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Ask HN: At a peak of my dev career, I hate my life
427 points by tenonyx on Jan 30, 2022 | hide | past | favorite | 496 comments
As I write this post, my neighbors from above, probably college students, are having a party of their lifetime, laughing, kicking and screaming. I'm not even mad at them, just full of envy.

The last time I had fun like this was in college. I was broke, renting a big flat with a bunch of roommates, but young, healthy, and full of enthusiasm (and booze). Finding friends in my teens and 20s was as easy as going out literally anywhere. When I eventually went to work, I thought my life would only get better. And I made a good career, but in the process, steadily drifted off into isolation.

These days I work either from home, or at best in a mostly empty office. I tried to meet new people at hobbies and dance lessons, but guess what - they're all full of lonely developers and other socially awkward people - short guys looking for girlfriends, unattractive/aging women looking for husbands, etc.

All the "normal" people I knew in the past are now changing diapers and working to pay off their mortgages, which I guess is a kind of consolation. Still, I'm only in my 30s, and it feels like my life is pretty much done. Doing things by myself is boring and depressing, and getting into a group of "normal" friends, of both genders, to hang out and laugh with, seems like an impossible goal.

In case someone has any advice beyond finding a hobby, going to therapy, approaching random strangers, it would be greatly appreciated. I don't have any skills other than coding, so quitting the career would be a major financial hit. On the other hand, I feel that finding a non-coding job would be ultimately the best way to find new social groups, and get out of the apathy




This is extremely common. In their 30s, people get married, have kids, and move to the suburbs. Finding and keeping friends in your 30s is quite a challenge.

Some tips:

- move to a city - things are much much easier in a city as people are more transient, groups aren't as established, and new people arrive all the time

- it sounds like you have some friends - ask them if they have any friends in your area you should meet platonically

- the easiest way to make friends is an activity: you mentioned a hobby, but it can be anything - a running group, the gym, board games, etc. The more non-nerdy, the more likely you are to find non-nerdy people

- if you're like me, you struggle to make friends because it's not "easy" like it was in college. Friends in your 30s take work: reaching out, texting, scheduling, planning, etc.

- it sounds like you're not in therapy. So let me be the first to tell you that you're depressed (that "apathy" you're feeling is depression). Which is fine, it happens us all. But go to therapy because that's how you solve that. Just try it for a month, no pressure.


I’ll second the city bit. Your experience sounds very much like my existence in not-really-a-city Portland, OR. I moved to NYC and everything about my life got better fast. The only quirk is that COVID kneecapped socializing badly, that’s either temporary or civilization is doomed /shrug


I fled to New Orleans from Portland after two and a half years of that shit and never looked back.


From a visitor’s perspective Portland seems cool and hip. What actually goes wrong when you live there?


While I haven't lived in Portland, when I visited in 2019 I was like, this is a larger Santa Cruz. And I have lived in Santa Cruz so I can make some extrapolations:

* Stifling lack of local prospects; in SC, the majority of jobs were "over the hill" (SJ/SV) making it a bedroom community. Portland has a little more going on for itself but it doesn't have the strong jobs pull of a city like Austin, which Portland has often been compared to in the past.

* Isolated city. If you leave Portland you reach rural farmland relatively quickly compared to larger US metros, which have a cluster of coties SC as noted has some distance to the city, but also proximity to farms east around Watsonville. SC being a college town with a major university contributes to the difference, bringing in a wider young demographic. In both cases this contrast and close proximity enables a dynamic of "city vs country", which exploded in Portland in 2020's protests with aggressive displays and a fatal shooting.

* Ethno-nationalist legacy: Portland was designed to be whites-first and only reversed on that relatively recently. California harbors some of these sentiments, but mostly not as strongly. It adds a layer to the culture that, while not always blatancy obvious, makes it feel more insular.


IMHO, you missed the biggest point: Lack of sunshine. Outside of summer, it's mostly cloudy, coldish, and generally dreary weather.


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=BBUxZdWJ_zE


Portland State is an OK, not great university to boot.


I stayed there a bit and there isn't so much of a single people meeting up type thing. A lot of people stay home, go shopping go home. There was much more of an events happening meet people vibe in NYC.


New Orleans has one of the highest murder rates in the country. It's not a safe place.


You misread - they fled to New Orleans from Portland, they weren't trying to get away from the murder rate.

Besides, NOLA is fine. Murders aren't evenly distributed; there are plenty of perfectly safe spots and lots of safe activities to do.


In 2019 they were at at all time low. I’ll still take it over Portland where people treat me like I don’t exist or as a means to an end.


I’ll take “treat me like I don’t exist” over “make me not exist” any day. ;-)


Barring a car accident a few months ago no one has ever laid a finger on me or made me feel unsafe here.


I visited Portland in late 2020 and I couldn’t believe how dystopian it became. It used to be such an amazing city.


RE: activity

This may sound crazy, but join a Crossfit gym.

Look on google maps, find one that is convenient, show up, talk to the coach, and sign up for a month.

Crossfit is instant community. And you will get fit and feel better about yourself while you do it.

Will it solve everything? Maybe not. But there's it's SUCH a simple way to make real progress on isolation, health, and self esteem.

There are a million other great activities and communities. Few are as easy to find and as consistently positive as Crossfit. (And it does't have to literally be "Crossfit" but if it isn't, then you are in a search mode, which leads to hesitation, reasons not to, and doing nothing.)


I think this is a great idea. In a similar vein, they could also try a running club. There are running clubs everywhere and they look for people of all skill levels (your target could be a 5K, 10k, etc). There are smaller “pods” of people running at different paces, so you can always find a group that matches your skill level. They are also very encouraging and a good way to meet a variety of people. After-run drinks is also not uncommon.

But, with the CrossFit suggestion and this one, I think that the exercise component is just as important as the social aspects. Exercise can help just as much mentally as physically. The notion on a “runners high” is a real effect.

Being able to do it alone or in a group is also a bonus. I have run both with a club and by myself. You don’t have to wait for someone else to get started. You can join a gym or you can run outside. If you have running shoes, you can start today. (Okay, if you’re in the northeast, you might want to wait a few days…)

Another benefit to running — your coding will get better. Seriously. When you have time to stop and think more about a problem, away from the keyboard, problems get easier to solve. I’ve debugged several issues just by stopping and going for a run.

Finally the feeling of finishing a race — no matter the distance — is great. You don’t need to run in a race to get the other benefits, but it’s nice to have a goal.


Can't agree with this more. Training has really helped me put my emotions in check, and after a workout everything seems more clear. I have ended up going every day, and pretty much feel like a car hit me every day, but I have made so many friends just by having CrossFit as a common activity.

The other day, they even organized a hiking activity in the Parnitha mountains outside of Athens, and it felt like an adventure. It's a great community to be part of. My trainer even jokes I should be paying him a extra therapist fee.

Not to mention I met my, probably, future wife at the gym :)


@tenonyx - One important thing: start something THIS WEEK. The benefit of Crossfit, or a running club, or something like that is you can start immediately. It doesn't have to be perfect. It doesn't have to be where you end. It just needs to be a start.

I remember my own phase of loneliness and isolation. I remember sitting on the couch bemoaning my fate. Day after day. The same story. Then I finally took an action that literally changed my life.

The key was that I did something RIGHT THEN, as opposed to planning to do something or thinking about why something wasn't quite right.

Go start your journey of 10,000 miles. Do it now.


Great idea. Here is something that could be similar but more niche (sorry if too niche): join a meetup group for that does indoor rock climbing. If, say, meetup is a big thing where you are. Otherwise, check for, e.g. facebook groups that partner up climbers -- meet and learn! (likely need to take a class to learn the very basics first, assuming you know absolutely nobody and there is no meetup for it.)

More laid back: join a weekly bikes-with-lights social biking group. Weekly trivia, meetups at bars for tech people, new people to the area, karaoke, etc. Play to your strengths/likes. Run and hit the gym to boost social confidence (now I am back at crossfit ;). Learn how to dress up just slightly more than standard for any occasion (non exercise that is) if you don't already know.

It's easier to make friends outside of work if you build some structure or drive into your life beyond work. Become interesting by having interests. Whatever you choose to do, keep doing it and eventually you will meet like minded souls.

I wonder where OP is. Location might have a say in what's popular and help find a matching interest.


I appreciated your comment. Any pointers on where to learn how to dress slightly up for an occasion ? I just don't have an eye for it.


Hey thanks. Reddit could be your friend here. Well, honestly, youtube as well.

Here's a good, to the point summary of a lot of things:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vgH_9Iy7_mQ (lot's of good advice from this guy I think, I the fact that he's selling you on his channel doesn't put you off)

0.) dress just a little bit nicer than average. Do this by simply dressing for the occasion and most likely it will just happen.

https://www.reddit.com/r/coolguides/comments/bfxiqb/how_to_d...

1.) Wear clothes that fit

https://www.reddit.com/r/malefashionadvice/comments/ehrtv/sh... https://www.reddit.com/r/malefashionadvice/comments/1hr3nk/h...

2.) Wear a watch:

https://www.reddit.com/r/Watches/comments/2mkg05/rwatches_bu... https://www.reddit.com/r/Watches/comments/1oawc3/meta_watche...

3.) understand when to wear what shoe

https://www.reddit.com/r/malefashionadvice/comments/p7usf/sh...

4.) Going out? Got a date? Wear a blazer:

https://suitsupply.com/en-us/ https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=XNe1dkaTfg0 (youtube, content starts at 2:06 or so. this guy wears more snickers than I'd be comfortable with, but it's fine for him, and yeah, anyway, some good ideas there)

Also critical, no how a suit should fit, tie your ties, etc. Reddit it all over this stuff so google reddit with your particular question and you should be on your way.

I hope that helps!


Agree. Crossfit benefits IMO:

The Crossfit WODs, a very physically intense workout, at the end everyone usually has a runners high and is sort of relaxed, has a similar effect on me like drinking with others.

The pain shared from fighting through grueling WODs with others creates great bonds/cameraderie, similar to those marches in the military service. Go through a few hero wods together and you develop great trust.

Endless small talk possibility with other crossfitters. Everyone loves to enthusiastically chat about exercises, the last few wods, etc. And immediate connection, like if u studied at the same university.

Last point applies to other sports as well, but IMO, it's a lot stronger with crossfit.


This is good advice, also if it doesn't work, you'll be so tired all of your problems will be gone because you'll be sleeping or trying to eat enough to keep up.


+1 to CrossFit. It pulled me through the birth of my youngest daughter, three job switches in a fairly short amount of time and the pandemic. Like others have said, it will not solve all your problems, but it will definitely make you feel better about yourself.

I actually came to CrossFit through reading Tucker Max's book "Mate" (ISBN-10: ‎0316375365) which I also recommend you read. Good luck brother.


There's a 1000 similar options. Ballroom dancing, martial arts, bird watching, D&D. Most are happy to have new recruits.


Yeah those all sound nice in theory but those activities way more likely to be populated with other weird lonely overthinker types like OP. Do stuff that normal people actually do, not what internet people think normal people do.


> not what internet people think normal people do

As internet people debate in a lengthy thread about what normal people do. :-)


> stuff that normal people actually do

Have kids?


I would be highly skeptical that most people in their 30s doing ballroom dancing and bird watching are normal. I know you're just making stuff up with the D&D inclusion.


Those were just example. Any big city is bound to have thousands of groups like these and you'll have to find one that fits. And even being with other lonely nerds can be stimulating enough to blunt depression enough to get you moving. If you just assume everything in the world sucks and to not even try then that's how you get lonely.


Bird watching? Ballroom dancing? This has to be a joke, I’ve never met a single person under 60 that does either of these


I don't know about bird-watching, but ballroom dancing is really big in computer science. It was really big in my CS department on the east coast 20 years ago, and it's really big at Stanford now.

As far as I understand it, software engineers in the Bay Area have two common hobbies: indoor rock-climbing at Planet Granite and ballroom dancing. I would never have guessed how common they are, but it is what it is. D&D is a distant third.


> ballroom dancing is really big in computer science

Lol that’s the absolute polar opposite of what the OP wants. They want to get away from other engineers like them and to meet some different people.


>As far as I understand it, software engineers in the Bay Area have two common hobbies: indoor rock-climbing at Planet Granite and ballroom dancing

also kiteboarding


I agree that this is a great start because of all the aspects it improve at the same time like you said.


The more non-nerdy, the more likely you are to find non-nerdy people

I'd also add the more "regular", the more likely you are to find regular people. The stereotypical events & hobbies recommended for meeting people can unsurprisingly wind up chock-full of outcast-sorts who are also looking to meet people. If you want to find a real group, and a variety of ordinary folks, you want to expressly avoid all the sort of things Lonely Joe Developer would try.

(Nothing wrong with loner types, but a concentrated bunch of loners is not a great foundation for building a strong social group)


But why would you want to find regular people? Personally I had a very social life with regular people in my 20's, and in retrospect it was very superficial, and these people have become boring and having issue now making sense of their life. I am way more happier since I rediscovered and embraced nerdy hobbies in my 30's.


Upvote... I took up some new sports, but one of the things bringing me joy in my free-time is me rediscovering comic books and playing adventure games with my gf... (All the good stuff - currently monkey island series, previously toonstruck, discworld, Sam&max and all the Lucas arts stuff


Yeah I often see people recommend board game groups for people like OP which is shocking to me. Take a look at the people attending these events. They're not what OP is looking for. Look for normies hobbies.


I'm not sure why you don't think board game groups are a good idea. The attendees seem like a pretty good mix of people to me.

When I first moved to my current city, I joined one, and met a couple who became some of my best friends here. I never would have met them were it not for the group. I realize that not everyone will have the same experience, I just don't see why "recommend board game groups" is rejected as bad advice.


While there are plenty of perfectly fine boardgame groups, if you regularly read posts on the subject you'll find that a LOT of people have discovered that their local boardgame group is full of people who lack the social skills to make friends on their own to play boardgames with.

I agree with you that it isn't bad advice per se. But it should probably come with a warning that the local group might just be full of weirdos and to cut your losses if that seems to be the case.


When I moved to Toronto I found a local roleplaying group and if possible that crowd has an even bigger set of people lacking certain social skills. Despite that, I met most of my friendship group in Toronto through the people I met at that group.

You don't go to the boardgame group because everyone there will be your ideal friendship candidate. You go to find a few people who you get on well with, then invite them over to your place or to some common ground for boardgames (or other mutually enjoyable activity) outside of the group and without the socially inept.


As a middle aged dev type who prefers pretty girls to middle aged dev types, film / acting events are kinda fun. You can even do an acting class and be an unemployed actor on the side like the rest of them.


This is called LARP’ing. A friend of mine does this. He also got a job as a bartender during weekends.


But normies' hobbies at that age are, as OP said, changing diapers and family picnics.


you dont give a depression diagnostic based on comments on the internet. and asking oneself questions about their future is not a sign of illness, its what conscious beings usually do.


