If you’re correct that Snapchat etc. can be used to search for nearby queer people in the same way as Grindr, then that only goes to undermine your argument that teens will somehow be safer on one than the other. However, AFAIK, none of the apps you mention make it possible to search by sexual orientation. This makes them fairly clunky as a means of meeting queer people in your local area – especially if you are not in a large urban area.
The irony here is that you seem to basically agree with Roth. That is, you are fine with gay teens meeting each other via apps, but think that these apps should be age appropriate. For some reason you seem to think that Grindr is super scary, even though people do the exact same stuff on it (chat and share photos) that they do on Snapchat, Insta, or any number of other apps used by teens. An age-appropriate version of Grindr, which is what Roth was suggesting, would probably be *safer* than many existing apps. Snapchat, for example, will happily let you send nudes or other explicit imagery that can could quite easily be automatically blocked in the majority of cases.
By the way, if you think that Snapchat isn't full of 'men explicitly looking for hookups', I have news for you...
> By the way, if you think that Snapchat isn't full of 'men explicitly looking for hookups', I have news for you...
There are lots of blokes who like porn on Twitter and on Pornhub but to say that they're the same because of that would be an enormous stretch.
> An age-appropriate version of Grindr, which is what Roth was suggesting,
No, Roth suggested that Grindr allow minors and be made age appropriate, without giving any details of how that would work. Those two things, like Twitter and Pornhub, are not the same thing.
> If you’re correct that Snapchat etc. can be used to search for nearby queer people in the same way as Grindr,
Again, not the same. You can find what you want via search but apps like Grindr and Tinder are optimised for meeting people nearby for hookups and dating.
> that only goes to undermine your argument that teens will somehow be safer on one than the other
What is the likelihood of finding an adult gay man looking for a hookup on Twitter vs Grindr? If you're on Grindr, can others find you too, and is that easier than on Twitter?
> Roth suggested that Grindr allow minors and be made age appropriate, without giving any details of how that would work.
Sure, he didn’t give any details of how it would work, but it’s not that hard to imagine what kind of changes you’d make (e.g. automatic blocking of explicit images, stricter moderation of language on profiles…). This was just one paragraph of a thesis, so I’m not sure what your point is re the lack of details.
> apps like Grindr and Tinder are optimised for meeting people nearby for hookups and dating.
Yes! That was exactly my point. Gay teens want to date just like straight teens do, but it’s less easy for them to find suitable people on regular social networks.
>You can find what you want via search [on Snap]
What makes you so sure? I assume you don’t spend your free time searching for gay teenagers in your neighborhood on Snapchat, so what is your basis for this assertion?
> What is the likelihood of finding an adult gay man looking for a hookup on Twitter vs Grindr?
I don’t know about twitter, but it’s certainly pretty high on Snapchat or Insta. A restricted version of Grindr could potentially impose much stricter limits on under 18s interacting with adults than any of the major social networks do.
> This was just one paragraph of a thesis, so I’m not sure what your point is re the lack of details.
A thesis isn't somewhere anyone worries about needing to cut words to fit a limit, quite the opposite, and yet he leaves us hanging with something that sounds questionable. Much like his tweets, that one about getting a crying infant mixed up with the sound of porn comes to mind. Defending that is not a hill I'd like to die on.
> > You can find what you want via search [on Snap]
> What makes you so sure?
Roth says so:
> While gay youth-oriented chat rooms and social networking services were available in the early 2000s, these services have largely fallen by the wayside, in favor of general-purpose platforms like Twitter, Facebook, and Snapchat.
There's a reason why the majority of young gays are using those instead, just as the rest of us use general networks too.
> > What is the likelihood of finding an adult gay man looking for a hookup on Twitter vs Grindr?
> I don’t know about twitter, but it’s certainly pretty high on Snapchat or Insta.
It seems the search works okay then. What is the relative chance you'll find a teenager vs an adult when searching for a teenager? (On a service that is for general users vs one stocked with over 18s)
> A restricted version of Grindr
Just why? If I knew some straight kids that were finding it hard to date, my advice to them would not be "hey, perhaps you should try adult hookup apps", or upon finding out that children like to sneak into adult spaces "you know what, we should just make it safer for them". No, they should stay out of adult spaces and adults that argue for their introduction should be questioned as to what on Earth they are thinking.
"You know that place where guys and gals go to meet?"
"Like clubs?"
"Yeah. You know that sometimes there's underage girls there"
"Of course. Got to be careful."
"You know what we should do to keep them safe, let them in!"
Try saying that amongst any group of blokes I know and you'll get called a paedo immediately. Maybe jokingly, maybe not, but no one's writing a thesis about it and expecting to get away with it. Except for academics, apparently.
Youth clubs are a thing, no? So I think your analogy makes exactly the opposite of your intended point. We do provide analogues of adult clubs for young people so that they can meet each other in a safer environment.
