I worked at Microsoft around the time of the Windows Vista disaster, and one of the big lessons that came out of that era was solve distractions, not discoverability. Windows and other Microsoft products tried to make features (and products) "discoverable" by pushing them on you with alerts and banners, but the result, when multiplied by dozens of product teams and PMs, was an overall user experience that was noisy and unpleasant.
Looks like a new generation of engineers and designers is ready to learn this lesson the hard way again!
I have Windows 10 on my laptop and the other day it forced me to decide on if I wanted to update to Windows 11 or not in a "Now or Never" kind of way before even startup occurred... Even after a reboot, the computer was totally prevented from being useable until I answered the question, so I could not even search to see if it was an exploit, or even if the upgrade was successful for other users with the same model laptop as me.
It's very troubling to me how a device (that I paid a lot of money for mind you) would do this without any sort of courtesy, and in such a disrespectful manner. This is the issue with modern software development, even the things we buy can be suddenly changed at the drop of a dime into a subscription service cash cow for big industry and we'll have no choice of escaping it all. Consumer Protection has failed us totally because they too invested deeply into these extortionist big corporations. The ads will only get worse year after year because it's all shareholder driven, and they will likely lobby other software and hardware manufacturers to not support alternate options like Linux. Good luck everyone.
I feel your pain, and am feeling very disconcerted on my own behalf too, having Win 10 and no plans of upgrading until network externalities positively force me to stop using it (at which point I'll probably give Linux on the Desktop another shot instead of upgrading to Win 11).
But I'm finding it hard to believe that there isn't some escape hatch there. I absolutely cannot imagine that MSFT's corporate customers would play ball with something like that, and they still represent a powerful interest group where MSFT's decision-making is concerned. So there's got to be some escape hatch. Is it a Home vs Pro thing?
I used Windows 11 Home recently in a VM, and found it absolutely atrocious to use. It was genuinely one of the most disgusting things I have used on a computer in a while. It felt like one of the few times I tried to use an Android phone, and everything was filled with bloat everywhere you looked.
This was a very stark comparison to my experience on my machine that I use Win 11 Pro on, which has none of the advertising fluff, TikTok isn’t pre-installed and pushed onto me when I open the start menu. It just has the things I want, that I added, and use frequently in the start menu. I didn’t use any of those uninstall scripts that tend to gouge into the OS, but it was upgraded from Win10, which had been installed ~3 months earlier.
I have 11 pro and I did the ethernet bypass to avoid linking it to a cloud account but it's been making threatening gestures recently about "finishing setup." Is there a new technique?
It's funny how you make a terrible assumption about an OS base while explaining the difference between the different versions of another OS.
Android is a great base, and some OEMs customise it to hell, and add their "bloat". Some is genuinely terrible, some is interesting. There's always Google and Motorola phones ( at the very least) which give stock experience, and popular FOSS versions you can flash yourself if you fancy them more.
Compared to the iOS experience, if you don't like it, you're holding it wrong ( does iOS finally support anything else besides all your apps are plastered on the home screen, with optional folders? As someone who grew up arguing with people who just put everything on their Desktop, i twitch thinking of that).
very complaint about it is firewalled behind log-ins and many platforms are probably working hard to suppress negative words concerning the upgrade now too... I appreciate your experience summary. Hopefully I can continue running v10 until public sentiment sorts the BS out like I did with Win7.
Privately I have a Windows powered, now hardware wise obsolete, desktop and two Lenovo laptops (a main one and an old as backup). The main one is running Windows and Ubuntu. The only reasons the laptop is still running Windows are a handful of, mostly older, Steam games and MS Teams for the kids. And I was too lazy to install Linux on the desktop.
If it wasn't for MS Teams, Windows would be gone for a while now. No way I "upgrade" to Win11. Luckily, both laptops run professional Windows liscences, the backup one with only local accounts. So I hope that protects me from much of MS pressure to upgrade.
Being used to local software, with local accounts and without "telemetry", I see the benefit of tue cloud. Less for storage, but Steam is actually a charm for example. Overall so, I think software took head dive when it came to user experience, privacy and performance. The fact that my OS will be serving ads now in the file explorer can only be part of one of Dante's rings of hell...
As a long-time linux user, the MS teams linux client is woefully poor. It has ruined meetings for me by repeatedly losing the microphone. I use Windows more often for Teams meeting, and I'm not saying the Windows client is perfect in this regard either.
Kind of, because especially for my younger one the app is easy to use. Up to the point she gave me some Teams lessons. For myself I would propably go for the web solution, I developed a true antipathy for MS and Google lately. I never was a Mac / Apple person, so Linux and some open source, de-googled versions of Android are the weapobs of choice.
Employer provided hard- and software is a different story all together.
I came to the conclusion that it's nice to have a google and MS free environment. If Teams is needed, or a Windows only game, I can still boot Windows.
I dunno if it's a Home or Pro issue, but if things get really bad, people will just begin to venture back to computer stores (Off Torrent Street) in the urban part of town and get a bootleg copy of winblows 2024 as they did in the past, then company sales will drop and they'll need to re-evaluate everything all over again.
If Linux were so much better, more of us would have switched already. The fact that reasonable people continue to use Windows despite bullshit like this is evidence that Linux really isn't so much better[0]. I can't help but think that some vocal portion of the community continually insisting that it is better and blaming its lack of adoption on laziness, or lack of technical understanding, is a significant factor in keeping it from being better than it is.
That said, yeah, at this point Windows is becoming so bad that even I, a vocal Linux Desktop critic, must admit that soon Linux will at least be the less shitty of the two.
[0] at least not for the people who are still using Windows. Obviously some amount of this comes down to how and why any given person uses a desktop computer at all.
KDE Neon with KDE Plasma is way better than Windows.
I don't know what else to tell you. I am a moron, lazy and get easily frustrated.
I don't work in IT.
Installation is 15 minutes and everything just works perfect. There is no way people can have all these problems with Linux here if I can figure this out. If it was any type of frustration I would just stick with Windows.
I think many people here must just make things up about all these linux problems because it makes no sense to me at all.
I don't even know what a single directory outside of my /home directory is for.
As someone who works in IT, I know first hand how much things break in Windows everyday. If Windows was as perfect as people on the internet claimed, I would be out of a very well paying job.
With Linux, anything that goes wrong is almost certainly of own design.
I always feel bad for the developers of the better GUI Linux tools. It's not fair for people to compare solid efforts to commercial software with solid funding and huge userbases for feedback. Some of them are their own worst enemy, but most really do seem to try.
No, [Ardour, LMMS, Darktable, ...] aren't going to do as replacements (for the nth time), but it's not at all their fault. I also don't fault them or Linux as a whole for the people who badger about it while ignoring the needs of the person they're pestering, but not everyone is able to make that distinction, and it comes to reflect poorly on the software.
As for ports of the stuff I do use, it seems the fault is in the lack of cohesion. It's not free to assign developers to port to even a reasonably narrow subset of toolkits and libraries to target the most users, and having a lawyer go over the licenses to see about packing it in costs money. And they're not likely to ever recover that cost in sales: the people who want it are already using the Windows or Mac version, and the people they might sell to are already productive and skilled with Linux options.
They have been for me. Darktable does not feel like a compromise. The ability to edit skin from RAW made the need for other editors pretty small. I go to Hugin to stitch panoramas but that's about it.
> The fact that reasonable people continue to use Windows despite bullshit like this is evidence that Linux really isn't so much better
If you want actual evidence, you'd need to control for some variables like windows being preinstalled and about the only ads it got was Microsoft advertising "why not Linux" in the past. Right now you need to spend some effort to even give it a go.
Linux is not "better" per-se, it's simply a different set of trade-offs.
For us techies, having to occasionally fall back to the terminal to fix a hiccup is worthwhile not having to deal with Microsoft's recent BS.
For a non-technical user however, Microsoft's BS means they can still accomplish their task, albeit slowly and without privacy, while Linux will leave them completely stranded if something breaks because they have no clue how to fix it.
It doesn't help that the Linux world spreads itself thin on reinventing the same square wheel 10 times (and arguing/fighting about which wheel is best - think systemd vs other inits, desktop environments, etc) completely ignoring (or denying) the fact that the wheel is square.
> while Linux will leave them completely stranded if something breaks because they have no clue how to fix it.
Is Windows really much different in this respect?
My partner is not at all interested in tech, and they use Fedora Silverblue (at my suggestion) because it's less intrusive than Windows and it's hard to break. It seems to behave weirdly less often than Windows did.
(The only thing that didn't just work was the printer, but we poked around in the printer settings a bit, and now it works.)
If Windows did just work, they wouldn't have been willing to switch to Silverblue.
Linux is a lot better for developers, mostly because lots of developers use it, in a feedback cycle, but the fact that most of the system is open-source also helps.
It's also good if you just need to do one or two things and they happen to work on Linux. Some people install it on their grandma's internet PC.
Even a majority of Steam games seem to work on Linux now, via Valve's fork of Wine.
Depends on he kind of developer. Web developer? Probably. Game developer? It's a joke.
> Even a majority of Steam games seem to work on Linux now, via Valve's fork of Wine.
That at least is true, it's getting a lot better. However, VR is still a hell of a lot more problematic on Linux even if you're using Valve's hardware.
Like I said, a lot of it comes down to how and why you use a desktop computer in the first place.
I think it's better at technical things for any kind of developer or technical person, generally. (Even at non-technical things in some cases: KDE, as a desktop environment, wipes the floor with Windows's desktop environment, from the taskbar to the file manager.)
But if one developer's "better" includes "playing <AAA game with anticheat>" or "using Photoshop" or "using VR", the betterness is sharply decreased.
I count myself extremely lucky my need/want matrix has happened to align such that I'm much more comfortable on Linux than on Windows, but that alignment is sadly RNG. :p
I agree with this. I've stuck with Windows so far, just because of battery life and touch screen support, and a single Visual Basic macro that I'd have to write a replacement for. But I have to admit, those are some pretty slim threads tying me down to Windows. Some computers in my household are already on Linux.
Teams for Ubuntu works well enough.
Most people would still have a hard time switching to Ubuntu, but then again most people (outside of HN audience) have no use for the file manager, or are using work computers that somebody else is maintaining. The people who a) need Windows, and b) need to use something other than the browser, are a tiny minority who are also tech savvy enough to figure out some way to deal with this.
Where I see it as a dark pattern is, someone is trying to figure out how to do something on their Windows computer, and the first thing they see is an ad that looks like a help message, inviting them to install something that they have to pay for and exposes them to even more ads. It's like Clippy but takes your money.
>Please don't bootleg Windows. Even a pirate install counts as an install. Linux is so much better.
Sorry, not for my needs, it's not.
My powershell-gutted w10 pro runs the software i need with remarkably little fuss. I keep trying Linux every few years, but nope, not yet.
So, dis-connected from the netm and piracy it will be.
Linux is not "so much better" as you can more or less do ANY thing on both without a problem. I use only cross-platform apps, so the OS choice is not a problem to me: firefox, thunderbird, powershell, vscode, copyq, dbeaver, audacity, pircard, doublecmd, less etc. all work the same everywhere.
After using all OSes, Linux is still lacking vendor support that Windows has, so one needs les time and lower level knowledge then on Linux to setup some things.
What we need is bloat free Windows, only kernel and package manager like Chocolatey/scoop/winget.
MS's corporate customers using Exchange365 are getting Office365 pop-up ads. Office 2019 gets Office365 pop-up ads. MS Teams users are getting MS teams upsell pop-up ads. When these advertisements get sent to 9k corporate users, it causes a bunch of trouble tickets.
