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UT-Austin blocks access to TikTok on campus Wi-Fi networks (texastribune.org)
203 points by heliophobicdude on Jan 17, 2023 | hide | past | favorite | 238 comments



> In a statement, a representative from TikTok said they are disappointed by the news.

> "We're disappointed that so many states are jumping on the political bandwagon to enact policies that will do nothing to advance cybersecurity in their states and are based on unfounded falsehoods about TikTok," spokesperson Jamal Brown wrote.

Regardless of you stance on Texas and Texans and politics, the above is a pretty funny statement to make. We have to protect the integrity of short video apps that are built for advertisers to push products and services through ads and influencers.


That's pretty easy to do; to characterize nationalist censorship in terms of trivialities. I could literally use being "built for advertisers to push products and services through ads and influencers" to ban television, newspapers, and every social network.


Why isn't UT Austin allowed to block something on the grounds of cyber security?

Why does it have to be nationalist censorship?


But like... what cybersecurity threat is there to using TikTok while on UT wifi?

The concerns with TikTok are always around data collection and propaganda, not it pwning other stuff on the same network with malicious network traffic?


I'm no security professional, but I am familiar with the ultra crap security standards of many institutions. It's really just removing a drop from the ocean of potential risks, but doesn't seem that outlandish given the nature of TikTok and where it comes from.


But like, what risk? I'm serious. TikTok poses no risk to UT's networks.


Well, sure, I think you're right: if the Chinese state wants access to UT-Austin's networks, they definitely have that already, and cutting this out doesn't help anything.

I suppose they're just going along with their new law in a way that buys some political points.

Personally, I'd love it if we banned the damn thing everywhere, but only because I hate the mindless content :)


There is no such potential risks. It is all about politics and propaganda.


"where it comes from" makes it sound like Xi Jinping commandeered an app where teenagers dance as a trojan horse to befall capitalism...

Your fridge was maybe made there too, are you scared a secret radio chip could activate to render your food communist ?


My fridge doesn't send recordings back to a server in China. Nor was it produced there.


My fridge doesn't curate the thoughts and ideas tens of millions of American youth are exposed to daily


It's a nationalist ban.

Whether it's a positive influence on _anything_ is questionable.

But it's not something happening outside politics


Especially given that TikTok will work fine on devices that are connected to the cell network and not wifi. I can't tell what is being protected, exactly.


This is like saying, if students can assault students outside of UT Austin - I don't know why we should ban students assaulting each other inside of UT Austin.

If you believe you're doing the right thing in some cases - you don't give up because you can't do the right thing in all cases.

UT Austin can be in the wrong. I'm just saying - simply because UT Austin banned TikTok doesn't mean they're doing it for censorship reasons. There could be other reasons...


I had assumed they meant the sort of almost public WiFi that any student has access to, which should be cordoned off from anything sensitive.


Coincidentally, in 2005, the same university blocked all emails from a dating site (LonghornSingles) on grounds of spam.

The site filed a lawsuit against the block saying they couldn’t block the site entirely since it complied with CAN SPAM.

A slashdotter compared the argument to “I have a driver’s license and car insurance, therefore I have the right to park on your lawn”.

https://slashdot.org/story/59677


> ban ________ television, newspapers, and every social network…

^ “advertiser supported”.

For the sake of argument, imagine if advertiser supported content was in fact banned in certain places. Don’t you think that non-advertiser supported models would quickly fill the gap?


People have been lamenting the decline of local news due to craigslist replacing classifieds for a long time.


Yes, in the ad tech industry we called those models "native advertising".


Football's very rules seem to be designed for ad breaks.


> We have to protect the integrity of short video apps that are built for advertisers to push products and services through ads and influencers.

That's a strawman argument, they didn't say any of that


Obviously someone should've just hosted right-wing talking heads on TikTok so that UT-Austin could be sued under Texas' own anti-censorship law:

https://arstechnica.com/tech-policy/2021/09/texas-bans-onlin...


They're already there. You just don't know it because the algo creates a textbook filter bubble to keep you happy.

This is one of TikTok's greatest strengths as an entertainment platform (compare to Youtube or whatever). People never see shit they'd be Outraged(TM) at keeping their user experience generally positive, or if not generally positive at least basically never negative.


I’m sure there are plenty of right-wing influencers on TikTok. It’s a service that locks you tightly into an algorithmic bubble once it has an idea of what kind of content turns you on. Alt-right TikTok in Texas must be “interesting.”


> ...should've just hosted right-wing talking heads on TikTok...

That's already a thing... https://mashable.com/article/tiktok-recommendations-far-righ...


Somewhere a TikTok lawyer is writing a frantic email.


> We have to protect the integrity of short video apps that are built for advertisers to push products and services through ads and influencers.

So, you're in favor of banning YouTube and most forms of television?


Yes, actually. Ad-support has a demonstrably negative affect on the media it is supporting & distorts the incentives of the platform it is hosted on.


>"We're disappointed that so many states are jumping on the political bandwagon to enact policies that will do nothing to advance cybersecurity in their states and are based on unfounded falsehoods about TikTok," spokesperson Jamal Brown wrote. "We're especially sorry to see the unintended consequences of these rushed policies beginning to impact universities' ability to share information, recruit students, and build communities around athletic teams, student groups, campus publications, and more."

Jamal Brown has quite the resume. Revolving door and all of that.

https://twitter.com/JTOBrown


He's a lobbyist by any other definition of the word. "Spokesman" is kind of a cop-out to deliberately undersell why he's working with TikTok/Bytedance.


