The biggest problem is that bra sizes are a measurement of volume, not just circumference. Stores will typically use a formula that lumps you into similar “sister sizes” so they don’t have to carry as many sizes. For example, a 32DD is very similar to a 40A, so most stores don’t carry 40 and push everyone towards 32.
Which is the same as going to a restaurant which gives you soup in a tall glass because it holds nearly as much soup as a bowl.
After my cancer treatment (well, during, really) and 75% resection of my liver I developed severe gynecomastia that couldn't be surgically addressed. It was embarrassing and uncomfortable. The residents of the reddit /r/abrathatfits[1] group were very helpful in helping me find a solution to fit me (now at a 44DD). There are a lot of variables though, and even within a brand two different styles will fit very differently. The fitters on the reddit site had the experience to know how to steer me. See also: bratabase.com[2]
Yup, r/abrathatfits and the associated calculator are by far the best online resource when it comes to sizing and fitting bras. And as you noticed, they are very inclusive too.
It doesn't help that I think most women would prefer (or perhaps think most men would prefer) that their bra says 32DD instead of 40A. Especially since lots of people get sized when they're in their teens and don't adjust until it becomes really problematic.
I think you overestimate how many women care about the letter associated with their cup size. And how many men even know their partner’s cup size. Yes, many women are self-conscious about their breast size but cup size isn’t analogous to “penis length” where the literal number matters. Like it’s kind of an in-joke among women that “double d’s” aren’t actually all that large despite being what men associate with “big boobs.” It’s always a fun time asking all the boyfriends to guess cup sizes, my friend who has boobs so large she’s considered reduction for spine health alone always gets DD when she’s actually an H.
Vanity sizing absolutely is a thing but bra size is somewhat immune to it because getting it wrong means pain and discomfort.
My wife's best friend in the Navy was in that exact situation. THe Navy luckily approved her request for a breast reduction surgery. But she was an H-cup prior to pregnancy. Her and her husband decided to have a kid, she got pregnant, breasts grew more and listening to her and my wife talk about it, I really felt for her. It sounds really painful. And it is also expensive when breasts are that large and you have to go to specialty boutiques.
Well, as is being discussed, the band size matters a lot when discussing cup sizes.
A 36DD is pretty large, a 28DD is not in absolute terms. But in terms of appearance, a true 28DD will look quite large on a small frame.
I would bet a lot of money that many folks would prefer to think of themselves as a 34B vs a 36A for both reasons - you might feel like you're more ideally proportioned with a smaller band size and you have a bigger cup size to boot.
> A 36DD is pretty large, a 28DD is not in absolute terms. But in terms of appearance, a true 28DD will look quite large on a small frame.
Nope. 36DD isn't really that large, and a 28DD doesn't look very large at all even accounting for the small frame. I'm a bra fitter at a specialty boutique (I also do their IT - my life is weird) and I see a lot of breasts. I'm also personally a 28GG/H and most people would consider me on the larger size of average; nobody would consider me 'large chested'. A 28DD is still going to look tiny. They just probably think they're a 34A, but in general at that size women who are fed up with bras just stop wearing them.
Something that seems to be lost in the differences between "horny men craving the DD's" and "women figuring out a practical dress" is the fashion statement made with particular styles of bra, size vs shape preferences, and the relationship of bras to other cosmetic treatments. It's quite a sociological rabbit hole.
In the midcentury the cone or "bullet bra" was really in vogue. Besides lifting the profile to an unnaturally perky shape, it did succeed at providing comfort. It was high tech fashion, for the time. But this look was unmistakably of an era. From the 60's on, perceptually natural shapes became more popular. And this trend towards a natural look probably wasn't just an isolated cultural trend or down to technical changes in bras themselves, since it came along with the growing popularity of surgical breast implants; implants disguise themselves much better.
And yet, sometimes one will come across horny art where naked women are drawn with an unnatural, torpedo shaped bust, as if they were wearing an invisible bullet bra. Is it simple ignorance of the difference? Is it the artist projecting the shape they want onto the figure? This kind of art, being a private fantasy, suggests thoughts that ordinarily wouldn't be spoken.
