brought in rules which ban NGO vessels from performing more than one rescue at sea at a time
This seems like a bit of an over reach. Maybe someone can provide some context that is missing in the article
1. If a commercial vessel (container ship etc) finds a migrant boat in need of rescue and then later finds another also in need of rescue, are they supposed to just leave them?
2. How come Italy can dictate what foreign vessels (Banksys ship is registered in German as per the article) do in international waters? How can they prosecute a captain of a vessel for something they did while in international water? (that isn't piracy, or something of that nature)
>How come Italy can dictate what foreign vessels (Banksys ship is registered in German as per the article) do in international waters?
IIRC they can't have a say on what they do in international waters. They can however have a say on a German ship bringing migrants into an Italian port. It's up to the Italian authorities to accept or deny the German vessel at that point.
Unless Banksy or the German Gov. provides a shuttle transport from Italy to Germany, then that's like me going around the neighborhood rescuing stray dogs and cats and dumping them on a neighbor's yard because he's closer to where I found them. It then becomes less "me rescuing them" and more "me making it someone else's problem".
> 2. How come Italy can dictate what foreign vessels (Banksys ship is registered in German as per the article) do in international waters?
The answer is basically they can because they can.
The ship isn't picking people up and delivering them to Germany, they're picking people up and delivering them to Italy. When the ship is docked in Italy it is at the whim of the Italian authorities.
Legally speaking, they can't. It doesn't matter where the ship will be docking. Anything otherwise is a crime against humanity. International laws and EU laws are bigger than any Italian authority and Italian laws that has been ever established.
Not at all. Laws has to be compatible with universal laws, international treaties/laws such as UN Geneva Convention and for Italy also the EU laws. Along many other conditions such as arbitrariness.
> Not at all. Laws has to be compatible with universal laws, international treaties/laws such as UN Geneva Convention and for Italy also the EU laws. Along many other conditions such as arbitrariness.
No they don't. What authority enforces that?
If not other country or international body has the willingness and capability to go to war with Italy in order to enforce its opinions, and if no country is willing to shun Italy over this or Italy is fine with the shunning, then Italy can have whatever laws it likes.
They do. I do not have to convince you that 2+2=4. If you have read recent European Human Rights Court decisions, you can clearly see what kind of domestic laws is in violation of law. (Yes, I mean some domestic laws are in violation of laws)
> They do. I do not have to convince you that 2+2=4.
Yeah, because you're trying to convince me that 2+2=5.
> If you have read recent European Human Rights Court decisions, you can clearly see what kind of domestic laws is in violation of law. (Yes, I mean some domestic laws are in violation of laws)
And what's that court going to do to make Italy comply?
For instance: I can claim until I'm blue in the face that everyone has to comply with some "universal law" that I declare, and I can issue statements to that effect, but in reality that's totally meaningless because I lack the power to make others follow me. There are a lot of international bodies that makes similar claims, and similarly lack the power. Maybe those bodies persuaded you, but that doesn't matter to the unpersuaded.
International relations is literally anarchy. Sometimes there's cooperation that looks like law, and rhetoric that that claims the moral force of law, but the reality is anarchy -- which is why Putin was able to invade Ukraine and North Korea's government has remained in place for 70 years, doing things liberals find to be horrific and "illegal" the whole time.
I'm sad you feel that way, but I guess I won't change your mind with any arguments I might make.
For myself, I see myself primarily as a human, not a white human, or a male human, or an English human, although they all contribute to my identity. I just don't see those things as of primary importance, and are merely accidents.
Seems like there's an opportunity for NGO boats to distribute the survivors amongst themselves while in international waters. No way for the Italians to know who rescued who.
Or, you know, have some humanity and let them come ashore anyway.
>Or, you know, have some humanity and let them come ashore anyway.
But practical humanity needs to be backed up by resources to provide to the new arrivals, not just thoughts and prayers: housing, energy, schooling, medical care, jobs, etc. Those aren't in excess supply right now. Many EU countries, like Italy, have seen a Real GDP per capita stagnation since 2008. Since covid and the war, most Europeans have taken a real hit on their wallets and the social services.
If you're stretched thin, with not enough to go around for the locals, they might not accept your humanitarian efort towards outsiders as being in their best interest, and vote for some rightwing muppet with a funny moustache in your place. Not the scenario we need right now.
No one is seriously proposing that migrants be allowed to drown. The real question is whether they should be brought ashore in Italy, or in some other country.
