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Now Available: Ivory for Mastodon by Tapbots (apps.apple.com)
171 points by CameronBanga on Jan 24, 2023 | hide | past | favorite | 98 comments



I'll admit, I was mostly excited about Ivory so I could have a paired set of mac and iphone apps that would keep track of where I've read to in my timeline. That was always the killer feature for me of Tweetbot. Unfortunately, it looks like the mac app is not yet out.

I subscribed anyway, though, since it's a nice iphone app and hopefully I can help support the development of the mac app.


If you have an M1, you can probably run the iOS app there while you wait, though that's rarely exactly an amazing experience.


Check out Ice Cubes, another fantastic (and free!) app that supports Mac, iOS, and iPadOS today.


> Check out Ice Cubes, another fantastic (and free!) app that supports Mac, iOS, and iPadOS today.

FYI, Ice Cubes is an iOS app. It does run on macOS by virtue of macOS supporting iOS apps, but its App Store listing notes that it's "Not verified for macOS".


To OP's point, Ice Cubes doesn't seem to remember my place in the timeline. When I open the app, it just opens to the newest message.


+1. I like Ice Cubes but I can't seem to find a way to load new posts without jumping to the top of the timeline.


For the curious:

There’s an API built into Mastodon to save timeline location on your account.

Ivory is planning to support it, doesn’t currently, however it does save timeline location to iCloud, readable by Ivory on your other devices.

No idea if Ice Cubes is planning to implement the native API, or if it’s currently trying to and running into issues.


Instant subscribe. I loved the interface for Tweetbot before Musk rudely killed it. Using Ivory feels like coming home. It makes me want to use Mastodon even more.


Mastodon is really, really promising. But there needs to be a go-to server to point everyone to. Kind of like with flatpak -> flathub, git -> github. Of course there's options, but there should be an unofficial default. It feels like the early days of email where everyone was at odd domains.


Having people not all be on the same server (or same small set of large servers) is kind of the point, though.

Having everyone on GMail is not a good thing.


I agree but think both are true at the same time.

The reality, from what I’ve gleaned, is that the instance you’re on matters (for many), but you can’t come to appreciate that and what you want in an instance without first being on some instance and active on Mastodon/fediverse.

So I think the solution is that there is essentially a new-to-mastodon instance or domain (of multiple servers that all work the same). It’s for people feeling out mastodon and exploring. And there can even be a time limit for accounts there to prevent accounts sitting around forever.

That way there’d be one domain to point everyone to but the uniqueness of instances and the diversity of the fediverse can be maintained.

Main thing that needs to be cleaned up though is moving instance. It’s not hard now, but this idea would be more attractive if it was one-button-easy.

More generally, the portability of accounts across the fediverse is something I really think should be more of a thing.


Yeah, it would be cool to have a time-limited server like that! In practice I think it would be exhausting to admin, though, since you'd have a large population of newcomers and a very small population of experienced users to teach them the tools and culture.

My advice has been to just pick an instance and try it out, and then migrate to a different one after a month if they see one that looks like a better fit.


http://mastodon.social/invite/FqKugRkc if you want to join the biggest server.


For the average user does it even matter what server/instance you join? From what I can tell, once you sign up you can search for, follow, find, post, re-post etc. anything from anyone regardless of which server you sign up with.


Yes, browsing and discovery is strongly influenced by what instance you choose. To understand what parts of the experience are affected, consider the extreme case of a single-user instance.


Eh, I'm not sure about that, really. If you're already on Twitter, you can follow the people who've migrated over with movetodon or similar, and discover people that way. How often do you browse the Twitter global timeline, after all? (Is that even possible anymore?) On Twitter, and on Mastodon, you largely discover people based on what the people you follow do.


> How often do you browse the Twitter global timeline, after all?

This is the wrong question to ask. Last I used Twitter it bombarded me with unsolicited, unrelated content to an inescapable degree. On Mastodon, which so enthusiastically compensates for Twitter’s aggression that no new content is surfaced without an explicit request or first-degree vouch, I take a peek at instances' local timelines almost daily.

Beyond the timeline, consider the behavior of hashtags. On a single-user instance hashtags are useless for discovery.


No, not if content is coming from a blocked/blacklisted server -- which is all up to each server's mods --- and also if you want to move, your content does not go with you. Mastodon isn't perfect or even 'it'.