These questions occur rather independent of the actual size of a natural bustline. It could easily be the case that more men enjoy pointy chests and don't have the background needed to ask for it, so they ask for "large" instead, but are in turn influenced by media into a form of "large" that is unbelievable(much as how standards for muscularity and fitness have become driven by drug usage, and so imagery of "powerful" characters in fiction now often tends towards monstrous cartoon proportions and near-fainting leanness). And on the woman's side, there's a question of "do I want to stand out" that leads towards staying within the trend of natural, and therefore towards considering surgical enhancements that disguise the true intent.
Meanwhile, practical matters of naturally large chests are clouded by all of this. The bell curves of physique are certainly full of unwanted remarks and suppositions.
>> It doesn't help that I think most women would prefer (or perhaps think most men would prefer) that their bra says 32DD instead of 40A.
> I think you overestimate how many women care about the letter associated with their cup size.
I would have thought women cared at least as much about the circumference number. That's what they worry about in every other item of clothing; that's why the same clothes are a smaller size at high-priced stores than they are at low-priced stores. The letter is a measurement of whether you have a flat chest, but the number is a measurement of whether you're fat!
It's also not practical to fit into a size 32 if one's true band size is 40, any more than someone with a 40 inch waist can wear size 32 pants.
You can go the other way more easily and in my understanding/experience that's typically what happens (i.e. someone who's true size is 32DD wearing a 40A due to a limited set of options available in many brick-and-mortar stores).
Picture trying to fit an orange into a cup that's too small — there will be space between the orange and the cup, which could make it seem like the cup is too big. If you can't get a cup that's big enough for the orange to fit in, a flat plate (i.e. 40A) is the second-best option since at least it won't have weird gaps. This leads to women underestimating their true cup size.
> Picture trying to fit an orange into a cup that's too small — there will be space between the orange and the cup, which could make it seem like the cup is too big.
I'm not saying this is a good idea, but it seems like that space between the orange and the too-small cup depends on the orange being rigid, and the analogy runs into trouble there.
The band size is essentially the circumference of your rib cage, which, sure, can change if you're severely overweight, but generally isn't nearly as affected by weight gain as, say, your waist measurement.
I've only ever seen breast size insecurity with young teenagers or japanese RPGs. I'm pretty sure most women could be happy with a bra size of Π as long as it fits and isn't exorbitantly expensive.
I work as a bra fitter and ironically what you see is actually usually the opposite: Women aren't comfortable with their cup size because they think it's 'too big'. This is usually mid size women (like 32F - 38DD/E); women with a substantial amount of tissue usually are just happy with anything that actually fits.
Why do you think that is, generally speaking? Do they feel like large breasts garner unwanted attention, or is it something that isn’t even on the radar?
2.) What you said, where they don't want the unwanted attention. In the case of women who are over 40, a lot of them also lived most of their lives in a culture where a woman with large breasts was considered to be 'asking' to be sexualized. Books, TV, movies, etc. In addition, if they're from more conservative communities there's a focus on not 'tempting' men and the knowledge that if they're harassed their communities will just be like 'well you didn't hide that you have large breasts well enough, of course that happened.'
3.) A desire to be 'normal'. This group calms down when I mention that the current sizes that are carried in most stores were determined back in the 60s-70s and that their size is normal, the major American companies just like to coast on bad and outdated data. (Because why change if people still buy them?)
Since you often can't return a product that has been worn next to human skin perhaps the companies selling bras have realized that being able to sell more bras until a person figures out the right size is profit? Just one example of where obfuscating size/quantity/other_parameters is used for profit. For example, a "2x4" is actually 1+1/2 inches by 3+1/2 inches? This has been going on since the time of the Egyptians when you had to bring your own scale to the market to weigh goods, and watch out for the thumb on the scale.
Not sure how representative high school is for the rest of life in these kind of areas.
In general, it's my experience that some (maybe even many?) women are far more concerned about these sort of things than men are, just many men are insecure/worried about penis size, but women in general don't actually care all that much (in both cases, some do, but the majority don't).
It varies by age. Women in their 20s and 30s don't care that much. Teens and preteens are awkward.
Gen X women are not okay with their bodies. I feel bad.
Boomer and Silent Generation women are either very gracious and don't care OR are very mad that 80-something boobs, shoulders, and bodies don't work like 20-something boobs, shoulders, and bodies.
(I work as a bra fitter, so take this with a grain of salt as my information is going to be limited to a single geographical location.)