The thesis wasn’t about creating dating apps for queer teenagers, so that’s why he doesn’t say much on the subject. Remember that this paragraph was picked out by people desperately trolling for anything that could be used to smear him. You seem to suggest at several points that this thesis is entirely about young queer people (“no-one’s writing a thesis about it”), but you’ve been misled on that point.
The rest of your post is frankly too much of a mess of mischaracterization to respond to. (To take only the most egregious example, I think you must recognize that Roth does not say that Snapchat is good for finding other queer people in one’s local area in the section you quote.) You’re becoming so oddly insistent on Snapchat’s utility as a location-aware queer hookup/dating app that you’re even undermining your own implied conspiracy theory. Why would Roth even care about luring young gay guys onto Grindr if he can find legions of them in his neighborhood on Snap? Snap already allows under 18s.
> Youth clubs are a thing, no? So I think your analogy makes exactly the opposite of your intended point
In my analogy, Roth is arguing that we allow children into adult nightclubs because they sneak in, not that we have separate clubs for them.
And it's I, not Roth, who already argued for "youth clubs". To quote myself “If there's a real need for this, someone can build it.” He makes no such pronouncement.
There's only 3 choices for where to put young people:
1. general apps
2. adult-only apps
3. youth-only apps
He made the case for 2, I'm anti-2 and suggest 1 or 3. Very simple, try to keep up.
> The thesis wasn’t about creating dating apps for queer teenagers, so that’s why he doesn’t say much on the subject.
I don't care. He writes just enough to be questionable and not enough to be defensible.
> You seem to suggest at several points that this thesis is entirely about young queer people (“no-one’s writing a thesis about it”), but you’ve been misled on that point.
As I wrote above, I have a copy of the thesis, I haven't been misled, you've just continued to display a wilful inability to read my comments.
> The rest of your post is frankly too much of a mess of mischaracterization to respond to.
And yet you do. This will be fun and ironic.
> You’re becoming so oddly insistent on Snapchat’s utility as as a location-aware queer hookup/dating app
That's weird because I've barely mentioned Snapchat. I've mentioned it once myself, and as a general app, not as "as a location-aware queer hookup/dating app". You have have mentioned it 10 times. Hence, every other time I've mentioned it has been quoting you.
Do you actually read the responses you get?
> you’re even undermining your own implied conspiracy theory
We're talking about Roth, a single person, there cannot be a conspiracy. I can see now why you reacted so strangely to the use of "pronouncement". Please, pick up a dictionary and use it.
> Why would Roth even care about luring young gay guys onto Grindr if he can find legions of them in his neighborhood on Snap?
I can think of several reasons why someone sexually interested in under 18s would want that:
- convenience
- self selection by the target demographic
- plausible deniability
- grooming
More difficult on a general app. In addition, when he was in charge of moderating a general app, he suppressed use of the word groomer. So many strange coincidences.
But that would be to miss the point as badly as you are wont to do. The point is, it seems perfectly reasonable to question his pronouncements and behaviour.
> I can think of several reasons why someone sexually interested in under 18s would want [to use Grindr]:
- convenience
- self selection by the target demographic
Great, so you can see its utility for queer teenagers then (who as a general rule are likely to be sexually interested in people around their own age).
As a general rule, all people are statistically more likely to be interested in people of their own age so that general rule is unsurprising.
I can also see the sexual utility for underage girls and boys if they let underage girls and boys into nightclubs but I wouldn't advocate that as nightclubs are adult spaces. Same goes for Grindr and Tinder et al.
Is what you're proposing a common position amongst gay men?
We do let teenagers into nightclubs for other people in the same age group. See e.g. this (admittedly old) article: https://www.cypnow.co.uk/other/article/youth-nightclubs-club... I don't think these sorts of events are particularly popular, but that's more because teenagers don't seem to be especially interested in them rather than because adults object.
>Is what you're proposing a common position amongst gay men?
What is it that you take me to be proposing? Also, whatever it is, how would I know if it's a common position among gay men?
Or is it that you're just dogwhistling "Are all gay men pedos?" – in which case, the answer is no.
The irony here is that you seem to basically agree with Roth. That is, you are fine with gay teens meeting each other via apps, but think that these apps should be age appropriate. For some reason you seem to think that Grindr is super scary, even though people do the exact same stuff on it (chat and share photos) that they do on Snapchat, Insta, or any number of other apps used by teens. An age-appropriate version of Grindr, which is what Roth was suggesting, would probably be *safer* than many existing apps. Snapchat, for example, will happily let you send nudes or other explicit imagery that can could quite easily be automatically blocked in the majority of cases.
By the way, if you think that Snapchat isn't full of 'men explicitly looking for hookups', I have news for you...