Hi Rick, nice to see you here I was not expecting the subject of the piece to be here so that is pretty cool.
> I dont think anyone mistakenly believes that
Unfortunately many people do. I volunteer here in [redacted] teaching mostly teens the basics of programming but it is open to all and I quite often have adults that have been convinced they should know how to code by the "learn to code!" messages that seem to be everywhere the past decade or so.
Many of these people get upset when they struggle beyond the basics which is probably 60-70% of people going by how many complete the course. I did wonder if perhaps I just suck as a teacher but comparing the numbers not just across those I work with but across the whole country the figure is the same. Just seems two thirds of people can't or don't have an interest to push passed the wall once they hit it.
> It is a legit path to a rewarding job which is open to those without degrees and who might have felonies on record.
I 100% agree with you here. After all I myself have been a professional programmer for near twenty years now and love it so much I give my time to others to help them see if they have the same love for programming as I do. I have taught dozens of people from ~11 years old up to mid-40s how to code that have gone on to have careers as developers.
> With real commitment its very attainable.
This is a big point. It takes commitment. Many people can't or won't commit. Sometimes it is that they can't do it for whatever reason but many times they don't commit because they never had that spark which is clear you did. To them programming was boring. They didn't find it interesting solving some "silly" syntax issue instead they found it frustrating and would rather do something else.
> There are a lot of people who have had their entires life changed through that skill.
And that is awesome. Like I said in my first post I am very happy to see more good programmers enter the market. We need them.
> Definitely not the solution for everyone, but it is the solution for some.
The point in my original reply was that in my experience the whole "learn to code!" thing is talked about as a solution for everyone. What frustrates me is there is so much invested into the learn to code "solution" that I see hardly any other options with the same kind of drive behind it.
Now I can't talk about prison education systems as I have no knowledge of them. But I do know UK and [redacted] schools and my personal opinion it is unfairly pushed over almost everything else. Why? I am not privy to the decisions made higher up but from how I see things it is because it is cheap.
Computers are cheap, resources are almost all free or close to free (YouTube is free, books are cheap, etc), the software needed is almost always free for education, etc. It can be done pretty much anywhere you have a power socket and it doesn't require special single purpose hardware. I know you know all this getting started with Python and OpenCourseWare after all.
Simply put the financial barrier for entry to learning to code is very near zero and that is super attractive to schools.
Anyway my first comment wasn't in any way an attack on people learning to code. I apologise if you felt that it was and hopefully this reply better explains why I feel the way I do.
I am glad that learning to code has had such a positive impact on your life and wish you success in the future :)
I agree with everything you say here. I was unaware that people have taken it so seriously as to feel compelled to learn to code. I agree with you, its being marketed everywhere.
And you are spot on about the other options (for employment) not being discussed. I think plumbing and HVAC (here in Florida HVAC techs are in constant demand) are reasonable options to pursue for many folks getting out but you dont see it discussed as much.
Obviously the allure of a high salary is one of the reasons people talk about coding more but the consistent demand for the less discussed skills should be factored in. Its damn near a sure bet you can find work if you learn HVAC or plumbing. In all transparency I only have seen and heard of the demand second hand, I dont know for certain. Ive never done either of those trades.
and no offense taken. Nonetheless thank you for explaining further.
I think you're forgetting we're talking about felons. I'm an underdog who is now a full-time software developer (thanks to the Underdogs & Rick ;) and trust me if I could be a doctor <insert career> that would take a felon I'd be happy to try. But here in America, it's not that easy. Especially when you have laws that flat out bar you. So though you might be right for your average citizen but once you get to our end it's not the same. Coding really is the best route for us felons. And thats from experiance.
> I think you're forgetting we're talking about felons.
Yes I made a mistake not clarifying I was talking in general about the push for learn to code programmes.
For people incarcerated I agree a learn to code programme makes a hell of a lot of sense however so do many other career options as Rick mentioned in his reply https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=32705015
HVAC is a good job.. so is a roofer.. and all construction.. and i used to do that and i dont knock it at all it kept my family fed BUT those are not careers i could recommend folks like me to try (because they're probably already doing that lol) Im just one of those annoying folks who just have to tell everyone especially felons to at least try coding. Ive already felt the financial impact in my life and its not the same.This stuff is life changing;)
> I dont think anyone mistakenly believes that
Unfortunately many people do. I volunteer here in [redacted] teaching mostly teens the basics of programming but it is open to all and I quite often have adults that have been convinced they should know how to code by the "learn to code!" messages that seem to be everywhere the past decade or so.
Many of these people get upset when they struggle beyond the basics which is probably 60-70% of people going by how many complete the course. I did wonder if perhaps I just suck as a teacher but comparing the numbers not just across those I work with but across the whole country the figure is the same. Just seems two thirds of people can't or don't have an interest to push passed the wall once they hit it.
> It is a legit path to a rewarding job which is open to those without degrees and who might have felonies on record.
I 100% agree with you here. After all I myself have been a professional programmer for near twenty years now and love it so much I give my time to others to help them see if they have the same love for programming as I do. I have taught dozens of people from ~11 years old up to mid-40s how to code that have gone on to have careers as developers.
> With real commitment its very attainable.
This is a big point. It takes commitment. Many people can't or won't commit. Sometimes it is that they can't do it for whatever reason but many times they don't commit because they never had that spark which is clear you did. To them programming was boring. They didn't find it interesting solving some "silly" syntax issue instead they found it frustrating and would rather do something else.
> There are a lot of people who have had their entires life changed through that skill.
And that is awesome. Like I said in my first post I am very happy to see more good programmers enter the market. We need them.
> Definitely not the solution for everyone, but it is the solution for some.
The point in my original reply was that in my experience the whole "learn to code!" thing is talked about as a solution for everyone. What frustrates me is there is so much invested into the learn to code "solution" that I see hardly any other options with the same kind of drive behind it.
Now I can't talk about prison education systems as I have no knowledge of them. But I do know UK and [redacted] schools and my personal opinion it is unfairly pushed over almost everything else. Why? I am not privy to the decisions made higher up but from how I see things it is because it is cheap.
Computers are cheap, resources are almost all free or close to free (YouTube is free, books are cheap, etc), the software needed is almost always free for education, etc. It can be done pretty much anywhere you have a power socket and it doesn't require special single purpose hardware. I know you know all this getting started with Python and OpenCourseWare after all.
Simply put the financial barrier for entry to learning to code is very near zero and that is super attractive to schools.
Anyway my first comment wasn't in any way an attack on people learning to code. I apologise if you felt that it was and hopefully this reply better explains why I feel the way I do.
I am glad that learning to code has had such a positive impact on your life and wish you success in the future :)