You said that last time ( https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=31224977 ) I promise I'm not fantasizing about magic elves. :) However, it's clear that Native American lifestyles were preferable to European-American lifestyles. Graeber and Wengrow in "The Dawn of Everything" quote at length a letter from Ben Franklin on the subject:
> When an Indian Child has been brought up among us, taught our language and habituated to our Customs, yet if he goes to see his relations and make one Indian Ramble with them there is no persuading him ever to return, and that this is not natural merely as Indians, but as men, is plain from this, that when white persons of either sex have been taken prisoner young by the Indians, and lived awhile among them, tho’ ransomed by their Friends, and treated with all imaginable tenderness to prevail with them to stay among the English, yet in a Short time they become disgusted with our manner of life, and the care and pains that are necessary to support it, and take the first opportunity of escaping again into the Woods, from whence there is no reclaiming them. One instance I remember to have heard, where the person was to be brought home to possess a good Estate; but finding some care necessary to keep it together, he relinquished it to a younger brother, reserving to himself nothing but a gun and match-Coat, with which he took his way again to the Wilderness.
Anyway...
> Shelter was still a valued commodity and not guaranteed human right. Tribes fought over land, and dwellings required labor.
Sure, but there weren't homeless people. I mean a fire, flood, or enemy attack might leave people destitute, but there wasn't a perpetual destitute class, eh? Dwellings didn't require a lot of labor.
> They often had many people to a dwelling because of this specifically.
Are you sure? I am not an anthropologist (nor a Native American for that matter) but my impression is that that would have had more to do with family structure?
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Really the point I'm making isn't specific to the New World, it was common all over the world for people to build their own houses. In economic terms it wasn't very expensive to build a new dwelling.
> If you wanted to build an igloo or adobe building today, the land is cheap as are the materials. No one is interested in doing this exactly because the conditions would be considered economic destitution.
A lot of places won't let you build and live in an igloo or adobe building today.
Is it that shocking that I would hold consistent views over time? I have some experience in this area that would be very difficult to dislodge.
I have lived off the power, sewage, phone, and internet grid for 20 years. I have built cheap homesteads and expensive ones. I have spent days foraging pinion nuts and weeks bowhunting deer.
I like to think I have some sense of the luxuries afforded by modern living, and what it is like to go without them.
>Really the point I'm making isn't specific to the New World, it was common all over the world for people to build their own houses. In economic terms it wasn't very expensive to build a new dwelling.
My specific point is that it still isn't, if you are willing to put up with the quality of lodgings non-industrialized people and settlers had. You can buy a wooded plot of land and build a log cabin for free. You can buy a steel shed that Native Peoples would have marveled at for a ~$1k.
>A lot of places won't let you build and live in an igloo or adobe building today.
Not in down town SF or most urban centers. If you leave these behind, nobody is going hunt you down and arrest you for living off-grid in a backcountry hovel. People actually do this!
>I promise I'm not fantasizing about magic elves. :) However, it's clear that Native American lifestyles were preferable to European-American lifestyles
I think you are fantasizing about elves. There is a lot positive to be said about native lifestyles, and negative to be said about industrialized lifestyles. However, I think most of them boil down to cultural issues and materialism, not the fact that Indians had somehow a superior material wellbeing.
Even the homeless have many superior luxuries to natives. What they lack is in a different category entirely.
> Is it that shocking that I would hold consistent views over time?
Not at all, in fact I respect that. I just didn't realize that we had talked about this before when I replied to your previous comment. On the one hand I feel a little silly, on the other hand I got to trot out that Ben Franklin quote, so that's cool. What do you think of that, what he wrote?
> I have some experience in this area that would be very difficult to dislodge. I have lived off the power, sewage, phone, and internet grid for 20 years. I have built cheap homesteads and expensive ones. I have spent days foraging pinion nuts and weeks bowhunting deer. I like to think I have some sense of the luxuries afforded by modern living, and what it is like to go without them.
That's fascinating! I don't want to get personal but I'd love to hear more about it?