Quite incredible he can go from DoD spokesperson to working at TikTok. I guess there's no law against it, but incredible personal choice.


Everyone has a price, and I assume Bytedance knows how valuable having a former DoD spokesman as their PR guy is - especially in this new environment of geopolitical realism. Whatever that price was, I think it's safe to assume it was met.


In the same vein, Michael Flynn went from being a US Army lieutenant general to a foreign agent lobbying for governments like Turkey.


I think there was a law against that.


A job's a job. A DOD spokesperson isn't receiving any confidential information. Their job is political, just as it would be at Facebook, if they chose to work there.


Makes me wonder how and why he got the job

https://www.usatoday.com/story/tech/2020/06/02/tiktok-apolog...


Seems pretty cut and dry reasoning. He has an impressive resume.


I don't care about this kind of stuff as much as a lot of people do. Hopefully they also start blocking China from buying up USA farmland and housing.


Governor Abbott is supporting that bill at the moment

https://www.dailywire.com/news/bill-banning-texas-land-purch...

Yet, Aramco (Saudi Arabia) purchased the largest oil refinery in the US under his watch. https://money.cnn.com/2017/05/01/investing/saudi-arabia-buys...


It’s a not a contradiction.

Oil infrastructure does not do the same thing that land/housing does.

The USA does not have the same relationship with Saudi Arabia as it does with China (+ NK, Rus, Iran).


Self deleted


A proposal to stop the purchase of property by nameless numbered entities ("123 LLC") would have my full support.

It's not like foreign buyers put down "China Inc" on the purchase forms.


You can just say that Chinese nationals without residency in the US can’t own land. Canada did something similar for foreigners and the legal defensibility of it seemed pretty good based on lawyers talking about it.

Basically, you can say (in legalese) that X group can’t be the controller of the land. They can open trusts or LLCs or whatever… but it’s transitive so their trust can’t name them as the beneficiaries and their LLCs can’t honor them as shareholders.



It seems to me like it might be a good idea to require citizenship to create an LLC.


What would that accomplish? Most LLCs are created (incorporated) by a lawyer who then cedes control to the intended owners. Even if you had a requirement for a US person, you'd just have figureheads collecting some nominal salary. Plenty of low-income folks would be eager to get an extra $500 a month for doing nothing.

For what it's worth, the formation of an LLC is a state affair, and every state has its own rules around requirements, reporting, transparency, etc. Most states keep the paperwork public; some states don't, but these are not the states where housing shortages are all that profound.


> Plenty of low-income folks would be eager to get an extra $500 a month for doing nothing.

If this hypothetical low income person owned the LLC so that others could operate it, nothing is stopping them from cleaning out the LLC's bank account whenever they want since they own it!


It doesn't work that way. An LLC is governed by an operating agreement, and that agreement can specify what actions needs approval from whom. You can have an LLC that is owned by one person and managed by another, and yet another party collects proceeds... sky's the limit, if it's not otherwise illegal, it's fair game.


so immigrants shouldnt be able to open restaurants? seems like a great plan...


Same. Just don't give apps all of the permissions. TikTok doesn't have access to my camera, photo library, microphone, local network, location, etc. It's not that hard.


How sure are you that it doesn't?


Because the operating system controls that and you can tell the operating system to deny these features.


But how do you know the OS is being honest? Or the hardware?


You can build an app and test it yourself. It also isn't terribly difficult to extract the java side of the platform code.


How can you trust that there isn't a backdoor that's not available to you?


Let me get this straight. You are saying that Google and Apple, in coordination with Bytedance, have introduced code into their operating systems to specifically permit apps signed with Bytedance's signing key to access these APIs without requesting permission. And that they must have done this in an especially sneaky way, given that, at least in the case of Android, the java layer of the code running on your device is trivial to inspect and the entire platform is available as open source. And absolutely nobody has noticed this, despite it being not an especially difficult thing for a security researcher to find (TikTok would need to be accessing an especially strange API since the ordinary APIs do checks in the java side on Android).

And Google and Apple are doing this because... why? Is Bytedance paying them a shitload of money? Are their CEOs secret CCP plants?

If you are concerned about this, how would even refusing to install TikTok protect you? After all, Google and Apple could simply collect the data directly in the OS and send it to Bytedance themselves.


It's for plausible deniability. They want to rally us against them, and they can stand on the sidelines smirking and raking in the cash that TikTok provides them.

I would recommend looking into some independent thinkers and doing your own research on the collusion between these big companies. There's definitely some out there, however they suspiciously get removed from HN as soon as they're posted.


Do you also forbid giving TikTok access to your brain? That’s the main issue here.


Dang, do you know how bad you sound? TikTok may be crack cocaine but it’s just media, protected expression, and beyond consideration for censorship. You let these bastards turn off this app and they will come back and do it again and again.

Mind cancer!

For the good of national security!

Save the children!

What a bunch of rubbish. Go back to school! Wait, you’re screwed there too!


Is your claim that all media is perfectly fungible so you don’t need to care about its content or origin and that media has no impact on your beliefs and psyche? That doesn’t sound reasonable to me.


No, I’m saying folks can choose what media they want. Are you suggesting that some media is so evil its availability shouldn’t be tolerated?

Yeah, no.


No, I'm not claiming that media is so evil it can't be tolerated. I'm claiming that there is a national security risk to letting an adversary control the information flow to the population. This has nothing to do with the contents of the media itself.


So run back to Facebook. Or Instagram. Or YouTube. Or Telegram. Or Discord. Or Reddit. Or …


Obviously that isn't the main issue here, since disabling TikTok on UT wifi does very little to stop people from actually using it.