You should definitely switch to Linux. It works very nicely, but frankly even if it did not it is less infuriating dealing with technical issues that will probably be fixed eventually than tolerating daily disrespect from some corporate overlord who feels entitled to dictate how you use your computer.
It's like quitting social media - mildly inconvenient, vastly better for your mental health.
You have to use the enterprise "long term service branch" (or channel as i think it is now) if you want a sane version of Windows 10.
Most of the annoyances are removed from there, and you can stick with an older version and not be forced to take the "feature" updates, 1809 works well.
The only issue i had is their new Terminal app is not supported, i forget why. Last i read they were working on support, maybe it works now.
A local KMS activator will license it, then you don't worry about adverts in Explorer, for a few years at least...
> The only issue i had is their new Terminal app is not supported, i forget why. Last i read they were working on support, maybe it works now.
It does! It's a bit trickier than just getting it from the MS Store, because that's not a thing in Windows 10 LTSC, but you can install some dependencies and get Terminal from GitHub[1]. I just set it up a couple days ago on an LTSC virtual machine, and it works just fine.
But it’s basically impossible to buy for small numbers of computers legally. And when it’s possible, it’s crazy expensive. (no, those licenses on eBay are not legal.)
Also the base Windows is not updated, so you end up with weird issues with games, that expect newer Windows; but sometimes also normal software. And Store is not there, which you might actually miss.
Nah, this is Windows we're talking about. Pushing the user into doing a big install only to tell them it failed at the very end, after it has made a mess of the hard drive, is standard procedure.
TBH I'm in the same position right now with a Chromebook. I keep getting prompted for an upgrade, which I accept, it spins for a while, then fails, then spins for another while rolling everything back. At least it does that, rather than leaving me with partly-updated, likely unusable device.
This is my stance. Luckily my work has moved more and more off of microsoft over the years. I'm not buying a $2000 laptop to watch ads while I'm looking for a file
Mine just updated overnight without asking, after I rejected the update as much as i could. I was perplexed, wondering if the upgrade is being forced in more lenient countries.
In the Vista days they at least tried to do the right thing; it was still an era where computers were tools to serve the user, not to exploit/abuse them, most business models were still "sell a thing people need/want at a profit", and the current state of telemetry & ad-related tracking would've still been considered "spyware" and would've led to massive outrage and maybe even legal consequences.
Nowadays, they don't even try to do "the right thing", or at the very least, the meaning of "the right thing" has been corrupted in many parts of the tech industry. "Growth and engagement" is seen as a completely normal and valid business model and pervasive stalking (that would make spyware from a decade ago super jealous) became socially-accepted.
It used to be a tool which they gave you in exchange for money, now it's a platform which both of you share, and where they start messing around with your stuff whichever way they see fit.
You used to buy a desktop which you would take home and sit in front and do your work.
Now you buy a desktop which you take home and you get the seller sit on the other side of it, looking at your work, asking your questions, taking your papers, rearranging everything according to their newest ideas.
This is maybe the dominant pattern of bad software design: Writeups describe a good idea, umbrella terms emerge to refer back to it ("discoverability"), and inexperienced designers/engineers try to implement the idea based only on the one-word description and the common knowledge surrounding it, rather than actually learning about the topic it describes. (Maybe they took a corporate learning course on the topic, created by people with similarly inadequate competence on the topic). It's like a game of telephone taken to the logical extreme. They are attempting to use lessons from others' successes, but the end result is even worse than if the designers/engineers used nothing but their own common sense to architect in an information vacuum.
This particular cause of abysmal, insulting UX is common in new teams with no experience among the staff, but there's just no word for how embarrassing it is that Microsoft suffers from it so often too.
Why do you think they don't know this will be annoying but intend to do it anyway to shift revenue sources?
My personal opinion is:
Microsoft told us they see Windows 11 as the "last" version. From now on Windows is a service that pushes continuous updates. The OEM deals are still generating revenue but the strategy shift means no more selling retail upgrades.
It makes total sense that Microsoft would now prioritize adding new revenue sources. I would expect more "parterships", ads, telemetry/tracking, and so forth. The money is just too juicy and Windows is slowly transitioning to be a cost center instead of revenue center which makes the pressure to find revenue even higher. Plus with PC upgrade cycles getting longer and the overall PC market somewhat leveling off (days of 50% yoy growth are long gone) revenue was going to stagnate no matter what.
Microsoft employs a lot of smart people. They know users don't want any of this. The desire to find new revenue is a higher priority. Anyone not on-board with the "Windows client versions are now a 'marketing channel' and 'partnership opportunity'" will leave or find themselves reorg'd to "align business priorities".
Is writing some new feature going to move the needle after the OEMs fill the system up with spyware/adware? It isn't going to increase PC sales by 20% this year so it isn't going to generate more OEM license sales and zzzzzzz (look the VPs already fell asleep during your presentation).
Is fixing bugs going to get kudos, or just create more support tickets as your bug fix accidentally breaks some old garbage "business critical" software relying on the broken behavior? It sure isn't going to sell more copies of Windows since that isn't something MS does anymore.
But putting ads in Explorer and generating $50m in new revenue? Now that will get you a promotion and bonus!
Until Apple moved on, then obviously they had to respond, because waging a version number war is better than actually making a decent, usable OS.
Hint: people don't buy Macs because they're at version 11 (or 12 now), they buy it because the experience is much more polished than whatever Microsoft has been puking out in the last decade.
I'm not sure about you, but "developer evangelist" sounds pretty rank and file to me. Searching his name he's apparently now a "Senior Software Engineer" on linkedin (can't click in, getting a login wall), which supports this.
You'd think that something as important as "we won't ever launch more editions of our most popular piece of software ever" would be disseminated more widely and across more channels than one "developer evangelist" interview in a conference? If that's real (ie. some sort of position that senior management actually approved), that is.
I don't doubt he thought he was telling the truth, or that there was a general sense within the organization that windows 10 was going to get continually updated rather than having new editions every 3 years. Windows 10 did adopt this model for 6 years. But painting it as some sort of official promise from the organization seems tenuous.
Right, I concede that "developer evangelist [...] at the company's Ignite conference" is slightly more reputable than just "random dev". That said I don't believe it materially changes the argument.
I don't know why the people hate Vista, but it was my favorite Windows version ever. I like the glowing transparent bars so much in it. It was first, as far as remember. Some KDE window managers also had it but windows's was so much better. I think it is also important, I find it very attractive when the title bars are glowing and transparent.
Yes I remember driver compatibility issues, especially for graphics drivers. It was running it with some sort of undergraded flag and disabling enhanced visual mode, and actually with that flag, the windows vista looked and worked like Windows XP. I think Windows is the best when it comes to backward compatibility in comparison with others. Correct me if I'm wrong.
Yes! Even though I prefer "flat" instead skeuomorphism, which imposes real materials (wooden, notebook, etc) in a 2d surface (a display), I think. Glowing-glass looks much more realistic and complete.
Well clearly windows is not the only OS, so your thesis seems inaccurate. It's not even the only PC OS, arguably there are 2 serious Desktop OS's, Windows and MacOS. With Linux desktop a very distant 3rd.
On servers there is Linux and Windows Server, with a few minor 3rds (BSD maybe?).
On phones there are 2, 3rd place quit.
In the cloud there are 2 providers in AWS and Azure. With Google a distant 3rd.
Are you spotting a trend? Seems like each platform will support 2 to 3 players, usually with one dominant, one subordinate, and possibly one or two also-rans.
When the platform is new there's lots of variety, but as the sector matures so the 2 winners emerge.
Turns out that OSs are only as good as their developer community, and developers will support 1 or 2 platforms, not more. So 3rd place exists on scraps with few users and fewer developers.
This has nothing to do with what a generation decides - each platform has a winner and a follower, and little else.
To change the OS you have to change the platform, or invent a new one. Or maybe 2nd can overtake first (chrome over firefox/ie) but examples of that are rare.
So don't be blaming a generation, the players are just the players - the game is the game.
hard not to be flippant, but <10% of the market share going to MacOS does not make it a "serious" competitor, especially not in business where it's probably closer to ~5% if even that.
And all of that ~5% are going to be graphic designers, video editors, etc. With the occasional executive who insists on using a mac because it's all they know at home.
statcounter.com lists MacOS as 15% of global desktop market share [1]. It's a bit more in some markets (25% in NA) and a bit less in others (5% in South America), and anecdotally dominant in some niches (US Startups, EU designers, etc). But I think your point stands that Windows is the overwhelming majority of the market, MacOS a distant second and everyone else barely notable (ChromeOS ranks above Linux).
15% of billions is a lot. While the exact number of desktops is likely unknown, its safe to assume MacOS has several hundred million users. I'd suggest that as serious.
But it merely reflects my point that there tends to be one big player in most markets. Android / ios is also skewed (globally) but ios is very much a player.
You don't have to be number 1 to be in the game, but past number 2 it's very hard to break in. And if number 2 is strong, close to impossible.
I don't think that's really fair. I know enough former Microsoft employees and was one long ago enough to know that they don't really listen to us unless we're the team that designed it.
Removing the start button was a classic example, and there is or was plenty of unrest in the walls of Microsoft around all the data being collected.
I am more than confident there are 10s of thousands of employees that are either resigned in disappointment or actively annoyed at what Microsoft has done here with these ads, just like the Skydrive ads before them.
Disclosure: worked for Microsoft a long time ago. My views, obviously, do not reflect their values.
> In other words: the last generation did not train the new one, and usability is expected to suffer.
Probably is the case, however, a learned lesson sticks better than a taught lesson. Or at least that's my hypothesis as to why our industry ends up operating in a cycle of relearning past lessons.
Have a look at the adobe acrobat interface, I can't believe how complicated it is, and often comes up with prompts, side menus, adverts for other versions, and a tiny space to actually view your file.
I regret that the computing experience in 2022 has to be so atrocious. But it is necessary to understand that general computing has its limit when the user does not want to make the effort to have independence [to educate themselves on the operation of a von Neumann machine].
There is a whole GNU/Linux ecosystem [as well as a few others], mature and reliable. I even feel sorry for the user who, for one reason or another, prefers to be spoon fed by the Windows system. As you can see, there is a price to pay for the convenience of ignorance [hey, everybody uses Windows!].
Or it may be that general computing, the noble goal of bringing computing for the masses, is just an illusion, and cannot be done without gatekeepers like MS.
So, I'm building a gaming PC for my kids. One of them started playing fortnite with his friends during covid, to keep in touch. He would like it on the gaming PC. Fortnite does not run on Linux. What do you suggest? If it helps, I have been personally running linux since 2002 or so, starting with Slackware, then Gentoo, then back and forth from Arch to Ubuntu. I am a developer and use linux daily. I would love to hear what I should use instead of windows.
> Fortnite does not run on Linux. What do you suggest?
Don't play Fortnite. Skip the game that was designed to rip off your money instead of entertaining your kids, and teach your kids something useful like programming their own games.
On the one hand, I want to downvote you for the typical "change your usecase" response, but on the other hand Fortnite and its ilk are designed to be addictive and rip people off and reducing their influence in your kids' life is probably a good idea.
Build them a PC with Linux to learn what you have learned about it.
And buy a PS5 for Fortnite. Other popular games are released cross platform anyways. Consoles are much easier to handle in the long run. Their business model is less intrusive…
Precisely. Developers hate users because users are the ones who want them to do things like fix bugs and make software reliable, which isn't as fun as cramming in new features and rewriting things in new languages and frameworks. Even open source software suffers from this, just look at GNOME.
