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A hacker's loneliness
70 points by maryrosecook on Sept 24, 2008 | hide | past | favorite | 68 comments
"The computer is more interesting than most people. I love to spend time with my computer. It is fun to write programs for it, play games on it, and to build new parts for it. It is fascinating to try to figure out what part of the program it is in by the way the lights flicker or the radio buzzes.

"...The computer has moved out of the den and into the rest of your life. It will consume all of your spare time, and even your vacation, if you let it. It will empty your wallet and tie up your thoughts. It will drive away your family. Your friends will start to think of you as a bore. And what for?"

Shaken by the break-up of his marriage, Tom Pittman decided to change his habits. And he did. He later described the transformation: "I take a day of rest now. I won't turn on the computer on Sunday.

"The other six days, I work like a dog."

- Hackers, Steven Levy.




"Is this indifference to the world a consequence of too much intercourse with machines that give the appearance of thinking? How were he to fare if one day he has to quit computers and rejoin a civilized society?... The more he has to do with computing, the more it seems to him like chess: a tight little world defined by made-up rules, one that sucks in boys of a certain susceptible temperament and then turns them half-crazy, as he is half-crazy, so that all the time they deludedly think they are playing the game, the game is in fact playing them."

-J.M. Coetzee, winner of the 2003 Nobel Prize in Literature and former IBM programmer, from "Youth, Scenes from Provincial Life II."


Once a hacker, always a hacker.

For anyone who has read J.M. Coetzee knows, he is no F. Scott Fitzgerald, the stereotypical glamorous and superfluous writer; his prose and temperament matches that of a mathematician, rational and precise but nonetheless beautiful in its own right. Without going to the emo's and my personal sob stories, I'll jump right into how I cope with dealing with loneliness and the mainstream society.

1) Learn the protocol and languages of the mainstream American society: two words. Sports and music: they may seem like the most unhackish things to do, the former an activity of "dude-bro's" and the latter the effeminate hipsters, and both the epitome of American "individualist conformity."

But if you look past the posers, they are incredibly, like hacking, creative activities. Weight-training and aerobics is by definition, pushing past your limit of endurance and strength, like a late night coding marathon: a mind game (Romo: "My body is the soldier, but my mind is the general").

Music, is by definition about pushing the envelope, coding and playing. Sampling is like googling for code snippets online, re-arranging and constructing your personal software. Practicing is like coding and going over and over the compiler error's and then tracing through the runtime errors: if you really get into it, it's addictive to get it perfect.

2) Hack the social system. The social culture of the American high school and college and yuppie's in their early 20's is very much like the wall street c(v)ulture. Women and your peers are like wall street analyst, with absolutely no regards to your underlying vision and long-term potential. But if you do not beat the next quarter earning estimate or put out a good looking short-term "balance-sheet," (but it's okay if it is faked), all hell break loose.

So sell yourself like the slickest CFO's from Lehman/Enron/WorldCom. Hackers are sometimes too grounded, wondering out aloud what frameworks and API's they should use; they are too truthful sometimes when American culture is a shallow and superficial one.

This means going to a party, approach a group of people, interrupting the dude-bro talking about "doing a keg-stand" and the hipsters talking about (un)indie bands, smile and say, "I make software that predict breast cancer susceptibility in women, that plays the most appropriate music for your current mood, and that exploit the inefficiencies in the stock market to perform algorithmic trading for maximum profit." You don't even need to go further, the people in the attendance will be pressing you for more.

But in the end, superficial women and friends (read: friends that you go out with, not friends you have deep connections) are just that: wall street analysts. Don't get too hanged up by the "short-term balance sheet," be in for the long term. And by the long term, I don't just mean: an engineering degree or a stable job, but the software that will predict cancer, recommends music and exploit the stock market - and also yes, friends who could respect and relate to who you are.

Don't sell-out, buy in. Be a hacker, go against the grain, always be exploring, sharing and not ever yielding.


Somehow, that line just has a brilliant ring of truth to it: Once a hacker, always a hacker. And it's probably right. You can't go back to a life of normalcy after experiencing the exhilaration of hacking away at something for hours on end and finally getting it. What you can do, though, is apply your mind to the social system - as you said, hack it.

A lot of nerds and geeks (the ones I know at least) are unpopular not because they're unpleasant people (they aren't), but because they don't understand how the social system works, what you're allowed to say and what you aren't (and when). If you just watch people talking around you you can easily notice what annoys people or causes them to end the conversation, and avoid doing it. If you just apply your mind to everyday life, being involved in your surrounding culture really isn't that hard.