I guess age plays a big part? In my teens I was very insecure and awkward, too. Now in my late 30s: whatever, I don't care. But then last summer I noticed my hair is thinning and I'll probably be bald or balding in n years, and I was surprised how much this worries me :-/
Age and how it relates to life experience. I imagine the teen awkwardness will persist for a long time (although I'm unsure, some of the girls [plus some of the middle/high school teachers I've fit] specifically talk about the reactions of boys around them and our idea of acceptable male adolescent behavior is changing rapidly).
I was talking with my coworker about this today actually: Gen X women are in an uncomfortable position of being raised in an era of mass media and unattainable ideals without the ability to talk to one another openly and anonymously that Millennials/Gen Z/Alpha have. For example, Gen X women are (generally) way more concerned about the fat squeezing out of their bra bands than Millennial or Zoomer women even though they all have it. Likewise, most of the 'oh I can't be X size because it's 'vulgar'/'I have to minimize'/'I have to be a certain shape' comes from Gen X and older. There are very clear social messages which have changed with generation that are fascinating to watch. This is even more pronounced in the language/approach our male customers have. The older crossdressers or trans women are way different than our younger ones.
Boomers and older genuinely aren't dealing well with their aging when it comes to things like mobility, medical conditions, etc. For example, front closure bras are really useful for older women who have lost shoulder/arm mobility but there are physics trade-offs that have to be made. Likewise, a lot of them can't stand the pressure that's needed for a good fitting wired bra as their muscles/bones/etc. are less resilient so they need wirefree options but can't accept that it means they will not get the shape they're used to. I just want to grab them by their fragile boned shoulders and shake them. You're 75! It's okay! Nobody cares if you don't have the breast shape under clothes of a 22 year old!
I hope this does get better as we age. Watching older women hate themselves is so sad.
I'm 34 and just in my lifetime it's become way less acceptable for men to comment on women's bodies and in schools there's been a complete flip from 'don't dress like that, you'll distract the boys' to the focus being on that the boys shouldn't care and should still behave. (To an extreme, I think. Expecting adult men to have that level of self-control is fine, but a 12 year old boy is kind of new to 'everything make peepee hard' so maybe cut them a little slack.)
Essentially, existing as an obvious female is no longer seen as an acceptable reason to sexualize them.
I'm sure the boys will still do it because part of being an adolescent is doing what adults tell you not to, but the girls might get less horrified by their breasts if the adults around them view comments on them poorly/support them.
I found /r/abrathatfits through a acquaintance's blog about a decade ago and this calculator made a huge difference in my life. I did not know that bras could actually be comfortable and supportive.
Yeah, I resorted to custom ordering Ewa Michalaks (which sucked because at least back in 2012/2013 their QC was awful) or just tailoring the bands. I have no depth perception, so you can guess how good I am at sewing. (Hint: I am terrible at it.)
Edit: Oh, but Comexim is a decent option if you're a 26. They do custom sizes like EM, but their QC is much better.
Comexim is the only brand I've found that's close-set enough for me, but I usually do wear Panache bras. My Ava and Roche are in very heavy rotation, and even if the gore on Claras stab me, they're so pretty...
I love that I can do complex math, speak multiple languages, etc. but ask me to thread a needle and I'm like 'that'll take an hour you better sit down'.
off-topic but I'm a fan of your user name. Potassium Permanganate will always remind me of the delight on Martin Poliakoff's face in this video https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=OLUyeCC-2Ko
How on earth do you wear a 32 inch band with a 40 inch underbust? I mean... maybe we can't all tell perfect fit between a 38 and a 40, but if somebody is tightening a vise around your underbust, how do you miss that?
And yes, abrathatfits is probably the best calculator out there. But my mind still boggles at the claim that stores push a 32 on you when you're a 40. I'd expect a place like that to lose customers like a leaky bucket.
They have found the bra part of it to be especially difficult because of how hard the sizing is. There are bust and band measurements as used in these sorts of calculators, but at the end of the day the breasts themselves just have different shapes. I'm surprised that these sorts of calculators don't take that into account by having the user first pick their specific "archetype", e.g. from a set of images. I wonder if that's what abrathatfits.org is doing by getting measurements in different positions to better capture the shape. Still, I wonder if this could be accomplished more simply.
Anyways this can be tough for a startup given the higher return rates and more hesitation when buying bras. They've found success in offering flexibly fitting bralettes made of stretchy materials (e.g. micromodal). This sort of sidesteps the fitting issue because the fit doesn't need to be as exact. The downside is that for some women a bralette doesn't provide enough support (no wire, no padding).