So then what does disabling it accomplish?


Practically, nothing. It achieves geopolitical dick wagging, I guess. TikTok isn't a threat to networks. If it is any threat, it is a threat to users (and to a much lesser extent, to device managers). Disabling it on various networks is meaningless.


Why? They'll pay us to buy the land and if they fight us, we just take it. This is ideal: they give us money to own in name something that we will own in practice.


Why?

Worst comes to worst, anything physically in America owned by a hostile foreign power can be seized, pieces of paper be damned.


[flagged]


You should. I have no idea to what you're referring.


tell him what?


If I had to guess, it would probably be some revelation about Bill Gates being the biggest private owner of farmland in the US: https://www.theguardian.com/commentisfree/2021/apr/05/bill-g...


I wish he would just grow trees on those properties. For all we know all that land will be used to deploy soylent/fake meat alternative/cricket meat a la "eat the bugs".


High schoolers are used to having VPNs for school, time for college students to do that too. Especially since on-campus students have to live with managed WiFi in dorms too.

It's unfortunate to see this political censorship affect grown adults who can make their own decisions - but just happen to be at a state university.


You can say "Use a VPN"... However on multiple VPN providers, Tiktok blocks those endpoints. Instead of the Tiktok feed, you get a rude 403 error for any page.

Tiktok really REALLY wants to know your real IP address.

(edit: this comment pertains to the web page through a browser, not the Tiktok app. I did not test the app+vpn.)


Luckily, a good number of modern home routers support a one-click easy host-your-own-VPN feature.

I have an Amplifi router, and i simply linked my phone to it once, and now I can toggle a VPN on my phone with just one click whenever I need it (just like any third-party VPN service), and it will route the connection through my home network.

No complicated setup, the entire first-time setup took a grand total of 2 minutes. And no one else besides me (and my dad, sometimes) uses that VPN endpoint, so it is extremely unlikely to get detected as a VPN by TikTok or any other service (unless they all just decide to ban my residential ip address).


What’s the point of this? Isn’t it still your own IP address?


The point is that the (presumably public or school) network I am connected to will have a hard time blocking any content for me (given it will only keep seeing packets between the phone in my hand and the router at my apartment). It will also encrypt my traffic, so MITMing me or trying to see what I am doing will become rather difficult even for the operator of the network I am connected to.

Edit: I think I just realized what made you confused in my original comment. I didn't specify explicitly, but it was implied that I toggle VPN on my phone when I am outside of my home and am connected to a work/public/etc network. Because otherwise, you are correct, trying to VPN through my home network while my phone is actually at home already connected to that network will serve no purpose at all.


Plenty of reasons. Many people need a VPN to either bypass network restrictions (like this) or add a bit more security to an untrusted network (eg, cafe wifi). Setting up your own VPN is free, and in some cases, more secure than a shady VPN provider.


Those endpoints could also be blocked for legitimate reasons. Many use common VPN endpoints for malicious intentions.


The "legitimate reason" is that knowing information about their users is TikTok's business model.


It's also the business model of Google, Meta, Microsoft, and dozens of tech companies that are used everyday by users here without batting an eye. What is your point?


I criticize American surveillance capitalism too. What is your point? Are you trying to accuse me of hypocrisy, without knowing anything about me?


TikTok is hardly the only service that blocks what it thinks is VPN traffic. I only ever get captcha completion requests when I try to access sites via VPN.


Huh, the app is already on your phone, if it wants to know your location, it can already do that. If it wants to know the ISP, it's also probably quite easy...


Or IP addresses associated with VPNs are often found to do things that violate TikTok's ToS.


Read-only access can still be allowed. I suspect the "violation of ToS" is simply privacy - they don't want to serve traffic to someone they can't stalk.


Read-only access wouldn't prevent bots spamming views for ad revenue.


Read-only access would still be enough to launch DDOS attacks. I've never heard of any social media service offering read-only access to logged in users.


> I've never heard of any social media service offering read-only access to logged in users.

Twitter allows read-only access even to suspended accounts as well as when you go over certain rate-limits (I believe there was a daily tweet limit at one point, not sure if still there).


Well, Tiktok didn't ban vpn, it was those minority number of people who developed bots to capitalize likes/comments/shares. I think it is same with facebook or other social media.


Never had a problem using TikTok (the app) behind Mullvad.


Or they can just toggle the wifi on their phone. When I was in school, wifi wasn't provided and you were prohibited from bringing your own AP. And there were plenty of applications being firewalled.


I was wondering if LTE was also blocked for some reason causing everyone that be forced to use WiFi. Clearly, that's not the case. Are people unable to make the logical jump that WiFi isn't needed on mobile?

Even so, that still meet's whatever UT's goal is that it's not on their network. <shrug>

Edit: clearly, the sarcasm intended in wondering if someone was blocking LTE wasn't self-evident. Followed immediately by "Clearly not the case" should have been a clear indicator that it was a bit rhetorical and not something truly being considered.


UT-Austin doesn't operate commercial cell phone service, and jamming cell phone service is illegal.


> jamming cell phone service is illegal.

My local Macy's has found a workaround: thick walls. Ain't no way you're checking the price on Amazon inside their four walls!


Jokes aside, the walls are probably thick because Simon Property Group gets better insurance rates.


The thick walls did precede smartphones, but when I found out that Macy's tracks customers via in-store wifi, [1] I wondered if they might keep using thick walls in the future, to ensure that customers have to use the wifi.

1: https://abcnews.go.com/Technology/retailers-tracking-shopper...