Actually Paul Graham discussed this point in an interesting way: If geeks are so smart, why don't they just work the social system the way they would hack a computer program?

I agree with his conclusion: Geeks care (desperately even) about being popular (or normal or whatever you want to call it), but they care more about other things. There are only 24 hours in a day. If you are way into tech stuff, math, physics etc. you can't at the same time spend all your time worrying about clothes and (rubbish) popular culture, socializing and leveling up in the social game.

Well, that and the fact that the geek persona is naturally skilled in very litteral disciplines, whereas social interaction is much more about 'soft' skills like empathy and intuition.


Also, if you add jokes in the right way, you can often turn your geekiness into a "cute" joke with girls with incredible ease. I've yet to achieve results, but I'll tell you about it if I do.


By the way, the same applies to Europe.

I would only add: make all your life changes an evolution, not a revolution. If something screws up or turns out not to be exactly what you wanted, you can always revert the small change you made.


It makes me regret when I recall how much of my life I've lost to programming.

I spend most of my mid-teens (15,16,17) writing pointless C programs (interpreters, compilers, etc. for pathetic new languages that probably no one except me will use).

While my classmates from high school went out dating girls, watching new movies, etc.; I would be sitting in front of my computer palms on forehead fixing hard to find C pointer bugs.

The only person I could have a decent conversation with was my CS teacher. In the end it was only after coming to college I realized how much I had lost.

I barely had any communication skills, absolutely zero sexual experience (haven't even walked holding hands with a female - even today) and the reputation of being a geek. And you know what? I realized I wasn't a happy person anymore.

I think this kind of a life is seriously screwed. Very soon (been trying) I'm gonna totally quit "being geek" (programming for a hobby, etc.) and try to be normal like everyone else.


Quitting is a poor idea. Maybe the work is something you love or maybe you are simply using it to occupy your time and create an excuse to avoid the anxiety of social situations. Either way the key is going to be moderation.

My previous roommates in college found it odd that I would spend Monday through Friday alone in my room working or reading, yet on the weekends come out an be completely extroverted. They were almost offended that I didn't want to sit around and watch tv with them during the week. That is somewhat of a sidetrack, but this balancing method allowed my to keep somewhat of an equilibrium with my life.

Take the approach starting tomorrow the same way you would if you were learning a new programming language. It would be insanity and a complete suicide mission to dive into the properties of compilers without even understanding the basic "hello world". You need to take smalls steps and develop your social skills in the same way you would your programming ones.

And by the way, normalcy is overrated.


thanx for the advice


Don't be a fool arjungmenon, you have a good prospects for the future. While your peers waste precious time, you are sharpening your skills and working on something you enjoy. While you are young, it is a great time to learn new things and advance.

You will become expert in programming, which you know is an exciting field, and then it will be relatively easy to get good paying job, or can start your own company if you feel like it, and later, when you establish yourself professionally and will find your path, it will be easier to have meaningful longterm relationship.

I also spent a lot of my young time in from of a computer or solving math puzzles, and I don't regret it at all. On a more personal note, I had my first gf when I was 24 and married at 32. And I don't feel like missing anything.


His peers were not "wasting" their precious time, they were having fun and doing something they enjoyed.

Moderation is good, and its good to remember not to take yourself too seriously (you appear to have serious plans for arjungmenon, greyman, stop taking yourself so seriously).

I doubt your days of hard programming were a waste. They are an experience at least, a side of life you are aware of that your peers might not be.

Knee-jerks - bad. Moderation - good. Trying new things - exceptionally good.


You have too rosy a picture of what your high school classmates were doing. They were mostly wasting their time. What you're calling "dating girls" is better described as "chasing girls", and they were mostly unsuccessful.

You need, at most, a bit of moderation. Don't try to be normal - normal sucks.


I don't disagree with "normal sucks", but don't underestimate chasing girls. It can sometimes be more fun than the dating part :)

I've personally been fortunate in finding a great balance between hacking and living, and am grateful for it.


Don't think you have to quit being a geek to be happy or "normal". "Geek" and "normal" are just arbitrary labels.

I spent most of my high school and college years same as you. Then I made a slow, concerted effort to balance out (learned to dance, make friends, talk to girls).

Today I'm still a geek, but reasonably social and "normal" too -- as much as I care to be, anyway. At any given hour I'm a geek, a socialite, an artist, a dope, and so on. People are dynamic, not static; don't limit yourself. Have fun!