> This seems like a bit of an over reach. Maybe someone can provide some context that is missing in the article
NGOs are being rate limited but the coast guard is not. This is to prevent the NGOs to overload with comms and requests the coast guard, in the frequent cases in which they are already working on a rescue.
It's a little too easy rhetoric to point out that the current government is right-wing. This is a rule in place to prevent an unorderly and (even more) dangerous rescue.
> "The order was issued as a result of the findings made by IMRCC Rome (rescue coordinating authority) under Decree Law 1/2023, converted into Law 15/2023 and bearing 'urgent provisions on transit and stopover in territorial waters of non-governmental vessels engaged in rescue operations at sea.' The unit, specifically, after carrying out the first rescue operation in Libyan waters, contravened the imparted disposition to reach the port of Trapani, directing instead on 3 other units of migrants on which, moreover, under the coordination of IMRCC Rome, were already directing in rescue the means of the Italian Coast Guard."
> "The dispositions given to the NGO ship, given its small size, were also aimed at preventing it from taking on board such a number of people as to jeopardize both its own safety and that of the migrant boats to which it would provide rescue. The failure to comply with the provisions, moreover, slowed down the achievement of a port of disembarkation for the migrants rescued in the first intervention, initially identified in that of Trapani by the Ministry of the Interior, thus inducing the decision to redesign the arrival of the NGO, for reasons of safety and urgency, in the port of Lampedusa, already, moreover, solicited by the numerous arrivals of migrants in recent days."
> "To such behavior, which in itself already complicated the delicate work of coordinating relief," it goes on to read, "were added the continuous calls from the NGO air assets that overloaded the communication systems of the national relief coordination center, overlapping and duplicating the signals of the already present state air assets. Similarly, the incident cited by NGO Ocean Viking and referring to alleged Libyan coast guard gunfire that occurred in the SAR area falling under the responsibility of another national coordination center, was not being reported to the flag country as would be required by navigation safety regulations, but rather to the Italian coordination center on a continuous basis, again ending up overloading the IMRCC at particularly intensive times of ongoing relief efforts. Nevertheless, in 48 hours more than 3,300 people aboard 58 boats were rescued under the coordination of the Italian Coast Guard."
If you want to translate by yourself:
> “Il provvedimento è stato emesso a seguito degli accertamenti effettuati da IMRCC Roma (autorità coordinatrice dei soccorsi) in base al DL 1/2023, convertito nella legge 15/2023 e recante ‘disposizioni urgenti in materia di transito e sosta nelle acque territoriali delle navi non governative impegnate nelle operazioni di soccorso in mare’. L’unità, nello specifico, dopo aver effettuato il primo intervento di soccorso in acque libiche, contravveniva all’impartita disposizione di raggiungere il porto di Trapani, dirigendo invece su altre 3 unità di migranti sulle quali, peraltro, sotto il coordinamento di IMRCC Roma, stavano già dirigendo in soccorso i mezzi della Guardia Costiera italiana“.
> “Le disposizioni impartite alla nave Ong, valutate le sue piccole dimensioni, erano altresì tese a evitare che la stessa prendesse a bordo un numero di persone tale da pregiudicare sia la sua sicurezza che quella delle imbarcazioni di migranti a cui avrebbe prestato soccorso. La non osservanza delle disposizioni, inoltre, ha rallentato il raggiungimento di un porto di sbarco per i migranti salvati nel primo intervento, inizialmente individuato in quello di Trapani dal Ministero dell’Interno, inducendo così a ridisegnare la decisione in modo da far convergere l’arrivo della Ong, per motivi di sicurezza e di urgenza, nel porto di Lampedusa, già peraltro sollecitato dai numerosi arrivi di migranti di questi ultimi giorni“.
> “A tale comportamento che già di per sé complicava il delicato lavoro di coordinamento dei soccorsi – si legge ancora – si sommavano le continue chiamate dei mezzi aerei ONG che hanno sovraccaricato i sistemi di comunicazione del centro nazionale di coordinamento dei soccorsi, sovrapponendosi e duplicando le segnalazioni dei già presenti assetti aerei dello Stato. Allo stesso modo, l’episodio citato da ONG Ocean Viking e riferito ai presunti spari della guardia costiera libica avvenuto in area SAR ricadente nella responsabilità di un altro centro di coordinamento nazionale, non veniva riportato al Paese di bandiera come sarebbe previsto dalle norme sulla sicurezza della navigazione, bensì al centro di coordinamento italiano, in modo continuativo, finendo anche questo col sovraccaricare l’IMRCC in momenti particolarmente intensivi di soccorsi in atto. Ciononostante, in 48 ore sono state soccorse, sotto il coordinamento della Guardia Costiera Italiana, oltre 3300 persone a bordo di 58 imbarcazioni”.