Agree that depression diagnosis might be wrong. But the therapy is incredibly effective against all the symptoms he has described in details. Therapy is not just for depressed people. I have met different therapists and I was never diagnosed of clinical depression. However, I have faced many of the symptoms that he has described. It makes sense to meet a therapist (if he can afford it) and take their help. Also, in many Indian cities, therapists are generally a way to many social circles, for they act as aggregators. I think it is different in other places, but meeting a therapist (a good one) and taking professional help is the easiest and most preferable route when you hit a rut.


Touting therapy as incredible effective is at least a little dishonest. I know very many people who saw no benefit from it despite great expense.

Think: If you see benefit from therapy are you not more likely to keep going?


Honestly, a lot of people who see therapists do keep going. A friend put it to me this way: you're paying money for perspective and objectivity, and this is especially true for people in relationships. It also takes time and effort to find a therapist who is a good fit for you. If the therapist is not a good fit for you, then there will be little benefit.

Therapy has helped me anyway.


I know, I'm pointing out that trains of thought similar to "I was unsure of therapy but liked it and kept going" are not going to be universal because maybe there is some underlying thing that makes you more likely to be helped by therapy.

Uncharitably I've seen this framed as something like "therapists only help people with simple problems."


> Touting therapy as incredible effective is at least a little dishonest. I know very many people who saw no benefit from it despite great expense.

When someone recommends therapy, just treat it like you would any other recommendation that doesn’t need to trigger a “that doesn’t apply universally!” response. Nobody is forcing anyone to do therapy. Many people find it helpful. Many people don’t. Still quite reasonable for GP to say “therapy helps” with an implied “in my opinion.”


Except in this instance OP specifically mentioned therapy as advice he was not looking for. So it's odd and paternalistic if not downright rude that the #1 comment advises just that.


..among many other things. And they didn’t say they didn’t want therapy as advice, they specifically did ask for advice beyond therapy but that doesn’t mean they are going to be offended by someone saying “but also, if you aren’t in therapy, try it.” And calling this “paternalistic” when someone is saying they hate their life and is asking for advice is completely uncalled for. Your overly-strong anti-therapy stance is noted but it doesn’t really have anything to do with the OP and the commenter you are responding to.


It is the very definition of paternalistic to tell someone who wants something other than x, x, and "for their own good".

And I am neither anti-therapy nor pro-therapy (only a simpleton would have an unnuanced position on such a complex topic). Next time please refrain from attempting to put words into my mouth, it is disrespectful and adds nothing of value to your comment.


> meeting a therapist (a good one) and taking professional help is the easiest and most preferable route when you hit a rut.

"Professional help" is not always positive. If you have internal issues to fix, external help may or may not be the right thing for you. There's absolutely no standard approach for this kind of things.

> a therapist (a good one)

So what they end up with a bad one, was that good advice?


To add on to this on a somewhat tangential note, it's important to understand that there are other conditions that can also cause "depression-like" symptoms. Are you extremely disorganized, forever late, super messy and procrastinate all the time leading to disappointment with yourself and a general feeling of unhappiness due to missed potential? Congrats, (some of) those are classic AD(H)D symptoms. Autism can be mistaken for ADHD. ADHD can be mistaken for BPD. (And of course ADHD can be mistaken for depression).

It's important to understand the possibilities. Fortunately today with the internet it's easy to search for symptoms and go to a doctor, and I'd highly recommend that to OP and anyone else who thinks they might need it.


I don't know about depression.

However, OP seems unhappy with their current life and is unsure how to fix it. Therapy often can help with that - its not just for depressed people.


Sometimes people are a bit depressed because their life situation is a bit depressing. It can be better to fix the situation.


That is what therapists do (among other things)


The word « apathy » is a pretty important one, and that’s what they responded to. Depression is not necessarily accompanied with suicidal thoughts and dark feelings. For many depressed people, « apathy » is a pretty accurate description. So maybe that person is not clinically depressed, but the advice of mentioning the apathy to the OP’s PCP STILL STANDS, and the possibility of OP exhibiting signs of depression does too


You could argue that their language was too definitive ("you're depressed"), but it was said to coax OP into seeking professional help. So it's all good


Further ideas for activities:

- activism: go canvas for a politician you like

- charity work: lots of people down at the soup kitchen, the local thrift shop, etc


I cannot say enough nice things about volunteering at a soup kitchen, food pantry, or Habitat for Humanity. Somewhere where people who are not as economically or situationally fortunate as you go.

You'll feel better for doing good things for people who need good things.

And you'll also feel better because it'll give you a truer baseline to look at your own life. Are there things you want to change? Sure! But it's easy to forget what you've got, viscerally.

IMHO, a huge part of suburban malaise is losing touch with what the worst life problems look like. Which isn't to say your problems aren't valid or real! But is to say that "My life is all problems" happens a lot more when we've forgotten the possibility of not having a roof, food in the fridge, electricity and water on, etc.


> go canvas for a politician you like

This one might be a bit tricky...


[flagged]


Would you please not do this here?


I mostly agree with zanzibar735 except I disagree with their depression prognosis — its loneliness imho and its a silent killer.

I firmly second their advice on seeing a therapist.

As you age “living your best life” will take different forms. You just have to stick with trying to “live your best life”.

Good luck and I hope this discussion here gives you some actionable advice that you can implement.


> The more non-nerdy, the more likely you are to find non-nerdy people

Just be careful what you are asking for. Non-nerdy people are becoming extremely boring in their 30's. I'm not sure why you would prefer discussing celebrities/sports results/car/superficial politics with good looking people instead of having a great time and connecting with people and not caring about how they look.

Hopefully you can find interesting (/nerdy in the sense they like to learn deeply and methodically about a subject) people in nearly every activity.


It's not about looks, it's about social skills. Can someone be friendly, make friends, make you feel good. Or are they awkward, unpleasant and weird.


Social skills are a large set. Being introvert/shy and awkward in large gatherings doesn’t mean you can’t be a good friend. That stereotype of geeks all being “asocial assholes on the spectrum” belongs to the previous century, I don’t know, maybe watch a few YouTube D&D games to update your views.


"you're depressed"

Don't listen to this guy. Don't let people keyboard diagnose you. You can go falk to a therapist if you want an actual diagnosis (although you state that you don't, which seems fine to me).


I’d also add, go pay $45 to a real hair stylist and mention to them that you’re “new to the area” and looking to meet people. Hair stylists know an incredible number of people and many people use their hair stylist as therapy sessions. As long as you’re not creepy and you come across as a “normal enough” person, they’re more than happy to make some introductions or tell you where the cool people are.


> getting into a group of "normal" friends, of both genders, to hang out and laugh with, seems like an impossible goal.

> So let me be the first to tell you that you're depressed

Yup. OP, sounds like you could do well with (and afford) tele-therapy.


BJJ is also fun hobby. Involves same pattern recognition as programming and builds comradery. Sometimes it’s fun to fantasize how you’d choke the hell out of the PM that annoys you :)


Take a look at https://youtu.be/0BMKpodJidI


I have often been told im good at making friends and I think you can make them anytime, anywhere, anyhow, the first thing to focus on is your personal mindset and build from there:

  1. Just say yes. When someone asks for anything, say yes, no matter how big or small (help them move out, look after their dog) This will put you into novel situations.
  2. Show genuine interest in things. Ask why, learn more, dig deeper, keep conversations going by trying to share anything you think is slightly relevant.
  3. Dress up. Wear things that stick out, even just a bit, a funky shirt, a nice bright pair of socks, use these to add flare to a standard dark blue and grey world, people will reflect back and be interested in you.
  4. Pick one new thing you want to master (not online) my advice here for all round great friend activities - Rockclimbing, Pub Quizes, Boardgame nights, Cycling, Pottery. Each of these almost always need another person to make them work and that helps you grow your confidence.
  5. Don't work so hard. Tell your boss you wanna slow it down, try and do 4 day weeks, give back some commitments, take a pay cut. Don't quit just slow it down and give your head some space.
I'm 35, I just quit my /Director of Product role at a successful startup because I wasn't happy. I'm about to go to Thailand to learn how to become a yoga teacher, not for a career but for a disciplined adventure that will deeply enrich me and is nowhere near a computer! You can do it! Put a plan in motion.

HN Believes in you! :D


> I have often been told im good at making friends and I think you can make them anytime, anywhere, anyhow

Thanks, what a great list! Would you mind sharing some more tips? :)

How do you go from talking to someone during some hobby activity to a friendship outside of that activity? In the past I had lots of good conversations with people met through hobbies, only to go back home and never speak to them again. How do you stay in touch with people you don't know very well, without being weird / imposing?

> I'm about to go to Thailand to learn how to become a yoga teacher, not for a career but for a disciplined adventure that will deeply enrich me and is nowhere near a computer!

Sounds like a solid plan, good luck!


You start with the hobby activity, stick with it, and add other things! The hobby is the first glue, but then add dinner, movies, games, conversations. Conversational skill is also a developed one, not innate. IMO, talking about things and ideas is best. Conversation works best when both people Learn and teach, but nobody is trying to be right.


I do a bunch of Meetups and watched this happen a bunch (EDIT: the going to a hobby event and never speaking again that is). About a year and a half after meeting a fellow regular of a hiking Meetup I finally felt not awkward inviting the lady and her husband to a board game night with my wife. Maybe the key step is to get with the regulars (or volunteer to be the coordinator?). I think the couple I've befriended have the same problem I have, which is why their schedule is so open for my silly ideas for socializing!

In my case the gateway to friendship was more hikes, and vaguely stale board game nights. We're trying to do something (making friends) that's difficult, that much is clear!


> How do you go from talking to someone during some hobby activity to a friendship outside of that activity?

This is where having multiple hobbies not only adds depth to conversations & makes you more interesting, it allows you to cross-pollinate your friend groups from each hobby. If you join a cross fit gym and a running group (as others have mentioned in the thread), then you invite someone from the gym to the group or vice versa.

The invitation can either be a "I think you'd really enjoy this activity", in which case you're introducing them to something new and cool, or it can be "I think you'd really like the people I do X with" in which case you're helping them meet friends.

People who take you up on the offer to either try something new or meet new people with you as their guide are sure to become friends. You get to see each other in new elements and your relationship can now trascend simply doing one activity together.

I think this approach feels a lot more natural than jumping straight to "hey, I've seen you at the rock gym a bunch, let's get coffee?" which can feel like a big jump and somewhat forced.


> How do you go from talking to someone during some hobby activity to a friendship outside of that activity

Ask them for their phone number and text them to invite them to things, even if just to lunch


> I'm about to go to Thailand to learn how to become a yoga teacher, not for a career but for a disciplined adventure that will deeply enrich me and is nowhere near a computer!

As someone who has spent 3+ years backpacking around the world the Eat Pray Love life changing experience is 99% bullshit. Travel is fun. That's why I did it. But life changing? Nope. Came back and life was pretty much the same except that my job prospects were worse. The only concrete positive I can point to is a significant improvement in my online dating profile.

As the saying goes, "Wherever you go there you are".


> Came back and life was pretty much the same

GP said "disciplined adventure" so they might be on a path to become a yoga instructor ? Like actually develop a passion for yoga and teach people when they come back home.

> who has spent 3+ years backpacking around the world

Looks like what you were doing was something different. You were just wandering around with no specific goal or discipline ?


I would like to second saying "yes" ... however, the intuition for saying "yes" is that you should become /more open/ to experiences by lowering a threshold of openness a bit. That's a valid and more comfortable approach, but I think it's better to instead say yes more to things that you would not normally do in a thousand years (aside from those with real safety/moral concerns - drugs, cheating, etc.)

If someone invites me to another board game night but I feel like playing videogames by myself, it may be ok to say no. If someone wants me to do something utterly dreadful like dance surrounded by people who actually know how, watch superbowl, or make [the first I ever made, but they don't know that] pie for their birthday, then I have to do it. Well, not all the time, but I used to do it for a month at a time and I made friends a lot this way, and also met my now-wife :)


The problem with your first solution is that there’a nobody requesting help from in the first place.

2 and 3, I’ve tried those but people just don’t se to reciprocate or just don’t want to add another person to their group.

It’s tough.


I love this advice. As a 31 y/o in another country. The mindset of saying "yes" to all, has brought me great stuff.

I got it from the movie "Yes, man". Its surprisingly good advice


I’m curious. Why not learn yoga in India(from where it originated). What does Thailand have that India doesn’t?


Much higher quality of life, including personal safety (important if OP is a woman).


Lax visa requirements


> not for a career but for a disciplined adventure that will deeply enrich me

This reads like that scene from Dunder Mifflin company when the temp CEO was leaving.


I felt similar to you while living in Kentucky and turning 30. It felt like all my friends had moved onto the next phase of their life and I wasn't ready for that. I felt unmotivated and stuck, but also felt guilty because I had an income and a job that I felt I should be happy to have.

Moving to NYC completely changed my perspective and my life. Moving also had other impacts: it forced a change of scenery, forced me to make new friends, learn about new parks, learn all new neighborhoods to walk through with no prior memories, I felt inspired with new ideas for the first time in a long time, forced new hobbies and ways of spending time (hello volleyball! hello going to 5 networking events in one night!) and the process of introducing myself to new people over and over made me realize I didn't like what I was doing for work.

I'm not advocating for NYC specifically. I was in Austin last weekend and felt a similar draw there, so if I was 30 and in that stuck spot today that's probably where I'd go to start. There's an energy that dense cities have that forces change, in my experience.

Good luck to you! It can be a very rewarding journey.


Completely agree regarding dense cities. Just to add to this, I recently moved to NYC from the west coast at the ripe age of 40. I decided to join a co-working space so I could meet new people (I did not know anyone here). It has been surprisingly easy to meet new friends, something I was worried about when thinking about moving. I'm not an extrovert person by any means and still in the span of 4-5 months I've met enough people that I have no problems finding someone I like to hang out with on a regular basis.


> short guys looking for girlfriends

> All the "normal" people

Lol thanks. I used to have self-confidence issues because I'm short. Spent a lot of time at university feeling sorry for myself, unable to make friends or see myself as worthy of a girlfriend.

Eventually realised that it's mostly in my head. I got over my self-esteem issues, went out and spoke to a stranger (ikr isn't that crazy?!) and he became my best friend. We travelled a bit and I met a whole bunch of girls who really liked me (at parties, on campus, etc). Life basically finds ways to disprove every dumb assumption you have, in my experience.

That was a couple years ago. Pandemic put my social life on pause.

I think the "go to dance lessons" advice is so dumb because it just means all the people who are at dance lessons are looking for something other than to learn to dance.

My advice is go to bar or a club and dance with strangers (where everybody is there to have fun and mingle). Go alone, YOLO. Also, if you don't live in a city, move to a city.

Go to a different country. You're probably rich lol you have nothing to worry about.

Good luck


I'll add to part of your statement. I'm 5'7" and in school people told me I was short. I felt self conscious about it up until through dating.