And there are geek girls, too.


Try to pick up some sports. Its generally a good way to meet people in a casual way. You get in shape as a plus.


For what it's worth, as a geek girl, I'd rather be with a guy who knew his way around a computer than one who spent his time chasing girls, getting drunk etc (the "normal" young adult things).

You just have to find someone to share your life with who matches your interests... there's no point trying to be someone else, someone you're not.


In college I ended up helping found a Science Fiction/Fantasy/Anime/Gaming club which served both as a geeky outlet and as a social hub. I'm still very close with many of the friends I made there. Look for like-minded individuals! They are out there.


You can be happy without being "normal". Normalcy is overrated. Balance, on the other hand, isn't. Go out and start meeting people. A good place to start is some sort of relatively geeky but non-computer oriented event. SCA, perhaps? Pick something on the internet, find a local group, and join.

Really, the thing is to frequently ask yourself "Is what I'm doing making me happy now? If not, is it somehow helping me be happier in the long term? If not, why the f--k am I doing it?"


arjungmenon, email me i understand were you are comming from, but my advice would be to not worry about the girls.

1. if you are on this site you want to start a company, and i have yet to have a girlfriend that accepts my non traditional lifestyle of starting companies and taking chances.

2. most of the people you meet in life are distractions, i meet some great friends in college and i found them through all sorts of activities,... most of them were creative computer projects.

so enjoy college meet other geeks and you will be just fine.

heck join your local engingeering fraternity


i dont have ur email.. but mine is arjungmenon at gmail dot com


This above all: to thine own self be true, And it must follow, as the night the day, Thou canst not then be false to any man.

--William Shakespeare


You're doing great. Here's your life path: http://www.suck.com/daily/99/02/10/nc_index5.html (posted here: http://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=314616 )


there are normal people who program for a hobbie ;)

just be moderate.


This is sad, I feel this way while doing a CS degree at Berkeley and working in front of a computer for UCSF in my spare time.

Instead of just complaining and racking up karma, I propose we meet up at a bar in the city (San Francisco to you non-bay area residents). Who's with me to get drunk and tell nerdy jokes on Saturday night?

I'm totally not kidding. If you need an excuse, call it networking. If you don't, call it partying.

[Edit: I'm down for seedier mission bars, but anywhere is fine if there's enough interest.]


A group of us do this on a pretty regular basis at Hackers and Founders: http://entrepreneur.meetup.com/1737/ We're getting together Next Wednesday.


Wow, that definitely sounds like something I'll be doing. Unfortunately, I've got 2 midterms on the Thursday afterwards, so I'll have to pass on this Wednesday. Thanks for the heads-up though. Hope to meet you there.


We're getting together almost every other week, so if you can't make this week, we'll have another get together in another couple of weeks.


Moderation.

If you let any one thing consume all of your time then you're missing out on all the beauty and diversity the world and life can offer.

Feed your brain new experiences and it will reward you.


This is key.

Apart from hacking away at the computer (I also do it for 8 hours a day at work), I cook daily dinners/breakfast as a hobby, I spend lots of time with my girlfriend (easier when you live together) and I try to generally disconnect from the computer for a few hours a day wether it be right after work or later at night

Some nights I won't even go near the PC except to turn on a movie, and some nights I will come home and work all night on the computer. It varies

As bufferout said, Moderation :)


There is also problem with relationships with some women. I think, most women don't mind you are spending so much time with a computer (as long as you are making good money doing it). But they are jealous they must share the love and attention with something like a computer. That is something unbearable for them. In this case, you as a hacker have to lie that you hate your daily work, your boss is an asshole and you have to stay at work longer just to pay the bills. Don't even think to be honest for second and telling truth that you love your work, you escape there because you are resting by working, by being creative and by seeing your code/product running. If you have family, maybe is better to take well-paid but boring 8-5 job full of assholes, where you will look forward for the end and rushing home to wife and kids. Computer you may use just for reading news on Friday evening.

Are you more a mad scientist or a family guy? :-)


This happens to many people who are very into their work, computers or not. I have 2 good friends who are both very successful artists, and they are both divorced because of their commitment to their work.


My opinion is maybe biased by living in central Europe. But I see many people who are not satisfied with their work and realize their passions somewhere else (family, hobbies, you name it). I'm a little afraid here it is still social norm even 20 years after communism era. As far as I can observe women are more often these unsatisfied workers because they tend to have worse and less paid jobs and what more: they are naturally "hardwired" to be passionate about family in the first place. So they don't understand someone is going to work not for money, but for fun and his passion.