> I'm surprised that these sorts of calculators don't take that into account by having the user first pick their specific "archetype", e.g. from a set of images.
They can't. Unfortunately, until a woman is in a properly sized bra, it's pretty much impossible to actually have the information needed to determine said archetype. It's REALLY hard to visually eye breast roots, especially on larger women, and in addition a lot of the archetypes are relative (for example, knowing if you have short roots means you have to know what a 'average height' or 'tall' root would look like). You also can only tell your archetype while wearing a bra because supported breasts behave differently than breasts au natural.
As an example, I have very, very close-set breasts - I need low gores because when I'm in a bra, there's literally no separation between tissue. However, braless you can't tell this at all - it's an interaction between the wire, fabric tension, and my body. Which is why you need a properly fitting bra to tell: Otherwise the wire isn't sitting in the right place and won't be interacting with the tissue in the same way. And close-set versus wide-set is one of the easier things for a woman to determine on her own.
What about a physics simulation to back into those parameters? Given a front and side image without wearing a bra are there really so many different archetypes that can produce the resulting shape?
So off the top of my (not entirely sober) head at the moment:
- Tall vs. short vs. average height breast root
- Wide vs. narrow vs. average width breast root
- Breast root separation (also wide, narrow, average)
- Tissue density and malleability (some women have tissue that can work with a variety of bras whereas some [like me] have tissue that is pretty dense and will resist any shaping efforts by the bra)
- Tissue distribution/Tissue fullness (upper fullness vs. lower fullness for a total of four quadrants): Full upper and shallow bottom [very rare outside of situations like lumpectomies], shallow upper and shallow bottom, shallow upper and fuller bottom, full upper and full bottom.
- Ribcage shape (some women have barrel shaped ribcages or pectus excavatum plus those who have less padding/are on the smaller band size range and therefore no/less fat to smooth out the bumps can have this cause fit issues)
The primary difficulties are the UX/end user complexity problem AND the fact that those different archetypes can produce the same visual or physical results.
For instance, being able to tell if a cup is too big or too tall or whether a cup is too closed on top or too small can be really difficult even for humans. Does the gore not tack because the breasts are too close-set or because the cup is too small? Etc.
And yeah, images not in a bra would be useless because there are literally physics forces acting on the tissue when it's in a bra versus not that change things. For example, pendulous breasts would not scan as having any upper fullness at all, but when the root is supported, upper fullness is possible and therefore needs to be considered in fit. There's information that's necessary to a proper fit which literally cannot be gathered from a nude look/scan.
From a UX/customer service perspective, most women don't understand the sizing chart. Adding extra variables isn't going to work well, especially without hard and fast rules to follow. Even asking women to wear a well fitting bra at home won't solve basic user error problems such as women forgetting to scoop and swoop all their tissue in.
I read this out to my girlfriend (as well as a few other responses of yours in this thread) and had to ask for clarification on a lot of the terminology (roots, tack, gore - ha, neat!). She designs and sews all of their products herself, and helps some women with fitting but she isn't a bra fitter. We both found your comments very interesting. Thank you!
So a physics simulation would need to include the shape and density distribution of the breasts. Hypothetically, it would then be able to simulate dozens of bras with reference sizes and how this would look (i.e. an image output). At this point an expert system trained on images of good vs bad fit could probably visually recognize common problems and return a few of the best bras. This is probably oversimplifying, and it's already too complicated to actually be done, so I think it's not the right approach.
Do you see any aspect of bra fitting which _would_ benefit from technology? i.e. some kind of specialized fitting tool
Bra fitting, no. It's a surprisingly hands on process (one reason I picked it up first as a side hustle was 'oooh automation proof work').
Bra production absolutely. There are certain markets of women who are almost completely neglected when it comes to well fitting bras. Large band small bust (40+ A-D) are completely screwed by the good bra brands. Same for women who are under a 28 or 30 band. The economics just don't make sense for the brands to produce those sizes. Also bras for elderly women or the disabled that have more hooks, rely less on tension, etc. and basically accommodate for mobility or sight limitations.
Where I think tech could be very helpful is marrying JIT manufacturing with CNC fabric cutting to produce single bras or small batches for this economic 'long tail'. Think 1 hour glasses stores where you could go in, get fit, and just have one made if you happen to be one of the neglected demographics.