For me, what it did is made me the most confident person I know - or frankly have ever met. It made me know myself. What I've found is taller guys, generally lack strong self confidence because people defer to them without real work. I then realized most people are followers, and question themselves constantly.

Once past the general "people look naturally to a taller person", I found that I can outclass them. My dad independently found the same thing, and once told me "To find the man with the lowest self confidence, just look up".


Very well put. Not just tall/short but physical beauty in general tends to push or pull people with it in a particular direction (be it career/friendships/relationships). To think of it in another way, they are as much trapped with it as the person with bad looks whether they want it or not.

For many good looking people, its a big problem when the short span of these once awesome physical attributes start to reach its eventual decline. They don't have any self confidence and self worth not tied to their looks. And from then on a its a life long fight to keep looking the same through cosmetics or surgery.


Great points - you're absolutely right


Many years ago I used to be really conscious of my hearing aids - badly so. A few years before I got my cochlear implant I ingested six tabs of LSD and a friend drove me around all night (still one of my best friends to this day, we met in intermediate) and he just let me chill and have those amazing "mind blown" moments.

One moment that I'll remember forever was the fact that nobody cares if you're deaf, or have hearing aids. In fact, maybe that's why people are so rude (because I've missed what they said - take a checkout operator at the supermarket asking me how my day is going and I don't reply ) so the very next day I got a #1 haircut, went to a hardware store and the guy I asked for help saw my hearing aids and instantly perked up and was super happy to help me - but he was shaking quite a bit (anxious perhaps?) I still often come across someone who gets nervous when talking to me!!

It was a really great way to fix those terrible misconceptions I had of myself.


So your solution is ... do drugs?


Thank you sharing this. Because of social delays as a child, I didn't realize I was kinda short until after becoming an adult and it has really fucked with my head. Success stories like this make me thing it'll be okay.


as a short man myself I agree that simply changing location or target audience can get you a partner.

However it's not about how you see yourself and how confident you are so much, people will subconsciously judge you anyway and have more affinity to taller people than you. Nothing you can do about that. Just accept some people will like you and most won't.


> some people will like you and most won't

No way dude. If most people dislike you there's something else wrong, probably the way you act.


As a 5'3 guy who is socially active I have a few nuances to add. It's not that people or even women won't like you. Women, even tall women will like you. They may even think you're cute or attractive. However, they will likely not be interested in dating you. Women tend to have an ability to see a man as valuable even if he's not "dateable."


> Women, even tall women will like you.

Not at the start. Most women are not attracted to manlets. Women enjoy dressing up and wearing heels. The last thing a woman wants is to tower over the manlet in photographs.

One can't change genetics, but focusing on other things, like improving one's net worth, will make him more atteactive.


The bad news is it sounds like you have absolutely nothing.

The good news is it sounds like you have absolutely nothing.

How I would love to move to Taiwan or Vietnam for six months making my current salary and work remote right now.

Or even one month.

Wouldn’t it be fun to go to Europe, take a train across the continent and work on a laptop.

Or an Airbnb in Barbados.

Who convinced you that you have to stay in this little box at a time when developer jobs are in unlimited supply?

Where did you learn that you have to constrain your options to your local environment only?

And I will tell you: The city and location do matter. You may not be crazy to conclude that only other people like yourself settle for a work / life balance like this in that city.

A small local demographic problem turns into a major existential problem for you. No one young and fun wants to live in a boring ass city, suburb or financial center bereft of culture.

Go to Nashville. Go to Colorado.

I have been very surprised visiting Chicago, for example, at how vibrant and different and friendly people were.

And visiting Austin. Wow, you can go to live music all night for $15 and walk around between bars and there is culture to experience.

Or in Taipei. Woah, people hang out in cafes reading books at 2am at all night bookstores.

If you feel like your life sucks and your environment sucks, it probably does.

Lot of people I know literally just book a ticket and stay in hostels around Japan or Asia or Europe. Cheap, meet people, work remote.

Biggest challenge is going to be your unwillingness to take even the smallest risk. That is on you.


Ha. Yeah. At 35, I was in OP’s frame of mind. I pulled the ripcord.

I sold my modest house. Quit my job. Started traveling. I had one friend in VN who left two weeks after I arrived. Through online dating apps and running clubs, I met a ton of new friends and lived in several countries. It wasn’t all roses. There were so really lonely times, but I went through that in the States, too.

Basically, if you are lucky enough to be healthy and able to scrape together $30k (a lot for some, I know), then you can live a pretty fascinating life for a year in a ton of fascinating places.


yea I am doing that right now, Loneliness is no joke. Most important thing i struggle with is maintaining postive mindset and not go into a negative spiral.


I hope you are doing alright. Everyone is different, but for me, finding a steady girlfriend and full time work resolved my most accuse depression. All the “freedom” was exciting, but it came at a cost.


People who can make friends at 2am on Thailand can also make friends with their coworkers and neighbors. Lonely loners at home become lonely loners on Thailand.


Countering with a lesson I leaned the hard way: if you're depressed and you go to Europe you'll be depressed in Europe.

Traveling may not be a bad idea, but it won't necessarily fix anything because "wherever you go, there you are"


You reminded me of this song: https://open.spotify.com/track/2Z77xPgph4BVaW8BgzVZrp?si=c-1...

And I believe what you say is very true, although I'm one of the ones that easily move and embrace the change - I think I keep doing it for the fun and the challenge and simply out of curiosity. At least that's what I tell myself, since I've had to _really_ think if I was trying to run away from anything whenever I did choose to move, exactly because of that expression and of this song.

ps. I also went into my notes and found this gem, which I've really enjoyed reading some time ago: https://moretothat.com/travel-is-no-cure-for-the-mind/


Damn. You said it better than I could and I'm living it. Yes. The location absolutely matters. Our environments create our behavior and our thoughts. Change the environment, change the person. Most people can't do it, but this person absolutely can.


terrible advice. Travel around! be a transplant! uproot yourself again and again, continually running from your problems! distraction! the FOOD, oh god the FOOD! gimme a break lol.


Weigh the ROI of changing your environment vs changing yourself

A lot of people on HN are do-it-yourself, bootstrap types. So you'll naturally get "why don't you just do XYZ."

There's merit in that, but sometimes changing the environment is more effective. That environment may be literal physical location (closer to friends or activities you're interested in), a job environment (different industry) or, at a smaller scale, your home environment. I finally started updating my place and having friends over and it's made a huge difference.

On a personal note: a hard lesson I had to learn for myself is that having fun (as weird as it sounds) is my responsibility. I found that I tended to look "outwards" for stimulation, fun, validation...waiting for the world to give me things.

Hanging out with people who were great at cultivating their own fun & energy helped me realize 1) this is something I could cultivate and 2) I was shirking responsibility.

IMO this cultivation of one's own energy is a long, internal journey. But worth it.

Good luck mate.


I am having a similar problem as OP (in my 30s now but yearn for the social environment of 20 somethings) and am debating digital nomading a bit to change my environment, as where I live seems to pose a lot of psychological inertia since I spent most of my life here and fall into the same patterns - everything seems like I've "been there and done that". The idea of weighing the ROI and being responsible for my own fun is a much needed reminder so thank you for this comment, I really needed it.


While perhaps a loaded suggestion, if you have the tolerance for it, I’d suggest attending a church. You can utilize the social aspect without fully committing to the spiritual aspects.

The reason I suggest it is because of it’s role as the post-college college where you can build deep relationships and people of all ages are genuinely wanting to network specifically to build a community. They’re not doing happy hours etc. to boost their social capital, they’re in it for the long haul. Also, building relationships with people of all ages is extremely important and rewarding/fulfilling.

I agree with moving to a city or trying to tap into more social stuff. But i also find those relationships to be quite shallow. You bounce around a lot from one shallow connection to another. Dinner once/twice a month with group A. A group to play a sport with on Saturday Afternoon. Another group to do X scheduled event with on cadence Y. For me, and my wife, we found ourselves in that pattern in our 30s. She had her friend circles/silos and I had mine and then we had the a third type of circle for us as a couple. It was nearly impossible for these to overlap. Why would her floral design hobby girls be interested in attending a heavy metal concert with some of my metal head friends.

We missed having deeper friendships. We always used the example of of how when we were younger and not even necessarily coupled at the time we both had friends that just popped in our houses. Never had to be planned or for any purpose. They were always welcomed and were just a constant in our lives. Going to church helped us build those types of friendships.

I’m not even spiritual and I avoid a lot of the overly churchy parts. I do agree with the high level value/moral systems being promoted and enjoy the sermon parts. I look for the speaker who delivers nearly secular messages. It can feel like a life lesson or motivational speech that’s based on teachings of whatever book they believe in.


Can you really decouple all the religious things and just focus on friends building? As an atheist I would feel like an impostor there and to myself for using that place just to make friends.

Also sounds like you skip most of the talks and just go for the church afterparty?


This truly is terrible advice.

The worst thing that could happen would be your life gets wrapped into a religious community. This is why people of seeming average intelligence stay in churches. Everyone is pretending to believe the nonsense because if anyone admits (often even just to themselves) just how stupid it is, poof goes their friends, community, perhaps even their marriage.

> I’m not even spiritual and I avoid a lot of the overly churchy parts.

Literally EVERY SINGLE PERSON in a church says this. I knew of a literal cult, whose leaders ended up in jail, and THEY said this. Everyone says this because what's written in these books is indefensibly stupid that it's embarrassing.


I'm an atheist or at best agnostic, but I've met and known many highly intelligent people who are also religious. It's not mutually exclusive.


So we have an idea that is false. Demonstrably false we can agree. Also, anecdotes aside for a moment overwhelmingly higher religious beliefs correlate with lower intelligence.

So, back to the anecdote, why in the case of someone being intelligent by your judgement would they believe this story, with ample evidence easily accessible to refute it?

- They've never considered it critically--ok that's possible - They've considered it critically and decided it's true--I'd argue they either haven't or they're not - They have developed a cognitive disconnect to protect themselves from loss of community, connection to their family, or fear of death

I am nearly certain that the last item accounts for the great majority, which is why this is such a dangerous suggestion. There is a real risk of losing your agency as an individual for of the rest of your life. I have seen this happen to many many people. I have seen many many people (literally 100s) who joined a church around when they were in their 30s just drawn in by the "community" only to become deeply disillusioned now in their 60 and 70 and feel that they had lost or wasted their youth and full of regrets. These institutions have spent thousands of years refining techniques for manipulating people, and their preferred primary prey is children and 30-somethings who feel "lost" exactly as the OP describes. They literally produce videos and training materials stating such.


To veer a little off track, I used to be a huge fan of Richard Dawkins back in college until I realized his approach just creates friction and polarization. The opposite of what he crusades for.

The astrophysicists have a way better approach than the biologists. It's non-confrontational.

But my point is that I don't think it's impossible for atheists and religious folks to be friends. Or even date and get married. Mutual respect and communication goes a long way.


> To veer a little off track, I used to be a huge fan of Richard Dawkins back in college until I realized his approach just creates friction and polarization. The opposite of what he crusades for.

That's exactly what he crusades for; he’s not anti-friction or anti-polarization (on religion or any of his other pet issues), he's a zealous bigot.

> The astrophysicists have a way better approach than the biologists. It's non-confrontational.

There are plenty of non-confrontational biologists. Dawkins doesn't represent “biologists” he represents Dawkins.


Yeah I don't think on HN I'm actually talking to very many people who would for example, not believe that species evolved via natural selection, that there was global flood that killed everyone except one family, that the earth is 6000 years old, that all the inhabitants of the new world before 1492 were sent to hell by a Mesopotamian sky-god, or that gay men and disobedient children should be stoned to death. No, I think I'm preaching to the choir here, to borrow a phrase, and I don't engage in this kind of debate anyway because it isn't worth my time.

Specifically I'm saying going to church for community is a terrible, dangerous idea. That even if you don't believe in what they're saying, that it is like going to a Neo-Nazi meetup for the pancakes. Even if they're like really, really good pancakes and you can't find pancakes anywhere else as good and these particular Nazis are not too serious about the whole Nazi thing, you may find yourself getting involved with more than you expected and find that leaving or even admitting you want to is more difficult that you expected.

This is not innocuous; there are many, many religious groups out there deliberately and strategically targeting people like the OP, and train their members to do the same. This is the primary way that cults recruit people who aren't indoctrinated as children.


You're right and wrong. It can be culty or not. It's buyer beware and requires due diligence.

I suggested this and my relationship with the church is openly agnostic. I have no qualms about discussing my opinions of religion as it relates to my belief. I don't feel the need to bend to their world view, change my beliefs, etc.

Regarding the people that get sucked into those types of churches. The ones you say they're actively recruiting (I would not disagree). But, this may be controversial, but I believe those folks typically have some void in their life to begin with. They're going to fill that void with something eventually and probably at an unhealthy dosage. It might be drugs, religion, politics, sex, abusive relationship, etc. They may not realize it, but they have a desire to be in a "cult". So, I don't fully believe the cult is to blame. There simply is a market for cults and demand will get met.

I think especially for our HN audience here, it's more about not falling into that trap. Doing your due diligence. Stay true to yourself and avoid any of this BS cult stuff you bring up as a valid concern. Honestly it sounds like you just live in a very racist part of the country where the KKK's never disappeared they just moved the meetings to church. That or you're very much indoctrinated in the bad parts of religion while ignoring the healthy parts.


Thank you for posting this. I was reconsidering writing a response to that, but you phrased it very well.

An excellent eye opening article I have read about this: https://www.lesswrong.com/posts/N2pENnTPB75sfc9kb/outside-th... which discusses scientists believing in religion. The arguments also apply to any rational person who forms beliefs based on evidence which I would say is a necessary property to be intelligent. Hence it irks me when someone says "intelligent people believe in god too"


There are tons of things like this outside of religion. Almost every coherent group of people believes in some sort of nonsense for political reasons, and as a form of identity signaling.

- Many people in this community believe that a female soul can be mis-allocated to a male body, for example.

- Many people in this community believe that Trump was involved in a conspiracy with Putin to take over the USA.

- Many people in this community believe that democracy is a form of government that gives the population more power than other forms of government.

All of these beliefs are rather silly, but are accepted as dogma and critique is unwelcome.

----

I do agree, however, that the Christian church is predatory. It is matriarchal and is basically a system of domestication. However, the fact that they employ dogma is not the problem, all groups employ dogma.


Seems like this is political flamebait, but I don't think I've ever seen the first point phrased in such a way that it refers to a soul. This makes me wonder, what part of that do you believe is nonsense? The existence of the soul?


I have no interest in arguing against any of these points here.

All I am claiming is that they are a form of dogma. These beliefs look very silly to everyone outside of this culture.

They seem silly to everyone. To every other culture in the world, and to every culture of the past.

And yet, critiquing them within this culture is dangerous.