> My specific point is that it still isn't, if you are willing to put up with the quality of lodgings non-industrialized people and settlers had. You can buy a wooded plot of land and build a log cabin for free. You can buy a steel shed that Native Peoples would have marveled at for a ~$1k.
> > A lot of places won't let you build and live in an igloo or adobe building today.
> Not in down town SF or most urban centers. If you leave these behind, nobody is going hunt you down and arrest you for living off-grid in a backcountry hovel. People actually do this!
You're right. My impression is that this is easier said than done, but that might be because I'm mostly only looking in California, where people have gotten kind of huffy about that sort of thing, at least in most counties. I've been looking at these cheap 2-5 acre parcels out in the desert (Utah, Arizona, NM, CO) that are just a couple of grand. Some of them even have electricity nearby. I guess the demand just isn't there.
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> > I promise I'm not fantasizing about magic elves. :) However, it's clear that Native American lifestyles were preferable to European-American lifestyles
> I think you are fantasizing about elves.
You think I am, I think I'm not, which one of us is closer to my brain? :)
> There is a lot positive to be said about native lifestyles, and negative to be said about industrialized lifestyles. However, I think most of them boil down to cultural issues and materialism, not the fact that Indians had somehow a superior material wellbeing.
There are very few cases of Native peoples voluntarily adopting Western lifestyles. They adopted useful things like guns and metal knives, but not culture.
That Ben Franklin quote makes it pretty clear that people preferred Native lifestyles despite the material lack. The fellow "reserving to himself nothing but a gun and match-Coat" shows that the "Wilderness" at that time actually met all his material needs, eh?
There's no doubt that the Indians did not have a superior material wellbeing. To me it's fascinating to speculate on what immaterial quality the Native life must have had that the European life didn't that outweighed the superior material wellbeing of the European.
You said that last time ( https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=31224977 ) I promise I'm not fantasizing about magic elves. :) However, it's clear that Native American lifestyles were preferable to European-American lifestyles. Graeber and Wengrow in "The Dawn of Everything" quote at length a letter from Ben Franklin on the subject:
> When an Indian Child has been brought up among us, taught our language and habituated to our Customs, yet if he goes to see his relations and make one Indian Ramble with them there is no persuading him ever to return, and that this is not natural merely as Indians, but as men, is plain from this, that when white persons of either sex have been taken prisoner young by the Indians, and lived awhile among them, tho’ ransomed by their Friends, and treated with all imaginable tenderness to prevail with them to stay among the English, yet in a Short time they become disgusted with our manner of life, and the care and pains that are necessary to support it, and take the first opportunity of escaping again into the Woods, from whence there is no reclaiming them. One instance I remember to have heard, where the person was to be brought home to possess a good Estate; but finding some care necessary to keep it together, he relinquished it to a younger brother, reserving to himself nothing but a gun and match-Coat, with which he took his way again to the Wilderness.
Anyway...
> Shelter was still a valued commodity and not guaranteed human right. Tribes fought over land, and dwellings required labor.
Sure, but there weren't homeless people. I mean a fire, flood, or enemy attack might leave people destitute, but there wasn't a perpetual destitute class, eh? Dwellings didn't require a lot of labor.
> They often had many people to a dwelling because of this specifically.
Are you sure? I am not an anthropologist (nor a Native American for that matter) but my impression is that that would have had more to do with family structure?
- - - -
Really the point I'm making isn't specific to the New World, it was common all over the world for people to build their own houses. In economic terms it wasn't very expensive to build a new dwelling.
> If you wanted to build an igloo or adobe building today, the land is cheap as are the materials. No one is interested in doing this exactly because the conditions would be considered economic destitution.
A lot of places won't let you build and live in an igloo or adobe building today.
But I'm not really advocating that. There are modern low-embodied-energy and high efficacy home designs (e.g. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Earthship ) that would be much more comfortable for the modern sensibilities. Imagine if a modern home could be had for $10k instead of $100K ( https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dymaxion_house )?