I don't know if I would put too much trust in this list. From what I know about NYC salaries - 10 years freelancing at all kinds of companies, from startups to corporate behemoths - the numbers seem about $20k low, on average. PHP, Ruby and mobile devs that I know personally make $120+ (both freelancing and full time), more on Wall Street. Sales engineers make significantly more.
I wonder what the sample size was here. I noticed most of the salaries end in numbers that indicate a denominator of 3 or 4, such as 250 or 667. If that's really how small the sample set is, I'm not surprised that so many have seen the numbers as being low.
I'm also curious about the source of these numbers. I don't think I've seen a salary survey like this that's ever seemed anything but lower than what I know the market to be. That makes sense if employers are providing the numbers, as they'd like to pay less than they are currently paying for talent.
It's a placement agency so, yeah, don't fully trust those numbers.
Then again, you'd have to think that those numbers represent the sort of market that would use staffing agencies. So, if you want to come work for a financial titan, you can get more $$$ via direct negotiations / interviews. However, if you think you're coming here to work for an interactive media or B2B startup, then forget these numbers altogether. Those jobs pay everything from low market salaries to a cash/equity mix. We'll never get a clear picture of that market because, IRT insiders, it's in no one's best interest to talk about it.
Once again: Averages without variance have no meaning.
This is why, at school, you were taught how to calculate averages at the same time as calculating variance. The variance provides an indication of data spread and the two belong together, like fish and chips.
One without the other means incorrect inferences are more likely. Like here.
Oh, I'm sure they are counting on incorrect inferences. You know, using the super-senior dev's $250k salary to mask the introductory salary of $30k and stuff like that...
For those of you who live in New York City, what sort of standard of living do these salaries represent? Would one be comfortably be able to lease a 3 bedroom apartment within walking distance of work, in a neighborhood with good schools?
Your work would likely be in Manhattan, maybe in Brooklyn. A 2 bedroom apartment within walking distance of the business districts in midtown or downtown runs about $4,000 a month. 3 bedrooms are available on the Upper East Side, but at that range prices rise exponentially. The only good public schools in the city are the magnet schools.
Obviously $8,000 on an apartment isn't supportable on $100k. The compromise most people make is to commute from New Jersey or Westchester (45 minutes to an hour, depending) on the excellent train network. If you're coming from Westchester, this is a very comfortable commute on relatively new trains with WiFi, etc. Schools in these places are very good, and leasing a 3 bedroom house in that range is very doable.
Thanks very much for all the replies. So 3 bedrooms basically doesn't even exist, but 1 and 2 is available. No answers on the school issues.
Is it uncommon then for developers living in New York City to have children? If you have kids, they all go in a single bedroom it seems and there's no room for a home office since there's no third bedroom.
If one is single I can see how it all works, but for those of us with kids I am not so clear. Some have mentioned elsewhere in the discussion that the listed salaries were around $20,000 less than realistic. Even with that, it is still substantially less than I make now, and we have a 4 bedroom with enough land for my wife to grow some vegetables and have a couple fruit trees. I've been contacted from recruiters a few times seeking to attract me to Manhattan. They say it is the new tech mecca. I haven't followed up though or priced property in the area. Looking here though, it sounds like talent would take a significant, perhaps monumental salary and lifestyle hit moving to the area. Just trying to understand how people make it work. Clearly it has a strong draw for many people.
"Better schools" pretty much correlate directly with "pricier neighborhoods" in NYC. The elementary school in my neighborhood is fine, but I plan to be actively involved in my 3yr olds education. I don't love the situation, but I'm not too worried about it.
At the high school levels there are the magnet schools, which your kids could potentially attend regardless of the neighborhood that you live in, but getting into those is somewhat merit-based.
It's a pretty massive lifestyle change, but there are crazy positives. Everything I need is within walking distance of my apartment. When my daughter goes to the playground, it is packed with other children for her to play with. There's a great library system, and there are plenty of child-friendly events to attend. From a professional standpoint, there are always meetups and events going on that are but a subway ride away.
I used to live in NJ and never thought I would like living in NYC, but now that I have a daughter I can't think of any other place that I'd want her to grow up in.
Most of the developers I know are twenty-somethings. Some of the older devs have kids, but they usually don't live in Manhattan proper. Long Island City, Astoria, Brooklyn, New Jersey, etc, are much preferred. I know only one dev who lives in Manhattan.