It seems to me quite plainly clear that people exist who are confused about their gender and my understanding is that people like this exist in all cultures. I actually learned many years ago that Native Americans had a concept of something of a "third gender" which suggested to me that it's a universal human variation.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Two-spirit

What I had never considered was to mix in the idea of a soul - it's actually curious because I never thought that the soul (if you believe in such a thing) would be gendered and it adds a curious layer to the whole situation. But now reading a little more about native beliefs, it seems that the two-spirit term actually thinks about it more as two souls within one body.

I find it all rather fascinating and hard to reduce down to silly dogma.


The Thais have similar concept as well (third gender), but it isn't the same as the western Transgenderism construct.

> I find it all rather fascinating and hard to reduce down to silly dogma.

The phenomena itself isn't what I'm talking about. The specific belief that "Transgender women are women and they were born that way", and the enforcement of that belief, that is dogma.

Similarly, the belief that "some people are homosexual and some people are not, they are born one way or the other". This isn't consistent with reality, and isn't what other cultures believe. However, this is considered foundational, unquestionable truth in our culture.


Ah, I think I can spot the difference, but it seems like a fairly trivial one to me. I bet cultures that categorize these people into a third gender would be offended if you mis-gendered them as well. And lol, I'm not too interested in going down the sexuality rabbit hole (hey-oh!) but suffice it to say it seems like in both instances you've got some people who see a spectrum and some who see a dichotomy. I don't think it's any surprise that I'm in the camp who sees a spectrum. I also understand wishing it all were a lot simpler.


> but it seems like a fairly trivial one to me.

I don't see the difference as trivial.

The reality is that, across many cultures, there are men that have a strong desire to abandon the masculine role and to live quasi-female lives. The Thai and native american understanding matches this reality.

Our culture-makers decided to apply a specific dogma to this phenomena, and to propagate that dogma by force. That dogma has effects on society and was implemented because of it's effects on society. (For example, reality does not imply that this phenomena should be tolerated or that efforts to minimize it are pointless, but the dogma does)

Now compare this to the original topic. It was claimed that belief in God is stupid, and for stupid people.

However, almost every culture has some sort of concept of god(s). When people interact with god(s), something consistent is happening inside their experience. It is a real phenomena (like the Third Gender stuff is a real phenomena).

Christianity takes this phenomena and captures it inside a specific set of beliefs. God is all-powerful, all-knowing, all-loving. He sent his son to die for your sins. Blah, blah.

These beliefs form a dogma. However, the reality of the god-phenomena does not justify the god-dogma. And, when people argue against the belief in God, they argue against the specific dogmatic god-construct that exists in modern Christianity.

But Christian culture is built on the god-dogma. So, christians reject people that reject the dogma, and continue to accept the dogma in the face of critique.

This is a direct parallel to the Transgenderism dogma. That's what I'm arguing. Almost all smart people submit to dogmas.

The reason why smart people are suddenly rejecting the Christian dogma (after submitting to it for centuries) is that they are strongly incentivized to do so. And you can see that in how smart people are simply submitting to new dogmas, instead of now rejecting all dogmas.

The move away from Christiantity isn't a triumph over dogma, it's just a new religion taking hold.


Triviality is in the eye of the beholder no doubt, so I'm not surprised that we differ.

But I just have a hard time seeing any one dogma in modern US society surrounding gender identity. Certainly there are people who believe they are women from birth, and with modern medicine like hormonal and surgical treatments, they can do far more to alter their biology to get closer to their preferred gender; an option only recently available in any human culture. But there are also people who consider themselves truly non-binary, and I'm sure many identities that I'm unaware of.

Mostly the only dogma I see (and the one I try to hold to) could basically just be summed up as "try to be nice to people and address them as they'd like you to". I've known a fairly surprising number of transgender people at all stages of transition, and it's actually never something I've needed to talk with them about or make a big deal of.


My personal view on Transgenderism is that it should be seen in basically the same way as drug addiction.

Drugs also occur naturally and many people dabble in them without much harm. But drug addiction is truly destructive, and almost impossible to escape from.

We shouldn't be encouraging people that we care about to sterilize themselves, or treating the path to that lightly.

This view is quite unacceptable within the dogma.


I would guess that sterilization is among the most common medical procedures that people under-go between vasectomies, tubal litigations, IUDs, and hormonal options. Transgenderism might be the most elaborate way to go about it, though I believe in some cases they can remain fertile or delay procedures until after having children - I'd imagine it's a consideration when they talk to a doctor.


> I do agree, however, that the Christian church is predatory. It is matriarchal and is basically a system of domestication.

First, outside of the increasingly unrealized ecumenical aspirations of the various Christian Churches, there is no “the Christian Church” in the sense of a single human institution.

And virtually none of the various Christian Churches are matriarchal, they tend to be quite patriarchal, both internally and in the structure they advocate for broader society.


The real litmus test for high intelligence is if they were not anti-vaxxers and actively sought vaccinations.


Honest question - was this sarcasm?


It's not sarcastic at all but I suppose it's sort of tongue-in-cheek?

Antivaxxers are probably not highly intelligent.. But they will think they are because of Dunning-Kruger effect.


> Antivaxxers are probably not highly intelligent.. But they will think they are because of Dunning-Kruger effect.

DK is basically “people of all ability levels tend to see themselves slightly closer to the 70th percentile than they are”, not “people at the bottom see themselves at the top”.


Wow, ok. So it's meant as an idea which in today's world is often unconventional yet used to be very normal not very long ago. Whether we/you like it or not, organizing around faith is quite foundational to humans in general.

Obviously the OP and any reader needs to evaluate their personal situation and appetite for this and also evaluate any church they attend. Not all churches are cults. Most modern churches with younger crowds have steered away from preachy aspects and see themselves as building a faith based community. Being good citizens in a community that loosely believe in the same thing. That's why nondenominational christian churches are increasingly popular. The concerns you raised are true of traditional and culty type churches, certain denominations, etc that make waves and I think you're projecting the headlines/horror stories you've heard onto religion as a whole while ignoring Millions of people have healthy relationships with their church so this blanket statement of terrible advice is just ignorant.

FWIW, I consider myself agnostic and can filter away BS that isn't aligned with my personal take or just avoid the stuff that I have no interest in (eg. bible school). It's very much like politics. I don't have to believe what you believe we can coexist and maybe we have some minor overlap that we can connect on.


Sounds like you're heavily projecting. This post is literally the definition of projection. Just read your post over again and realize how toxic and demeaning and unbearable you sound. Maybe look deeply into how much of an asshole your are, and then maybe that'll give you a clue why you hate your life.

But to give real advice to you in a less flippant manner, start embracing who you are. You're going to end up in your 40s fantasizing about living a stereotypical and neurotypical extrovert life like a frat boy and constantly hating and rejecting people who nerdy and geeky only to realize how much time you wasted trying to be someone you aren't. You have people to hang out with. You just reject them because you hate yourself, you have always had a thing against awkward and nerdy people, even though that's who you are.

Trust me, many people on the borderline of smart and cool during their highschool go through this phase. It's taking you till your 30s to learn this, but you will learn it soon. You will learn how superficial these labels are and how the only thing that matters is finding some people that care for you and that you care for them. You're literally self-hating by announcing your distaste for the stereotypical 'outcasts' of society. Because you would be in that group too.

I actually hope you get what you want, a nice friend group full of 'normal' non-autistic, non-awkward, non-short, non-old, outgoing, and non-ugly people. I hope you get that dream and anything else you want- because you will quickly realize that it's not the answer. ~stolen slightly changed quote from Jim Carrey.


Instead of the usual advice of taking-up hobbies, I think what's more interesting to talk about:

1. What is the definition of fun?

  - I imagine for most introverts, a loud party and getting drunk is not our definition of fun.
2. Is there a causal relationship between a Dev Career and social isolation?

  - Most dev work is working in isolation and for introverts this is a blessing, but for extroverts this can be depressing. But is this true all the time? or is this just because of the pandemic? Is this true for all dev jobs or maybe it depends on the company? Is being a software developer and an extrovert inherently incompatible?
3. What makes a person attractive to hang-out with?

  - What makes other lonely developers unattractive to hang-out with? Is it because they're introverted? Other lonely developers are more likely to be intelligent, friendly, have financial resources, etc.. even if socially awkward.
4. What's the end goal?

  - Is it just to party together, have adventures and potentially meet attractive women? Or is it to build lasting relationships and meet a person to settle down with?
It's interesting to me because I usually find guys who want to party to be annoying and un-interesting but maybe that's just because I'm introverted and/or boring. I'd probably find other lonely developers to be much more interesting people than people that like to party.


While there may not be a causal relationship between a dev career and social isolation, I feel they are orthogonal. Unlike a product manager or a sales person, there is not as much incentive to build a social circle, and to acquire the skills that let you build a social circle wherever you go. So your circle-building skills slowly atrophy, unless you are a social animal and put in extra-effort in your own time.

As many people have pointed out, building a social circle takes a lot of time, effort, and most importantly skill. Building one in college is easy because when you have bunch of young people (united by alcohol) in the same place with roughly the same mission, circles form automatically. Out in the real world, now with the added drama of the pandemic and all the social fallout, the bar is much higher.

At least OP had a good group in college and had some fun times. I shudder to think of the current and next few graduating classes who have to endure "online learning" and a very reduced social circle. I have no clue what that is going to lead to.


Great comment, this actually made me realize that I have a fixed mindset when it comes to socializing. Instead of a growth mindset, that socializing is a skill that needs to be practiced and can be improved.

My problem though is that I rarely know how to make casual conversation correctly. I usually think of asking questions but this usually comes-off as being too much like an interrogation. Anybody have tips on making casual conversation unawkward?


> Anybody have tips on making casual conversation unawkward?

Asking questions by itself is not the problem, it's the way of asking. I usually start by asking where the person is from and their hobbies. From there I try to relate it to something I know, I have read, or even a personal anecdot. When you start sharing, if the person is interest, they should start sharing as well, you're talking about something they kind of have some interest in.


Something like sports is tailor-made for casual conversation. Sports/movies/TV-shows are really valuable in providing mostly non-controversial gossip.


I was in a similar rut 'round about 2013. I won't go into details, but sans a very small number of solid-as-granite people, my group of friends disintegrated for various reasons, including everyone I know getting married off, having kids, and being absorbed by one or the other.

I got off of my ass. I moved to a completely new geographic area. I sampled every aspect, every neighborhood of my target area, and I looked for the things that made the time prior so good. I found it, and I got to take a second spin through the best time of my single life. I met outstanding people, made lifelong friendships, partied like there was no tomorrow, met my wife, had my kids, kept my friendships, kept the best parts of partying, and found an incredible life. I liked who I was. I didn't like where I was, physically, spiritually, and metaphysically.

I'm in my 40s now. I just spent the day dressed up like a pirate catching beads, pounding beers, ripping shots of rum, laughing with friends, being absolutely ridiculous, and came back to a 3 year old telling me that she "loves me so much." Use your gifts to lift yourself out. They serve you, you don't serve them.

get. off. of. your. ass. in whatever way that is meaningful to you.


How did you meet people in the new place?


I moved into an area and apartment complex that was conducive to meeting people.


Any tips for finding such places?

As for someone who has been living in the same city for their whole adult life, the thought of finding a place in a different country/city that would tick as many boxes as possible seems quite daunting.


I used AirBnB to spend a week at a time in different areas of the city I was targeting. I looked for places near things to do, walkable, parks, waterfront, where people congregate. After 8 weeks of bouncing around I narrowed it down and spoke to the locals I'd met along the way on which spots in the area I'd chosen were solid. I chose a small, two story complex with a pool in the center, near a popular stretch of bars, adjacent to great waterfront and healthy activities. My playbook won't work for everyone, especially folks who might not be outgoing.


What city?


Your problem is that you're putting yourself above "short guys looking for girlfriends, unattractive/aging women looking for husbands".

You're one of them.

Of course, nothing would stop you from making friends with the cool people, but you have to do something cool to meet them.

Also don't get caught in the mentality that drinking together is some sort of pinnacle of human fun. I would rather read a book or bicycle.


I understand.

Take some time to do some true introspection and consider obtaining a therapist. What are you are living is a common human experience.

1. Your outlook seems quite negative and judgmental. Start there. Acceptance is key.

2. It’s hard to be at peace with others and find enjoyment in life if you’re not at peace with yourself. Do not judge yourself and your feelings but recognize that you will need to commit to change if you truly want it.

For me personally, my happiness is rooted in gratitude. Thankfulness that I’ve been born at the time I was born and inhabiting the space of loving, imperfect people who care for me. My life is much better than what my parents, grandparents and great-grandparents experienced. I am the culmination of their sacrifice and perseverance. I am their dreams come true. This is my North Star that strengthens me when I’m down and helps me remain empathetic and open to others. Be a good friend to others; and you will find they will be friendly to you.


I'm going to suggest a radical approach here that I haven't seen mentioned elsewhere. Sounds like you have enough self awareness to notice that you are living outside of traditional social norms. You're in your 30s, aging and not settling down to start a family and pay mortgages off with the other normies. You're an outsider.

You have 2 paths:

1. try to play catchup and fit into the norms that you have neglected and let bypass you. Sounds like you've already made an attempt here and are struggling. You know what it takes: self improvement, shared hobbies, therapy, talking to strangers, personal growth etc.

2. embrace that you are an outsider and lean into a degenerative life style. Really give up on fitting into the social norms. Embrace that you are a social degenerate and have fun with it. Start hanging in anti-social circles and engaging in risky non-normal behavior. Get a motorcycle, join a biker gang. Start frequenting punk rock bars and meet other outsiders. Pick up a casual drug habit and socialize through shared usage. Blow all your engineering salary on strip clubs and sex worker experiences. Is this "normal", no. Will you have more fun ? yes.


Please do this, also start a blog about it, I’ll read it for sure.


The description of your college days implies that you are not incompetent socially. That's encouraging! Tell yourself this social drought will pass and just bare it a little longer until the Covid situation stabilizes.

In another comment you mentioned digital nomad plans. I'm planning that too. My strategy is to stay in a 20+ room co-working hotel that requires a 1 month minimum stay and then hopefully forming a bond with a few people. Then perhaps traveling with them to the next city. With a few friends it becomes much easier to make the first move with a woman you find attractive since dates are just inviting her to hang out with your pals. Just having friends makes you more attractive to women too, but I think you know this. I live in a desirable coastal city so hopefully encouraging her to move might possible if I find the right person, or heck I can move. It sounds like you live in an interesting city too but even if neither of you can move and it ends, you'll at least break your losing streak.

That's the hope anyway. The fact that you are thinking about and have some ideas is again encouraging. I think you'll be fine.

Lastly it may get psychologically easier as you get older. IME a few high quality half/full day interactions a year are enough for me to stay happy. But unfortunately it is not a strategy for forming a romantic relationship.


I and I suspect not an insignificant number here would identify with you if that's any consolation .