As I understand, bluetooth beacons are really the go-to for this.

https://www.shopify.com/retail/the-ultimate-guide-to-using-b...

https://www.nytimes.com/interactive/2019/06/14/opinion/bluet...

I don't really think their marketing team is getting involved in determining the electromagnetic characteristics of the construction materials used in their locations, if much at all. And while Macy's does own a notable amount of property, much of their real estate is leased. And yet more of the property they own, they did not build. The reason that commercial construction from the 1980s interacts with your phone's signal is the same coincidental reason it will likely do the same in 2040: steel and masonry are good for large commercial buildings.


LTE is provided by national cell networks that aren't state-funded, so the law probably doesn't apply to them. Universities usually administer their own networks (at least they did in my rural uni 10 years ago), so they would have to comply with state laws.


I've never used TikTok, but I understand some people use it for an hour or two daily. What would be the impact on your mobile data with that kind of usage? Some kids might be on unlimited plans, but those who aren't might be hesitant to run up their bill.


Yep, which is increasingly my go-to. No I'm not gonna log into a free wifi that takes 10 seconds to load the portal and is probably less reliable and more restricted than my LTE.


Hey, I learned a lot about cybersecurity working around restrictions on the computers in high school! First it's your school, next it's your government, it's important that kids learn these skills so they have the basics of getting around authoritarian bullshit.


I don't think that's going to happen anymore, everything is too locked down. My 'cybersecurity' education came from having my computer infected with all types of malware in the '00s.

In the mobile era, nearly everything is sanitized and sandboxed. The idea of needing to get all your software through a centralized, vendor-controlled app store would be absurd in the '00s. Yet here we are.


Of note on this point, eduroam service standards require that VPN access be permitted [1, page 32], in part, because VPNs are often part of university infrastructure. Technically, the service definition only requires this for roaming visitors, but it would seem unusual to make a distinction in service on that point.

[1]: https://eduroam.org/wp-content/uploads/2020/02/GN3-12-192_ed...


That's interesting. Yeah, most common use for school VPN is reading e-books.


They did make their own decision. They connected to a network which has some content filtered. I'd imagine porn, gore sites, etc are - if not blocked - logged.


> High schoolers are used to having VPNs for school

I'm pretty sure most college students browse TikTok via their phones using mobile data. I'm not sure many will even notice it is blocked.


CS students are about to get a lot more popular there ("Hey, can you help me set up one of them 'VPN' things?")


All this really does is add a three second step to their students' day:

- Turn off WiFi

- Open TikTok on 5G connection

Everyone talking about VPNs is overthinking this.


and then once you realize how much data it eats, you'll see why they wanted to disable it in the first place


Serious question, does anyone really struggle with staying under their data limit anymore? I pay $28AUD a month and get 85GB, and I use about 20 of that per month?


In America, for unlimited it costs $80 on Verizon. With 5 lines it decreased to $30.

There are other alternatives like Mint mobile, however they are also expensive. 10 GB costs around $20 monthly excluding taxes.

In short, Mobile data is too expensive in the USA.


I pay $65 for unlimited on straight talk, which is on Verizon's network. I could get it cheaper if I gave up tethering or shared a plan.

There are other MVNOs that are even cheaper, for example Mint is unlimited (35GB of 5G then the rest on LTE) at $30 a month.


In Italy I pay less than $10 for about 120GB/month on 5G networks (Iliad).


American plans are generally a lot more expensive. Take a look at ATNT for example.


That's fine, it means IT doesn't have to contend with TikTok traffic on the network.


You got to start somewhere and normalize it.


Banning the app on government (including university) devices is one thing.

Blocking the website is another.

Perhaps someone who sets UT policies doesn't understand the difference?


Governments and businesses block sites on their network all the time for a variety of reasons. This is just adding an entry to a list. They block ports and bandwidth shape as well


I learned this the hard way. Biked 5 miles to go work at the library and when I tried connecting to my Postgres DB, the connection was blocked.


Blocking a website on government networking devices is the same thing. The goal is to deny the Chinese government access to Americans via government-owned equipment.


> Perhaps someone who sets UT policies doesn't understand the difference?

Or they just don't want the hassle of being targeted by a governor who's looking to score easy points against radical leftist college elites.


So if they care about data harvesting, are they also blocking Facebook?


Data harvesting to China is what these people care about


It's a move designed to garner political points and take advantage of the China-related fear-mongering. They don't actually give a shit about your privacy otherwise they would indeed block Facebook and other equally-malicious US-based spyware operators.


It’s not just political points; for example I’m not allowed the app on my personal devices as part of a work contract if I use the same device for anything work related (web emails etc). Nothing to gain there politically. I’m pretty sure Facebook doesn’t send your clipboard to the US government, anyway?


Same for youngs mental health


Why should it matter to me who is spying on me rather than being spied on at all?

Also, I don't know about you, but I find the idea of my own government spying on me just slightly more of an immediate threat then a country I have no plans of ever visiting.


Which is perfectly reasonable to me.


A good, albeit somewhat impotent, move. The companies wont yank it from the app stores in the US for fear of reprisal, but that is the better next step.


On what grounds would Apple/Google remove it from their app stores?

Did they remove Facebook after it was fined $5bn by the FTC for privacy breaches?


As if they've ever needed valid grounds to remove other less influential apps


TikTok's client had some pretty bad vulnerabilities like not using TLS in the past, but maybe those are patched by now.


Why is this good? why are people suddenly down to ban software? I don't use tiktok and never will but seeing all this discussion about how it should be banned is depressing.

If US companies want it to be less popular how about they compete and make a better product? Why are so many people carrying water for social media companies?