This is one of the very few comments I enter without reading the submission at all. These bra calculators are useless! Or, expressed more articulately, they may be used as a very rough starting point but are of little help.
The consensus is that a large percentage of women go through their lives wearing the wrong sized bra, generally one too small for them. The best way to find a right size, it is suggested, is to go to a large store with a professional fitter and get yourself sized
It is amazing that no good advanced solution has been deployed at scale for this problem, e.g. using 3D scanner booths to get an accurate scan and suggest a size. 3D scanning was used years ago for shoe sizing but that’s an area where the problem size is much smaller.
A lot of "professional fitters" are just salespeople who were made to watch a 15-minute training video from corporate - and the resulting measurements are about as good as one would expect. They still try to do a decent job and will try to get the customer into something which isn't terrible, but often the stores carry a very restricted size range so the product the customer needs is not something the store has. A commonly seen trick is to just randomly add 3-4 inches to the band size, which moves a lot of women into the 32/34/36 band range.
If you want to get a good fitting you have to go to small boutique shops - easily identified by them carrying brands like Curvy Kate, Ewa Michalak, Freya, and Cleo.
Going to a store like Victoria's Secret and asking for a 28J is just going to make the poor salesperson's head explode.
As to 3D scanning: Hell No. There's no way you are getting women to voluntarily have detailed images of their breasts taken by random store people, no matter how much you promise that it is "totally safe and privacy-conscious".
I think that is generally regarded as very bad advice, unless you're at a specialty bra store that probably isn't in a mall.
The "professional fitter" will helpfully fit you into whatever sizes they carry, and not all brands are the same. Cup size and shape vary a lot.
As the more upvoted comments above, the subreddit /r/abrathatfits is the place to start - most horror stories start as "I went to Random Department Store/Victoria Secret/etc. and they told me X"
Moreover, if you do any sort of clothes shopping, the individual variance between items of the exact same size/style/color is very wide.
For pants, inseam and waist sizes that are literally two of the same pants grabbed off the shelf, have more than a 1" disparity between them.
Also true for bras, even if the size is the same.
And even worse than that is comparing sizes across brands - 34x30 is not the same with every brand, or every pair of pants, and a 36B isn't a 36B everywhere.
Not being a bra-wearer I'm not really qualified to comment, but watching my wife struggle with this over the years it seems like there's really nothing to substitute for trying on bras yourself.
My wife has tried on all sorts of bras, and these calculators, and went to a local upscale store that specializes in bra fitting, and none of them really substituted for just trying them on and finding a brand that she feels comfortable in. Even the professional fitting resulted in a bra she didn't really like after wearing it for a couple of weeks. When she finds a bra she likes, she buys more of them while she can, and tries to repair them if something breaks.
As an outsider these kinds of calculators and fitters seem well-intended but off, like they can give you a good starting point but in the end it's your comfort. It seems like there's too many factors involved, and too many sizing systems, interpretations of those systems, fabric factors, underwire support issues, etc. to really know.
Measurements are only a starting point. Breasts have wildly varying shapes with wildly different support requirements - not to mention plain ol' personal preference. Every brand will have their own specific construction style and fit, with variations between different product lines and sometimes even individual products.
You can't fit a pumpkin into a coke bottle, even if they have the same volume. Breasts aren't any different, so you need the right bra size and shape.
I did a bit of a deep dive ~4 years ago because my daughter was having problems finding a bra that fit.
My takeaway: There ISNO "bra size". There are two to three different systems (IIRC a more common one based off "victorian shirt size").
To get a good first approximation, find the bras that tell you how they are sized and give you instructions on measuring. You will probably need these measurements: under bust, bust, over bust, leaning bust. From there, you may need to try "sister sizes", where you go up a band size and down a cup size or vice versa. IOW, if you measure 38C, you might want to try a 36D and a 40B as well.
As other have mentioned, abrathatfits is well regarded.
Yeah, early in our relationship I took my SO to a bra specialty shop, as I was certain she wasn't 80 (36US) in circumference based on my previous partners.
Turned out the right size was 65 (30US), she just hadn't found a large enough cup size at the big chains she'd been shopping at less than 80 (36US).
However, even armed with the appropriate size, we'd still end up testing like 10+ bras when we went shopping for a new one before finding a good one.