It always feels grass is greener on the side. All the people paying mortgages and changing diapers also think have they made wrong choices and is their current life making them happy .

Becoming happy in one's life is an internal journey it has little do with it social life /career /family/wealth we have or don't.

Religion /cults / self improvement /therapy (some types) are all businesses that that thrive on selling their flavour solution to the problem. Maybe they even work for some.

It is hard to say what works best for anyone.

I find learning new tech/writing more code I want to write rather than what someone pays me to do helps.

Sometimes even spending weekends cleaning up/refactoring even code from work makes my work week feel way better and less stressed.


Some ideas that may or may not pan out:

- Get a pet.

- Volunteer for a non-profit organization.

- Go to church.

- Visit and talk frequently with family members.

- Join an online dating service.

- Talk with or visit your neighbors as frequently as feasible.

- Every time you go out shopping, make a point of engaging in light conversation with people who work where you shop.

- Take music lessons at a music store. Make a point of engaging in light conversation with anyone you see there.

- Take night courses at a college. Any subject. Make a point of engaging in light conversation with anyone in your classes. Suggest that you study together.

What you need are random collisions with other people. More random collisions means a higher probability of meeting someone you get along well with.


Getting a pet is actually a pretty great idea. There's something awesome about having a non-judgemental companion who is always pretty excited to see you and values your attention. My cats keep us sane with our new normal of always being home, because remote work.


Get a pet. A dog is a wonderful way to meet new people.

And don’t be so quick to dismiss the older ladies. They might have daughters, sisters, or friends who are single in your age bracket.


Not to be a bummer but:

- don't get a pet thinking it's all fun and games. It' a huge responsibility and you have to take care of them constantly. Even going on holiday becomes a lot more difficult because you have to find someone to take care of it and trust that person and possibly pay them which adds on the whole holiday cost.

- go church - if you are religious maybe? What would you do there as an atheist?

- Talk to neighbours? Must be an American thing here in London people actively avoid one another. I've barely ever spoken to neighbour and that's if I get stuck in lift with them.

- engaging in casual conversation with people who work there... as someone who did this job long time ago I can tell you I couldn't care less people talking to me, you are just an obstacle to finishing my shift.

- random collisions with people rarely lead to friendships you need organised regular events where you meet the same people and eventually befriend.


dont do these things, you dont need to just start adding crap to your schedule to make up for your loneliness. just sit with it and understand it before you pull the trigger on church or volunteering. just sit with it, understand it, be silent and contemplative.

>What you need are random collisions with other people. More random collisions means a higher probability of meeting someone you get along well with.

typical programmer mindset, turning everything into abstraction, using his spacial/math abilities to obscure the nature of the modern world, which is just a detached, technocratic hell. making complex models for problems does not get you closer to the solution on it's own


WTF is wrong with short men and unattractive women, are they not humans with emotions who can make friends? In my experience these regular folks are the ones with whom you can have strong friendships that are not just skin deep.

Maybe your attitude of treating unattractive people as beneath you needs to be fixed before you can find meaningful relationships.


Imagine if I said I went to some event but unfortunately there were only x person of ethnicity. Yuck!

If the OP only wants to be friends with attractive women and tall guys, more power to him but he won't get much sympathy for me for that comment. Opportunities in life comes in many shapes and forms. That short guy or unattractive woman who they could've made friends with could've also opened up more social opportunities.


> Imagine if I said I went to some event but unfortunately there were only x person of ethnicity. Yuck!

Maybe not on HN comments but IRL I've seen people already do that all the time. Women especially really seem to take race/ethnicity into consideration.


I think a lot of the time people say things but don't actually really stick by what they're saying. Especially with women. They'll say really stupid things like that and a few days later they'll do something that contradicts that thing entirely


People are telling you that you are too judgmental. People are telling you that you need to accept your situation. People are telling you to move to a huge city.

Instead, you need to be MORE judgmental. You need to reject your situation EVEN HARDER. Definitely DO NOT move to a huge city (unless you have people there).

Your problem is that, up until now, you have been following money and interests, and expecting that the belonging issue to sort itself out.

This is a foundational mistake, it's completely backwards. You need to belong FIRST. Your interests should stem from the needs of the people that you love, your tribe. Your work/employment should stem from the needs of those people, and your role in what they are working towards. The other way around does not work.

Basically, you are alone because you were misled into prioritizing the wrong things. Turning that around will involve a lot of pain and sacrifice.

Find the people that you actually love, love being around, and love being connected to. Find them online. Find them through extended family. Find them through old friends. Go travel, and reconnect with your own people.

These people exist! There is no reason to settle for less. Stop what you are doing now, and orient your whole life around this. Once you find it, go find more people like yourself and pull them into the group. So many people like you are trapped in this same situation, and they need your help.


Since there is no DM feature, I'm going to rail on this a bit more here.

You feel alone.

- What is your relationship like with your parents and siblings?

- What is your relationship like with your aunts, uncles, and cousins?

- What is your relationship like with your old friends from college and before?

- What is your relationship like with your parent's friends?

- What change do you want to see in the world? Are you engaged with other people that want that too? I'm talking active engagement, meetings, agendas, etc.

The join a church suggestion is basically correct. Even if you don't want to engage with Christianity, something of that general shape is what you want. An organized group of similar people with similar ideas, working towards common goals, and helping each other out.

If that doesn't exist in the form that you want, you can build it.


Welcome to..real life?

Broken communities and meaningless jobs, surely add to the underlying absurdism of life, but life is fundamentally absurd and lonely, and you are coming to this realization.

Your college experience is a short dose of hedonistic pleasures. The young and attractive bunch you were drinking with are either changing diapers or the unattractive folks you are refusing to dance with.

Accept it, turn inward and get more spiritual and less judgmental. I'd also suggest joining a community but I think you need to get spiritual growth first because you will also judge those communities harshly and get isolated. Dancing community? you'll think old and desperate, cross-fit? shallow and stupid, family? changing diapers, meditation/yoga? weirdos,

Well, all those folks are trying to find a temporary break out of the absurd just like you.


"I tried to meet new people at hobbies and dance lessons, but guess what - they're all full of lonely developers and other socially awkward people - short guys looking for girlfriends, unattractive/aging women looking for husbands, etc."

Gee, I'm just shocked that you're having a difficult time making friends. Who wouldn't want to be friends with judgemental folks?

There isn't anything to mention that you don't know already. There is no quick fix. Find a hobby like sports or music etc and meet people through that, or do other sorts of meetups. But the problem here is your attitude, not the people. Don't take your frustrations out on other people, it's not cool.


> Still, I'm only in my 30s, and it feels like my life is pretty much done. Doing things by myself is boring and depressing, and getting into a group of "normal" friends, of both genders, to hang out and laugh with, seems like an impossible goal.

Wait 'til your forties, its like this except you're fatter, uglier and no one wants to hire you any more.


> Wait 'til your forties, its like this except you're fatter, uglier and no one wants to hire you any more.

If you're not a manager or retired in your 40s you might as well not work.


Honestly, I recommend psychedelics - no other “simple fix” will be as effective in helping you spin the thread of your life. I mean, get out there and try new things, but coming to this realization through your own impetus on a trip will be much more effective than comments here your brain will inevitably dismiss in a second. Just a thought!


> Honestly, I recommend psychedelics - no other “simple fix” will be as effective in helping you spin the thread of your life.

Does Amazon Prime two-day ship LSD? No? Well, this advice doesn't work for a majority of people.


Completely right, but please do it in the woods or any place where you feel you good. Not anywhere in a club or so.


Great point


> short guys looking for girlfriends, unattractive/aging women looking for husbands

These sound like buckets you created to fulfill your own subjective stereotypes.

> Doing things by myself is boring and depressing, and getting into a group of "normal" friends, of both genders, to hang out and laugh with, seems like an impossible goal.

This is a harsh thing to say, but maybe its you. You disparage people who are looking for the same thing in the previous paragraph.

> I feel that finding a non-coding job would be ultimately the best way to find new social groups

As someone who has worked many non-coding jobs, I can assure you that it is not.


this person was not very nice to OP. OP is totally normal for feeling this way and his post should elicit sympathy, not contempt.


Remember that everyone is going through something and that the grass is always greener on the other side.

I love my wife and kid and am pretty much never lonely, but haven't had the time to do much of anything in ages. Before having kids, we would go out to dinner, read a book at a coffee shop...etc. Now I just work and parent and occasionally have a few hours a week for recreation.

This isn't to belittle your experience (I hope you're able to find what you're looking for), but to let you know that we're all there with you in spirit in case you find that slightly uplifting.


Aside from other recommendations here, think about volunteering in some hands on area like a street kitchen, or outreach to homeless people. Firstly because you will gain from the physical activity and a degree of unquestioned gratitude for small acts.

Secondly because contact either with or for people at the end of their rope in stronger sense of risk due to poverty will put your own concerns into focus. Not that you aren't unhappy, but that your unhappiness has relativity to other people's problems.

Thirdly because you'll be meeting interesting people of all kinds.

Fourthly because they need the help. So even if you don't secure the benefits I propose, at least they will, despite your unhappiness.

It's wrong to diagnose online, and I'm not an MD but your comments could suggest one of the anxiety-depression spectrum of problems which are treatable, and non drug regimes like CBT are surprisingly effective. Be the best kindest person you can be and you may find this alienation and dissatisfaction eases. Seek professional help.

Btw this kind of volunteer work is hard. Dirty. Confronting and may make you feel worse. Nothing is perfect.


Great advice, in the same topic, I like the quote of @naval. Either have children or become a saint, because eventually, you have to find something you love more than you love yourself.


There's a lot to be said for quakers, atheist or not. And stoicism of a kind, maybe I mean kind-stoical-atheistical-quakerism.


Sounds not like thats all your problem because you have a coding-job. Sounds like you have a coding job like that other things are things that was ever there and lead to a coding job.

Now, you are in your 30s and feal that you want to be normal. fuck it, never happens, you are one of this socially awkward people, short, unattractive looking for a partner and friends, but because you don't want to be one of they, they are not good enough for you. ....oh, don't see that as a bad comment. I'm one of this people too.

The thing is, I have friends from this people, and I have 'normal' friends. But when it goes about having fun, your normal people are absolutely boring. HAve fun with the other ones. Have a lot of booze and talk crazy funny shit that normal people would never understand. Don't try to beo one of this normal people, they hate there life exactly like you hate yours. That's normal in the 30s. They have just other problems. No time because kids, work, pay their house, cant pay their heating....etc

And when all this not works, just quit your coding job and open a pub, thats my plan b.


Hear hear! My quality of life tends to be inversely correlated with how hard I'm trying to put on the act of being a normal person.


I hate to be that guy but you might be viewing those previous college days with rose tinted glasses. However, I do see where you're coming from. For some such as myself, those days were spent working menial jobs for minimum wage to afford abhortently expensive international student tuition. While that sounds bleak, and yes working 30 hours while studying full time was, those coworker relationships ( besides the ex haha) at those part time jobs turned out to be very fulfilling. After managing to find a full time dev job I found things a lot more dull especially since most of my post work time is spent trying to reach find a better full time job as you have already. My suggestion would be to find a part time retail job, the shared struggle with other employees will be hugely beneficial to making connections. If you have questions feel free to shoot me an email.


Walk over there and introduce yourself.

Bring some beers -- don't over think it. If you need a joke to break the ice here ya go:

`why do mermaids wear seashells on their breasts?

it's because the A and B "shells" are too small!"

Get over there!! Don't let Sour Grapes define you! https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Fox_and_the_Grapes


It only takes one Very On Twitter Person to make a thread of the encounter, and OP becomes a laughingstock: Seashell Steve.


Best of luck to OP, and there are some solid suggestions in this thread!

Just wanted to add that the wholesale adoption and normalization of WFH and remote culture in tech is worrying and will only make this type of issue worse and more common. Personally, I had consistently been able to make good friendships at work across several positions at different companies/cities/countries. That's until WFH and remote work hit, where now I rarely see coworkers in person (if at all), and often people are not in the same city. We feel more like automatons these days.

Tech work seems no longer a reliable vector for creating meaningful friendships or a social life outside of work. Like OP, many of us will have to learn to meet people outside of work.


Going office doesn't guarantee you will meet friend worthy people, if there aren't any. Where I work it's mostly older people in their 40's and 50s as someone in my late 20s there's 0 chance I'll make or want to make friends with them. We have nothing in common.


Take my post with a grain of salt. It is hard to give any real advice without knowing the full picture. You do know your situation though.

I don't remember the exact quote, but Pratchett suggested ( if you are willing to listen to strangers on the net ), and I happen to agree, that focusing on looks is a fools errand. Looks fade. Kisses get less enticing. Cooking skills only get better.

I remember my 20s and 30s through a haze of various mistakes. Eventually, I decided enough is enough and opted for 'boring' and 'normal', because, as it turns out, I am pretty boring. Is it possible that you simply did not reach your limit when it comes to hedonistic endeavors?


I don't disagree with you on most of your points, expect one. Cooking skills don't always improve sadly.

My cooking skills have definitely degraded from my 20s to my 30s.

The financial cost of ordering out is no longer significant enough to worry about cooking more, and by the 30s I have become wiser and made peace with the fact I am terrible cook and won't even try and without practice any skill degrades.


We get takeout a good amount ourselves but I do try to cook at least twice a week (sometimes more, also not including making salads or breakfast).

When I was single I would just cook some meat on a stovetop with some sautéed vegetables, cook frozen pizzas, or make basic sandwiches or burritos, but my wife (who I started dating in my mid 30s, btw) insists on cooked food when we don't do takeout, so over time we've built up some go-to recipes that aren't hard to make (although a bit time-consuming sometimes because of chopping veggies and slicing/browning chicken), maybe you'll find them useful.

For equipment, consider getting an instant pot for sure, and then maybe eventually a slow cooker, a deep square pan for the stove (that can hold a 3-4 servings of a meal), a nice sturdy spatula (or 3) like the Joseph Joseph Uni-Tool 5-in-1, and a vegetable chopper (to make dicing onions, green peppers, and celery super fast).

Chicken fajitas are pretty easy. Slice some onions and yellow peppers length-wise, cut chicken breasts into strips, mix together a few spices (can make a big batch of the spice mix ahead of time and store in another spice bottle to make it quicker next time).