To get ahead of the criticism I'll likely get for this comment: I don't think tiktok/china do anything that US companies and every other social media platform have already been doing for years. Why ban tiktok and not every other social media app?


Its not banning software. Its banning a surveillance arm of the Chinese state. Or an attempt to.


> If US companies want it to be less popular how about they compete and make a better product?

They don't want it to be less popular; the US encourages media monopolies. The larger the better. US government belligerence towards TikTok served the same purpose as US government belligerence towards Twitter and Facebook: leverage in order to be able to censor it and emphasize US narratives.

They won, TikTok is fully censoring based on US government "suggestions," and this state/local-level political grandstanding are people jumping into an operation that is already over.


>why are people suddenly down to ban software?

>Why ban tiktok and not every other social media app?

If we banned all software that tracks users, capitalizes on their data, and doesn't respect privacy/GDPR/whatever - the world would be a better place.


Seems to me that Google and Apple could simply not provide hardware API access that leaks privacy info. But that would hurt all the other 'legitimate' uses of that information (targeted advertising), and no one wants to be the first person to jump off that gravy train.


> better place

..definitely a lot more expensive, but better.

Hm. Is it ok if we will actually block poor people from using internet?


Nothing "good" about this move. It's a nothing burger. Everyone's phone literally tracks them with every other app, basically in the same way. Hell, the cell phone carriers are even tracking you, along with the U.S. government. So yeah, great job removing tiktok which ultimately does nothing for your opsec or privacy.

It's completely and utterly political. Just like banning twitter would be, although that actually has more merit than the banning of tiktok.

Sorry to burst your bubble.


Its GEO political and the smart move. It's bad enough having local actors surveil citizens, let alone foreign actors, let alone foreign malicious actors.


The companies wont yank it from the app stores in the US for fear of losing their cut of ad revenue but that is the better next step.

Fixed that for you.


The revenue from TikTok is minscule compared to losing access the Chinese market. That is the bigger risk they face.


Google has zero revenue from China. They pulled out of China when told they would have to censor search results years ago. Android phones in China don’t use Google’s android.


In 2018, Google made $3 billion in China from Chinese companies buying ads.


I guess then I should say they made nothing in China - those Chinese companies buying ads would have been for ads outside of China.

Either way, it's about as big a contrast as is possible with Apple who are all in on China in every way.


The new satanic panic.


Why should the US allow the CCP to have free rein over user's data when the CCP bans US Tech companies from operating in China for the same reason?


Why should you get a say in what applications americans decide to use?


The same reason we get a say in anything? We live in a republic and can vote.


Because that’s why we still have a society. You can’t put the ability to launch nuclear missiles in a freely distributed app so consider this a less exaggerated version of that restriction.


Come on man, can you not make absurd false equivalencies? Do you _really_ believe TikTok is comparable to an app launching NUCLEAR WEAPONS?! get a grip


I don’t see why not? I did point out it’s an exaggerated analogy but a hostile nation having a direct propaganda line of access to a nation’s youth can potentially be used destructively.


This is pointless theater. The PRC already has the SF-86 forms for everyone with a security clearance, and our medical histories via health insurance hacks, etc


That is a very defeatist attitude.


I don't want to follow the line of thinking that the US govt should enact similar policies to the CCP.


it's not enacting similar policies though. it's taking a reciprocal stance -- don't want to allow our apps? that's fine, but you can't expect we'll allow yours. default to open but restrict if others restrict feels like a very fair policy to me. right now we have open no matter what. this is too permissive.


China allows foreign apps if they obey the same rules on content and reporting and providing government access that Chinese apps must follow.

The reciprocal stance by the US would be to allow TikTok but subject it to the same rules Facebook and Twitter and YouTube are subject to.


China blocks foreign apps just cause they're foreign and popular, under the guise of whatever law was deliberately designed for this purpose, and now we're doing the similar thing with TikTok.


I'm almost ok with this cause of my dislike for China-based companies, esp TikTok, but then I remember how YouTube's been unopposed and twiddling their thumbs for like a decade until they knocked off TikTok. Our economy and world influence grow by building better products, not by trying to limit outside competition to the benefit of a few domestic companies. US govt banning TikTok would be like saying, we have TikTok at home (YT Shorts).

It's not just China, btw. EU is extra protectionist too. I don't want to be like them.


Why shouldn't it be up to the user? Who asked the government?

This is not how the Internet was supposed to work.


Would you rather know if it was up to the government or not know?

Because the case with TikTok is that we do not know what the Chinese government is going to do with whatever it collects from the app. Or even if they do. Or anything really.

Now, while I think banning TikTok's traffic on the campus network is more of a stunt than anything worthwhile. I do see the argument from banning TikTok and just about any other non-essential app from government issued mobile hardware.

That's an area where you'd want to have as little possible surface area exposed as you can.


This is about banning access to TikTok for client devices of a campus network. It has nothing to do with banning the TikTok app on government-issued phones.


I can imagine that that's the argument they're coming from. So comparing and contrasting the situations isn't out of line.


If you don't like TikTok or are concerned about the Chinese government collecting information on you, those are excellent reasons for you not to use TikTok. But what do your preferences have to do with the freedom of other people?


But it's also UT-Austin's network. They should have some say in what traffic the allow on it.


You are explaining why UT-Austin should have the power of say in what traffic they allow on their network, which I agree with they should have. It can be used for many legitimate things, including blocking malicious endpoints associated with DDoS, blocking websites with known malware, stuff that very negatively affects the campus network infra, etc.

However, you aren't explaining why UT-Austin should get to decide which apps (that don't affect network operations or campus device security) people can use on their personal devices on UT-Austin network.

