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I have to admit this is a bit surprising from Musk. I was pretty firmly of the theory that his real motive re Twitter was basically narcissism, and I'm still not sure that's wrong. I note he's not agreeing strongly with Dorsey, with the strongest phrase being "I'd like to help if I can".

And I still think he would be better off using any money he might have spent buying Twitter on funding a handful of open source competitors instead. The most charitable reason I can think of for trying to salvage Twitter for this grand goal of fixing web communication is to keep the network effect of having everyone be there. Would that even be meaningful in a real transition to something with a totally different architecture?




>I was pretty firmly of the theory that his real motive re Twitter was basically narcissism, and I'm still not sure that's wrong.

Why is it so hard to believe that Musk genuinely believes in exactly the version of "freedom of speech" that everyone in his generation grew up with, that served as the impetus for much of the internet's creation, etc.?


Well personally I don't believe that because I watched his ted talk and it didn't seem like he had spent more than a few minutes thinking through the specifics of what his implementation of free speech would mean.


Agree, he seems to lacking incredible nuance in the different levels of free speech.


It seems like a lot of people (Rogan, the Thiel guys, Calcanis) are coming to him talking about free speech, and he kind of nods along, but I didn't really see anything that demonstrated his own passion for the topic. He seems primarily motivated by a belief that Twitter is poorly run as a business, and that it will be difficult or impossible to turn it around as a public company.


Because this viewpoint isn’t consistent with his actions; he has a long history of retaliating against anyone who criticizes him, including attacking journalists and threatening them with lawsuits as well as firing employees who raise issues within his companies.


How is "retaliating against criticism" contradictory to free speech?

I could certainly argue with someone on HN but also say their banning is unjust (if I felt that it was).

This has been a "solved" issue for centuries.

https://quoteinvestigator.com/2015/06/01/defend-say/


Your comment is baffling. You ask, 'How is "retaliating against criticism" contradictory to free speech?', then spend the rest of your comment explaining why it's good to not retaliate against criticism.

Did you mean to ask and answer your own question? If that was your intent it sure wasn't clear. Do you not know what "retaliate" means, even with the context clue of threatening lawsuits against journalists? Is your first paragraph meant to be entirely causally disconnected from the rest? If so I kind of have to respect it, but it would sure help to give us some clues because that is not a conventional writing structure. What, in short, are you trying to say?


There is nothing contradictory about retaliating against criticism.

>Do you not know what "retaliate" means

I'm using the actual definition, which I assumed you were too?

"make an attack or assault in return for a similar attack."

If someone were to criticize you, you can "retaliate" while also believing said person should be kicked off the platform. I'm doing it right now.

>threatening lawsuits against journalists

https://www.google.com/search?q=elon+musk+threaten+lawsuit+j...

I can't find anything about this, except for a FastCompany article which I can't access atm because their website is down.


Retaliation with the intent to silence critics is acting to undermine free speech. He could, for example, welcome the criticism and respond with facts.


>Retaliation with the intent to silence critics

which critics?

When I search for this, I get this article:

https://www.cnbc.com/2022/04/25/elon-musk-and-free-speech-tr...

Which is full of honestly ridiculous examples like "he told an analyst to shut up and stop asking boneheaded questions." Or "he told his followers to edit his wikipedia page" ...?

The "best" examples are of workers are are currently in litigation.

Everything else, I see no reason why one couldn't support free speech on a social platform while also requiring beta testers to sign NDAs.

>welcome the criticism and respond with facts Do you have examples of where/when this could have been done?

At the end of the day, I feel like a lot of this just comes from the fact that when one supports free speech, it comes with a *. It's easier to say "I support free speech" vs "I support the idea people should be able to post their opinions online without being banned (this doesn't mean anyone can post live execution videos or organize crime, etc)."


He grew up with freedom of speech in apartheid South Africa?


I feel like this response deliberately avoids the point I was making, in favor of kicking up confusion.

He grew up on the internet. At a time when everyone was turning their internet web pages black to protest censorship. At a time when "the internet interprets censorship as damage and routes around it" was a slogan touted proudly by technologists and philosophers.

It's not Elon Musk that changed, it seems to me. It's the cultural values on the internet that have changed, and arguably not for the better - more control, more censorship, more centralization.


> He grew up on the internet

Elon Musk was born in 1971. He grew up on television.


So, no thoughts on how Musk's attitude seems remarkably consistent with the speech and actions of the internet's founding minds, I take it?


> "freedom of speech" that everyone in his generation grew up with, that served as the impetus for much of the internet's creation

Yes, because bulletin board systems famously had no moderation whatsoever.

Wait...


I don't know how much you remember about the transition from BBSes to the internet, but the heavy handed moderation of FidoNet is one of the exact reasons we all flooded into UseNet when it started to become available, and most likely a big part of why "FidoNet" is consigned to history's dustbin despite being, at one time, the most popular forum discussion system.


Because if that's his real motivation, it's more efficient to build a competitor. It would probably be even more efficient to put polish on existing competitors like Mastodon. Buying Twitter is one of the silliest possible approaches. Thus, skepticism.


I wonder whether Elon supports the freedom of speech in China


It’s likely 99.9% of Twitter’s user base does not care about this issue. Would be hard to build a product that is compelling enough to overcome the extreme network effect of something that is arguably a utility.


Narcissists can get caught up in their own narcissism. It clouds everything.


Why would this transition ever happen? Network effect is too strong. How open-sourcedness of an alternative would help with this fact?


network effects are overcome all the time. all the social networks are dying sooner or later. even facebook is panicking because they're losing the next generation and instagram is panically trying to emulate tiktok or whatever because they have _something_.


I agree that most social media networks have been cyclical, but Twitter seems to stand the test of time. Maybe not with the youngest generations, but Twitter definitely hasn’t seen the exodus that Facebook has.


MySpace


There is no solution for fixing web communication that doesn't involve uploading your ID every time you post something.

The internet was, is and always will be a cesspool. It comes with anonimity and plausible deniability.


Even if you require ID, the internet will always feel less personal.

This started because of anonymity, but it could very well be embedded into the culture by now. Just because we feel that 'things on the internet do not count'. That is caused by anonymity; but also obscurity of your actions; the impersonal connection; the fact that you are communicating to the entire world; the fact that your interlocutor is someone you barely know, a lot of 'bad' digital communication is the first and last time two people are talking at each-other; and the fact that a lot of communication on the internet is largely performative because it is public.

In summary, removing anonymity alone will probably not get close to fixing things.


Anonymity is a design choice of HTTP. What if there were a different protocol where the users are never anonymous. You never have to transmit ID in that case because sockets are only established between trusted end points


“Trusted” in what sense? Uploading your ID is a form of trust verification, trusting that the person posting is who they say they are.


Ironic that you write this comment on hacker news


I don't think so at all. He's posting it here because it's one of the few places remaining on the internet free of advertising and outside bias (mostly)


HN has mods. Which would be considered censorship by libertarians.

Ofcourse if you get down to it everyone wants censorship to remove things they don't agree with. A very amusing/sad example is Reddit.


Musk and his team put together a fundraising deck and were actively looking for investors. It was never vanity for Musk. The deck was pretty clear about what Musk thought Twitter could become.




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