It‘s build right into the software to move your account and take all content and even followers with you: https://docs.joinmastodon.org/user/moving/


Where do you import your exported content?


But all the odd domains didn’t matter because the email got sent to anyone one of them if you got the address correct. The same is true for Mastodon instances.


Mastodon.social?


I think I have checked that site ~1 month ago. At that time, they did not allow new accounts. Just checked now again and can not create new accounts. So..


I think it works better to be on a well-run regional server if one exists, so that the Local feed actually mostly means "local". For folks in the SF Bay Area I recommend sfba.social .


"The developer does not collect any data from this app."

very good.


I was never online when the TestFlight invites were shared, but am very happy to try the app now!

Like it a lot so far. Familiar with the interface as I come from Tweetbot. I am glad to be able to support the developers who've unfortunately have to retire their bird app.

If you're still looking to follow some folks on Mastodon, you can find me at @hankruiger@mastodon.nl.


Steep price for something that is not really any better than the official Mastodon app. I expected more functionality with how many TestFlight people were claiming that this fixes Mastodon's UX. It feels like just a skin on top of what you already had available for free.


> Steep price for something that is not really any better than the official Mastodon app

For me the unified timeline is the key feature when switching between devices


The two problems I have with the unified timeline is that there's no macOS app to sync the timeline position to, and there's anyways so few toots on Mastodon that it's almost pointless to even have it.



Downloaded but could not log in because I have cookies disabled on iPhone. Would be nice to have a cookieless login option (unclear if it is possible, API key?).


The cookie is merely needed by the web interface -- Ivory gets passed an API key. You can enable cookies temporarily, log in, and then clear them just fine.


How do other oauth logins work on your phone?


Fine. This one may be third party? Haven't debugged yet.

// Update: Works if allow cross site tracking and turn off hide from trackers. Re-enable after getting token.


> Subscribing to either the Yearly or Monthly option will give you access to all of Ivory’s features. If you cancel within the 7-day trial period, you will not be charged by Apple. If you cancel anytime after that you will be able to continue using Ivory until your subscription expires.

> If you choose not to subscribe, Ivory will still work but will function in a read-only mode where you won’t be able to Post, Follow, Fave, etc.

Interesting.


This is exactly how Tweetbot worked in later years, iirc.


I always used the web UI for Twitter or the official app (rarely)


Yeah, I hoped I could try it out. I went through about 10 minutes of setup before I got to pricing. As a newbie to Mastadon, I have no idea if I want in. I’m also interested in contributing as much of just lurking. I’m not ready for another subscription before I know but I understand they need to make money on this.


That’s how every App Store subscription works.


It's interesting that you have to pay to reply to people instead of just paying to use the app at all.


I appreciate the semi-functional trial so I can get a sense of the look and feel before paying.


Yeah, it's not something I've seen before, but others say they've done it with their Twitter app too.


I wish they had a one-time purchase option, even if it’s only for one or a set number of major versions. Oh well.


If anyone is jumping onto Mastodon (or taking a deeper dive) today with the app's release, posting my handle here if anyone wants to follow. Will follow back here today and presume all are HNers. :)

CameronBanga@mastodon.social for me! Feel free to reply your handle as well!


Two questions for those willing to pay $1.99/month for the client:

1) do you also contribute for the development of the server software? If yes, how much?

2) is there any type of feature/functionality that would you be willing to pay to have at your instance?


I am thinking about subscribing once I see how well it performs, I have not been super enthused about the existing Mastodon apps.

To answer your questions:

1) I don't support Mastodon directly, but I do support the server I am using monthly.

2) Personally I am a bit worried about instances gaining unique features and I hope we don't see too much deviation on that front.


Follow-up questions, if I may:

> I have not been super enthused about the existing Mastodon apps.

Have you considered donating to the existing/contributing to the development of the existing open source clients?

> I do support the server I am using monthly.

If I may ask: how much? And what if I told you there is a commercial instance where accounts are priced at $10/year that for all intents and purposes is managed to your satisfaction, would you consider it?