Put the chicken and veggies in a casserole dish or sheet pan, drizzle oil and the spread out the spices, then bake it at 400 degrees for about 35 minutes, serve with tortillas, shredded cheese, salsa, and anything else you would put on them.

https://www.budgetbytes.com/oven-fajitas/

Chili is another one that you can just toss several ingredients into a slow cooker in the morning, and by evening it'll be ready for dinner and last a few days. Basically dump some cans of beans (rinse first), diced tomatoes, tomato sauce, and beef broth, then a diced onion, meat, chili powder and other spices, then maybe experiment a bit.

https://natashaskitchen.com/slow-cooker-chili-recipe/

A few other recipes we do fairly often that are hard to get wrong even if your measurements aren't exact:

https://emilybites.com/2015/10/spicy-taco-gnocchi-skillet.ht...

https://www.skinnytaste.com/lasagna-soup/

https://www.graceandgoodeats.com/skillet-enchilada-rice/

https://www.thisisnotdietfood.com/instant-pot-cheesy-buffalo...

https://www.eatingonadime.com/instant-pot-chicken-and-dumpli...

https://cafedelites.com/cajun-butter-steak-bites/ (we mix them in with some cooked egg noodles)

https://lexiscleankitchen.com/crock-pot-stuffed-pepper-soup/

Good luck! I was in a similar position a few years ago but now I'm glad I found some recipes we can cook that offer something different from what's easily accessible from nearby restaurants sometimes, to add a bit more variety.


Thanks for all the links! Will definitely try some of them !


Take all that money, quit, go to Europe, buy a camper, learn how to surf, settle down with a lovely french girl who also likes surfing.


If OP can't meet women, what makes you think he'll have any luck finding a QT French surfer chick?


Just needs to get a van, and go surfing. His cellular machinery and his newly formed 'joie de vivre' will cause the frenchies, and the dutchies, and the swedes, and the english girls to all want to climb into his van and join him on the quest.


First, get through the coronavirus epidemic. We're barely past the peak of omicron. It's starting to look like that will be over in the US in March.[1] Then more stuff will resume full operation. Clubs, live theater, gyms, martial arts, universities.

Personally, I've had horses for most of my adult life, and I've met many people that way. I know more horse people than technical people.

[1] https://ig.ft.com/coronavirus-chart


> Then more stuff will resume full operation. Clubs, live theater, gyms, martial arts, universities.

Nope. Many people remain unvaccinated, and the next variant will keep the status quo. Rinse and repeat into the summer, fall, winter.


> In case someone has any advice beyond finding a hobby, going to therapy, approaching random strangers, it would be greatly appreciated. I don't have any skills other than coding...

I have lots of things I'd like to say and yet the one that jumps out to me the most:

If you don't think you have any skills other than coding, what's one skill other than coding that you'd like to learn?

I ask because I've found that sometimes it has been the easiest for me to meet people in learning environments, maybe for similar dynamics to college. A place where I feel uncertain yet curious to learn more, and often encounter others who are feeling similarly or have learned and are somewhat eager to teach people who want to learn.

This may be similar to "get a hobby" advice, yet I think it differs enough in that it's more about finding a specific skill you are interested in learning. The challenge with some hobbies is that many people who are there may already be very skilled in it and may not want to deal with people who are beginners. That's what I like about learning environments, many often appreciate and welcome learners.

And, I'd guess that an environment with an assumption of curiosity could lead to interpersonal curiosity as well.

I used to teach salsa lessons and I found that a lot of people came to salsa because they wanted to meet others—not necessarily because they wanted to learn salsa—and it would show. As a teacher, I'm not so interested in teaching someone who wants doesn't really want to learn, just wants to use the class to meet others. Conversely, if someone really wants to learn, I'm excited to teach them, and they seem to have more in common with the others who really want to learn.

Not sure if this will help you, I'd love to chat with you more about it here or at the email in my bio, because in helping you figure this out, maybe it'll help me and/or help me help others. If not, that's OK, too. I think you reaching out and asking for help is a huge step, having the courage to open up and show us a little more of what you're struggling with—I believe so much loneliness comes from closing ourselves off from others. So I'm grateful that you asked for this...thank you!


> Still, I'm only in my 30s, and it feels like my life is pretty much done.

The problem may be your mental model of what “life” is. Imagine you were born, like much of the world, in a village in a third world country. Would your conception of life and what it means be conducive to your personal happiness?


I don’t know if this answer will appeal to you or not but…consider visiting a local church, especially one that has an adult Sunday school class. There’s usually a lot of nice people, active singles classes with activities, opportunities to give back and volunteer, meet other people and learn.

I know people respond with various degrees of emotion to a suggestion like that, but in my experience it’s usually the place where you discover why it feels like there’s an empty hole in your life and what it takes to fill it.

- A random guy on the internet


Came here to say this. The other point I would add, and this gets churchy but it is also the wisdom of the ages “to find your life you have to lose it” - the great thing about a church is you are instantly plugged into a community of service that makes it easy to lose your life for the sake of others


OP has a very specific type of woman he wants to meet, and he sure as hell won't meet them in church.


Hey man, I admire your willingness to ask for help here, that takes courage.

I hear you on the difficulty of isolation and feeling disconnected, it’s tough. You’re definitely not alone there, I know lots of guys in the same boat.

I’ve been where you are. I’m also an engineer in my 30s. I’ve been frustrated, apathetic, and lonely too. But most days I don’t feel like that anymore. I turned it around for myself, I know you can too. You can definitely get reenergized and get back to the fun and connected life you had in college. It’ll take some work, but from your post my impression is that you’re pretty good at learning new skills.

A lot of people have made great suggestions on how to meet people. Save those for a month from now. The key thing in my experience is getting your energy up. If you’re low energy when you meet someone new, neither of you is going to have much fun and it won’t lead anywhere.

Here’s how to get your energy up:

1. Exercise every day - if you’ve forgotten where to start, walk/run a mile and do 25 pushups. Adjust based on your current fitness level. Keep it simple. 2. Drink 64oz of water every day. No, really, this is important. 3. Get outside first thing in the morning for 10 minutes to get natural light - this can be when you get your exercise or it can just be to sit and drink a cup of coffee.

That’s it. Start with those three. You got this - friends, fun, connection and a fulfilling life are closer than you think.


“I tried to meet new people at hobbies and dance lessons, but guess what - they're all full of lonely developers and other socially awkward people - short guys looking for girlfriends, unattractive/aging women looking for husbands, etc.“

I wonder why you have trouble making friends.


Either have kids to prevent having time to think, or just accept that life is meaningless.

Remember that happiness is relative to your last phase, there is no such thing as "peak".


Having children is the worst thing that could happen to OP. He has too many issues that no child should ensure.


very few (other) comments suggest getting married, having kids or being religious. Seems like OP didn't even consider it.


I've made more friends in my 30s than I have in any decade prior, surprisingly.

How? Through Yoga.

Making friends was not my goal whatsoever. Just started practising daily a few years ago because it spoke to me.

Found a good studio (one that teaches real yoga and not just aerobics) and started helping out there for free (in exchange for unlimited classes). I met a lot of the teachers and managers that way.

After about a year or so you start to recognize a lot of faces... and it turns out that a lot of people who regularly go to yoga classes (where they constantly talk about being kind to yourself, others, and the planet) are incredible people.

I have met some real assholes too, don't get me wrong. You just disregard them and carry on.

I am sure this is possible with anything that's open to the public and encourages daily participation, like religion or fitness centers, etc.

However, I spent years attending a fitness gym prior to this and never met a single decent human being I would want to spend time with. Most of the "friends" I used to go to the gym with I don't even talk to anymore.

Yoga classes around me have been canceled/in lockdown for the past few months, but I still talk to my yoga buddies and go for walks with them almost every single day.

It's great! I encourage you to give it a shot!


The easy fix (IMO) is to go to Ukraine (easiest for US citizens), work from this location for a bit, and start attending parties/events/etc, and start talking to strangers on the streets. You'll be surprised how many male/female friends you can make in one week, and how much is going on. People are extremely friendly to English-speaking folks. I'd recommend Kiev, but I imagine Lviv is the greatest place as well.


OP will also make a ton of friends, get ripped, and have a purpose by enlisting in the defense force and fighting off the Russians.


> I tried to meet new people at hobbies and dance lessons, but guess what - they're all full of lonely developers and other socially awkward people - short guys looking for girlfriends, unattractive/aging women looking for husbands, etc.

So what? Lonely developers can't be good friends? Short guys looking for girlfriends can't be good friends?

Sounds like they would solve your loneliness problem but you are too judgemental to accept them


You sound kinda judgy, throwing words like "normal" around and giving the shaft to nerdy types. Maybe you're having a hard time finding friends because you're so fucking anti.

People are not the labels you assign to them. You can have common interests and form friendships based on that while being from entirely different walks of life.

If you only want to be around someone else who is exactly like you, what the fuck is the point?


I have a female friend who has convinced her and her network of girlfriends (two dozen or so) to never date lonely developers. Her reasoning: sure, they're smart, they might have money, but they're too socially awkward and emotionally immature to see any possible long-term relationship.


You are perhaps correct in your diagnosis. The way you present it, however, is also pretty judgmental. (Which is ironic, given that you accused the OP of being judgmental...)

Your post also comes close to being a personal attack, which is against the site guidelines.


Always have an exit plan, what I mean by this, is make sure you have the means to walk away from bad situations.

I see this alot where people get stuck in a rut and then it becomes unpleasant for everyone, it could be people stuck in a marriage/relationship who stay together for any number of reasons include for the sake of the kids, in a job you dont want to do anymore, or in a location you dont want to be anymore.

Maybe go travelling, if you can work from home, whats stopping you from travelling and working at the same time provided the net access is good enough where ever you go? You only need 56K for VoIP, 2/3times that for AV comms, and mobile telecoms internet is getting better all the time.

It seems like only yesterday, I was skyping someone for an hour from a boat over the 3G network when that telecoms std appeared.

Job flexibility is key though and I'm aware many people dont have that, but if you do have that flexibility or you can create that flexibility like setting up your own business then go for it, the technology is only going to get better and cheaper making this more of a reality for people in more and more places around the world.


At several points in my life I've been so discontent that I felt I had no choice but to try something that felt (at least to me at the time) drastic and risky. This has included:

- pursuing romantic interests that I knew could get complicated

- reaching out for emotional support in ways that made me feel embarrassed and vulnerable

- confessing suicidal thoughts to my doctor

- quitting my job and taking >1 year off work

- moving across the country with no job lined up and no long-term plan

I've never regretted any such decision; I think it's always had a major positive impact on my life. Because when I'm trapped in my routine the world can start to feel very small. To shatter that illusion and remind myself how wide the possibilities in life really are, it's often necessary to behave in some way that violates inhibitions I normally have.

So... taking a break from coding could be a great idea, especially if you can build up some savings first. It doesn't have to be forever (I took ~15 months off then got another software job). You don't have to plan the rest of your life - find a direction that looks promising for the next year or two, and adjust course again as needed after that.


Honestly I can very understand the situation. To be honest I don't have a solution for you. But let me comment on some points:

- Is travel really the solution? I mean isn't it not just walking away from you problems. Yeah I know myself some really great guys who went to Thailand or Philippines and had much more success with women there. One found his wife. Anyway that might be the solution.

- Regarding the age. According to a well known formula you can date people 1/2(your age) + 7. So it is nothing that special dating someone in their 20s if you are in your 30s.

- Regarding dance: Maybe you went to the wrong places. What you describe is not always the case.

- Regarding the Job: I once did had a very very exciting job with a lot of coding involved. Everyone was working a lot here. Changing the job kind of helped (low stress, nice people). It's much more about your team then the actual tasks in my opinion. Also jobs with a lot of meetings in big companies might be the hell for some of us, but might be a blessing for others since you often have to communicate much more.

If you found a solution. Please let me know ; )


I don’t know why many people here seem to assume that finding a significant other will solve your happiness/loneliness problems.

I met a girl some years ago we are now married and even though the first year was great it has all started going downhill from there. I am now at a point where I hate my life, and as OP even though I’m making more money than I ever dreamed I am still miserable and still remember my broke college years as the best of my life.

Now I’m thinking about how to get a divorce without hurting my partner that much. It’s awful and I feel terrible for her. But I think it’s for the better as I definitely won’t stand 40+ years like this, I’m also in my thirties. Marriage is definitely a bad deal for men (and great for women). I can’t understand/believe how many men are able to marry twice. For me it’s enough to make a huge mistake once to learn from it and never do it again.

I guess in the end I’d say be careful what you wish for I’d trade places with you right away.


You have money and no commitments. You can work remote. These are insane assets to have. Few have any of these. Virtually no one your age has all of them. Take these as your basis to do something you are uniquely advantaged to do, that interests you. Others suggested traveling, that's a great idea. Also, don't be afraid to spend your money. What are you saving it for? A lonely retirement? You won't be young and able bodied forever.

I might suggest a niche outdoor hobby. Dangerous hobbies in particular, like hang gliding or something. I've found a decent friend group tied by a strong shared interest this way. We plan trips to go do this hobby. Because it is dangerous there is a level of mutual trust and respect. As someone without a significant other or children you are well positioned to tak up such a hobby that most others could not afford or tolerate the risk for. There is adventure if you go look for it.


Also just consider traveling. Take a year or two off or work lightly remote. You’ll meet amazing people. Try and meet locals in each area and not just other backpackers.


Politics.

It may sound a bit of place in a forum like HN, but I have a point to make here. What you feel is a fairly common phenomenon and I know a ton of people who aren't happy at this setting. I would like to suggest joining a political grouping and study the in-group dynamics.

From the background you have stated, it is highly unlikely that you have joined a political movement or seen its inner workings at any point in time. You don't have to be a politician, but you can join the team of one. You can make yourself a lot useful. You wouldn't realise the huge value a website or a robust analytics infrastructure for a local/provincial level politician. Or your could collaborate in strategy, outreach, electioneering etc.

The best thing about a political movement is that it derives people from various background, age groups, ethnicities (I know that this is not true for many political groupings, but you could choose based on your taste) and experiences. They are generally very much driven and at least care for a cause. Once you bond, you'll see that the in-group dynamics and response to questions like general ethics, economics etc shifts from the advertised positions. This shift in dynamics is what makes you politically aware and literate. It is a great liberating experience. In movements that are around for long, you'll see yourself interacting with a lot of people as if you have known them for years - sometimes like family members. This is a great way to connect with people from different classes, backgrounds and develop the kind of empathy that will help us appreciate ourselves better.

I realise that the socio-political situation in different nations are different. But if you can do this, this will definitely light up the mood. It is also a great contribution to society - but you don't have to look at it that way. Political activity is a great addition to our lives, as many people across the generations have found out. Do give it a try.


> short guys looking for girlfriends, unattractive/aging women looking for husbands, etc.

Heed well the wisdom of one Benjamin Franklin:

https://founders.archives.gov/documents/Franklin/01-03-02-00...

in the dark all Cats are grey


Mate, switch countries. I assume you're in the US - But honestly doesn't matter.

Move to non-western countries where friendship and relationship are valued more than wealth.

I did that whenever I had a burnout. And it wasn't easy for a Russian kid.

But moving will expose you to struggle, which life is all about. Embrace it stay open and you will find friends.