It's very charitable to assume that they just don't understand. Personally I think they understand perfectly well that ads reduce the value of their offering but don't care because money.
today a new stupid applet appeared on the taskbar, and it defaulted to italian, picking up language from the location (without even asking permission to geolocate me first!) instead of my os language.
it's not just the nagware, the whole system experience is shit because it's so inconsistent.
I run a english language / italian keyboard, and every update it decides to reset my keyboard to english layout.
I wished a lot more companies would learn that lesson. It is such a pain when you have to use some software and then you get the popups about new features. The features may be brilliant, but right now I don't care. I am doing something.
Yet somehow PMs never realize that if they let the features be visible in the corner, I would click on them in 10 seconds when I am done with what I am doing and would actually want to read them.
No, I don't need an "easier way to do X, Y" or whatever else your obtuse program manager decided would get them a promotion.
I'm operating a 2-ton vehicle in traffic, so THE EASIER WAY would be to not obscure 50% of my phone screen, making me take eyes away from the road for an extra 2-3 seconds.
Hint for anyone reading this at google - it's in the name. Maps. That's all I want from your app, UNLESS I am specifically searching for Food/Hotels/Groceries. Also, please stop doing a UI redesign every year.
No, I don't need a pop-up if you want to reroute me around an accident. If it's faster - just reroute me, if it's not - don't.
As much as I prefer Google Maps's routing functionality, this is one thing that admittedly Apple Maps gets right in its UI; when you open it, there's a map, a search box, and my search history.
Google Maps used to be that, until PMs took over pushing random new features. No, Google, I did not open your maps app so I could see "what's new", and have no desire to do that. Even the search history is broken -- it now uses some inscrutable logic to decide whether or not a previous search is worthy of inclusion into the past searches list.
Yes, I check traffic much often than looking for Food/Hotels/Groceries, but somehow the toggle for traffic is hidden behind a small layer icon, while Food/Hotels/Groceries occupy the top of the screen.
I like all the things in Google Maps that you disagree with. Maybe you're just not the target audience and should switch to an app that works better for your needs? Google Maps does automatically choose the better route if it finds one, but it gives you time to cancel that action if you'd like before it switches.
Settings are supposed to exist, despite what corner-cutting suits would like to believe.
Different people do have different needs, and it's clear that Google Maps attempts to reach a wide audience since it's both a map, business directory, and navigation service.
If it must ask, offer "always pick faster route" and "always follow planned route" buttons on first use and in a menu somewhere.
I mean always follow planned route kinda goes counter to the whole point of navigating with Google Maps. Google Maps uses live traffic data and user reports to determine the best route. I don't see why they would add these features and then offer an option to just ignore those features and instead use a fixed route. There are many other apps that offer that. Even just downloading a paper map off Mapquest would accomplish that similar goal.
I think we all know by now Google goes for the simply route that asks the least of a user. Google is well known for not providing much customization and basically forcing you to use it a certain way. And clearly this model works with the popularity they have. I know us powerusers don't always like this kind of thing, but for regular users this is the way that seems to work best.
Yes but what I mentioned does not require any interaction, it still does change the route to a faster one without having to do anything. I don't see how that makes a difference in safety?
I am not worried about people using a GPS on the road, I am worried about the people I've seen who are scrolling through their social media feeds and watching videos that play in the feeds and everything. Or the people sending big text messages, the people who are having conversations with passengers and for some reason always have to look at the person to speak rather than keeping their eyes on the road, etc....
> Yes but what I mentioned does not require any interaction, it still does change the route to a faster one without having to do anything. I don't see how that makes a difference in safety?
It makes a difference for people (like myself) who very much don't want the route to change automatically. It means that some attention has to be paid to the app so you can tap the screen in time to make it stop, and it means that you have a time-limited action that you must perform. Two things that add to the cognitive load and distraction.
The main problem is that if the company's model is "growth and engagement", the objective of the company is for you to "engage" with them (and look at the ads or whatever dark pattern they're pushing). It is not to help you accomplish whatever task you were trying to do with their product. The "product", if it's there, is merely a necessary evil to convince the users to "engage" with it.
The PM couldn't care less about whether it interrupts your flow - he just knows that interrupting the flow of millions of people will net them that next promotion and a nice "increased engagement by double-digit percentages" bullet point on the resume. The company executives don't care either, because they know that boasting about the increased engagement figures will make their stock price go up.
By the time the degraded experience causes actual repercussions for the company (if it ever does - it won't if they've got a monopoly), both the aforementioned PM and executives will be long gone and will already have cashed out.
Vista broke 30% market share meaning that MS can push terrible UX and get away with it. Further, in the Vista era there was a more palpable reduction in performance that doesn't seem to be happening.
MS has made their calculation, and it may lead to more revenue.
> tried to make features (and products) "discoverable" by pushing them on you with alerts and banners, but the result, when multiplied by dozens of product teams and PMs, was an overall user experience that was noisy and unpleasant.
> Looks like a new generation of engineers and designers is ready to learn this lesson the hard way again!
You mean product managers? I’m not sure what engineers and designers have to do with this. My guess is that they know it’s stupid, tried to shut it down and failed.
This is tangental to the topic, but we must create a notion of Obligation in society to both actively teach and learn from those who have gone before us.
I look forward to the Microsoft brigade telling me again that none of the following exists:
- ads in file explorer
- ads on the lockscreen
- ads as notifications
- ads in the start menu
- ads in the "change file association" dialog
- ads in the apps (e.g. solitaire)
- mandatory updates that cannot be disabled and reboot your machine without asking
- pc turning itself on in the middle of the night OR when in my backpack to install updates
- un-disableable spyware ("telemetry")
Windows would be classed as malware by the 2002 definition
>> Windows would be classed as malware by the 2002 definition
Literally. And adware by the mid-00's definition. Like, I can't understand why they'd do this. I really can't. What a joke. Do people still work on the Windows project who are proud of what they do anymore?
You gotta think, there's an actual team of real, live, people at Microsoft who decided that getting paid enough would be worth it to put this shit in and degrade millions and millions of people's daily experiences using their software.
If I ever become that person, may I rot. I just could never see selling out to that level and living with myself.
Honestly I imagine the people working on Windows have drank the Kool-aid. They think this is what people want. The ads are “relevant suggestions”. Pre installed Candy crush is “awesome, everyone wants that!”. Telemetry to them is “learning about the users needs”. And there’s a grain of truth in all of these.
It's always been a mystery to me who these users are, the ones that do not care about the VD that comes pre-installed with OEM's or with the OS itself. But working with support has taught me that a lot of people really have no idea where the OS ends and third party apps begins. Candy crush pre-installed? Must be part of Windows.
I guess they do not think of those as "ads" but more like suggestions, or tips to the user. (Not defending it, they would be clearly doing mental gymnastics if that were the case -- they absolutely are ads.) If they said the word "ad", they'd be referring to content from 3rd parties.
Does anyone make a serious OS for people who need to get real work done on their computer anymore?
Some recent frustrations with the big 3 OSs:
1. MacOS: The File>Save dialog has a unchangeable 35 character limit for what can be viewed in the file name field. WTF?! It's like these jokers have never worked in a real office where people create documents with dictated naming conventions like [Customer Name]_[Project Name]_[Project subtask]-[Date]. Maybe they think it is a way to force businesses to use Tags? Dear Apple, your OS seems toy like.
2. Linux: There is an age old Ubuntu bug (which bleeds into many Ubuntu based Distributions) where the installer wipes out the bootloader of a drive that you aren't even installing the OS on. Dear open source community: your desktop OSs are still hobbyist tweaker mode. I
3. Windows: First data mining telemetry and now you are going to show me ads? Dear MS, you keep trying to be Google or Facebook and all it has done is undermine a once serious OS.
(note that this is just a "what pissed me off this week list" and not intended to be a comprehensive criticism)
I ask mainly because I came to a realization not too long ago that I stopped using Windows back when 7 was released. It's been a bumpy road, but my last few installs in the past half-decade were more for fun (spring cleaning) or trying out a new distro, and not because I borked my system running errant commands.
Especially if you're not using bleeding edge hardware, almost all things just work.
I know you'll bring up the usual refrains of "hey how about that hibernate function in linux?" or "how are your video drivers lately?", and while they're all legitimate points, Windows has got its own fair share of "wtfs" that Windows users are all too quick to gloss over.
Maybe I'm being a bit of an old man here (mid-30s), but I remember booting into a fresh XP install and having nothing work properly. No video drivers, no ethernet, no wifi, no sound... it usually led to a full day of installing drivers. You'll probably say Windows is better now, and it probably is. Again, I just haven't used Windows in over a decade.
I don't remember the last time I logged into a fresh linux install and didn't have ethernet.
Linux Mint wiped out the boot loader on my Intel MacBook even though I was installing it on an external drive. I'm much older and agree that some modern Linux distributions are smoother than old-school Windows. I am just pointing out that Linux still requires a lot of unnecessary time suck due to it being in the "hobbyist tweaker" category.
On a macbook you're in hobbyist territory unfortunately, with Linux. It doesn't even work on various recent years of macbooks, due to various ways Apple locked things down.
Same goes for MS Surface hardware - you _can_ get it working, but there are more hoops to jump through.
Try it on less locked down and more open hardware and you'll have more reliable results.
> On everything but the server, you're a hobbyist with Linux, unfortunately.
That's far from true. On reasonably non-esoteric desktop hardware it's robust. On most laptops (unless you're using an external 4K screen) it's also perfectly fine.
> On reasonably non-esoteric desktop hardware it's robust. On most laptops (unless you're using an external 4K screen) it's also perfectly fine.
I hate when people trying to defend Linux prepend their "defenses" with "most X", "reasonably Y". Because once the the counterexamples of stuff not working in Linux show up, they just shield on "well, I didn't say all of them", "well, it works for me".
Look, I've been a Linux developer and power user for 20 years, I've compiled Linux Kernels several time, I've tinkered with OSS, ALSA, Pulse, WinModem firmwares, USRobotic modems, SSD/Trim params, Bluetooth, printers, games, graphic cards, countless Linux versions and whatnot.
My current PC is Linux Mint exclusively (I even play on it using steam ), but being realistic, it is NOT the case that Desktop Linux is "robust" on PCs or Laptops. There is always something, there will always going to be an issue that will make you have to tinker with it one way or another always.
And there's always something on Windows laptops/PCs too.
I use Debian (current stable and Sid) and Arch Linux on my workstation (12000 series Alder Lake i7), laptop (X1 Carbon Gen 9), desktop pc at my birth home (Ryzen 3000 series + AMD GPU) and desktop pc in my flat (haswell i7 + NVIDIA 1080), and while I'm pretty good with Linux I'm also having a very low tolerance for basic things (audio, wifi, bluetooth noise-cancelling headset for travel, graphics) not working.
All of aforementioned works everywhere, graphics work even fine for the quite new Alder Lake iGPU, and I use Windows quite a bit for testing as customers still use it, it's just bad how much broken stuff there is on Windows that needs magnitudes of more hacks than I had ever to do on Linux, or how (relatively) often a machine just stops booting at all without any HW fault (I've got 0% tolerance for that one).
But apparently the bar is set low for Windows while being very high on Linux.
All needs to work out of the box 110% perfectly like everybody's subjective use case expects on Linux.
You wouldn't buy a computer that doesn't run Windows to try to duct tape Windows to it. I've been buying laptops with Linux supported from the manufacturer for 5 years now and I have fewer of the problems I do on my work Windows machine.
Just to give you an idea of the problems on my P15s running Windows:
* I have to run ThrottleStop to stop the built-in thermal limits from limiting my computer's performance to 500 MHz.
