People are raising really good points here, but I do find it interesting how negatively this news is being received vs. when Apple said the same thing: https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=31643917
The second most popular top level comment chain is:
> Unless I can back it up and import it into a new device from a competitor, then there is no way I am going to use this unless forced. I do not trust one company anymore.
Which is the same sentiment as this thread. The first comment was just talking about the open standard of Apple's implementation and weakness of 2FA loss/recovery.
Yup - GP made the mistake of treating HN as a single person with a coherent opinion. It's not, and it's extremely tiring and intellectually uninteresting to repeatedly see people doing that.
I agree, but with the following caveat. Sometimes hot takes inspire reflexive reactions from the crowd, reactions that aren't coming from a place of deeply well thought out reasons.
So if you get a mob of people all reacting the same way to something, who, upon examination, have arrived at their conclusion for a smattering of contradictory and inconsistent reasons, it can be a helpful point of information for diagnosing the irrational mob response.
Granted it's not always the case, people get to similar beliefs through different reasons.
But these are two phenomena that exist side by side and there are times when it's necessary and helpful to be able to diagnose the first.
Your GP did not treat HN as a single person, they are simply pointing out population trends. And these trends are important when analyzing the dynamics of a democratic (upvote-based) content platform
HN is not really a pure "democratic (upvote-based)" system as moderators can (and do) "interfere" in the process - they can remove comments or bring a low ranking comment to the top of the discussion if they feel that a discussion on that might be more interesting for the HN crowd.
No. While I have tried to counter these group think posts you talk about, I only find them interesting because I think it is human nature to do it. I know I do it all the time.
I find that sentiment ironic because I won't use it unless it can't be backed up (the main selling point of 2FA and hardware keys).
If it can be backed up, then a casual bystander/process can also "back up", filch all of your credentials in a few moments with you being none the wiser.
The protocol is open, so I can use one proprietary key from company A, one from company B, and a few open source keys. Keep one for regular use and the rest as backups.
Yeah Google is more evil than all of those other totally non-evil companies that act in your best interests at all times. It's not like other companies have the same incentive to profit from you!
You believing $company is not as bad as Google definitely has nothing to do with marketing!
It's not particularly surprising. Apple has a much better reputation at customer service than Google does – they have actual stores you can walk into.
Now I'm not sure whether they can help you unlock your Apple ID if you prove to them that you're the owner of the account, but I can at least visualize Apple having the scale to do that.
Google on the other hand has a horrendous reputation for locking out people out of their accounts totally and permanently. Of course everyone has concerns about handing all your account login responsibilities to a company with such terrible customer service.
Apple, on the other hand, has terrible problems with working with others that google does not.
Apple will happily tell you that if you want grandma to have a whatever color text bubble, you should buy her an iPhone, to name a recent example, rather than adopt the standard everyone else is using. I bought a Macbook last holiday season and couldn't even set it up until my wife set up her iPhone on my account to activate the laptop. I bought my wife a iWatch last week and briefly thought of getting myself one but you can't use it without an iPhone (they have a "kids" feature where a parent can activate it but it basically has no smarts at that point AFAIK).
So, for making an authentication standard, I'd trust Google over Apple.
> I bought a Macbook last holiday season and couldn't even set it up until my wife set up her iPhone on my account...
I have no idea what you mean by this. You do not need, and have never needed, to own an iPhone to use an Apple computer.
> I bought my wife a iWatch last week and briefly thought of getting myself one but you can't use it without an iPhone...
This, on the other hand, makes a little more sense. The Apple Watch is designed as a companion device to an iPhone. Much of its functionality relies upon the phone (e.g. displaying notifications from the phone, installing watch apps which pair with corresponding phone apps) -- it can't do much on its own.
If pre-installed and configure, it’s still convenient for things like wallet/Apple Pay, esp when I do dumb stuff like forget my wallet and phone at home and need to pay for things.
When I got my M1 MBP there was no way, that I could find, to set up the computer and login the first time without using an iPhone. I don't remember the exact phrasing it gave me, but the only way I could get the system set up was my wife logging out of her iPhone, and logging into it as me. I don't know if this is newer than your experience, or there was some trick to get past it, but I couldn't find one.
I have a M1 and M2 (Pro and Air, and non-M Pro and Air) and have never done this, and never seen it. I do not even have an Apple ID logged into any Mac laptop I have ever owned.
You do not need an account or an iPhone, this makes no sense to me. Was this purchased new from a retail store?
The cellular version of the Apple Watch can perform a limited set of tasks -- like making phone calls, sending/receiving text messages, and playing music -- without a phone present. It still requires a phone for full functionality, and for setup.
My TV offered free Apple TV+. In order to sign in, I had to get a code sent to a laptop sitting far away. I assume they expected me to be carrying an iPhone, as no non-Apple device could provide the OTP. Using an Apple service is simply not worth the hassle.
At the risk of being pedantic, no. Apple Stores aren’t able or empowered to provide Apple ID support beyond what the public website based recovery workflows provide. I am sure someone will note that someone at an Apple Store has helped them reset an Apple ID password. What I mean is that Apple Store employees have neither procedure nor access to override Apple’s account system. You have to call support for assistance beyond what the website can do. I am sure Apple Store employees have been helpful and I’m sure policies have changed over time.
As an Apple user I find this as frustrating as it is wise. Mostly for future-me who may one day not be as savvy and manage to screw myself.
I don’t fully trust iCloud Keychain and Apple to never lose my data in a “I don’t concern myself with backups” manner. So I opt for using Passkeys where I can also add my FIDO2 tokens.
Eh. Pedantically; the Apple Store will at least try to help you, even if they’re not empowered to fix it they will guide you through the process until there is a resolution.
It’s not as “you’re on your own” as some products I’ve owned.
This is key. That the Apple Store can't directly help you doesn't mean they won't direct you to the proper person (and possibly stay with you if possible & desired)
I suspected this, which is why I accounted for it – the point is that if Apple started getting enough bad press, they would have to put Apple ID verification in their stores, because their customers are the people who pay for Apple products.
Google's customers are mostly the people that get to show you ads. So they don't seem to care about even the paying users for their products. And it's sad that Apple seems to be going the way of trying to be an ad platform as well.
> but I can at least visualize Apple having the scale to do that.
> Google on the other hand has a horrendous reputation for
Neither are true nor false but definitely exaggerations. All you're doing is displaying personal biases by providing them with benefit-of-the-doubts. They too have a reputation for locking people out, and are well known for turning data over, but one that HN in gernal prefers to ignore.
> Neither are true nor false but definitely exaggerations.
Google does not kill services. That does not happen. Google definitely does not deplatform people killing all their accounts and all their access. That also does not happen.
Apple absolutely did not abandon the Xserve platform after promising a professional and modern Unix experience. Google is definitely the only one with a penchant for mercy-killing unsuccessful products.