Sure, it technically falls under the very large umbrella of "allowing traffic". No one is disputing that they de-facto have that power. I believe the original question was more along the lines of "how can they reasonably justify doing so without jumping to non-sequeters and bs excuses".


If you are saying they should have to explain or justify why they block traffic to TikTok's services, you are saying they don't have "the power of say". Because you are saying that power is conditional on you accepting their explanation.


I agree that they have the power of say, and it isn't conditional on me (or anyone else) accepting their explanation.

I was just bringing up examples of how I believed those powers should be reasonably used and the kinds of situations they were intended for (in my opinion). And the current situation is not how I believe they should be used, but they technically have the power to do it.


Why should you decide which application I can/can't use? I thought people especially right winged people always cry about "freedom"? I don't care about tiktok/facebook etc... but people celebrating on political agenda is kinda distressing to me.


I absolutely despise how easily a lot of people on HN who were (justifiably) mocking the whole "think of the kids" (Patriot Act and many previous online censorhip attempts come to mind) can be baited into doing a full 180 and using variations of the exact same excuse to do the exact same thing.


You realize Tik tok is owned by the CCP right?


> You realize Tik tok is owned by the CCP right?

Absolutely amazing how 'national security' can just turn off all that personal liberties crap as long as the 'national threat' resonates along your political lines.


And then people on HN and Reddit and Twitter and elsewhere gasp "how were people so short-sighted and stupid to support Patriot Act back then, unlike us, who are so smart and enlightened". The current situation is the prime example of how, except it isn't even comparable to the shock of 9/11 that people experienced back then.


Yeah, and those opposing Patriot Act were clearly anti-american terrorist sympathizers, while those opposing CISPA and other online censorship bills were all just supporting crimes against children and were probably secret pedophiles themselves. /s

Do you realize that core principles matter, regardless of who is on the other side, right? That's the whole point of them. Back in the day, the ones on the receiving end were those opposed to the Vietnam war, and they persevered despite the government and the popular sentiment being against them (being accused of hating the america, being communism sympathizers, etc.) If we didn't hold those core principles dear, regardless of those protestors being "anti-american", imo we would be worse off.


Just start playing a bunch of stuff backwards on TikTok and watch the whole backmasking debate rise from the ashes


It's not a panic when it's clear as day this app is used for surveillance purposes


So is Google Search, but few are calling for banning that.


Did Google turn over data to a government to help track that person down, arrest them, and intern them in a political reeducation camps ?


Almost certainly. They definitely turned over data to the US government to help them locate and connect people of interest (see Edward Snowden's revelations), some of which was very likely used to incarcerate people. Whether you consider incarceration equivalent to re-education is debatable. I find it quite likely that they also did this for other governments with less scruples about human rights.

Either way, pretty sure no US citizens have been incarcerated in political re-education camps in the USA because of data shared with any government by either Google or Tik Tok or anyone else.


If you are referencing criminals charged through the justice system, that is decidedly not the same as hunting down ethnic minorities based on their race and religion without charge or trial. You must know this.

> They definitely turned over data to the US government to help them locate and connect people of interest

Citation?

> Whether you consider incarceration equivalent to re-education is debatable.

It's not, see above.

> I find it quite likely that they also did this for other governments with less scruples about human rights.

Citation?

> pretty sure no US citizens have been incarcerated in political re-education camps

You can be very sure because political re-education camps don't exist. There is a lot to criticize about the American justice system, this isn't applicable.


My parents peeping into my personal info and my neighbors down the street peeping into my personal info are two different things.


Sure, but neither Google nor Facebook are your parents.

And a US citizen has much more to lose if their private data is being shared with the US government than with the Chinese government.


Oh you're right.. Fuck it, I may as well just install a camera in my bathroom and live stream it. /s


Interesting comparison. What part of TikTok giving data on US persons to a government that uses digital surveillance to intern political enemies and undesirable ethnicities resembles a panic rooted in a religiously motivated paranoia?

https://www.cnn.com/2022/09/14/tech/tiktok-china-data/index.... https://www.wsj.com/articles/tiktok-employees-improperly-acc... https://www.theguardian.com/technology/2021/dec/15/documents...


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Fact #1: Certain dishes from specific Cantonese and Vietnamese restaurants will reliably give me a migraine and induce sleepiness.

Fact #2: The existence of Fact #1 does not make me a racist.

Everyone in the food industry invested in savory food has a motive for tainting safety research on MSG. It happened with the sugar industry [0]. Unlike sugar, MSG can hide behind lots of alternative names, like yeast extract, natural flavors, etc. so the truth is easier to obfuscate.

[0] https://www.npr.org/sections/thetwo-way/2016/09/13/493739074...


How does a food ingredient have anything to do with a CCP surveillance app?

Reach harder.


Citing the very real and horrible history of ethnic discrimination to dismiss valid criticism of an authoritarian state is odd. It's also exactly what the CCP does.

https://twitter.com/nathanlawkc/status/1464891227694850049 https://www.aspistrategist.org.au/stopasianhate-chinese-dias...


Is it possible to say anything positive or even neutral about China without a comment like this? Do you respond to every mention of the US with links of all the war crimes?

Can you address the content of the comment you're responding to? Can you demonstrate that TikTok causes more harm than MSG?


> Do you respond to every mention of the US with links of all the war crimes?

If the private companies in question was complicit and potentially had a role in these crimes, yes I would. But to highlight your false equivalency, private industry in the US doesn't obey the US government, despite what the bizarre TwitterFiles PR campaign by right wing operatives is trying to tell you.