* I have to run TpFanControl so my laptop doesn't sound like it's initiating a jet engine test at my desk (this is with or without ThrottleStop so don't blame it)
* The Xbox app frequently freezes my entire machine (I wanted to try out Xbox Game Pass on a work machine, I know sorry)
* My little nipple trackpoint will sometimes stop working, requiring a full system reboot
* The Task Scheduler often freezes up
* There's a printer driver that errors when updated by Windows Update. It prevents other system updates from being installed. I had to hide the driver, which requires a PowerShell script
On my macOS work machine at my job previous to this one:
* full system freezes when waking while docked to my Samsung ultrawide
On my current Linux laptop, a XPS 13 that shipped with Ubuntu:
* very rarely doesn't wake if it screen blanks without me closing the lid
* I've had audio issues in Zoom a few times
If you want to use Windows, that's fine but maybe just point out that you prefer using Windows and not subject the rest of us to your tirades against why Linux users are suffering under their own illusions. Those illusions are well-shared by our Windows-using counterparts.
I want to apologize for my last comment where I say you shouldn't subject to rest of us to your tirades. That's not in the spirit of HN.
Kindly put, I really think it's important to cultivate a diversity of people using OSes. If someone enjoys macOS or Windows more, more power to them. My only regret would be to see a mono-culture of OSes at work develop.
But the thing is, there _isn't_ always something. Again, this is anecdata, but I am running Pop!_OS on a XPS 13 9370, and exactly zero things have gone wrong. Everything worked out of the box.
Suspend is a battery sucker, but surprise surprise, this also happens on Windows because of s2idle shenanigans.
> There is always something, there will always going to be an issue that will make you have to tinker with it one way or another always.
That's just not true. To give you additional anecdata: my (non technical, fairly old) father was constantly struggling with his Windows install and I was having to help out every few months. I put him on Ubuntu and showed him how to accept patches. It's been rock solid since. This was back in 2010.
> The act of using Linux outside of the server context for a personal machine is hobbyist.
I don't know how you arrive at that, unless you're trolling or haven't gone that deep on Linux. Linux is a far better development environment for many languages and ecosystems than Windows, and Mac (granted of course that you'll have a much better time on Windows with .NET, etc). I've been forced to use both now and again in various jobs over the years and have always gone back to Linux.
Mac is better for non-programming office software, and Windows has better games support.
I've never met a person that thinks Numbers is better than Excel. Word, too. Keynote is popular, of course, for Mac OS X.
I made a poor definition of "personal machine". It did not include development. Developing software at home and for fun is, of course, a relatively niche hobby; but, I will grant you that Linux is a very, very good development environment.
Mac OS X is pretty great for photographers and cinematographers, etc.
At least as of 2020 (https://www.netmarketshare.com/operating-system-market-share...), Windows had 87% market share, Mac OS had about 10.7, and Linux had 1.7. IT looks like it was based around UserAgent checking? Which means it would include software developer's worker machines when they log into random websites, as well.
You're using the words "better experience", etc; but, perhaps the problem here is that we're not using the same definition of "hobbyist". Product quality had nothing to do with hobbyist in my definition. It was more "support expectations".
> Developing software at home and for fun is, of course, a relatively niche hobby
My multiple decade tech career is not exactly a hobby. Developing software, perhaps relatively niche among white collar workers.
> perhaps the problem here is that we're not using the same definition of "hobbyist"
I don't know what you're trying to prove, but smaller market share does not equate to hobby status. That's like saying that driving a Volvo is a hobby. Anyway, it's been a discussion but not particularly profitable, so have fun in another thread :)
I buy laptops with Linux pre-installed. Works fine without tinkering. And vastly more performance on a given set of hardware than Windows (by observation of my kids that insisted on Windows).
One time Windows 10 wiped the boot loader on my desktop and threw a fit until I formatted the whole disk so it could place itself first unlike the partition I thought I had assigned it.
Then I reinstalled windows 10 on the same computer a couple of years later and the installer couldn't even format my drive to install it, just threw bland "not working" errors until I manually formatted and installed the windows bootloader from a rescue drive.
This sounds like a user error. Every Linux installer I've seen will ask which device you want the bootloader files on. Most will even warn of an unbootable install if you don't specify a valid EFI partition if you're installing to GPT disks. Making the EFI partition is also extremely easy. You just need to use a tool like GParted to make a 500MB FAT32 partition at the start of a drive somewhere.
Apple Macs also have notoriously difficult firmware (only made to boot macOS or Windows via Bootcamp with special drivers). You should try something designed to cope with its pure awfulness like the rEFInd bootloader instead of GRUB or whatever systemd uses.
Did you set it to install the bootloader on the external drive? I'm not so sure it's a bug as preference to put the bootloader on sda or whatever the first drive is. You can definitely change it.
I've had MacOS kill a day trying to get gdb working but I could never get it properly working with codesign despite following multiple tutorials to do exactly that. I've also had Windows decide to do things like sliently update my tablet rotation driver to one that actually doesn't work with the hardware. They can all be unnecessary time sucks.
Im trying to switch and my Ubuntu install on a 8 series Intel laptop keeps the cpu freq stuck at 800mhz. If I manually change the governor’s min freq it goes up, but it’s not dynamic. Sadness. Updated to the latest mainline kernel and no luck. These are basic things that should work by now. But hey, I’m not contributing to the project and I’m not paying for it so I can’t complain much. Just unfortunate that I can’t start using the system without having to spend hours figuring this out
Most truly serious professionals I know are either using macOS with Homebrew or Arch Linux. They’ve accepted they need to take managing their OS into their own hands because anyone else will bungle the job. They spend a few weeks to learn their OS’ internals in depth and then rarely lose significant time troubleshooting issues in the future.
Ah I knew that there would be an Arch user somewhere around here. Meanwhile I've used Ubuntu for over a decade with virtually zero issues and during that decade Arch users both newb and old have continued to declare there is only one true OS and that I'm doing it wrong while I tell them "I'm glad you enjoy your OS"
Engineering is the art of solving problem within constraints ;)
Jokes aside, every O/S essentially needs periodic maintenance, in the form of workarounds, that needs to be applied on every major update. That's just how it works - O/Ss and hardware became too complex to get a handle.
I've found that Linux distros require a lot of work upfront, and relatively little every couple of years (assuming a distro with an LTS release schedule).
I think Mac is similar, except that the work upfront is considerably less.
I'm also familiar with Windows, but I frankly find new developments very offensive, in particular, those on Windows 11, so I ended up sticking with a relatively untweaked Window 10 (used only for specific use cases, thankfully).
The only solution in order to have a very stable system, is to choose a platform and stick with it. Given the ease of switch, I do see engineers switching machine and O/S, illuding themselves of finding a more stable experience, and ending up instead with a lot "upfront" work each time, without managing to stabilize the system.
Been using Linux Mint as primary driver for over a year now. It works flawlessly. I have _zero_ patience for debugging and tweaking my OS. I want to work, not tweak Linux. I used to love tweaking back in Ubuntu 7 Feisty Fawn. Now that I'm in my 30s I don't give a shit.
Take this as a glowing endorsement of Linux Mint. Try it. You won't waste time with bullshit.
I agree that Mint is pretty good. I use it on a few older laptops with decent results, but Mint also wiped out the Boot loader on my Intel MacbookPro :(
> There is an age old Ubuntu bug (which bleeds into many Ubuntu based Distributions) where the installer wipes out the bootloader of a drive that you aren't even installing the OS on
Can you link bug report? Personally I never encountered it (and while I had some corruptions over time I would say that Windows is even worse here and I would not call it to be in hobbyist tweaker mode)
I've encountered a couple of times. In my case it screwed up the bootloader of a hackintosh macOS install on a drive the installer gave no indication it was going to do anything to.
Thankfully fixing it wasn't too bad, but it shouldn't have happened in the first place. No other distro I've installed shares this problem.
> Linux: There is an age old Ubuntu bug (which bleeds into many Ubuntu based Distributions) where the installer wipes out the bootloader of a drive that you aren't even installing the OS on. Dear open source community: your desktop OSs are still hobbyist tweaker mode. I
Never saw that happen on any Linux installation (mostly using Debian, with one Arch Linux instance to avoid getting to accustomed to the Debian Way, though).
What I often saw once I still dual-booted Windows 7 and (IIRC) OpenSUSE ~11-14 years ago was that Windows destroyed the Linux bootloader entry, while on Linux GRUB + os-detect automatically setup one for Linux and Windows, so I always had to install Windows first and then Linux as else stuff was broken due to Windows not caring about existing user data at all.
Same story with USB pen drives, once I used a FAT formatted one on Linux and then plugged it into Windows it always had "format drive" selected by default, mounting was a slightly hidden menu entry (so it could read it just fine, it rather was a bad UX pattern)
I mean, you can do an OS yourself, or you can learn how to use an existing OS, I use Gentoo GNU/Linux and do things manually, never got the boot driver wiped as I do the partitioning myself, and also do the partitioning when I use some more userfriendly distros (on my work laptop because compiling on laptops is not nice so I won't use gentoo there). But yeah I mean you complain a lot, but for OSX and Windows you have no chance of resolving your issues, on linux you just need to be capable and willing to understand and read some documentation and you're good to go, but it seems that in your situation you're the main problem, because unwilling to be restricted by proprietary systems but also unwilling to learn, so it seems like we need to make an OS built on your preference while you just "want to get work done", why should we do that? Be restricted or learn to learn
>on linux you just need to be capable and willing to understand and read some documentation
If it were really as simple as reading the official documentation, then yeah, I'd concede this point. The reality is that finding the correct solution to a (non-corner case) problem is a spaghetti splat mess of links all over the internet with no guarantee that they are the answer you need.
I have been doing this stuff for more decades than many on this site have been alive so I am capable of dealing with some arcane shit. BUT I know all too well the value of time and Linux is still in the "hobbyist tweaker" category. I'll use it for some things, but I am looking for a Desktop OS that I can actually do work on, not kill time tweaking.
And this is a issue with linux or solvable by linux because..? I mean if vendors didn't do CAD for windows, windows wouldn't have a quality CAD software either, ask your vendor to make the quality CAD for linux
Fair enough, but I think that there are either alternatives, but also this was no the issue listed, the issue listed is like very easily solvable, I think the solution might even be on the getting started / installation guide of most distributions
Yeah that is fair, there is a lot of people who need certain software which is not available on linux, but I was wondering what can the linux community do? I mean the guy at the parent comment described a problem which was easily solvable, and other people instead decsribed problems on which linux has no control over, if the vendor of the software you need for you business doesn't bother to create a software you need for your business for linux, bring it to the vendor of the software you need for you business, not to linux
I could be a problem the linux community could do nothing about (and still be a problem). But lets see:
- maybe a lot of companies dont do it because there is no awareness that customers want it?
- maybe companies do not know how to develop cross platform
So ppl shd tell manufactures that they would be willing to pay money for linux applications.
Also the cross platform development should be smoothed and well documented. Like write a document (and give some talks) how to easily migrate a win32 programm to. Linux and a dot net program. If it is not easy, make it easier.
Also do the same for licensing/copyprotection on linux.
For some reason padding has been growing over the last few releases of macOS, and font sizes too, which means that things with long titles are now truncated everywhere ...
I remember when we Mac users made fun of DOS with their 8 char file names (HFS supported 32).
Now we can have even longer filenames, but macOS only shows them truncated...
I beg you to create a bunch of files with >35 char names and then try to work with them. I bet you'll be looking at all that wasted blank space before and after the text box and wanting to scream WTF at the dev team that lets this obnoxious user experience stand.
