rarely alcoholics, whereas Irish and Russians commonly are. When you get to Indigenous Americans and Australians, alcoholism is a serious problem. It's simple adaptation, no different than adaptation to smallpox.
If that were true, then the Camba should have been roaring drunks and alcoholics. And yet a major point of the article was demonstrating this NOT to be the case.
In fact, the article makes the case that it's a group's drinking CULTURE that has the biggest effect on alcoholism.
If that's true, do you think alcohol should be regulated differently for members of different racial/ethnic groups? That's a pretty controversial thing to suggest, but it seems to follow if we assume that the government should regulate alcohol at all, and that the regulation should be based on its potential to do harm.
Not race (since that is a uselessly vague concept), but there are specific genes that correlate with elevated or decreased risk of alcoholism. Perhaps identifying at-risk individuals could be used for some social good, but I’d wager any such efforts will ultimately be flawed and harmful.
Plenty of jews in this country that come from both Germany, Poland and Russia. They are not by any stretch of the imagination big drinkers and hardly drink at all.