> instances gaining unique features

I am not thinking of protocol level differences, but some type of improvement that could help people be more at ease when migrating to AP servers. E.g; a better search system, or a server level bridge that can let you (or other users of the same instance) follow people on twitter/instagram/youtube "transparently"


Regarding the first, I have been considering it but I just have not yet. My use of Mastodon is still somewhat low so I kinda see it as... there is a monthly infrastructure cost associated with running servers but less so for the apps. So the last thing I want to see is a server shut down and to need to scramble.

I have been doing $8 a month right now, it doesn't get me any benefits on the server and it is through Patreon. I have been wondering if that is too much but I can afford it and I know this can be expensive to run.

Search system I am not really sure about how I would feel, I would not want to feel like I need to switch instances. Just like I wouldn't want certain instances to have different media support. Sill not fully sure how I feel about that really.

Edit: Regarding the commercial instance option. I don't really see the point? Since all (most) of the instances are connected there isn't any value in an exclusive club... and tbh I am not really sure the other servers would not just block it.

My server seems to be moderated just fine, I think its better that those that can support while most can use it for free.


> Regarding the commercial instance option. I don't really see the point?

Because of "I have been wondering if that is too much but I can afford it and I know this can be expensive to run."

Yes, $8/month is not a lot in the grand scheme of things. But I'm yet to see any more efficient and fair method for price discovery than having different commercial instances trying to acquire users through a straightforward business model where accounts are paid. I wrote a bit about that on https://raphael.lullis.net/community-is-not-enough/.

I am reasonably sure that I can have a profitable business on communick if I have enough people paying me ~$0.50/month, as long as all of the users pay me at least that much. More importantly, I am absolutely sure that our society and level of civil discourse would be better if we got rid of "ad-funded/freemium/donation-based" services, and instead we let market forces act and if we could vote with our wallets.

The way I see it, you shouldn't be paying $8/month to make up for the 15 freeloaders and your server admins shouldn't be dependent on your generosity to be able to continue providing the service. Everyone, without exception, should be paying just enough for the admins to feel like it's a worthy endeavor and willing to compete for your patronage and to improve their service. And because the service is built on free-software and has no strong lock-in, any improvement would quickly be shared and spread throughout all services.


1) 5eur/month to my instance.

2) No, beyond reliability, which it manages well enough right now.


Would you be interested in a professionally managed instance where 5€/month lets you bring 10 people? Assume that reliability/moderation/support is at the same level of your existing instance.


No; I'm pretty happy with my current instance.

There likely is some sort of market for commercial instances, but it's not me.


There is a larger point that I am trying to make here, but I haven't found a way to convey it as an efficient marketing message: these 5€/month can do a lot more than leaving you "pretty happy with your current instance".

The same 5€/month that you are spending on the instance you are on could be helping you and 9 other people. Network effects matter. If you can bring 9 other people, you'd accelerating the rate of adoption of social networks based on open platforms. The people you will be bringing will have someone that can help them with the initial questions. They will be less likely to give up on it because they already have some kind of support network. If they really like what they find and if they find themselves willing to support it and get their own contract, they will find "it's $10/year for a single account or $5/month for 10-account contracts" more affordable/more straightforward than "pay whatever you want, but the social pressure is to pay 5€/month just for yourself".

I totally understand that if you already on an instance that you are happy, you already have some form of emotional attachment to it. But perhaps consider that your 5€/month could have an even bigger if employed on a commercial instance.


> The same 5€/month that you are spending on the instance you are on could be helping you and 9 other people.

It's doing that on the instance I'm on; the instance has 20k users and about 800 contributors.


Well, yes, but you have no actual connection with these other people. This means that if you stop paying, all the non-paying users are still going to be freeloaders, they are just going to be relying on one less person sharing the burden.

It also means that non-paying users don't have any social capital at stake. They can come, create issues for the moderators and at worst they would get banned. Someone that comes directly through your invitation is less likely to cause any type of issue and if they do it also gives more information for moderators about the best course of action.

It also means that if the server gets an influx of new users and double in size, you would either and they would have to rely either on a corresponding increase in contributors on a bigger donation from the existing ones. My commercial instance can only grow in proportion to the number of people that have already committed to pay. This makes it easier to plan and manage its growth.


So far I don't feel like I get enough value from Mastodon but once I do, I will definitely subscribe. I wish there was a Pro version (without fancy features) like something Apollo for Reddit has.