Tell me about it. I tried to source LTSC with an MS partner for a while, you basically need a volume licensing setup to get anywhere. It was hinted you could get away with 1 LTSC license and 4 cheap CALS to fill in the volume requirement but then I questioned why I was jumping through Microsofts arbitrary licensing hoops just to run a less horrible version of the OS.
For years I've been customising Windows installs towards that state with hacky scripts and PE environments. It's the near perfect distribution of windows for me, kept just tantalisingly out of reach.
> 2. Linux: There is an age old Ubuntu bug (which bleeds into many Ubuntu based Distributions) where the installer wipes out the bootloader of a drive that you aren't even installing the OS on. Dear open source community: your desktop OSs are still hobbyist tweaker mode.
Maybe that's true, but ...
I had a very similar thing happen on Windows 10. I set up a new SSD in order to install a new version of Windows with the idea that I would switch out the old SSD to an external drive.
No big deal. So, I installed Windows on the new drive. Set everything up. Life looked good. I removed the old SSD.
And the system wouldn't boot. WTF?!?!
Turns out that if there is already a Windows bootloader then the Windows installer will put your boot information on it even if you tell it otherwise. You can't force an install and bootloader onto a new drive if it detects an existing install anywhere.
I had to remove the old drive, remformat the new drive, and completely reinstall so Windows would install the boot partition and boot loader properly.
Most enterprises are using AD domain or Azure AD joined Windows 10 or 11 PCs. With an IT admin that tries to turn off as much that crap as possible. + Office 365 for email, Teams, Office apps etc.
Linux on the desktop is not really doable. Why? GPO/Intune polices. Interoperability with other companies/customers.
Same for Mac. JAMF or Intune MDM would need to be added.
Linux Mint. Sure, you will have some quirks with any Linux distro if you install on a Macbook (blame Apple), but it is by far the easiest to use, most well supported "productivity" distro I have ever used.
> 2. Linux: There is an age old Ubuntu bug (which bleeds into many Ubuntu based Distributions) where the installer wipes out the bootloader of a drive that you aren't even installing the OS on. Dear open source community: your desktop OSs are still hobbyist tweaker mode.
Then stop using Ubuntu. But, to be fair, the whole Ubuntu/Debian installation scene is quite a facepalm. The installer is overly complicated and completely undocumented. Also, they didn't really account for any serious customization.
Yes, the 3 "real OS"es are: Gentoo (high skill cap, high payoff), Arch (medium skill cap, high payoff), and Void (arch minus systemd plus a nicer package manager). Everything else is opinionated / dumbed down enough to be in the same quality bucket as windows, I usually think of Canonical and Microsoft as the same company these days.
One issue I have with macOS is their dialog navigation. Whenever I get the dialog like saving change dialog in Preview when using Command + Q combo, I cannot use my arrow keys to move to the lower/next button in the dialog. I have to use my mice like a peasant! It is not an issue in Linux and Windows, just curious why Apple can't add that?
The last tike I installed an OS myself, before Ubuntu and a new, clean Windows on my laptops, was Windows 2000. Ubuntu was actually easier to get running on the daily driver then a clean, local account only Windows 10 on the back up. No problems with Ubuntu whatsoever, not sure how much of that is due to Ubuntu or Lenovo so.
To be realistic: Windows and MacOS are both great for getting "real work done".
I've never had an issue with this "35 character file save prompt" limit, and I cannot imagine it would be a dealbreaker even if I did.
Telemetry is irrelevant to getting "real work" done, assuming its implemented in a way which doesn't impact performance, and I've never had an issue on Windows. What you're talking about is privacy concerns, which are very, very legitimate; and have nothing to do with "real work".
Some things are more productive in Mac, others are more productive in Windows. I'll die on this hill: Microsoft Paint is a top 5 productivity application for me. If I need to quickly take an image, layer a second image on top of it, resize, and add some text; there's nothing more productive than Paint for that. The result looks like shit, but its productive. The ability to hit Win+Shift+S, screenshot a part of the screen, then immediately paste it somewhere? Huge. MacOS has nothing like this; it has all the same basic tools, but they don't tie together to enable the same velocity; even the screen clipping tool takes like 5 seconds for the image to leave the screen corner and hit the filesystem. Notepad is another example; I open notepad and can immediately start typing. On MacOS, I can open Notes, CMD+N to get a new note, it defaults to formatting for the title but at least that works; or you can do TextEdit, and you're presented with a "create a new document" dialog; no thanks. Little moments which add up.
But where does MacOS pull ahead? If I need to edit a video? Windows has nothing for me; maybe DaVinci, but its hyper-pro level tooling. iMovie is great, and years ago I splurged on the buy-once-and-done FCPX subscription: its fantastic. Photo editing beyond what Paint can do? No, I'm not paying $200/month for Photoshop; maybe you can try GIMP, but I'm using my $20 og Pixelmator purchase from a decade ago, it works great (ugh I guess I should support them and buy the new one). All the UNIX tooling of course. Need some light CAD? I love Shapr3D; and I'm super happy to see its coming to Windows soon, but traditionally its been an Apple-only thing. In short: MacOS owns Prosumer-tier software; Pro-Pro tier stuff tends to be on Windows+Mac (like, Adobe), but there's a ton of cool software right below that which is Mac-only.
Linux is the one OS where I have broad issues getting work done. If I'm developing a website or a web app? Sure, it works as good as anything else (better than Windows to be fair). But go beyond that and there are dragons. A juxtoposition of trying to make mediocre web apps or libre software work for workloads which should be native. CAD? No Fusion360, no Shapr3D... Tinkercad I guess? Vectary, kinda ok. LibreCAD, I'm sure was productive in 1997. Spreadsheet guru? Calc & Google Sheets have come a long way, but they're still in another realm compared to Excel; but I'm a big personal fan of Numbers, as it doesn't try to be Excel and instead serves a slightly different kind of user.
>I've never had an issue with this "35 character file save prompt" limit, and I cannot imagine it would be a dealbreaker even if I did.
I have worked at or consulted for hundreds of clients from SMB to the world's largest enterprises and the majority would have a major worker uprising on their hands if they had to deal with a 35 character limit to easily working with document names. Please try to work with a handful documents with names that exceed 35 characters and you will get it.
There are multiple ways to solve the bootloader issue, but the easiest is putting your Linux drive ahead of your Windows drive in firmware settings, during installation.
Windows will absolutely blast your boot sector/UEFI partition with no concern for other OSes (it won't chain load). Mac avoids this with Bootcamp, which is more similar to firmware than an OS.
I'm surprised the parent comment has this issue. They are either using BIOS, or the automatic disk mode (and just complained about the installer doing things automatically on their disk). Avoiding this scenario is UEFI is as simple as creating a exFAT partition and mounting it to /boot. Any calamares-based installer will let you do that.
> Avoiding this scenario is UEFI is as simple as creating a exFAT partition and mounting it to /boot. Any calamares-based installer will let you do that.
I love this comment so much.
Linux is my go-to, but the idea that it's "as simple as..." cracks me up.
Microsoft, if you're listening; Ads in Windows, is what pushed me to leave. I have no intention of ever returning. Ads in the tools that I use for my work are unacceptable.
I'm pretty sure Microsoft is operating under the assumption that everyone who could quit Windows has done so already. Sadly most of the world lacks the technical knowledge (for Linux) or money (for Mac) to make a switch, and on the corporate side Windows is pretty much a mandate, so what can the end user even do?
WSL was a clear push to get developers to use Windows by giving them the best of both worlds. Similarly virtual desktops and snap layouts supposedly got a whole lot better with Windows 11, and those are clearly power user features. So some teams at Microsoft clearly care.
As usual Microsoft doesn't show a clear direction, unless that direction is infighting.
Agree, for the average end-user switching is still difficult. I do think for some of the more technically oriented ones (some gamers, etc...) it may be possible.
Gaming on Linux has long been difficult. Not going to get a lot of support from gamers there. The "I want to play games on my linux box" crowd is a lot bigger than the "I want to use linux on my gaming box" crowd.
Indeed. Why install something that will only cause problems?
However, for those who are willing to accept the problems to try something different, it's surprisingly un-bad. Majority of Steam stuff does work, via their fork of Wine; if it's not officially compatible, you can enable it anyway.
I moved my parents from win xp to ubuntu years ago... If I told them it was a new windows version, they'd belive me. Browser works, mail works, youtube works,... and they don't care about the rest.
I solely use Windows 11 at home right now and can even take ads in Solitaire or something, but placing ads in system tools is a red line for me. I'd have to move to Linux again if this becomes true with no way of disabling it by officially supported methods, and do some of my current desktop development for Windows in a virtual machine.
I think it's the shitness of the ads in Solitaire, those very low quality "You won't believe how she looks now". Pure scraping of the barrel.
I wouldn't mind if I got punted ads for stuff like coffee or Philips LED lights. Fortunately I've been able to block Solitaire's worst offenders, the ones for those lootbox games that play at the highest volume possible. And you can't even mute them permanently because each new one that pops up somehow creates a new "Application" in the Volume Mixer.
Adding ads to Solitaire was really the start of darkness for post-Vista Microsoft.
Yes, Windows 8 had a lot of bad UX decisions, but those were well-meaning, if totally misguided. Ripping out the (excellent) Windows 10 Solitaire in exchange for the ad-filled monstrosity that was Microsoft Solitaire collection was just malicious.
I can't even internet with ads. dns blocking, ublock origin and other things. I can't understand why others even put up with all the crap. I've gotten one too many viruses from on-page advertising where I've had to wipe and reinstall.
That's just unacceptable. I'm glad I left Microsoft products behind at the end of the Windows 7 era. Linux on the desktop for years now.
Wine is getting pretty good. If I really have to run a Windows executable, I can.
I'm even developing something that has to work cross-platform. I compile in Rust with
--target x86_64-pc-windows-gnu
and test under Wine. Had to get some bugs fixed in a few low level crates for that to work, but now I can do Vulkan graphics in the Windows executable running under Wine. There's still a problem with Tracy profiling with cross-compile, but it's a package level build script problem.
I was reasonably happy with the NT 3.51 -> Windows 2000 -> Windows 7 line of Microsoft products. I skipped Windows 95, Windows 98, and Windows XP. By Windows 7, Microsoft had finally figured out how to make it work, had dumped much of the DOS-era code, and had the consumer and pro versions unified into something good.
It's been downhill since then. Ads, subscriptions, and trying to make desktops look like phones.
Windows 7 is still 12% of the installed base, and that's not counting the ones that don't phone home to Redmond.
I tried to do that a year ago, but the problem was my PC froze (full lock up, even mouse pointer is frozen) regularly. I didn't know how to even start troubleshooting a thing like that so I left to Win10 again (was Linux Mint btw).
I've experienced Cinnamon on Linux Mint crashing (leaving the display frozen), but it was possible to go do a tty with ctrl+alt+functionkey (each of f1-f6 goes to a different tty, f7 goes back to the display) and manually restart it. But this hasn't happened to me in the last couple months, so it's probably fixed.
Then I've had some full freezes where precisely nothing at all works, but those happen very rarely and I wouldn't be surprised if that's a hardware problem.
Then there's full RAM. Yes, linux still hasn't figured out how to not flop on its head dead when RAM fills up; though usually the mouse pointer isn't immediately frozen.
Plenty of room for improvement here. Soon Windows will read filenames and show ads based on them. Then it will read your pdf files and let advertisers bid on keywords in those files. Windows 13 will watch the cursor movements, analyze it and book doctor appointment behind your back (billable to your insurance).