So what did TikTok do specifically?


That question is answered by what we know.

TikTok has the ability (and have been caught) tracking specific American citizens (journalists) https://www.wsj.com/articles/tiktok-employees-improperly-acc...

TikTok as a Chinese company cannot refuse data requests on behalf of the Chinese government. TikTok's top security official resigned over this reality: https://techcrunch.com/2022/07/15/tiktoks-chief-security-off...

If you are naive enough to think an authoritarian government obsessed with digital surveillance would simply not use the largest data gathering tool on persons in the world, I don't know what to tell you. Considering what we know what they use their connections to Chinese companies for (theguardian.com/technology/2021/dec/15/documents-link-huawei-uyghur-surveillance-projects-report-claims), it's fairly easy to connect the dots.

People who are determined to not accept this reality won't expect it, i'm not going to play the "give me more proof" game if no proof will ever do.


So tiktok wasn't involved in any war crimes or anything like that, but you're still doing it. Can you just admit "i hate china, i hate all enemies of my government" or something?


> So tiktok wasn't involved in any war crimes or anything like that

> People who are determined to not accept this reality won't expect it

I'll save my breath.

> Can you just admit "i hate china"

Nice bit of projection there at the end. "All criticism of an authoritarian government committing human rights atrocities is all just racism, actually." Exactly what CCP state media says.


I'm not sure what you're trying to get at.

Looking narrowly at Tiktok, it doesn't really capture any more than what Google/Facebook/Instagram/Twitter/Linkedin all would. And regulators and orgs are OK with those systems hoovering up all the data they can. But when Tiktok showed up, it's the "China Restaurant Syndrome" all over again, with breathless scares about the evil Chinese stealing our data!

Yes, China is a communist party-led state, according to the CIA world factbook. Yes, they have terrible abuses in their own history. Yes, they tamp down dissent via black-bagging and other abuses. Yes, they have and continue to do a genocide on the Uighurs (Muslims) in the country.

The US peoples (separate from the government) also has a pretty bad case of anti-Asian and anti-Chinese sentiment. It was only a few days ago that some 50ish year old white lady stabbed an Asian 18 year old Indiana University student on the city bus, while stating to police “it would be one less person to blow up our country”. https://www.cnn.com/2023/01/16/us/indiana-university-student...

This isn't a case of whataboutism. What the Chinese government are doing to their own people is abhorrent, and likely worthy of being charged with crimes against humanity. AND people who hate Chinese for being Chinese heritage are also just as wrong. (And while we're at it, the USA has done its share of abhorrent stuff that it too should be charged with war crimes and crimes against humanity.)

It may be simple to color every situation with black or white. But there's a great deal of nuance here. Why isn't UT-Austin also blocking Google or Facebook and related properties? Is that because they're USA based companies? Why only Tiktok? Because where I am, it appears to be founded in Sinophobia, pure and simple.


He's trying to suggest that you are a Chinese agent who should be imprisoned. This is based on your "odd" opinions and your way of making arguments "exactly like the CCP does."


I personally would care if my own rhetoric matched that of a government committing human rights atrocities against civilian populations on a scale not seen since WW2, but that's me. And your attempts to put words in my mouth about "Chinese agents" is showing your paranoia, and has nothing to do with me.


> it doesn't really capture any more than what Google/Facebook/Instagram/Twitter/Linkedin all would

Yes it does. A lot more.

> https://www.theguardian.com/technology/2022/jul/19/tiktok-ha...

> What’s different about the way TikTok collects data?

> TikTok’s data collection methods include the ability to collect user contact lists, access calendars, scan hard drives including external ones and geolocate devices on an hourly basis.

> “When the app is in use, it has significantly more permissions than it really needs,” said Robert Potter, co-CEO of Internet 2.0 and one of the editors of the report.

> “It grants those permissions by default. When a user doesn’t give it permission … [TikTok] persistently asks.

> “If you tell Facebook you don’t want to share something, it won’t ask you again. TikTok is much more aggressive.”

> “The application can and will run successfully without any of this data being gathered. This leads us to believe that the only reason this information has been gathered is for data harvesting,” it concluded.

And that's besides the point. All social media gathers data, it matters what they do with it. TikTok by law cannot refuse a data request from the CCP, a government that has used digital tracking to locate and imprison people.

TikTok's CTO even quit over the fact that when he tried to stop TikTok from leaking data back to the CCP, he couldn't: https://techcrunch.com/2022/07/15/tiktoks-chief-security-off...

If none of this matters to you, fine. If you trust an authoritarian government more than a democratic one, ok. Just don't pretend all actors in this play are the same.


I would be more sympathetic to this line of argument if the CCP weren't currently banning every single US-based social network.

Reciprocation is the only sensible response. This shouldn't be about race, or even data. It should be about trade policy.


Well, CCP is an extremely authoritarian state, and plenty of their constituents would love to be able to access western apps/services.

The cool thing is that US, for all its faults, is not like that, and shouldn't aspire to be like that. If the US constituents want to access TikTok, they should be able to, unless it poses some actual danger. An example of such danger would be what led to the recent ban on Huawei equipment in the networking infra, which I fully support.

But TikTok ain't it, and this is just pure "well those nasty guys did this nasty thing, so we are gonna do the same nasty thing because uhhhh they did that thing!"


Access to foreign goods and services is mediated by US foreign policy and trade policy. These are tools to be used to advantage our home country in the context of global competition.

Aspiration needs to be balanced against the realities of dealing with a powerful adversary.


"The Chinese Government is bad."

"We should enact policy similar to what the Chinese Government does."