I think that it's less a matter of lying about how much you love work and making sure that your woman feels secure in your love. She has to know that she comes first. That is, if you want to keep the relationship.


I wasn't sure if this is appropriate. However, it expresses the loneliness that I, and, I expect, some other hackers, sometimes feel.


[deleted]


Or you can spend time doing what you want with people who also like doing that, and be truly happy. I live with 3 other hackers and love it.


You guys realize that girls and loving your work are not mutually exclusive..


The problem I have is that not only I both love to spend time with it, but that I know that I should be spending time with it to get the product done faster. Sometimes it may be fun, exciting, etc. but sometimes it's just an obligation.


I feel like the whole loneliness thing is mostly the person's fault. Instead of being your own man, you are trying to live up to someone else's expectations. Lets face it, as a startup founder you have a LOT more on your plate than some ex-highschool football quarterback who works at the Gap.


Mostly I see that Hackers tend to be generally unsatisfied with the state of things around them, and will compulsively seek to improve or atleast _know_ the system. The lonely part arises from these traits I think which puts them at a somewhat alienated position in society, because of their intolerance towards incompetence or the irrationality of the world around them, which I believe puts them at a risk of withdrawal from society towards the rational and logical world of computers. As for moderation, I don't think hackers are quite known for it. Hackers are by definition among the extremes of the computing society, so moderation would be viewed more as a stepping down. No wonder most hackers tend to be INTPs.


I would say that its not computers that make us this way, its mostly because we are this way, that we love these machines. we are thinkers, makers, dreamers and loners. Yes, i have friends in the real world, yes, i have social skills, but its my obsessions, that give me a reason, its my quest for knowledge and wisdom that drives me, people are mostly a biological need, not exactly like food, or water. God dammit, its my last year of high school, i gotta find me a girlfriend, but thats probably bad for my "coding happy hours".


I've been doing the "no computer for one day a week) plan for one week now. It's been great so far. (And I was inspired by that very paragraph of that excellent book).


Would it be different if hackers had the prestige of, say, a celebrity?

From what I understand, most super successful people work horribly long hours, but I suspect the feeling of fulfillment is also based on the social prestige of what they do. Computing is so ubiquitous (and also the cause of lots of frustration for some people) that those who drive the field don't get the recognition they deserve. Maybe the whole startup culture will change this, since the risk and self determination gives it more of a romantic flair.

At any rate, quitting, or even moderation, may not truly solve things if a person has a very deep love for their work. I think this adds a morally noble element to being a hacker startup-founder: it helps the whole field realize their true sense of self worth.


also the prestige thing is a multi-dimensional thing. high-brow vs low-brow and things like that play into this.


It's weird, high brow people have a stereotype of high brows and visa versa. I didn't think the terms were so literal.


That was a great book. Also check out "Crypto" by Steven Levy.


_The Code Book_ by Simon Singh (http://www.simonsingh.net/The_Code_Book.html) is quite a bit better, IMHO.


I sorta have the opposite problem. I'm quite introverted and enjoy programming for its own sake, but I have a difficult time making myself work on projects outside of work because it just feels too lonely.


It hasn't driven away my family, but it does drive away friends. Lol.


It did that to me for a while, too; I would always want to explain to them my latest idea or tell them about some awesome new language or something. They would yawn.

They're still awesome people, but sometimes I wish there were people around me who I could associate with and discuss computer hobbies with. (Sadly, being in school doesn't give you many opportunities to meet new people very often, it seems to me...)


School is THE place to meet new people. In fact, enjoy the variety of people you meet at school now. It's harder to meet interesting people later on, after you are out of school. Most people are content with discussing what they saw on TV last night and what their lunch companion has on their plate. "Is that pesto?" Enjoy your school years :)


Statements like the above always frustrate me.

I'm in school (and have been for a long time). Many people that I respect told me: grad school was the best part in their lives, that I should enjoy my time, and that it only goes downhill afterwards (no more research, family obligations, boring jobs, administration work, etc.).

Great. But what if I don't like my situation right now? What if I don't like grad school that much? What if I don't like most of the people around me? If the sentiment that grad school is the best part of life is correct, then what else is there to look forward to? What's the point?