I’ve been noticing this for a while, but I no longer “own” my devices. I’m buying the product and continually paying for it with my attention. Everything I have can be taken away.
Empty spaces filled with ads, telemetry with zero opt-out, data watched by thousands of eyes, DRM for home appliances.
At what point will people do something about this? I have a feeling that even though all of us use technology for hours every day, only a few have even a basic understanding of what they are doing. Everyone else isn’t even aware of what’s happening and blindly click away their rights.
Don’t misinterpret my comment as approving of this behavior. But it just occurred to me that this is a societal issue not a tech issue. We have billboards on the highway, on buildings, before computers we had tv in the home that pushed ads. So really this is just tech catching up.
70% of the population is overweight, if people can’t bother to care about their body / health then why would they care about being spied on by telemetry or denied access to their licensed content via DRM?
It feels shitty to think about, but it seems like this is just a tech extension to some of the flaws in society, rather than a problem that’s unique to tech.
> "if people can’t bother to care about their body / health then"
People would have an easier time of that if there wasn't so much brightly coloured cheap sugar at bargain prices arrayed around the checkout of supermarkets and advertised all over. It obviously works or they wouldn't do it. Pretending it doesn't work and the target/victim is at fault for being influenced by it is awful. If you'd never heard of soda in your life, you wouldn't think to ask "what's the most intensley sugary fizzy acidic liquid I can drink?". If you'd never heard of Pepsi you'd never think to ask "What is the drink of my generation?" or "What is Michael Jordan endorsing? I bet the only reason he's good is his sneaker brand, I need some of those".
It's the situation of the bully standing in front of you, facing you, walking backwards, pointing at you, calling you names, poking you in the chest, pausing so you have to stop moving to avoid tripping up, pretending to spit at you so you wince, then laughing, sidestepping in step with you so you can't dodge them, interrupting your conversation with your friends and it's all fine and socially accepted - as long as you're a sufficently virtuous Ayn Rand libertarian this won't annoy or frustrate you. If it does and you retaliate, ever, in any circumstances (and it will be there when you are weakest, tiredest, most desperate, waiting) then HAH! Gotcha! you're inferior, clearly you just 'can't be bothered' to take the high road and now we can righteously take your money because you fell for temptation so we earned it.
And literally nobody will say anything in your defence because Calories In / Calories Out and I'm All Right, Jack, fuck you got mine, worksforme won'tfix. They'd have to have, you know, empathy.
Yes of course, these products are being shoved in our faces and sugar is even being snuck into things like bread and pasta sauce where you wouldn’t expect it. It’s really insidious but that doesn’t negate the personal responsibility people have. It’s a nuanced issue, it’s not all the individuals fault and it’s not all the food manufacturers faults. For example there’s also an education component (or lack there of) at play here.
But anyways, my point wasn’t about the contributing factors of obesity, but rather that if people are struggling with their health how are they expected to be worrying about things like privacy
Some sort of combined hardware and software consortium that specializes in devices that are repairable, DRM-free, etc. is the only solution I can think of, and even then they'd have to fend off entryism from established players (like when Microsoft subverted standards bodies to get their very proprietary document standard declared as open and not proprietary).
Huh. I've never gotten this and my default browser is Firefox. Does this happen when you import bookmarks into Firefox from Safari, or every time you use Firefox?
Is it? It's a nudge at best, which you can probably taxonomize as "advertising" but its for a thing you already have and users genuinely might not have noticed.
Now, they had a different notification in the past for MobileMe that was truly an ad because you didn't have to be an existing customer for an upsell nor did it come with the OS by default (this was after iTools got rebranded by Apple), and it just wanted you to go to their website to look at the product and maybe buy it, download it and install it. (this was mostly the pre-iCloud-Drive backup solution that was itself a holdover from iTools)
I think technically anything that points you to a place where money could be made is an advertisement, and even advertising mDNS devices on a local network is doing the "hey you, there is a thing over here"-thing. But there is a big difference between creating a universal spot in software to load arbitrary advertisements for new products vs. in-product purchase options (which obviously tend to lean more into the upsell category of ads than the nudge for mindshare category of ads).
The whole 'try safari' thing is one I do actually see on new accounts, and sometimes on first startup with browsers, but IIRC once dismissed they don't come back again. Heck, it even is less persistent than the post-install highlights notification you got from major OS upgrades.
Perhaps the Browser-notification is best compared with Microsoft's OneDrive notification in the Security settings where they suggest that using a free OneDrive account is the "One True Way" to stop ransomware.
I think the fact that you already have the app installed is not a mitigating factor, it actually makes it worse: I can't uninstall Safari. They put it on my computer, I chose not to use it, and now they're specifically targeting other applications they want me to switch away from.
It's not only a new installation issue either; I've had this laptop for 7-8 months. It's only happened 4-5 times, and I assumed (without verifying) that I get it whenever Safari has updated. For what it's worth, I have turned off notifications from Safari; this is the OS itself saying "I see you're using another browser; have you thought about using ours instead?"
I guess it's perspective-dependant. Computers are really more sold like appliances the last decade or so, and as such the specs they are sold on depend on the combination of hardware and software. For the general consumer, any deviation from the expected and advertised performance would be A Bad Thing™, and modifying the base facilities would count as such.
Now, for me (and perhaps you too) I see it much more as a collection of interconnected hardware devices, with various firmwares in ROMS and Flash EEPROMs, boot loaders and operating systems on mass storage devices, and a few ISAs, ABIs and APIs to make sure it all works to a certain standard. In practical terms, that doesn't really matter to anyone else, not to Apple, but also not to Microsoft, HP, Dell etc. So we're back at "the thing is a black box appliance" and as such, the base advertised features should be properties of the appliance as bought by the customer. This also means that any deviation from that will either mean someone has to spend (or waste) time and energy on telling an angry customer that their BitCoinBrowserXXL is the reason the battery is empty after an hour, and that it is their own fault, or that the device is defective, or that the advertisement was false. If you are a for-profit company, would you not cut that "waste" of support by 33%?
There is always the fear that the company is doing an evil thing and wants to harvest your life, but if Apple wanted to do that, they could. It's more likely that it's just part of the energy saving subsystem to direct users to optimal usage scenarios and things like "dim display automatically" and "use safari" are part of those scenarios. There really isn't much else gained by using Safari, not by Apple and not by the user. So either both gain a "yes the battery does last longer and the computer is responsive", or they both lose that. There is no PII telemetry in Safari, and cross-device data sharing (like Bookmarks) are encrypted within the iCloud Circle if you are using that, so Apple can't see that either (except if you also enable iCloud Backup on an iOS device), so for data harvesting, it's not really an incentive.
What would be an interesting option is a "do not use notifications to suggest optimal software-hardware interactions" checkbox somewhere so they can just list side-effects near the actual preferences instead of all over the place.
Never had that one, but from the docs you apparently can select it, say you do not want the free thing and it will never come back and also not be replaced with an ad for unrelated products. Edit: until you apparently log in on a new device and if it is new enough you get the same offer.
Still only once per account though. If you have a family setup it's actually only once per family even, I'd imagine it reverts back to once per account if you leave the family.
So basically, if you don't like seeing it, activate it and then immediately cancel it, and it should never come back.
Interesting, I haven't checked with the rest of the family, but would that also mean that the trial is family-scoped so that you can't all trial it individually?
If you dismiss that it’ll never come back again. This goes for all their music, tv, etc. services. And this also goes for features like Siri and Apple Pay, if you opt out there’ll be a reminder in settings and if you decline it’ll never come back.
It's a very Apples to Oranges comparison to be honest. Settings is an app that you don't really need to open that much to begin with, and the "ads" they show are more like promotions that you can use only once on your account. It's a bait for sure, but it's at least a bit beneficial to users if they are ever interested in trying that service.
Explorer is something Windows users interact with constantly, putting ads right next to the actual content view is SO different to ads in settings, at least to me.
As others have mentioned this isn't the only ad Apple has tinkered with recently, I don't think they should be off the hook by any means, I just think Microsoft have been way more dubious recently.
Why can't the OS just be an OS though without ads anywhere? Clearly if you install firefox you want to use firefox, otherwise you'd switch back to safari.
Because ads is the only way to make constant money from consumers if you don't sell hardware with the OS. That said, not all notifications are ads. Sometimes, a notification is just a well-intentioned notification that only a small portion of users take offence to. I bet that if they made a "Safari Rewards Points" program that would annoy the hell out of everyone.
I believe they are referring to Apple’s encouragement to sign up to/in to iCloud within the Settings app on iOS, suggesting that this is an ‘ad’ on a par with the Microsoft ad shown in the OP.
Not even close. If you go to iCloud (a tiered service with one free offering and only paid options beyond that), you get product messaging about iCloud. Not "how to write confidently in this other unrelated product that you don't have but you can buy from us".
Not showing up for me at any time, perhaps this is that complementary thing you get for new iCloud accounts and new Apple devices? (Or was that the one free year thing?)
While it is probably advertising for a service, it's not a generic place for arbitrary advertisements. I believe the difference between "there will be random ads here" and "you bought a thing, this is what you get with it for free if you want it, or you can remove it and never see it again as a normal option" is pretty big.
My iCloud account isn't new. It's many years old. The device I have is old but only 3 months old. I bought it from someone else and it's still under warranty so maybe that's why.
> I believe the difference between "there will be random ads here" and "you bought a thing, this is what you get with it for free if you want it, or you can remove it and never see it again as a normal option" is pretty big.
That's a fair point. I do notice Apple going in the wrong direction though. Even the "search" tab in the App Store now shows ads for random apps (before doing a search). That's fairly odd.
For the store I sort-of understand it, it's a store after all, the only purpose is to extract money from customers (in exchange for services/goods), and with a non-physical store the only real distinction you can make is how high at the top of a list your product sits. That said, I don't really use it that often anymore as I already have all the apps I want or need. Perhaps also why I tried the arcade a while back but didn't really end up using much of it for long.
> Even the "search" tab in the App Store now shows ads for random apps (before doing a search). That's fairly odd.
The random searches I've seen always have to do with my previous searches in that box. I think this is probably a case of Apple not having a good App Store search suggestion engine. (This happens in the Podcasts app as well.)
- normal search for the list of apps that exist
- paid search positioning on top of that
- previous searches you made
- suggested results just for you
and then somehow blending that into a bad list of search results. (this is just a crappy guess on my part)
On one hand I don't care all that much, on the other hand I know there are people that do go browsing the store looking for new stuff to try out, and using search seems to be the only reasonable way to go looking for things with so many apps being available.
After combining that with your other post, perhaps the formula they are using is iCloud account on a 'difference' device where it calculates if the new device is 'better' than the old one, thus was a device upgrade and therefore you may want to try the arcade. Personally I don't care for the arcade, but it does seem to be some sort of one-off notification when something in your device/account mix changes.
Reminds me of the Office365 trial tile in Windows that doesn't actually do anything but when you open the start menu it is always there in accounts that are newly signed in to a computer. It's not really in the way, but it is always in your face until you remove it (but then it does stay away).
It's definitely annoying indeed. I do wonder how this could be done better because after asking around for a bit there do seem to be a lot of people that aren't aware of any free trials yet are definitely interested in trying it out.
I think they’re referring to the upsell of iCloud. If you’re not subscribed to even the $1 tier or wherever, there is a line under the iCloud menu item to upgrade. I don’t think it’s especially egregious but some might have a different opinion.
They're probably talking about notifications probing you to add your card to Apple Wallet.