The Italian coast guard accused the ship of “complicating a delicate rescue coordination operation” and putting more pressure on the migrant reception centre in Lampedusa.
The first part is sort of plausible. Having a bunch of cowboys running around can be a big headache for coordination, but the second part? Um, yeah, I guess live migrants do put more pressure on the reception centre than dead ones.
Every dead migrant reduces pressure on the reception centre by some number greater than one, by discouraging other people from trying the same journey.
But if we want to be more charitable, the comment could also be about how Italy tries to find ways to rescue people and dump them on the African side of the Mediterranean instead of in Italy, while the Banksy ship doesn't care about that effort.
no man borders aren't real, you can't see them from space, man, national sovereignty is an antiquated concept man, everyone should just let everyone into their borders who wants in, in as large of quantities as possible, having a high-trust society is an outdated ideal, man, who even wants that anymore? national cohesion, prioritizing the welfare of existing citizens over everyone else—can you even imagine such barbarism? man
I hope that this can get cleared up and the ship can get back out to sea and back to work.
I'd been noticing for a while reading Wikipedia's current events that seemingly every week there is at least one case of "boat carrying migrants sinks killing dozens of people". Glancing back, there were 29 reported drowned on the 26th, 5 the 23rd, 14 on the 9th, and 2 on the first. All of these in the Mediterranean. This is ugly.
I'd expect it's some combination of "can sharpie a rock and immediately sell it for a hundred thousand dollars" and rich patrons who are willing to fund things like this to say they did a project with Banksy.
Plus, it looks like a relatively humble boat, compared to the numerous superyachs you see a few hours sailing away in Cannes / Nice / St Tropez for instance
“Yes, neofascists were ‘criminalized’ because they were bombing trains,” said
David Broder. The new government, he added, “seems to be under the strange
impression that neofascism was ‘criminalized’ by others rather than ‘criminal’
when its members planned terrorist attacks and coups.”
it means that their policies, ideology, beliefs, etc. fall into a predictable part the established political spectrum. this isn't some sort of "gotcha" or even attempt at political disagreement, it's established fact
Serious question, Do you not know of the the terms left and right wing politics? Have you not previously heard of far-right, or do you feel it does not apply to this party?
Sorry, that's somebody's else problem. NGOs have high moral ground, this means that they are automatically right. Can't expect them to solve practical things.
I know you already know this isn't true, but for everyone else, look up coverage of Greek, French, Spanish, or Brazilian politics if you'd like to see some leaders described as far-left.
I guess I was wrong about Brazil, it seems like Lula's politics can't really accurately be described as far-left based on his leadership during his first presidency.
Notice in all the articles you linked to none of the leaders are referred to as "far left leader" but in one of the articles (last one) "far right leader" is used. Same with the article it linked to with Bolsonaro and Lulu.
Sometimes NYT and other mainstream news will say leader of far-left party, but very very rarely will they say the leader is far left. It seems they use "far right leader" more than 10x they use "far left leader"
Not sure why you are concluding Lula's politics can't be accurately described as far-left, just because NYT won't print that. Not saying its correct or not but NYT isn't 'gospel'
(As yes I do realize the original article doesn't use specifically use "far-right leader" Meloni. The point is many reporters love to tag people they don't like as far right)
Because fascist is too loaded? Nationalist doesn't really cover the ideals this party represents.
I wonder if this party would agree with 'far-right' as a descriptor? Some political movements here in the UK are (sadly) happy to be called far-right and trade on it.
I think Giorgia Meloni isn't that opposed to the term Fascism, as long as it's clear that she doesn't share Mussolini's ideas on race.
> Some political movements here in the UK are (sadly) happy to be called far-right and trade on it.
Which is good, we should encourage honest labeling of political parties. The bad thing isn't that these parties are far-right or that they call themselves far-right, but that people vote for far-right parties (I would extend the same to far-left, in a European context). That problem won't go away by calling them something else though.
1. If a commercial vessel (container ship etc) finds a migrant boat in need of rescue and then later finds another also in need of rescue, are they supposed to just leave them?
2. How come Italy can dictate what foreign vessels (Banksys ship is registered in German as per the article) do in international waters? How can they prosecute a captain of a vessel for something they did while in international water? (that isn't piracy, or something of that nature)