Not sure if I agree.


Oversimplifications to this degree aren't helpful. A specific policy should see a specific response, no matter who you think is "bad".


Offtopic, sharing a story:

Our gymnasium pays for fortiguard so that they can block games on the web. This includes lichess.org etc.

This is a country with non ascii latin letters in the alphabet, but despite this many domains were falsely banned for being an IDN homograph attack.

Cracked minecraft clients are stored on a shared network drive and LAN multiplayer can still be played during boring informatics lessons.

Is blocking websites on the european eduroam allowed? I suppose it is ... ?


In case anyone else was confused, the word "gymnasium" is used for "high school" in some countries (e.g. Germany).


> Is blocking websites on the european eduroam allowed? I suppose it is ...

It is, unfortunately. Its up to each institution to decide their own network policy.

Eduroam suggests (or at least, did in the past) that the policy should be as permissive as possible, but most institutions block a metric fuckload of shit.

The only network wide blocking suggested is 25/TCP last time I checked, to prevent spam.


Does China allow Instagram and Facebook in the country?


Do you want your government to behave the same way as the CCP?


I would like them to treat the CCP as a malicious entity.


Yes. If they launch a missile, send a missile back.


And if they round up and arrest political and religious dissidents, we should do the same? We can't lose the repression arms race to China, after all...

Firing a missile is an external action. This is not an external question, this is a question of domestic information policy. It's hypocritical for a nation championing free speech to have a restrictive domestic information policy.


Economic sanctions is an external action. Tariffs are a thing that exist. It's not by any means "repression", so please don't make the argument lame by taking it there.


I'm pretty sure you were the one who took the argument into this direction, by equating banning a chat app to launching missiles - waging war.

I'm not asking us to hold ourselves to China's standards - that's the lowest bar in the universe. I'm asking us to hold ourselves to our own standards.


War is not repression. It is unfortunate but often the only sensible approach when the other party is aggressor. It’s not oppression to respond in kind. It is common sense.


> It is unfortunate but often the only sensible approach when the other party is aggressor.

How exactly is China banning an app in its domestic market aggression?

You have a very strange definition of aggression.


Just because your enemy wears heavy armor doesn't mean you should be naked.


Yes. China has walled itself off economically, preventing American companies from making money in China. It's pretty crazy for the US to let the CCP run rampant in the US and compete against American companies when American companies don't have that same right in China.

I think we should definitely ban Bytedance and all Chinese companies until China opens up their economy to the US. I hate Trump and was against a lot but I supported tariffs against Chinese products.


It's Great (Fire) Walled


right, so tit for tat was I'm pretty the GP's point


"It's bigger in Texas"


They aren’t per se banned but they don’t implement censorship and account identification rules that China requires of all social media so are blocked.


No, but it has allowed $9bn in Texas pension fund dollars to flow into Tencent and Alibaba, companies heavily involved in churning through all that sweet, sweet US user data.

Follow the money. This is political point scoring at its most brazen.

> Yet through Texas’ seven public pension funds, which are fueled primarily by contributions from members but are guaranteed and backed by state taxpayer dollars, $9.12 billion is invested in companies in China, based on a Hearst Newspapers analysis of figures provided by the seven funds — representing a multi-billion dollar bet in the success of the Communist country’s economy.

https://www.expressnews.com/news/legislature/article/Texas-i...


Banning this is the right move for the wrong reasons, imo. TikTok (and Youtube shorts) are both terribly addictive and we should make sure we understand their impacts on developing (and developed) minds before just opening the floodgates to them.


Probably a moot point for the most part. Most students will have their own data plans on their phones. Maybe in some classrooms that's not possible. Futhermore, TikTok should be banned... (Carthago Delenda Est)


I think it's a good idea. Add twitter, insta, and fb to the list as well.


Does anyone know how to check Gov. Greg Abbott for donations from Facebook/Facebook controlled PACs?


I don't think Facebook cares about picking up some market share from the handful of users of TX state-funded Internet.

This is just a token move to make it look like Abbott is 'tough on China'. I see a presidential run in his future.



I don't immediately have an answer for you about donations, but there's this old WSJ piece about meetings Facebook had with key politicians:

https://www.wsj.com/articles/facebook-ceo-mark-zuckerberg-st...


Yea it would be great to know better ways to donate to him.


Funny, when I was Googling around for https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=34421594 , I stumbled across several questions about how to block TikTok in a router.


What about the others?

Seems like the big social media companies might be putting pressure on things to ban TikTok, because they are eating their lunch.

Only Google and Meta should be able to hoover up peoples personal data, and resell it to the Government!


Montana State University has also done the same, including residence hall internet.


Hard to feel bad for TikTok when I couldn't access any of my western services while visiting China.


Why can't the US just accept they lost this one, and just put the effort into creating the next big thing before China does it again?


as long as they don't ban the sugardaddy apps I don't care what UT Austin does


Aside from the unnamed security risks the admins mention, Texas A&M undoubtedly has an Acceptable Use Policy in place for their campus networks, and this would be an AUP that restricts usage to academic type only. Technically it is against the rules of any university or college or school to be using non-academic, frivolous apps like these, by way of academic resources.

It would be like renting a classroom to hold your bachelor party. Or a homeless person living in the library. That's not what school is for.

Academic institutions are well within their rights to block all kinds of social media, especially when those apps are hogging bandwidth, memory, storage, screen space, or whatever. They're disruptive to the learners who pay tuition and they're a drain on taxpayers and alumni alike.

Good riddance.


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There is no freedom of international trade enshrined anywhere in the U.S. governmental system.




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