I left coding. "Retired" at 29. goofed off until covid hit (age 33). Was very apathetic, developed some nasty self destructive habits.. covid kinda woke up me up. Moved to a rural area. Bought a 20 acre farm. Got a entry level job as a carpenter. Within a year i had hired the master carpenter i was working with (after our boss was in a motorcycle accident and closed his business). Just got our first house (custom home, 3600sf) to build two weeks ago. Im making $500-600 a day now.

im happy, way more happy. still a bit hard to make friends (slow process). currently trying to find a (young, traditional) wife. my health improved greatly (strong as an ox now, where before i was spindly and underdeveloped), and im not depressed or apathetic at all. i leap out of bed! eager to go to work. and the sense of accomplishment at the end of the day is unparalleled.


What does traditional mean?


functional


Making friends is getting tricky and here's why I think. Where most people good friends are from? school, college, work, and the like. What's common to these? You get to spend a lot of time together with the same people which creates bonding. That's the key I think. Later in life it's just much harder to spend a lot of time together, and now with remote work it's worse. You kind of need to work hard and once you find people you like, keep trying to meet them and doing stuff together. In the beginning it'd be meeting for coffee or playing tennis together. Then if things go well it can become something that creates more bonding, like traveling together for the weekend. Keep in mind that it takes two to tango. Sometimes you'll try hard and initiate but the other side won't make the effort. Move on.


> lonely developers and other socially awkward people - short guys looking for girlfriends, unattractive/aging women looking for husbands, etc. All the "normal" people I knew...

I never knew short guys and unattractive/aging women are not normal people. Is life a hollywood movie?


Get a cat. Its cuteness helps take your mind off things, and it's easier to keep a cat secret if your landlord doesn't welcome pets.


A dog is probably better for socialization.


Having a cat, or at least having a cat as your Twitter avatar, will also help your Elon Musk / Tesla cred online.


Think about your situation as if it was a minor foot injury. First thing is to alleviate the pain so you can think clearly without rushing.

Have a great meal, eat an ice cream, go for a run in the park, get a massage, pedicure, have a cold shower, do all above and keep doing it regularly.

With that under control, increase your exposure to stuff and people. Attend meetups. Sign up for 10 different friend/dating site and put up profiles. Do volunteering work. Take some random day classes. The point is not to pick the right stuff, but to come in contact with more people. Maybe one of them out of 100 is someone you take liking to and that opens you up to their circle of friends.

It’s all a game of numbers.

Best of luck.


Make friendships with groups. I lucked into it, since I am not great at doing it myself. But I've seen people do it (other friends of mine in the group).

Every 3 months we rent a house and chill with each other in the weekend, give each other workshops, talk about life, drink amazing wines and cook our best dishes.

Doing this is different than being friends individually with them, which I also am. To me, it feels I am much more supported.

I share your sentiment with what type of people you want to meet. In my case, I've been lucky to have studied a business program (that I dropped out of) and meet my friends there, that still are my friends to this day. From there the friendship group grew. It means that I am the geekiest of the 5, and they tolerate that since I focus on being curious, adventurous, playful, creative, a little crazy and fanciful with them. I position myself a bit as a curious bon vivant that happens to have a geeky side. It's not that I don't have those traits, but I do emphasize them more than I otherwise would. And honestly, I like it. Pulling out the adventurous side in me is exactly what gives life a little fun, you know? I mean, from a rational point of view I find it utter nonsense because all I care about is truth and advancing it. Science is wonderful, it is an amazing tool to know that something is true, false or has some probability value to be true or false. But from an emotional point of view, adventure baby!

So if you have friends that are relatively tight with each other and you are as well. Make a conscious effort to become a group. Get an AirBnB, get an activity list and do a weekend getaway together.

What also helps me is my girlfriend. Her view on the world brightens my life, even when I feel utter shit because my career is going nowhere (as a programmer), or even when I feel lonely. She takes a lot of the loneliness away to be honest.

With that said, I feel a similar sentiment to some extent to what you say. In that sense, I am not the perfect rolemodel, not by a long shot. But the two things I wrote above (consciously formed friendship groups + consciously formed friendship culture, my girlfriend), they help me feel that life is worthwhile.


Sounds to me like you may be depressed. If you are depressed, I recommend against traveling without getting that looked at first. When you are depressed, no matter where you go, there you are. Travel won't help.

There's no shame in this, I had undiagnosed anxiety/depression for 20+ years. I had no idea what it was, or why I felt that way until it was treated and it went away completely.

Seek professional help. CBT (talk therapy) is good. Drugs + CBT are even better. If you find an SSRI that works + some CBT, it's life changing stuff right there.

Without this, you are fighting with one hand tied behind your back. Fix this first.


does CBT really help with anxiety? i have huge problems with anxiety. mainly when i have to get in a airplane.


Yes. CBT + Lexapro helped me.


Burn out. Or maybe some kind of clinical depression.

1) covid's almost over, and that'll help

2) Burning Man? I'm semi-serious here.

3) After 10 years away from writing code, I took a full stack contract to do something esoteric and difficult, without a tight deadline. It took me nearly three months to recover 100% of my coding capability, and after the contract ended, nearly three months to recover my social skills.

It's a very very hard job. To be better than the technical problem is much, much harder than being better than (say) competing bankers or lawyers. The opponents are not human when you write code. They're harder to defeat.


I don't think Covid is almost over, but I can confirm burning man has a way of giving people what they need if they come with an open mind. No drugs required.


What happened to all those friends you used to have? Look them up, if any are nearby hit them up and see if they want to catch up.

Regarding going the hobby path. Dude, sports. Yes things like dance are going to have an abundance of weirdo singles trying to mix with the opposite sex in a planned environment. Join a pub league rugby team or something. I guarantee there would be people at that party above you who met through sports.

Also, you are still allowed to have housemates as a professional in his 30s. I'd be looking at that well before something as drastic as a career change.


Read Starting Strength and start lifting with that program.

Cut out all the junk you eat, start eating heathy. Stop drinking or smoking if you do that.

Make sure you get at least 8 hours of sleep.

Read the Almanac of Naval Ravikant, specifically the parts about wealth and happiness.

At least once a week, take a walk outdoors.

Avoid therapy until you have taken the above simple steps to try to remedy your situation, which isn’t that you are lacking friends but that you have envy and a feeling that you are lacking something fundamental in your own life.

Friends don’t create happiness, happiness can create friends though.


> Friends don’t create happiness, happiness can create friends though.

[Citation needed]

Humans are social creatures. I'm pretty sure being socially isolated for an extended period of time has a significant negative effect on mood. Of course its not the only factor involved.

Hell, isolation is even used as a torture method to "break" people so that they spill their secrets.


> dance lessons

It's true that many sign up for those lessons looking to meet people, and have no particular interest in dancing. The trick, though, is to persist until you get good at it. Your attractiveness to the other dancers will go up as you get better, and so will opportunities.

Besides, even if it doesn't work out for you, the skills you'll learn in posture, elegance, etc., will pay off for you in other activities. A woman likes a man who knows how to make her look good.


Hey OP imagine the people you would like to be friends with. Why would they want to be friends with a lonely nerd who judges other people with no selfawareness?

Become the person who can add value to the people you want to be friends with. Without specifics it’s hard to give actionable advice on this.

At general social meetups you’re going to find similarly lonely and lost people with nothing in common. They also very likely have a negative mindset. So skip those and go directly to the events of people you want to be friends with.


Others have said it already - it’s harder in your thirties, your existing friends have children or move for work, everyone’s busy.

A couple of things I’d add - there are things like night classes in trades that can super fun as a skill to learn and teamwork helps you meet people well out of your regular circle. I recently did metalwork as a short course and it was great on both fronts. Make it something you’re curious about learning so you’re engaged.

Meet your neighbours. In my neighbourhood it’s easiest if you have a dog to walk, but I met mine by painting my front fence over a sunny weekend and just saying hello to the passers-by. Now we have a group chat and have drinks on public holidays and generally look out for each other. Knowing the people who live around you is really beneficial on lots of fronts.

Find a Discord server of a podcaster / streamer / YouTuber that you like, one that has local meetups. Existing communities like that are usually pretty welcoming and easy to make conversation in.

Not my thing, but I’ve heard that martial arts clubs can be good places to find community, similar to the CrossFit suggestion, but they’re organised around teaching and keeping people on a learning pathway. I do know people who’ve met through a taiko (drumming) dojo.. it takes all types. Find a thing that you want to keep coming back to. Best of luck!


Hey bub, I think part of the challenge here is you have some hangups and prejudices about “normal” that are not serving you. Your narrative dismisses categories of human beings, as beneath you or not worth considering as people to connect with in a meaningful way. You also dismiss therapy but getting an outside point of view could help you examine some of these assumptions about who you are and who others are. It sounds like those are barriers to the connection you seek.


> Your narrative dismisses categories of human beings, as beneath you or not worth considering as people to connect with in a meaningful way.

There is value in this. If OP has had nothing but negative experiences with said people, it's good he knows to avoid them.


I’m in the exact same situation. I’ve been working with therapists (it took a couple to find the right one), and it’s been great!

I now consider it a super-power, and a luxury—to have someone totally external to my normal life, that I talk to regularly, who understand me, and who is paid to help me. It’s the only relation in my life where the dialog is 100% about me, and my well being, where I don’t have to have any considerations for anything, or anyone else, else at that time.

Highly recommend it!


I never bothered with the "normal" friends, they all seem like they bond over common interests like everyone else, and... I'm not actually that interested in clubbing and restaurants(The big things where I was).

Before the pandemic I was super into renfairs and live action roleplay and met a lot of my best friends through that.

I also have a few friends I know from various places I've worked, but... not many in traditional software development.

I really think that software development got "too easy" for them, and now all the fun logic challenges are in super abstract stuff and constant fussing, and that somehow leads devs down a hole of isolation.

Random Code blogs basically tell you to constantly rewrite and refactor and perfect and to always be trying new code katas.

The whole culture revolves around tinkering with random small toy projects. Which is extremely isolating because.... nobody cares all that much. Anyone who would care has their own random toy projects.

It's hard to make friends when you are encouraged to spend your free time on things that, almost by design, nobody else will care about.

Programmers seem to hate software. It's always bloat this, insecurity that, all day. That's also isolating, when the whole industry feels so negative about their own work.

Some of it is legitimately crap, but I feel like even some of the people doing amazing world changing stuff probably enjoy playing with Vim plugins more than their job.

Nobody wants to be social when they feel like shit, or be around other people who visibly are depressed.

Not that that's how I think it should be, of course, but it seems to be true.

It seems like there is a cloud of darkness over software culture, and the whole "nerd scene" in general gets sucked into it.

Something is also wrong with video games too but I'm not sure what. They are no longer ultra exciting. Nobody camps out in line for a Wii. LAN parties are mostly gone.

Something happened to the tech industry and everything "Nerd related".

Maybe it's just because I've only ever worked tech and it's like this everywhere... but software seems uniquely isolating.


I know a number of people outside of software engineering/tech that are going through this. Since COVID, many people have learned (the hard way) that community is important.

Try meetups (even meetup.com). It only takes one person you meet to stick and become a friend, and that's 1000x better than where you started. Keep doing it, go to random meetups and things where there will be other people open to making friends. You don't need to actually be interested in whatever the activity is (though many meetups are at bars), it's just an excuse to meet people, just like college was.

Try standup comedy clubs/shows (the small ones). These people are usually friendly, and people usually stick around to chat afterwards. You can meet people easily this way.

Eventually you or someone you meet will ask to do another activity together (maybe food, maybe golfing, who knows). You could even make it a regular thing over time. This kind of thing builds the sense of community you're looking for.

Wanna feel good tomorrow? Go to a few stores (or similar) and make small talk with some cashiers. Try your best to engage and be nice. You may not meet a friend this way, but you'll connect with others in your community around you, which will certainly help.


All I can is that I found my tribe (a Burning Man theme camp/artist collective/event crew) by repeatedly showing up at parties and events in my local music underground scene. Eventually we were all comfortable enough that I was welcomed into the friend group with open arms and they asked me if I wanted to camp with them at a local festival. Fast forward several years and we're all super tight and have been through some serious shit together -- deaths, police scares, drug scares, you name it.

After enough of rolling with this crew I am regularly recognized when I go out to other events by people I met and partied with once or twice, and then they introduce me to their friends, and suddenly I have even more people to talk to and befriend. It becomes a virtuous cycle.

I consider myself an introvert and prefer staying in most nights. But most people think of me as a hard-partying Hollywood type. I can only attribute that to simply showing up. (Though the pandemic has taught me I might actually be one of those introvert-extrovert hybrids, the "omnivert")

So if there's one thing that I know works, it is persistently showing up to things that have the kind of people you want to meet.


People can smell desperation and loneliness… I could tell you to find hobbies…but those by itself won’t help. If one walks around thinking negative thoughts and that people don’t like me… it’s self fulfilling…

Thinking positive thoughts and making compliments. Walk around the world with the belief that it’s is a wonderful place and that you have the ability to make friends. You have as much right to be liked and loved as others.


You feel your life is done while you are unhappy, you come seek help on HN because you logically understand that you have much more things to do in life.

Work part time. As a developer, you can make 7-10k usd a month working part time, without much effort, from any part of the world. This is pure luck, we live a time with free money, VCs are pouring the tech with billions and billions, grab the cash.

No western country: Move to a place with sun, parties and good food like mexico or thailand. It's much more easy to make new friends in your 30s in a foreign country because western migrants are always grouping together, in small communities easy to find and to join. Bonus point, go to a place with peaceful locals, no stressed commuters and welcoming people. Learn the local language, make new friends in the new country.

Improve yourself, now you have free time to travel deeply in yourself, understand the whole psychologic movement happening in your brain. You have time to experiment and ultimately learn how peace and hapiness is generated in your brain and body. You will also learn how to understand other people, which will lead to new friendships.


Without going into much detail about my personal life, go travel. If you travel alone you will force yourself to meet new people. I'm doing this rn and it's going great.

I'm only leaving this comment cause it's the second time I see someone complaining about this. I'm a dev, also in my 30, single and looking... If you have the opportunity to travel (working remotely) book a nice hotel and go travel.


If you are only meeting lonely programmer types at dance lessons, you should pick something more social.

Book clubs. Films clubs. Run clubs. Hell, take up fishing and go to meetups (super social sport, believe it or not).

There are many varied ways to connect with other people. If it is a romantic partner you want to meet and you are a straight man, skip fishing meet ups and replace that recommendation with Yoga or Zumba.


> short guys looking for girlfriends, unattractive/aging women looking for husbands, etc.

This is your problem, or one of them. Stop judging people and seeing them as below you. Guess what — you may not be short or aged, but you are also lonely. Probably have more in common with them.

This attitude will poison you even if you meet "normal" people, you will find reasons to talk yourself out of meeting them.


> short guys looking for girlfriends, unattractive/aging women looking for husbands

Do people like this exist? I thaught it was just a meme/stereotype.


Pfft, no, obviously everyone is tall, handsome and getting laid.

Are you kidding?