Some brands just didn't have any cups that fit her breasts well. They might for example have enough volume per se, but perhaps the top of the cup would "dig in" in midway up her breasts, forming a visible line. Or the cups would be too narrow, so hear breast would "overflow" on the sides. With others there were size variations that lead to poor fit.
After several years of my wife struggling to find a properly fitting bra (with several "professional" fittings) I decided to research it myself, found this community, and was able to help her fine a bra that fits properly. Highly recommended.
Most bra stores simply don't carry larger bra sizes, and will "fit" you into whatever they happen to carry and want to sell you.
End of the day personal fitting is the best choice. Unfortunately they only have 3 stores in the US (Chicago, Atlanta, NYC) but Rigby & Peller is awesome. Even if you're on vacation in one of those cities, worth the stop. Dillards, if in your area, is also a solid choice. They do a hell of a job. If you're in another locale, google bra shops/fitters. They're usually small boutiques. You want to find some place that carries brands such as Elomi, Goddess, Panache, La Leche, Empreinte, Royce, Va Bien, etc. It's not going to be cheap, but you will never know your boobs could be so happy.
Yes. Ask what brands they carry and ask what brands they carry to cater to different sizes.
And if you want them cheaply, you can learn which cuts fit you and look for old, out of season bras on eBay or Amazon. For instance, I'm a fan of the Panache Ava and know that if I can snag an old color in a 30G or 28GG it'll fit fine. Certain cuts are 'continuity' which means they're produced season after season and sometimes there are single runs of odd colors but the bra is the same.
Breasts are shaped differently, and cups hold volume. Measuring without a bra won't always capture the volume either, especially for breasts that sag a bit or flatten out some when not wearing a bra (very common for larger breasts). Breasts tend to simply "sit" differently in a bra than without - more mass in front of the arm, for example.
Even a poorly fitted bra will give a better starting point than measuring braless.
And really, that's what this is: A starting point. Go with the best starting point that is available to you. You already are going to try on all of the ones that might work, you might as well narrow that down.
One problem is likely that manufactures cut the material differently so the cut/fit differs.
It's like buying a pair of jeans from five companies in the same waist size and leg lengths. Some will be tight around the waist while another fits well.
Indeed, but they do say "The calculation result is only a starting point. A professional fitting or trying on bras to see which sizes work best is recommended."
they don't loosen over the day, but your body does and makes it feel tighter toward the end of the day. more like a ring than a shoe
they do loosen over time. most bras have 3-4 hooks, you start on the loosest and the only reasons you use the tightest is you got a bad fit or it's near time to throw it out
* And if you're buxom? Forget it. You have to own an array or be in pain.*
If you are buxom enough, you might not be able to afford or find an array of bras. If I buy in my size - generally around an H cup - bras easily range from $80-$120 each. I always have to buy a specialty bra. I had never found my size in an actual store in the US: I had to move to Europe for that.
All that said: Once I was able to find bras in my size, I did find that many are well-made, they fit and aren't rubbing nor digging in, and wearing them through the day hasn't really been an issue. At least, until they are wearing out and needing replaced.
My wife is a 28J in US sizes. Panache is your friend. Amazon Wardrobe will let you get up to 6 at a time and return whatever doesn't fit right. At least the situation is improving--she used to have to get custom only.
I clicked on this thinking it was about a digital computing device of the size of a bra. My thoughts spun up the idea of a digital spy secretly wearing a supercomputer woven into her clothes.
When I was a kid, I couldn't get past Leisure Suit Larry's adult checker because I couldn't answer the bust size questions... This would have been useful :-)
TBH I could probably not get past that even as father of 2 kids, though I would need to know specific questions, but I remember bra sizes are extremely complicated.
Years ago I built the same kind of app for Windows Phone 8. I can't find any reference online anymore, though I still have the git repo.
It was motivated by my girlfriend stating that it's hard to understand one's size in the various systems that are in parallel use, at least in parts of Europe. Worst part is that some systems have weird overlaps where not only they use the same "alphabet", but also the homonymous sizes partially cover the same range, but don't match exactly. Therefore it's impossible to exactly convert between sizes, and they should be derived from raw measurements.
No, because the tension in the fabric of the band is instrumental in producing the support, and a fully adjustable bra would have varying fabric tension which means varying force so it wouldn't work. This is why straps can be adjustable: The tension produced by the straps isn't instrumental to the physics of the bra.