Thank you for the specific details. It sounds like those with children just all live in other cities and states. In places I have lived most of my life states are usually a bit farther apart, so the idea of commuting daily from another state sounds strange, but I did do that for a while when I worked in DC. The commute was far from pleasant though!
So regarding commuting, what sort of commute is involved for say the people living in New Jersey who work at a tech firm in New York City. Can it be done in 30 minutes? Is there a train that goes straight from one to the other or does one have to drive to a station first, park, etc. How far a walk is it on average from the nearest subway station exist to a tech firm office. Trying to get an idea how many minutes a day the commute would be. Thanks.
I'm a developer with children in NYC. If you don't want to live in another state, Brooklyn and Queens are fairly common options for tech folks who work in Manhattan.
Commuting from Brooklyn (which isn't technically another city) to where I work in Manhattan takes about 45 minutes. That includes the walks to and from the subway. It's a quite pleasant commute...I live far enough away that I basically always get a seat on the subway and can comfortably read on my way into work.
If you live closer to Manhattan, the rents go up and the commute gets shorter, but you're less likely to get a seat every morning. Standing isn't that big of a deal, but it makes it tougher to read sometimes.
I'd say 45 minutes each way is pretty easy. 30 minutes and under can be tougher and more expensive to pull off.
Walks to/from the Subway in Manhattan are typically less than 10 minutes, almost no matter where the office is. There's a lot of tech in the Union Square area, which has a ton of subway access.
In Brooklyn, depending on where you live, it can be a bit more of a walk to the subway, but I've never had more than a 12 minute walk and today I can do it in 5.
Well, it can vary. I can only speak to my own experience. I live just outside the city in Jersey. It's a bus to Port Authority Bus Terminal (located on 42nd and 8th), then a subway ride to work. Total time: 30min. In rush hour: 45min. That's why flex time is nice. Other places in New Jersey you can take the PATH train. That's 15 minutes, and if you work in the Financial District, it drops you off right at the World Trade Center. Usually you wouldn't even need to drive in New Jersey if you're in Jersey City or Hoboken or even as far north as Bergen, if you position yourself near a bus stop.
Living in NYC with children and we have a very comfortable lifestyle. We live in Astoria, Queens, which is just a short (25mins) subway ride to where I work in midtown. I don't believe anyone in their right mind, in our profession, will be living in Manhattan with children. (certainly no technologist that I know of, and I have met dozens throughout the years). But the big advantage is that, as others mentioned, you can live nearby in Queens or Brooklyn, (or NJ/Long Island) and be within a very short commute to work. Rents will be a lot cheaper - we pay 1,600$/mth for a large two bedroom which is actually an entire floor of a house. I have to admit we were lucky there - but there are enough options if you do a proper search.
There are a lot of tech events in the city, and a lot of other kinds of events and conferences. But the biggest draw factor for me when moving to NYC was the sheer number of companies that are packed together in a relatively small space. This is truly heaven for a technologist who is consulting, because you will have business constantly - especially if you are on top of your game; I can attest that you can make and save a lot of money like that. There are a lot of full-time jobs as well, some which pay well and are 9-5, others that require more hours and pay a lot, particularly in the finance sector. Be careful with startups that require a lot of hours and don't pay particularly well though - you won't get a good deal by working for one in NYC, due to how they compare to all other options I mentioned.
Finally, the other cool thing here if you are looking to start your own company, is that you can meet people to partner with - again due to the large number of people within the area.
The crowd living in the business area of NYC is skewed towards young singles. Couples with kids tend to live in other areas such as further north or in New Jersey or Brooklyn, where better housing is available.
I don't know anything about the schools in NYC, so can't answer there.
School situation in NYC is quite complicated. Several things to consider:
1. Private schools cost around $30k a year. However, this price deferential vis-à-vis free public schools is built into property prices so that you are not really "saving" $30k if you live in a magnet school district. This is further complicated by...
2. The vast divide between have's and have-not's and the socialist city rules that attempt to mitigate this divide by sending poor kids to magnet schools. This means that even if you are paying through the nose to live in a good neighborhood (via taxes, or property prices, or rent prices), it is not a guarantee that your kids will go to the magnet school. In fact, the only way to get in is to place your child on the waiting lists within the first months of their life. Even if you are in luck and your kids do get slotted into a good school...