I'm not sure if you get them if you never touch Apple Wallet, I always get them when I transfer to a new phone or reset my current phone and need to setup my cards again before they can fully transfer.
It's annoying, but never felt it was comparable to Microsoft.
My favourite is when you open the Galaxy Store on a flagship Samsung phone and a popup with a promoted game is shoved in your face every single time.
The popup will often have a 3 second delay before it interrupts you due to the performance issues of their ad servers, so you open the app store and just wait there for the inevitable popup to appear before you can dismiss it to continue using the app.
The "Get news and special offers" option is disabled in the app, but none of that matters, the popup ads at app start are there on all Samsung Galaxy devices I've tested.
I have an S21 and honestly have no issues with it. Never seen any ads either. I don't use the galaxy store though(no idea what it's for tbh, it's not like you're forced to use it). As to "why" - it's extremely nice hardware, on par or better than most iPhones in my opinion, it "just works" day in day out.
I think the notion of Samsung phones having terrible bundled apps and janky UI might be outdated. Samsung phones got better than the previous "stock ROM" kings (Pixels and OnePluses come to mind).
MKBHD talked about this recently, https://youtu.be/qWIkBMNKj1s?t=614 timestamp included. I do not own a Samsung phone, so I can't speak to the amount of ads, but it seems they were not sleeping all these years and made the experience a benchmark for other android-flavored phones.
They became solid, somehow boring and just work. Feel free to correct me, it is just a thought.
Well, if I'm looking to buy an Android phone with the latest specs, then it's either a Pixel, Samsung or OnePlus. Out of those, I guess Pixels are less bloaty than any other phones, except if preinstalled Google apps are 'bloaty'. And there's always an option to bootloader unlock and install LineageOS.
Shrug. They're fine. It's not hard to ignore that stuff. Honestly Apple's constant iCloud storage notifications are more annoying than pop-ups in the Galaxy Store you'll probably never visit anyways.
That works to some extent, but there are packages which don't have a UI from which to check for updates, so you could end up with some services becoming outdated and broken, or just vulnerable.
This is nonsensical, I am a pretty big Microsoft advocate, but there is no need in this. Whatever bonehead in Microsoft thought of this should be fired.
That is why they keep doing this. Despite Microsoft's past, it seems like you still advocate for them. This would be like someone still advocating for Hitler.
I really like Windows, Azure and O365 and believe they have no real competition, especially when paired together. I can install Ubuntu or other Linux distros on my Windows PC, connect to my Azure VM or container easily and O365 is just simply unmatched, as hard as others try. So I advocate Azure and O365 especially and am harshly critical of Apple/Google. Microsoft generally handles the cloud aspect very well but seems still a bit lost on the OS side. Which is a bit insane to me, especially when sales skyrocketed during COVID, and Windows 11 is generally pretty solid at this point.
I have to use Azure at work, and in my experience it's a worse version of AWS/GCP:
- standard MS random indecipherable errors in the GUI (error 0x68482233: consult system administrator)
- extremely slow UI performance in the GUI
- extremely slow VM performance running their OS (even though it has 4 VCPUs, 32gb of RAM and a giant SSD)
it's a standard MS product, one where they (badly) copy the features of their competitors, and it only sells because they bundle it with their other crappy products which your company is already locked into
I never said Azure has no competition? I said when paired with their other products they have no competitor. As far as your VM, it is probably not configured properly. The GCP dashboard to me is incredibly confusing, but most power users use CLI anyhow. I've used AWS, GCP, DigitalOcean and Azure. I prefer Azure myself, though I understand different providers do better at different needs. The only Azure product I've had problems with are their Webapps, which compared to things like Beanstalk and Elastic Compute are just terrible.
What I can’t help notice about o365 is that the web versions are less buggy and more stable and are catching up in feature completeness. Desktop outlook needs to be purged with fire. This makes me wonder for how long it will be necessary to use Windows to get the full o365 experience.
This has the potential to become a serious security risk. Picture the following - you're running File Explorer with admin creds, all while invoking a malvertisement.
FYI: these are in-ecosystem ads (so they all come from MS). The messaging is quite similar what they already do with notifications elsewhere in the system ("Edge is faster than Chrome").
It's still manipulative bullshit, but it's not the gaping security hole that it sounds like it 'ought to be. Even so... this type of behavior is what made me drop Windows over 5 years ago now.
> these are in-ecosystem ads (so they all come from MS).
For now.
I think it's incredibly naive to believe it would stay that way. Or maybe I'm just cynical.
EDIT: Considering the fact that the Start menu displays ads for 3rd party software, nah, I think it's naive to assume the ads in Explorer would always come from MS.
In the past Microsoft has had issues with subdomain takeovers[0], resulting in spam being distributed by their own domains.
Without strict guarantees and control over the way this content is delivered to end user systems, how can we know that a similar type of attack could not happen? This time in a potentially administrative level file explorer?
>Without strict guarantees and control over the way this content is delivered to end user systems, how can we know that a similar type of attack could not happen? This time in a potentially administrative level file explorer?
Sounds like you're not really against ads, but any sort of stuff that can change runtime behavior (eg. feature flagging) or retrieves content dynamically.
I would say that I am not pro-advertisements but I understand things need to be paid for. Software worth using is worth paying for. But I would prefer to pay in currency and not time and attention.
Additionally, a paid Operating System pushing additional premium features on increasingly more and more pixels is a little egregious. My file browser should be boring and not contain surprises.
I don't believe it has yet been established if these ads are downloaded on-demand. If the messaging is instead shipped via Windows Update, I don't think that would create any additional attack surfaces.
I have primarily used Linux for ~15 years. At this point I honestly believe that it's less painful to switch from Windows to Linux than the other way around.
It's obviously still painful to change habits. And I won't downplay how Linux can often be difficult to get working perfectly.
The problem with Windows is that it just feels downright user hostile. Ads here and there, MS products constantly pushed, wizards everywhere, taskbar icons for every piece of hardware. It's like you are renting your PC instead of owning it.
For example, my laptop (https://support.hp.com/ph-en/document/c07686423 I think) has a taskbar icon for the touchpad and a taskbar icon for the AMD graphics. Neither of those things are custom parts, just default out of the factory.
I'm aware that Windows doesn't come with these out of the box, but they easily add up as you install drivers.
On my gaming PC there are:
- Two for audio (if we count the built in one and the one from the driver)
- One for Bluetooth
- One for fan management
- One (or maybe two?) for graphics
- One for driver updates.
When logging in I can see these icons showing up one by one, obviously unnecessarily using resources and just cluttering the UI.
Then when you click the icons they each use a different and often "loud" UI framework, some have embedded ads. Some icons you have to double click, others right click.
You can close many of them, and even disable a lot of them - but not all.
I'm really sad for people who can't run away from Windows because of work and/or programs they use or because they can't. Ads seem the solution for every failure in making money out of software and it's sad.
Some days ago I just randomly downloaded uTorrent and I was scared by the amount of ads they embedded. I think it's a taste of what Windows will be like if they take this direction.
I run Windows inside Qubes for work and get by well, but of course I took the time to learn how to do that and have a beefy workstation. I also don't have any special requirements for GPU acceleration or other hardware usage.
Side note, if you're not aware you should use qBittorrent, Transmission, BiglyBT or Deluge for torrents.
I've been at a Microsoft/.NET shop for over a decade that has a 90's MS employee as a key board director. However, MS is making such poor decisions with Windows and MSSQL licensing that it's become a high priority to migrate off everything they do going forward. I think it will take enterprise a few years but MS has signed their own death warrant on their old stack - good thing they bought GitHub and went all in on WSL.
uTorrent jumped the shark many many years ago. qBitTorrent is what you want probably since it's an open source uTorrent clone without the ads (alternatively Transmission if you want something really basic that just works).
One is, whatever your opinion on ads on file explorer see might be, using the triangle/exclamation mark Hazard signage for ads is absolutely unacceptable.
The other is, is it just me, or is all the negative press about Microsoft these days caused by the Windows division?
It's an interesting thing to read people complaining about their shitty Windows experience and yet continuing to use Windows in of changing their computer's OS.
Another thing is that people forget about software ownership.
You don't own your computer's OS, Microsoft does,and according its abusive terms of service that no one cares about, they can do whatever they want with their products, including show you ads or anything that disrupt your experience, because the OS is made to serve them, not you.
Microsoft seem desperate to be in the ad business, but don't have any sites that anyone visits or any wortwhile search engine that effectively controls access to the Internet for the majority of the users. The only "Microsoft surface" left where they can stick advertising is the pixels they control via the OS.
I may have a good way of capturing this sentiment:
This makes me nervous. I am realising we are at the end of a giant saas experiment. Get users, monetise them later. If Microsoft take the OS down this route then I am offski. It's not about parting with cash, it's about forcing crap on people who don't want it.
I'm pretty sure `git push` and `git pull` display whatever banner the server decides to send. So this could be implemented in Github tomorrow with no git update needed.
I've spent a lot of time learning how to use the Win32 api and overall I like using the Windows OS. But the user hostile design decisions of the UI/UX is making it more and more likely that I'll move on. I don't want ads, I don't want cloud, I don't want a store. I just want to use _my_ computer.
Microsoft act with utter contempt for their users. I now recommend to anyone who asks me that they purchase a Mac instead. Their machines will last longer, they will get better customer support, and they won’t have to put up with stupid shit like this. I can’t in good conscience recommend Windows any longer.
Apple may be better but they’re getting into using their OS to push ads themselves. Only Linux is truly free of adware, at least if you install the right distro.
Lots of people asking about alternatives to Windows here. I've found Ubuntu-MATE to be very good for my needs. It uses the Ubuntu base which gives it access to the debian software repo as well as being a popular distro so often particular use-cases have been fixed for it. However the MATE aspect is a follow-on from an older desktop environment (Gnome 2), which is a fairly no-nonsense, feature rich and polished environment. It remains under active development and keeps thing simple. I prefer this to the changing sands that is Gnome 3 / Unity or Ubuntu's adaption of Gnome 3.
I wonder if this will make its way into the Enterprise LTSC version or not.
I will likely be recommending it -- we really do NOT have an alternative to Windows (and I know someone will try to be clever about it and make any number of suggestions that aren't going to actually work for us) -- but I can imagine some fairly large software vendors starting to consider Linux compatibility just because of how noxious this is.
Kinda ironic how, when it comes to operating systems, it's the Free ones that don't have ads.
(Yeah, I know that's not entirely true. Still, I find it kinda hilarious that I might have to switch from a paid operating system to a free one in order to get away from ads.)
They might get it later but I'm pretty sure they will get it eventually, given that enterprise versions eventually got bloatware like candy crush.
I think the classic truism that you are either the customer or the product is outmodded. Companies are normalizing double-dipping and making you a product even when you are paying them.
I think the partnership that caused them to bundle Candy Crush ended a while ago but I belive that it did trickle out to Pro and finally Enterprise before it wrapped up. It's not the highest quality post but this seems to corroborate my belief: https://whatsabyte.com/windows/windows-10-enterprise-bloatwa...
The only thing I get actively annoyed about in Windows 10 Enterprise is the forced installation of that onedrive crap. You can remove that by making your own image but that is still scummy as hell and not different to bundling Windows media player, for which they got fined.
Then there is the telemetry that cannot be disabled entirely, but that's a different level of shit. I mean, they do this with Minecraft too [0]...
I lied. While reading the rest of the thread, one more thing came to mind:
Microsoft grants itself several exceptions in the firewall which are restored even if deleted by the user. Stuff like allow inbound any to cortana...
Debian Stable user here. I used to use Win 7, which I was happy with. I never used Win 10, except at a library.