This blog post [0] goes into a bit more detail on the physics of it all if you're interested:
It's possible to make bras that don't rely on tension - Empriente does it - but they're insanely expensive at over $200 per bra. (Compared to 15-20 dollars at Target/Walmart or 60-100 at a decent boutique).
There are still issues, though, because you need to consider that while a 30FF and a 38D are the same size in terms of tissue volume, the distribution of that tissue differs a lot. The wires need to be placed differently even if the same wire is used, so the wire itself would need to move which would be very difficult.
Not really, because the cup size based on volume. It’s not just a matter of adjusting the straps and chest band.
So, you can have two women with the same total bust measurement, but very different chest/rib measurements (and therefore very different breast volume).
And as breast get larger/heavier, the bra construction has to change to provide support.
I’ve had this business idea for years but I would be torn apart in todays world if I tried to launch it:
Build an ML model trained on actual images of women’s breasts and bras that are verified to fit them well. Once the core model is built a separate, a smaller size on-device model is built to be the model users actually interact with. A user submits an image of breasts and is told right away which bras in which sizes would be the best for them. Photos containing faces would be blocked from being uploaded. No photos would leave the device unless a user opted in to do so in order to help improve the model.
Monetization is straightforward: affiliate fees for directing users to buy bras at retailers, plus sponsored placements in search results at some point.
Biggest concern is how to come up with the initial data set, but I’m fairly certain there’s a solution there.
Am I crazy or is this as obvious as it seems to me? ThirdLove sucks, as do calculators like this.
I'm not a woman, but do have over a decade of experience looking at pictures of breasts.
To be honest with you, I don't think it would be possible to properly parameterise a boob based on nothing but still images. They all have different centres of mass, different elasticities, different shapes and different textures. Not to mention that different women engage in different activities that require different levels of support.
You might be able to get a fit using 3D scanners plus some sort of standardised jiggle generator, but by that stage you might as well just have a skilled consultant hand you a few different pairs to try on.
The calculator seems off. If I enter e.g. the default values of 95/85cm for bust and band size, I get a result of 75E (EU size), but it should be 85B. Seems as it uses 75cm for the band size. I played with the values: the entered band size will be reduced by 10cm and then calculated (correctly).
Much like wearing a suit off the shelf vs tailored, it makes a big difference for some and little for another. I'm medium all day so everything fits, but my tailored suits fit noticeably perfect. Seeing that a bra is to hold a certain VOLUME but also within a certain SHAPE that both vary greatly from one woman to another, and vary within a woman depending on cycle etc, I don't see how any manufacturer can create a fleet to satisfy anyone. Get a few tailored bras and be done with it! Assuming that service exists.
They can't. That's why good bra stores carry bras from a variety of different manufacturers.
Getting bras tailored would probably ideal, but it is a very challenging problem. Men's suits have generally the same overall shape, so getting it tailored would usually result in fairly minor modifications to a generic template. However, breasts vary wildly in shape and size - and your torso isn't exactly one-size-fits-all either. I would not be surprised if you ended up needing dozens of "templates", so you'd essentially be working from scratch every time.
Yes, correct. Almost from scratch each time. Maybe there's a level of effort and complexity that I'm not seeing, but it's thin cloth stitched to fit a mold.
I've read recently that dentists no longer need to get a physical imprint / make a form in order to produce a (anti-clenching etc.) mouth guard - they can just do some sort of 3D scan of the teeth (can't remember if it was video- or X-ray based). Couldn't similar technology be used for bra fitting? (Though I imagine it would be complicated by e.g. breast size depending on the menstrual cycle phase, etc.). A coarse-grained "structured-light" 3D body scan should be quick and convenient to do.
It would be a bit like using LiDAR and photogrammetry to measure lumber for furniture making. It's not that it wouldn't work, it's just that you can ask any builder and they'll tell you that it's easier to use a tape measure. But the problem isn't really eyeballing vs measuring. It's what's in stock.
The economics of size availability is the problem. Think of a lumber yard that only keeps square lumber (1x1s, 2x2, 4x4s) in stock and tells customers they can laminate two 2x2s with wood glue to get a 2x4 or split a 4x4 in half. Yes, you can, but it would be great if the 2x4s we're kept in stock.
Now multiply the problem across band and cup size. Sister sizes are a way to project a two-dimensional inventory problem into one dimension and that's the root of the issue.
