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Reminder that this was entirely initiated by Russia, which is the country that needs to make a meaningful peace proposal such as returning to the status quo ante bellum.



I do not condone Russia's invasion but this is a simplistic take. One could also make a case like this: In 2014 a revolution overthrew Ukraine's legally elected government. The victorious revolutionaries then attempted to force the supporters of the overthrown government to remain part of the same country with them rather than letting them secede. The supporters of the overthrown government turned to Russia for aid.

There are many contentious issues related to this situation, many inconclusive arguments over who started the violence during the revolution, over the extent to which the overthrown government was a Russian puppet, over the extent to which the revolutionaries were NATO puppets, over whether or not the revolution was justified despite it having deposed a fairly elected government because the government was corrupt, and so on, over Russian hypocrisy in supporting Donbass separatists even though Russia would not permit one of its own territories to secede, etc. I would not say that it is an open and shut matter.

The way I see it, at the very least there is not some cartoonishly good side in this war that is covered only in honor.


Keep dreaming. They will not make a meaningful peace proposition until they're defeated and fully evacuated from the 1991 borders of Ukraine. This is exactly why weapons deliveries to Ukraine are essential to achieve that.


If an adult persuaded a child to stick their finger in a mousetrap, the resulting injury wouldn’t be entirely owed to said mousetrap.

Like it or not, Putin did exactly what he said he would do should Ukraine (or any other border adjacent country), attempt to join NATO. What changed is that our sitting President encouraged Ukraine’s to go for it, where past presidents discouraged poking the bear.


Your argument is supporting the equivalent of telling a physically abused person: "if you call the cops, I will beat you more. Why are you making me hurt you?"


Arguments by allegory never seem to work well on HN.


> or any other border adjacent country

Must have missed the Russian invasion of Finland.


Yes, terrorists can do exactly what they said to their victims, unless their demands are met. This doesn't make them "children persuaded to hurt themselves".


The adult is the mousetrap in your comparison


Daily reminder that not only Americans have agency in this world. Even Putin had agency to not start the war. And Ukrainians have agency to pursue whatever means available to free themselves from Russian influence.


In this analogy, Putin is the child who stuck their finger in the mousetrap?




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