Doesn't seem to work with pleroma yet (elixir implementation)


I'm guessing they've got something like Go's `DisallowUnknownFields()` turned on and the Pleroma extension block is causing an error.

FWIW GotoSocial seems to work (although Ivory is showing that timeline under the wrong user for some reason - all the GtS timeline posts are shown as the user I logged into the Akkoma instance with.)

In summary, if you're not using a Mastodon instance, probably give it a month or two.

EDIT: Having said that, it's showing every timeline item on the GtS instance as the same one - I suspect they might be using integers for IDs (which is what Mastodon - but no-one else - does) and coincidentally this timeline has IDs that all start with `01`. Which would also explain the Akkoma problem since all those IDs are currently starting with `AR` and thus unparseable as integers.


That's a deal-breaker for me, sadly, but at least it means that "Mastodon" actually means "Mastodon" in this case.


That seems to be deliberate, and I hate it. There are very few reasons any client implementing MastoAPI shouldn't also support Akkoma/Pleroma.

None of the iOS Mastodon apps (except one that is proprietary and seemingly not published on the german appstore) properly support Akkoma notifications, but a somewhat broken Ivory would still be better than a halfway broken Metatext.


> There are very few reasons any client implementing MastoAPI shouldn't also support Akkoma/Pleroma.

Depends how you implement it. e.g. If you use `int64` for your IDs, Akkoma and GotoSocial won't work. Or if you send your POST parameters in the URL, Akkoma won't work. There's other subtle stuff too - toot codes unset optional fields as `null` in the JSON it sends (rather than leaving them out) which breaks both Akkoma and GotoSocial.

In summary, someone needs to write a decent MastoAPI spec and get everyone to agree on that rather than this ad-hoc balkanisation.


The API (https://docs.joinmastodon.org/entities/Status/#id) explains that IDs are not numbers:

    Description: ID of the status in the database.
    Type: String (cast from an integer but not guaranteed to be a number)
    Version history:
0.1.0 - added

In other words, even the Mastodon API docs claim the ID isn't guaranteed not to be a string.

I'm sure there are undocumented differences, but if you base your data model on the spec then there's no reason to even assume you can just use a number.


That was added after the developers of Toot! (iOS app) claimed Pleroma was at fault for it not working with their app because they implemented MastoAPI wrong.

Toot! seems to work with Akkoma/Pleroma now, but notifications are still somewhat lossy.


What would be the incentive to maintain a Mastodon server? Monetary or else? Is it feasible in scale?


For the same reasons someone would maintain a forum or some other sort of what we call today "social networking service;" to allow people to come together and communicate, sometimes focused around a certain topic.

Few people will make a living from running a fediverse server but if you have enough of a dedicated audience, you can probably at least fundraise enough to help cover costs.


Most of them are pretty small, and often take donations. Think community forums back in the day.


[flagged]


Human tooth are also Ivory


[flagged]


> But we're supposed to buy proprietary client software?

And that's where your disconnect comes in. You might value any proprietary products worthless, but clearly much more people don't see it that way. We have proprietary RSS readers and they get many users, there are many users of Apple products even when open-source OSes and desktops are available.

If this is a must-have, then your comments make sense. Until then, I think that let the users decide if they want it. You apparently don't, but are other people feeling the same way?


It's fine to prefer people give away things, especially in OSS communities - I'd prefer free stuff too, but I don't feel like it's unreasonable to try to charge for it any more than it's unreasonable to ask for donation or have a premium support package for OSS projects.

Mastodon itself isn't offering a paid option, this is a third party who's promising a more well-featured and supported application than any of the current free/OSS ones. If someone wants to copy those features into an OSS client, they're welcome to, but they haven't yet.


From what I can tell the Fediverse/Mastondon community are completely welcoming to proprietory clients. The founder of Mastondon even boosted the announcement.

Its generally best to let the community speak on these sorts of issues, they can be quite opinionated (see "Quote Toots", and "Scraping")


If you find the feature set worthwhile, then yes. For people who need this type of app in their work it can save tons of time and the price doesn't seem predatory either.

Or use a different app. Here is a free and Open source one called Ice Cubes. https://apps.apple.com/us/app/ice-cubes-for-mastodon/id64449...


You have the freedom to buy software and use it with the rest of the network. As much as I like open source, many proprietary alternatives have a look and feel that's much better than the volunteer designed stuff.