It's not unlike the average cockpit problem[1], but applied to bras. The first person to make an adjustable cup size bra that's comfortable and fashionable will make a fortune.
It is video. The handheld portion is shaped roughly like a pen, with a cable attached to a computer & monitor. The lens end is rubbed across your teeth and a 3D image is made.
It had to be rubbed rather firmly against my teeth & gums. Doing so against breasts would be painful. I've had rather severe gynecomastia since I was 11. In my 30s, I'd sometimes wear a bra when doing sports. I wore a 38B/36C (depending on the brand of bra).
Almost nobody needs a bra (as in their health won't suffer if they don't wear one; there are exceptions like large busted women whose skin rubs and will create sores). A lot of small-busted women either don't wear bras or just opt for tanks/camisoles. (Or just wear the wrong size because they don't need the support, they just need to show they're 'fitting in' and wearing what they 'should'.)
What lead me to think there might be some occasions where a bra is "needed" would be during sports, but as I said I'm entirely unequipped to make any kind of knowledgable comment in that regard and it's just that "sports bras" are a thing that gives me that impression.
For health reasons, they're not needed. For comfort/exercising viability, it's going to depend on the person and the exercise. Most smaller breasted women aren't going to need a proper sports bra. Exceptions are women who are nursing, trans women on HRT, and adolescents whose breasts are still growing. For those populations, it's normal for any kind of jiggling to be painful.
Most large breasted women do prefer/need a sports bra to prevent things like skin chafing and grossness that can result from prolonged skin to skin contact + sweat.
The numbers in that table are the numbers from the bra sizing system, not necessarily actual measurements. The EU system for some reason uses band size numbers about 10 less than the actual underbust size.
> Our Sizing App, which can either be downloaded as an application to your mobile device or used without a download through our website, may transmit your digital photos and measurements to a third-party sizing provider together with an anonymous identification number solely for the purpose of analyzing the photos to extract your body measurements to provide sizing advice.
Yeah, that would be a huge NO, what could go wrong with app collecting user breast photos, which can be matched with user phone number and also sending them to 3rd party.
I didn't say they send it within sizing app, I said they can match it with data (breast photos) from the sizing app which they send to third party (probably should use there comma after "number" to distinguish them), since they collect these (under other circumstances):
What Categories of Personal Information Do We Collect?
We may collect Personal Information when you visit or use our Services.
"Personal Information" is information that can be reasonably linked to an identifiable individual, such as:
Name
Postal address (including billing and shipping addresses)
Telephone number
Email address
Credit and/or debit card number
Information about your purchases
Other information, such as your size and your interests, when you voluntarily provide this information to us
So they actually created an app which intentionally collects images of women in their underwear? That sounds like a company-ending ticking time bomb to me: any data leak or hack or vulnerability at all, and you will forever lose all trust.
Their selling point is that you can get rid of the "measuring tape and bra quizzes", but the demonstration video clearly shows that you still have to answer quite a few questions for the thing to work properly. Not to mention that the measurements it gives cannot possibly be accurate if they instruct you to take them while wearing a bra, and the poses shown seem to be more applicable to measuring generic things like your waistline than your bra size.
Honestly, it sounds to me like they were too busy figuring out whether they could to stop and think a minute whether they should.
This is probably one of the more surprising front page HN posts I've seen on here. Didn't think I'd see anything woman focused especially if it wasn't looking for capital!
Theres a bunch, but ultimately its a marketing and knowledge issue. There are okay calculators but its alot more like glasses, where you need to wear one to know how you feel
I read the title of this post and, being stereotypically male, clicked to investigate. However, I was greatly encouraged to find that many/most of the commenters seem to be bra-users, rather than other stereotypical male hackers.
We need more women in engineering, just as we need more diversity of all kinds in all professions. Constraining people of apparent type X to profession Y limits us all. The more variety we have (of background, attitudes, abilities, upbringing) the better we will be able to solve the world's problems. And, the more interesting the world will be.
https://www.abrathatfits.org/calculator.php
The biggest problem is that bra sizes are a measurement of volume, not just circumference. Stores will typically use a formula that lumps you into similar “sister sizes” so they don’t have to carry as many sizes. For example, a 32DD is very similar to a 40A, so most stores don’t carry 40 and push everyone towards 32.
Which is the same as going to a restaurant which gives you soup in a tall glass because it holds nearly as much soup as a bowl.