The chances are minimal that I will install wither Win 10 or 11 on my machine. Why should I pay beaucoup dollars for an OS that thinks it's their machine, when I can get a free, no-hassle one that does what I want it to do?
I've noticed that there's been a certain amount of historical revisionism, too. People are saying how great Win 10 was. Win 10 great?? Are you mad? I've read complaint after complaint as to how bad Win 10 is. Microsoft has done a real number on peoples' expectations about what constitutes good and bad. Meanwhile, on Debian, the OS just stays out of my way.
Mozilla has been giving off a "feudal overlord" vibe for some time now, too.
I do use VSCode on Linux on occasion, though. It's actually quite a nippy piece of software. I dread anything involving Java like Eclipse. Of course, real programmers use vim anyway.
Actually I'm okay with the idea, but only under these conditions:
* They are "to the side", not pop-ups and not blocking or pushing primary content into canned sardines.
* One can close/minimize them to make room when needed.
* They are clearly ads and can't be mistaken for normal content, because you know sleazy marketers (ad purchasers) will try to trick viewers.
* One can pay more to get an ad-free version, or even tiered so one can choose multiple levels between parting with money and annoyance level.
* User can change spam level/features down the road without a big change-fee.
* Does not mine personal info to target ad content, or at least offer a clear and easy way to opt out of targeted ads and related personal content mining.
* Doesn't use "dark UI patterns" to trick users out of money, into loss of privacy, etc. (Amazon is doing more of that, it's friggen annoying.)
In Jan2009 Windows had 95% marketshare across OSes. It’s now at 31% (accounting for iOS/Android). I would compare Windows to all OSes not just desktop OSes as I think mobile OSes do directly compete with Windows, I do know people who use iPads but not PCs.
I think Windows did well in the last year due to its strength in the WFH/education market and the convertible laptop market. If we look at stats from the last year we might think that traditional desktop PCs have a bright future but this is ignoring the broader picture. People are buying Windows PCs to do stuff like using desktop office applications that Microsoft seems to want to replace with rewritten web versions in the long run.
Windows faces a rock and a hard place sort of situation with its x86_64 dependence. It’s a long term liability but a transition to ARM or whatever would remove much of the competitive advantage Windows has. It’s solution to complete with Apple and it’s ARM convergence is to emulate ARM + Android and offer ARM windows alongside x86 windows which is a bit half-assed and disjointed.
Windows is also losing its software moat more and more every year regardless of what it does.
I mean, I think you can make a case for the future of WindowsNT but moves like the record levels of adware in Windows to me project a lack of confidence in the long term future of Windows given the indifference to poisoning the platform. It doesn’t make me go “Wow Microsoft is out to prove the haters wrong who underestimate the benefits of WinNT!”
I don't think a dependence on x86 is "a rock and a hard place". People consciously using Windows machines do it for pretty much one reason: they need compatibility with everything, no matter the cost. Switching to ARM would throw the baby out with the bathwater, and I don't think Microsoft is dumb enough to try that.
Which leaves us in a spot where MacOS seems forward-looking, whereas Windows seems to be grasping onto its legacy. How wise is it for any professional to invest their time into Windows if it seems to be headed towards inevitable decline?
This is a question I ask myself as somebody who has used Windows continuously since Win95. If it was just the x86 aspect I might be able to shrug it off as unimportant in the grand scheme of things, but when I see stories like this it really wears down my confidence in Windows.
Developers are going Mac and Linux, Schools are going Chromebooks and many adults are going phones. Companies, constantly being behind the curves are still stuck in MS land.
You have linked to the desktop market. Yes there rules MS, but the desktop market is being destroyed by the phone market where MS doesn't even have an offer.
I wouldn't say really destroyed by the phone market, but yes, I feel like the markets are getting more and more specialized. From what I've seen Windows machine still have two big markets: Companies (for various software compatibility / historical reasons) and Gaming. If I look at all the persons I know using Windows as their main OS, and that's quite a few, reason nb 1 is video games.
I'm hoping this comes to an end soon with Valve backing Proton due to the Steam Deck. I don't think I'll be upgrading to Windows 11 at any rate, I'll keep Win 10 as long as possible then migrate to Linux and live with the consequences if a minority of my games won't run on it.
I run Linux and Steam, but not the latest and greatest games. A lot of games run out of the box. A lot of the rest run if you tick the box for "yes, run this game anyway even though it's not officially compatible with Linux." The one major bug I've run into is that if I save my password, it doesn't start up - so I have to log into Steam every time.
I am not sure main OS even makes sense. My mum is not a gamer, 70% of her screen time is on her phone, but she does use a Windows PC from time to time. If you only looked at her desktop use her main OS would be Windows, but really it is Android.
Thankfully I spend >=90% of my time in Linux or Apple based operating systems these days. When support for Windows 10 dries up, hopefully Proton will be up to snuff or I'll just have to kiss some of my steam library goodbye. That's a sacrifice I'm willing to make.
Ah, reminds me of the good old days when I connected a Windows 98 box directly to the public Internet and was spammed every 10 minutes with WinPopup messages, instructing me to visit a dodgy website for "registry booster virus removal".
I'll certainly enjoy the throwback to simpler times.
Just today, discovered a couple apps on my son's Windows profile that he must have accidentally installed since just browsing Windows can cause you to accidentally install apps from the Microsoft Store.
After I uninstalled them, I went to hide them from the Store to prevent the same issue, and nope. Microsoft won't even let you hide apps that you accidentally installed now from the Store. This is in addition to not being able to delete apps from your account either that you installed from their pathetic Store.
Don't get me started on them collecting everything you click on and search for in Windows as well even if you disable telemetry by simply logging into a Microsoft account for the Windows Store (for example, if you use Xbox for PC).
"pretty well" is still not going to be enough. If it is not using the hardware as well as Windows, then I am losing performance.
There is also all the multiplayer games with anticheat that wont work or ban you on Linux. Destiny 2 for a recent example. And I understand them at one point.
Humanity is solving the wrong problems. Money and ways to make it seem to be pointing in directions that are odds with the general good of the species at large. Ad tech has poisoned so many wells in the last 30 years.
IMVHO (not using Windows myself) if I buy a product and it bundle ads I ask for refund. With a TV I buy the device, not the service and ads coming from the service are a separate thing (not counting modern dumb TV sold as smart) BUT if I buy an OS the OS even with a limited usage license is MINE, witch means no ads on it. If that's not the case then the OS must be given for free. Pure and simple.
A thing that MUST be enforced by law with sanctions severe enough (significant percentage of global income from the ads themselves) to discourage any abuse.
I’m glad I dropped windows in 2011 when they started down this unsavoury path. Now they’re finally in Xiaomi territory: serving you ads inside essential programs. MacOS has issues, but it is just miles better in terms of invasiveness. I keep a win10 machine for gaming and I cringe every time I have to use it for anything else. Luckily Proton is coming along well, so the win10 installation will be wiped soon. In 10y time no one will use MS garbage any more.
I am still using Windows 10 LTSC version and have dual booted it Pop OS. I do everything on Windows for now but I have all my work setup configured on pop. The day MS pulls this stunt on win 10 and hard codes Ads on file explorer, I am yeeting out all windows service for good. Planning to use windows 10 till they support it then I will switch completely to Linux because I am NEVER downgrading to Windows 11. ( Have you seen the UI pffft)
Considering how often devs rely on explorer, I wonder what the ones at Microsoft will think. Maybe they have a special key to get rid of ads.
Either way, there are 1000 other FS managers on Windows. The only obstacle is matching the integration Explorer has. They have the advantage of being an in house app.
Other file managers have identical integration to basic functionalities like opening a folder today. What’s stopping Microsoft from closing out these features?
Windows vs Linux is similar to the chess.com vs lichess.org comparison.
chess.com is worse performance, bloated to the moon w/ ads and popups, costs money, not open-source. And lichess.org is the opposite in every way (free, way higher quality, zero ads).
I can't believe MS would put ads in system tools. What the hell are they thinking!? I've used linux for 5 years now and not looking back!
Do we know for sure that these ads actually link to/show 3rd party content? Don't get me wrong, I'd find this confusing and annoying but it does look like it's just a link to Microsoft content promoting more of their own products.
I've logged in to MS Teams and instead of the web app, I get a landing screen asking me if I want to install the desktop app. Powershell also contains a URL-shortener link to their documentation.
Which makes the iPhone worse than Windows. Microsoft allows you to disable the ads in the start menu and allows you to disable the ads mentioned in the article, Microsoft refers to them as suggestions, by disabling "Tips and suggestions" in the System->Notification settings.
How is Apple Music ads in Music.app pedantic? I store files locally and have subscribed to iTunes Match for probably a decade, yet it kept showing me an ad for Apple music when I launched my music player once a month. Then it straight up just dedicated buttons on the screen to the ad and the switch to turn the ads off doesn't work keeps turning back on and they removed the switch entirely on MacOS.
It sometimes feels like Microsoft has their own "Tick-Tock" development model for Windows. This is the tock where we get to break prior working hardware, have ugly design decisions made, and who knows what else.
Hopefully the tick for Windows 12 will be better than this tock.
The reality is developing an OS is very expensive. I can totally understand why MS is going down that path. It's great that MS is asking for feedback from users. Unlike Google, which is keeping users hostages for some extra money.
Windows works and is printing money since more than three decades. Of course they don’t need to add ads.
Since at least Windows 7 they could have done nothing other than changing colors and styles and still print money.
I’m not saying that Windows shouldn’t evolve. But since Windows 7, basically everything is just worse. I can’t see a single thing that I could qualify as "better". I just lost more and more control as the time passes. Heck I can’t even resize and move the taskbar anymore.
There is a lot of thing I like in my current job but the day I’ll quit, quitting Windows will be a relief.
And I’m saying that as someone who grew up with Windows, learned computing with Windows, played with Windows… Although I prefer Linux/macOS, I’ve never been "anti" anything. But Windows 11 is just insulting me on a daily basis, I can’t stand it anymore.
I can't believe that anyone pays money for windows. It's the worst OS by far of any that I use (macos, freebsd, linux, openbsd, etc), it's the only one that costs money, and it's the only one which shows me ads.
> They definitely charged money for e.g. going to windows 10 from windows 7 or whatever.
No, they didn't.
> You also don't have to pay to install macos on non-mac hardware.
You "don't have to pay" because Apple doesn't allow it. If we're going to talk about bypassing restrictions and violating licensing agreements, you "don't have to pay" for most software because you can find a cracked version online for free. That's not an argument.
In any case, this discussion is clearly just bickering over semantics. Apple has never asked me for money for an OS. Microsoft has asked me for money for an OS many times. Apple does not make money charging for unbundled OS sales. Microsoft makes money charging for unbundled OS sales. You can pontificate all you want about what it really means for something to be free, but from a practical perspective, no one treats MacOS as an independent product that you can go to the store and buy. MacOS doesn't "cost money" any more than the infotainment OS in my car "costs money"; i.e. not in a sense that most people would identify with.
In late capitalism it’s an agreed upon fact of life that poor people’s minds must be bombarded with ads 24/7. Look at the amount of billboards in a poor neighborhood vs a gated community for the elites. This is just a natural extension of this principle to operating systems. Poor people’s operating systems (i.e. Android, Windows) will be filled to the brim with scammy ads, because they have no power to look elsewhere.
I'm not sure how copywrited software (a government enforced monopoly on intellectual property) is an example of capitalism but maybe you'll enlighten me?
Looks like a new generation of engineers and designers is ready to learn this lesson the hard way again!