This client was made by the company that makes Tweetbot, whose API keys have been retracted recently in one of Twitter's latest changes. They already had a paying audience despite the free nature of Twitter. It only makes sense that they try to get their business going again by targeting a Twitter alternative. Most of the work has already been done, after all.

Mastodon runs on servers. This isn't replacing Mastodon at all. One of the core strengths of the fediverse is the ability to get the client of your preference, self-made, open source, or paid.


What's wrong with wanting to get paid for a product you develop?


Well, mostly because it's incompatible with the idea of free software:

https://www.gnu.org/philosophy/free-sw.en.html

Proprietary software like this violates all four of the essential freedoms.

Mastodon, for example, is AGPL; it's as much an ideology as it is a license, otherwise CC-0 or MIT would be fine. It is surprising that people take issue with software in this space that doesn't align with the ideology of the people contributing to the space?


Until grocery stores accept GitHub stars and good vibes most people will need to be paid to build software.


Many (not all) free software ecosystems welcome non-free participants, as long as these honor certain values.

I do think the app store labeling “Free. Offers in-app purchases” is dishonest. It should read, “Demoware. Requires in-app subscription.”


Well, you're not _supposed to_, but _you can if you want_.

Personally, I used the Testflight version for the last month or so, and am happy to pay for this. YMMV.


Tweetbot was a great product I was happy to give money too. I'll probably feel the same way about Ivory.


This was an instant buy for me for that reason. Tapbots has a long and well-earned reputation for being a great company. I'm so happy that they're bringing their expertise to Mastodon, and think it lends credibility to the whole fediverse. "Oh, there's even an official Tapbots client? Maybe I should get around to checking it out."


I'd rather pay someone to maintain the software I choose to rely on.


Bonus points for calling it Ivory - a luxury item which still results in the poaching and killing of these wonderful creatures today.


It's still ivory if it's on a living elephant. Attributing the word ivory to poaching seems like attributing gold to piracy to me.


The dentine on the inside of a tusk is what is carved out and called Ivory. The value of Ivory was because it could be carved easily and looked nice, and increasingly because of its rarity. The Ivory inside a tusk has no more value than the dentine inside your teeth - that is, it is a mundane part of the body. Why would someone call their product dentine? Is it a mundane, hidden part of a larger organism? Or is it because, once carved out, Ivory is rare and expensive? Please try to find a reason that it makes sense of an application to be called Ivory that is not because it still has connotations of value.

The Ivory trade is disgusting. Anything that continues to promote Ivory as a positive is disgusting.

Update: I think the two folks replying are making my point for me. If your product is a sugar-free gum that is good for teeth, then for sure call it Dentyne.


>Why would someone call their product dentine?

Well, they couldn't trademark that, so they'd call it this instead:

https://www.dentyne.com/



Mastodons are being poached and killed today?


> poaching and killing of these wonderful creatures today.

Where can I find a mastodon?


EDIT: oops, nvm


I'd say calling it Ivory is tone deaf, since Ivory comes from the poaching and killing of these wonderful creatures and continues to this day. Hm. People trying to make money off free things...

Ivory is literally illegal to own.


Edit: At least in the US, elephant ivory is NOT illegal to own, or even sell domestically, as long as it was either aquired legally or predates the ban, so your entire premise is incorrect, see https://www.fws.gov/guidance/sites/guidance/files/documents/...

Other sources from long extinct sources like as a sibling noted, mammoths, are not. It’s not even THAT expensive. For instance, a guitar nut in mammoth ivory is about $30 vs $5 for “bone” or $10 for synthetic/graphite


I didn't know mammoth ivory was becoming more common (due to thawing permafrost). There are still some ethical considerations at play, it seems--this article is decent overview: https://www.nhm.ac.uk/discover/why-woolly-mammoth-ivory-coul...


Isn't chinese traditional "medicine" such a wonderful blend of exploitation and woo?


Most people aren't triggered by words alone, despite what the online community may have one think. And thank God for that.


Nobody said anything about being triggered.


Eh, it's a pretty common term in the marketing of household products, like paint, bedding, and that ubiquitous soap brand.


Mastodons in particular are extinct. Although your comment is true regarding other sources of ivory.


Maybe the elephants are still alive and in possession of the ivory in question?


A live elephant still has ivory.




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