> it isn't difficult to see how they are easily turned into one, is it?
Perhaps, but their mere existence isn't being a dark pattern.
> It seems obvious these mechanisms always had this effect
What effect? Getting people to play more? Do having a good story or tight mechanics count as dark patterns too then?
To me, the idea of a 'dark pattern' here is when a mechanic is being used to push people to play the game more past what they actually enjoy. It's when they don't really feel like playing anymore, but some system in the game compels them to, they feel they 'need' to do something in there. On the other hand, if people do enjoy the specific game element itself, if taking it away would make fans of that type of game find it less enjoyable, then it's not really a dark pattern.
If you removed levels and similar systems of progression from Final Fantasy or The Elder Scrolls, would fans of those series find the games more or less enjoyable? My bet is less.
> To me, the idea of a 'dark pattern' here is when a mechanic is being used to push people to play the game more past what they actually enjoy.
Would people play less if such mechanisms were left out? I'm sure of it. Thus they are nudging you to play more, to get that achievement, to round out that score. I don't see how it couldn't, or what this adds to a good game. Below you are spot on: these things are not intrinsic to the game and thus, IMHO, best left off. The meta game of completionism does not affect everyone the same, but I don't think it ever adds.
> Would people play less if such mechanisms were left out? I'm sure of it.
I already addressed this point earlier:
> What effect? Getting people to play more? Do having a good story or tight mechanics count as dark patterns too then?
I'm going to call out now that you ignored this question. Was that just because you didn't have a good response that fit your argument? It sure seems like it.
> I don't see how it couldn't, or what this adds to a good game.
This is just you asserting your own preferences as an Objective Moral Good. "I don't understand why other people would like <thing>, therefore I can conclude that their enjoyment is irrelevant or objectively incorrect."
Part of having an open mind is learning to accept that other people may enjoy things that we find odd or even bewildering. Asserting that if other people find different things enjoyable, then Other People Are Wrong is the mark of a closed mind.
If you actually believe the point you're putting forth here -- that RPG fans don't truly enjoy the mechanics most closely associated with a game being an RPG -- then I suggest you go to an RPG forum and ask them yourself. Because your whole argument here smells very strongly of, "doesn't understand the perspective of others, and doesn't want to understand."
The mechanic of levelling up or gathering experience points and so on are proxies for a sense of progress, not actual progress. They don't get you anything but the satisfaction of getting it. Textbook pointlessness.
Asserting that I do not understand people enjoy different things differently, and the other things you Seem To Wish To Imply: undermines your attempt at convincing me my mind is closed. You insistence on mistaking validation for goodness (because people enjoy it, does not mean it without dark pattern) however might show you something about your own mind. Tons of people like things that are not 'good' for them, doesn't mean we should see no problem with is or at least understand the pitfall.
> They don't get you anything but the satisfaction of getting it.
High quality music doesn't provide anything but satisfaction either to those who enjoy it, so I guess that's useless too huh?
You're just making a completely facile judgment that amounts to "things other people like are dumb and incorrect." The things you like have some greater value, the things other people like don't count.
> (because people enjoy it, does not mean it without dark pattern)
If people generally enjoy a thing for its own sake, then it's not a dark pattern. That's the whole point of what a dark pattern is; essentially tricking people into doing something that they'd otherwise rather not. If people legitimately enjoy leveling systems, if removing said systems would make the game flatly worse for them, it's not a dark pattern, no matter how much you personally don't see the point.
"It gets people to play the game more" is irrelevant by itself, since almost anything good in a game gets people to play more.
> The meta game of completionism does not affect everyone the same, but I don't think it ever adds.
I think it adds.
Your argument seems to be that it never adds, which is easily refuted by one person who thinks it adds.
Although, saying "it adds" is incomplete. What I mean is it adds to the enjoyment of the game, there are games I would enjoy less without "leveling up". Thus, leveling up adds to a game by enhancing its primary purpose for existing, mental stimulation and enjoyment.
Perhaps, but their mere existence isn't being a dark pattern.
> It seems obvious these mechanisms always had this effect
What effect? Getting people to play more? Do having a good story or tight mechanics count as dark patterns too then?
To me, the idea of a 'dark pattern' here is when a mechanic is being used to push people to play the game more past what they actually enjoy. It's when they don't really feel like playing anymore, but some system in the game compels them to, they feel they 'need' to do something in there. On the other hand, if people do enjoy the specific game element itself, if taking it away would make fans of that type of game find it less enjoyable, then it's not really a dark pattern.
If you removed levels and similar systems of progression from Final Fantasy or The Elder Scrolls, would fans of those series find the games more or less enjoyable? My bet is less.