3. These schools are dominated by jaded, entitled urban sophisticates mixed with super intense, tunnel-vision type A's. At least half are on daily pharmaceuticals to help them juggle extremely ambitious workloads and/or social calendars.
IMHO, New York is great for single guys and problematic for everyone else. Once we had a baby, we've made the decision to move, even though financially we could have made it work. The trade offs are just not worth it.
Lastly, if you are pricing properties, don't forget to look at monthly expenses. It's common to pay around $1,500 per month in condo/coop fees on top of your mortgage, and that's for a 1-bedroom.
> It's common to pay around $1,500 per month in condo/coop fees on top of your mortgage, and that's for a 1-bedroom.
Maybe in Manhattan, I suppose. That's a pretty broad brush for the rest of NYC. I pay less than $700 in co-op maintenance for my 2-bedroom in Brooklyn.
For the uninitiated, those fees go towards property taxes (which co-op owners don't otherwise pay), some utilities, things like elevator maintenance, groundskeeping, doorman, building superintendent, etc. If the building has an outstanding mortgage that has to be paid down, that comes out of there as well.
I noticed a bunch of people doing the math on a 100k/year salary for a 3br. Presumably, if you need a 3br it's because you have kids and need to give them each their own room.
Is everyone assuming the other partner won't help with anything financially? You can come pretty close to the 4-5k/month number for a 3br if your SO/partner is also making ~100k/year. If you're single with kids, or trying to have 1 stay at home 1 working, it'll be much harder, but it's entirely possible to afford if you have two people who are both working.
transportation is marked 127.5% of average US cost. I wonder if it's from the price of gas and knowing that people don't really drive to work as much in manhattan.
Yeah, these results seem a bit off. ~$100 gets you an MTA 30-day pass. That's probably less than gas and maintenance for your average monthly commute elsewhere.
3 bedrooms are definitely rare but there are pockets of them around town. I had a 3.5 - 4 bedroom near Columbia off Central Park & 109th and it was huge and affordable ($3300 I believe and one block from the subway). If you're hunting for one, I'd start up there if having the Park as your front yard floats your boat.
Thanks very much, so around $60,000 a year gets one a three bedroom. Salaries around $100,000-$120,000 before taxes, after all taxes taken into account (federal, FICA, state, county, local, sales) about $50k-$60k take home, so it sounds like a 3 bedroom is basically not possible.
These numbers seem low. But as for cost of living, don't live in New York itself. The longer your commute, the more you save. Time is the trade-off, of course. If you get some partial work-from-home, you're golden. I have a fairly nice sized (1200 square foot) apartment within 30 minutes by bus and train from work.
I ran some numbers to compare my current perks (NJ, less than 10 minutes drive, lunch at home) vs possible offer in NYC (about an hour of train and subway combined) and figured I'd need to ask 10k more to just to have same amount of money left after expenses for commute and lunching out. And I'm already making more that Ruby people from the OP list.
This obviously doesn't include the financial industry. I know for a fact the average salary range is higher than this. In some of the medium sized firms, not even the large ones. Not to mention Perl is still a highly valued language in this industry which wasn't even included here.
I hope with "Mobile/Web Engineers" they don't actually mean native iOS / Android development, because it would be a shame to see them lower than everybody else.
The link in the article to the most poachable players sure is an interesting one... never seen names and numbers called out so bluntly - their employers must thrilled. (Oh well I guess thats part of the game...)
A lot of these jobs are not entry-level, but I believe that jobs in CA (in the Bay Area) have equal or higher entry-level salaries. Can anyone confirm that people in tech jobs are paid more in Silicon Valley than in NYC?
80k is a very respectable salary here in Sweden. Hell, I know plenty of programmer working for 40k a year. In the US it seems like the norm for recompense is 100k+. What gives?
I'm an American, in America. 80k is a very respectable salary here in America too, and I know programmers working for 40k a year.
The United States is a very large, very socioeconomically diverse country. It is after all, iirc, at least as large as all of Europe. So no, not all American devs are paid that way.
Beta beat mostly reports on the NY startup scene. From casual observations .net doesn't seem to be that popular in up and coming technology shops these days. Just a thought, totally inconclusive.
Note that it is an average. If all your friends are making $120,000 per year, and all dsolomon's friends are making $50,000 per year, the average income is going to somewhere between both of your expectations.