(sorry for being all gloomy, but the parent's post really struck a nerve)


Yeah I know. People used to say high school was the best part of life and my take was if that was the case, then my life truly sucked :-(

Know what though? It wasn't. Neither was college. I truly started to enjoy life after being in the workforce for a few years and realizing that I was unhappy and needed to change my life. In my case change meant taking a new job 1,000 miles away in a place where I knew no-one (could make a totally clean restart), meeting a fantastic bohemian female friend who encouraged me to go out and meet other women and report back (nothing better than a woman who helps you meet other women :-), and who helped me discover the person I truly am.

My life may not be perfect, but I have learned that only I control my happiness and that making excuses for unhappiness is a waste of the short time we have on this planet.


+1 for doing what a lot of people are too afraid to do


Then it's your fault. Who's responsibility is it to put you in the situation where you are happy?

People stuck in a job they don't like because it pays enough to support there family have a reason to complain. You have no obligations but to yourself. If you think that you have obligations and try to use that as an excuse for why you are unhappy you are fooling yourself.

Find a different program, find a new hobby, meet a girl, start a company.

Being gloomy and getting angry that others are happy won't make you happy.


For many cheerleaders high school is the high point in their lives. Popularity, likeminded people everywhere and absolutely zero responsibilities.

So unless you're very similar to the person who tells you that grad school was the best part of his life, take it with a grain of salt. Maybe you like being responsible, maybe you like to work.

The thing is, many people give up on their dreams just after grad school. Compromise suddenly trumps all.

(And maybe you're just chronically unhappy person. Unhappy no matter what happens. Unhappy for no describable reason. Food for thought, huh?)


<Anecdotal evidence> Don't they have research where they track 2 sets of people before and after a traumatic event. One set goes through an extremely negative event (like paralyzed, etc) and one set wins the lottery or something similar. They find that the people, once they returned to steady state after the event, were about as happy as before, independent of their event (positive or negative). I kinda think that people make their situation into the way they are, and its independent of the situation. </anecdotal evidence>


Check out the work by Daniel Kahneman -- I believe he performed or referenced the study you mention. http://www.abc.net.au/rn/allinthemind/stories/2003/923773.ht...


What people usually mean when they say this is simply that college is a fantastic experience - not that it's going to be the only one in your life.

The combination of being young, unencumbered and part of a huge community of people who are looking to have fun means that it really is easy to have a fantastic time. If you aren't enjoying yourself, it's more than likely because you simply aren't making full use of what's available to you.

Obviously not everyone likes to get out and network, but most people do (geeks included) and so for them college can be a great experience.

Basically, "enjoying life" is entirely something you choose to do. If you aren't taking the steps to make college really fun for yourself, then it probably wont be the high-point of your life. Presumably you'll discover a happy lifestyle somewhere further down the line and enjoy that instead.


You sound really frustrated. Life is too short. If you hate grad school that much, drop it. Life certainly isn't downhill after school. My personal experience showed that the most interesting people I met, I met at school, not in cubicle land. Then again, it's what you make of it.


Where you go to grad school (or undergrad) has a LOT to do with it. And some luck as well - Your dept might not have anybody you want to be friends with. But two years down the road might change everything.

That said, for me, I've met the most people at school mostly because I find myself surrounded by people who I can identify with. Its easy to make friends in a group of people who are like you, but if you don't feel like you fit in a group of grad students, its hard to make friends...


At any point in life, whatever someone did ten-twenty years ago was the best part of their life.


Totally agree.

Coincidentally, I'm in school and many people have told me the same thing.

To be honest, I don't "enjoy" anything about it. This only makes me wonder if college is supposed to be the "best part of your life", (and its quite the opposite for me); then the the rest of my life should be pretty darn depressing.


Couldn't have put it better myself Steven Levy! The part about the consuming, Im here commenting to a comment that would never ammount to anything in the common society we know as human. Why do I waiste time? Apparently it consumes the part of life...::BLANK::.... O~~~~----______ ====~ (Fill) ('n) (Bla'k)


Get this guy a 'Real Doll'


With time, I have felt that loneliness, yet, after a couple of hours of being around people, I can't help but think about the work I could be doing, the wonders I could be exploring.


I feel the same. But I started to change my ways so I don't become too isolated.


I hear you. I have done the same for a couple of months at a time, and the interesting thing was that it happened spontaneously - it wasn't a conscious decision.

I do think that isolation partly exists within a person's mind, as I have felt isolated when surrounded by a roomful of people.

It's a part of our condition, a challenge that we must deal with successfully in order to hack on . . .




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