You sound like a 15 year old girl


I am a dev - but it's not a dev problem really, more a mid-life crisis problem. I went through a rough patch myself during my mid-thirties... All I can say - even if you don't want to hear it - it's a you problem. If you are not pleased with the crowed you meet at the hobbies you enjoy, you may have to find something else... But well women in their 30s-40s aren't looking as lively - same with yourself, but honestly to me it felt like man have a lot harder time to become self aware of the fact they aren't what a 25 year old is looking for either... Btw younger you could have gone up and ask if you could join for a drink... We always had neighbours at parties... Much better then cops, also how I learned I am way to fucking old for that shit. (Way out for me was finding new hobbies I enjoy - a girlfriend, giving up on weed and drinking 99%, and going freelance and being very selective with the work I do and who I do it for/with, also I enjoy hanging out with old friends and their kids every once in a while)


I was just reading this essay (also linked from HN) and maybe I am projecting because I am suddenly in love with this article, but I believe it does speak to where you are at...

"On Self-Respect" https://www.vogue.com/article/joan-didion-self-respect-essay...


Move towards a tech job that connects you with communities of artists, musicians, and/or fashion people. Those crowds party well into middle age and the vibe is very much make-friends-wherever-you-go. For example: https://www.elumenati.com/, https://cycling74.com/, https://www.recurse.com/, https://tisch.nyu.edu/itp, etc

The money you'll have from still working on the tech side will allow you to bail out easily into suburbia if you ever do develop a taste for it

Games could be a good option too - small/medium studios full of people who are really passionate about what they do, like Klei, Supergiant, Private Division, etc. Might be too nerdy of a crowd for your taste, but you might be pleasantly surprised too


Some suggestions:

* Train for a 10k run and then train for a half marathon.

* Join a local charity and contribute towards your community.

* Join the military and learn new skills while traveling the world.

* Build something with your hands such as modeling or wood working.

* Write. Writing is a skill so no matter what you are writing it will take some practice.

* Get a pet to raise and cherish it. My cats and dogs are among my closest life companions.

* Go back to school and work on a graduate degree.


Will this break 500 comments? A thousand? Good luck, mate.

Yeah, one definitely both wants to grow up and not lose the smiles in the photos of when we were young. I feel you.

What you've described sounds like a spiritual crisis, but I couldn't counsel you through that without knowing you better. I will say this, your world has changed, and that is loss, and loss has to be mourned before you move on to the new season. So give yourself some grace if you're upset with yourself for being upset—no, being upset is natural, it's grief and you can't control it into oblivion.

Chasing a different profession with the idea that that somehow going to make things better is very risky. Could work out, but a lot of girls dump the old abusive boyfriend and find a new abusive boyfriend... You want to make sure you understand why you were attracted to the problem case before you go find another problem case, yes? If you feel like you have adequately done that soul searching, then yeah, follow your gut. But the gut definitely has a bias to retreading the same mistakes again and again, you have to compensate for that bias.

The biggest thing that I will say is, you can't be living as if you'll get everything in order today and start your actual life tomorrow. If you do that you will never recover those looks from the photos from when we were young. This is it: that is your first axiom. It may be weird for a religious person to be telling you that, hah... but even we have the problem, as Hillel’s poem goes, ‘... don't say “I’ll study when I am free” / for maybe you will never be!’

Good luck recovering that brightness of youth. If you are looking for interests, might I suggest binging some podcasts or Teaching Company courses or audiobooks or so, find something that catches your interest there and build up from that initial connection?


I’ve found a lot of satisfaction in working in volunteer Service. Not the kind that we wear like a badge, but the kind where we make a huge difference, and no one notices that we did it.

Of course, there’s a lot more to my story, but that’s where it ended up, and it has made all the difference in the world.

Nothing good is ever easy, and the most interesting roads are full of twists and turns.

I sincerely wish you well.


Hey. I’m sorry to hear how finding friendships is challenging and feels impossible.

I believe it’s okay not to be “normal.” Do what is restful for you, which may not be normal at all. Then be looking out for others who like those things too.

Folks say relationships take time, but I believe it’s something which can happen gradually and then suddenly.

I don’t know what you enjoy doing outside of code. But doing things which are not code helps me rest and helps me find other folks over time who also like that rest. And the friendship grows deeper with these shared experiences.

A new job or address can help you meet new people. But think about what’s restful for you and then be looking out for people who like doing that.

I say restful because then the activity is motivating even without a friendship, but as you go do those things you tend to bump into people who also enjoy those things. And who doesn’t want to be around people who are just as motivated about something as you are? It’s a joy I wish for everyone and I believe it happens gradually and then suddenly. :)


What were you doing in your 20s? You should have been getting girls, engaged, married if you want that kind of life. It doesn’t usually happen over night.

Remember how people will see you. A 30-something guy, programmer. How fit are you? Socially competent? Are you reasonably successful? Do you have skills and hobbies outside of work? Skiing, martial arts, scuba, sailing, climbing, lifting, whatever.

A girl will look at you and likely have some expectation of where you should be at your age. Hint- it should look like you haven’t been wasting your life. Savings, career, house, decent car, well spoken, fit, etc. Remember, the more attractive/ younger, the more options she has. How do you stack up against the competition?

Do you have any female friends? If not, get some. It’ll be a real eye opener seeing the world through her eyes. A world where she gets hit on constantly and lied to to get into her pants almost as much. It will at least teach you what not to say and do.


> getting into a group of "normal" friends, of both genders, to hang out and laugh with, seems like an impossible goal.

This has no basis in reality, it's a distortion. You can make friends. Do what people do when they settle in a new city: meetup groups, pick up sports, book clubs etc. Covid is a current impediment, but it won't be later.

This sounds like loneliness. Having a partner helps.

> On the other hand, I feel that finding a non-coding job would be ultimately the best way to find new social groups, and get out of the apathy

Having had corporate & government gigs in offices, and working remote, I would re-think that assumption. What the office environment grants at the very least is water-cooler talk, which provides at least some level of socializing. Not necessarily more than that. A good social group need not depend on workmates. At any rate, you can meet new people outside of work, and offices never made me feel any less lonely in and of themselves in my worst years.


It could be just the normal outcome of so many years focusing more on coding & less in social interactions.

There’s no magic to fix this like there’s no magic that will make you a physicist by next month.

It will take time & effort. And no, no pill will fix this either & it could easily make it worse.

Slowly build those social skills if that’s what u want. Read books, watch videos, get counseling, practice, practice, practice.

Keep in mind, “ Loneliness is primarily a psychological state. A person who spends a lot of time alone, and is ok with that, is not lonely. Conversely, there are people who say they feel lonely even when they are in the company of others”.

Maybe u just need to find the right balance. Whatever u do, figure out first who u really want to become. Is very easy to take the wrong route again, & again & again…

BTW, the counselor (therapist or whatever) doesn’t have the answer either. The answer resides inside you. Use the counselor as a rubber duct. Talking about it, is like doing an extensive research.


Travel. People think traveling is escapist and not helpful. This I don't believe. Yes you'll drag all your problems with you but now you have no excuses and you'll have to fix them. But you'll have a fresh perspective on everything and a broader perspective on life. You'll understand yourself and the now bigger world better


I've had the same problems as you OP. I realized this has to do with house prices and income inequality. Tough spending money on fun when every dollar spent not towards saving is seen as wasted. When life is "handled" people think and do things that are unrelated to making more money.

During COVID I had some time to think, and I thought back to what I enjoyed as a kid and what I was good at, and I remember always wanting to go fast. So I got into simracing, loved it, did a bunch of research to find the best hub for my new hobby, and long story short I'm moving to Finland to pursue amateur racing in real life for fun and building a community around that. Their real estate market seems good and it looks like people still like to have fun and live life there. I've been to a bunch of races and its super easy to make friends. I enjoy working on things with people more than I enjoy drinking and stuff so it worked out for me.


> In case someone has any advice beyond finding a hobby...

If you want to meet new people you're going to have to bond around something whether it's a new hobby or an old one. When you're young it's easy, you bond over anything. School, shit jobs, getting high, etc.

When you get older it's tougher. My theory is that because as we get older out time gets more limited so we get more selective. So pick something non-nerdy like sports for example (crossfit, running, hiking). Or maybe work remote from one of those live-in coworking spaces (check out Outsite for example).

I feel you man, I've been there and sometimes still am. My suggestion is do any of the above or reconnect with an old friend and foster that friendship. Having a few good friends goes a long way.

Oh, and for those fun loving 20 something upstairs? You're looking at through rose colored glasses at a brief moment in time. They're probably lonely too. We were at that age.


I mean, there’s been a pandemic on. I think people are all going to be looking to get out and have a lot more fun come spring.


the pandemic is probably one of the main reasons he feels this way


Go hiking every weekend. Somewhere that takes some planning and a bit of effort to get to.

I know you said doing things yourself is boring and depressing, and this won't fix the social aspect or give you wild and crazy fun, but it's what changed things for me, when all my usual hobbies and activities didn't. The separation it imposed from my day to day recontextualized everything; it made the job I hated bearable, it gave me purpose each week to figure out where I'd go that weekend, and a task to solve in actually making that hike happen. I felt great afterwards (exercise + accomplished something personal to me), and it started to change how I interacted with the world. It wasn't a magical fix-all, but it started the ball rolling in a bunch of different ways, changing my outlook and how I presented myself to the world, in what I invested in, and it clearly had an effect on how others saw me.


Sounds like you're in a lot of pain from the meaninglessness and the loneliness. Let the pain happen. Don't get on pills, dont get too drunk or stoned, dont get too wrapped up in work, just sit with the feelings. They'll tell you what you need to know.

I would say, don't be too hard on yourself. Yeah, you're lonely, your job is monotonous and unstimulating. That's real, that's what it is, and that's ok. You're really not having fun. Just be honest with yourself and that will make the burden lighter.

Get yourself sorted. The happiest people I know listened to Stefan Molyneux for years. If I were you I would listen to him for a couple of years.

It's time to feel the pain... No way around it. All the answers are probably not going to please you. Maybe you'll have to make some sacrifices. Just listen to yourself, be honest with yourself, and get yourself sorted.


Things that helped me:

- small steps

- accept failures, don't let them stop you. My first "solo-traveller" holiday was a disaster, but the next four were great

- be open (i.e. say "yes" to things even if you don't really feel like it - being with people is IMO well worth it)

- life throws spanners in the works - but also golden opportunities

- help others. I enjoy baking and cooking, I might meet friends and bring some home-made treats along. Or offer to help them in DIY.

- be pro-active. e.g. ask if anyone fancies a walk/visit to a local attraction. Arrange a trip somewhere. Your circles may start small (e.g. with work colleagues) however make them interesting and it can grow.

- meetup.com has been helpful, however do something you'd enjoy _anyway_ - if you meet someone (friends or romantically) that's a bonus

This isn't a panacea, I'm personally struggling. However when I look at the good things I _do_ have, this is how I have them.


> I tried to meet new people at hobbies and dance lessons, but guess what - they're all full of lonely developers and other socially awkward people - short guys looking for girlfriends, unattractive/aging women looking for husbands, etc.

I’m going to assume positive intent here: what you probably mean is that most people who do this have other agendas/goals and you want to meet someone genuine who wants to have some fun.

Moving to a big city would be a good option. You’ll find regular people who are still single and like to have fun.

I would encourage checking out local arts. Live music, theater etc

Join a trendy gym craze. Idk what’s in these days but CrossFit/orange theory etc make it a point to build community around them. Gives you a chance to hang out with normies. You end up seeing the same people a few times which makes it a lot less awkward to say “hey let’s hangout sometime”.


I'd say find a spouse and raise children. It's much harder than you think, and you will have to go through many sacrifices. But people changing diapers and working to pay off their mortgages have purpose in their lives, they have something to live for. Life is often brutal and it is hard to live if you don't have a goal. Many are getting stuck in their career phases. Career is not an end goal. You only need so much money to be happy. You need to something bigger than yourself in your life to be happy, and for most of us it's being a parent. Even Musk, who arguably has all the purpose in his life a man could get has spawned six children. We all die, and you will as well. If you don't leave someone behind, what's the meaning, why bother? Your life ends with you and all your money and career are gone.


You say you don't want a hobby, but this is how you meet people and make friends. Climbing is a good one. Improv and artsy things like that attract funny, fun people. Athletic and artsy activies tend to attact the sort of people you're looking for (probably). Working out has great effects on your mental state as well, if you aren't doing it.

Also, make an effort to communicate with people and hang out. It's hard and takes a while to break through. Once you make a strong friendship with one or two people, you'll start meeting more. It's absolutely not impossible to get into a good friend group.

You could sell all your stuff and work from an RV. You could move to East Asia. You could get a more socially engaging job. Try lots of stuff until you find what you want. What are you working for? If you don't know, figure it out.


I know what you mean!

One way to meet lots of people you’d be able to relate to without abandoning your engineering career is to start a startup - your own company, where you use your developer skills to make a product.

That’s what I did, and the only time I dove back into depression was after we got acquired and I had to deal with a regular job again.

If you don’t have any ideas, there are lots of folks looking for technical cofounders - e.g. at this YC resource: https://www.ycombinator.com/cofounder-matching

Being a founder comes with its own set of challenges, but over the past few years mental health in entrepreneurship has been adopted as a serious issue by the community - you’d have a wealth of resources and plenty of people will help you without expecting anything in return.


If you're at all religious, go to church/temple. The religion is often second to the fellowship or community it can foster. Charity work could also help you find someone with similar values, and if you're feeling unfulfilled from work it might help pick you up doing something meaningful.


If you happen to be in ATX - I've started hosting "indie" meetups for techies/ makers/ hackers where we meet and chat about life. Folks who are into tech and have ideas / or want to break free from the 9-to-5 routine are the majority of the crowd. The goal is develop more "real" connections than co-workers and hopefully from there some might turn into friendships. If anyone is interested the next meetup is posted up [1], just show up I guess so far the age-group is mid-20s to mid-30s! If you're in a different area, there might be a meetup for your location...but it's not run by me so I can't guarantee what that's like.

[1] https://www.indiehackers.com/meetups


> In case someone has any advice beyond finding a hobby, going to therapy, approaching random strangers, it would be greatly appreciated

Wait wait. What's wrong with approaching random strangers? That's literally the only robust solution to this problem.

> they're all full of lonely developers and other socially awkward people - short guys looking for girlfriends, unattractive/aging women looking for husbands, etc.

You mean, socially awkward like you? You think that short guys and unattractive women aren't good enough for you, but I'm guessing that tall guys and attractive girls impute the same kind of vapid judgement to you that you do to aging women? Essentially, you're just miserable because you're starting to realize you belong to the same low value category you despise so much.


Of course, finding a hobby and approaching random strangers is the only way to find new things to do and new people.

But maybe consider some part time, low responsibility, public facing job. Don't worry about the pay, that's not the idea. Something that will put you in front of people to talk to.


It's a normal problem that we face when we get out of college. From a foreigner POV though, it seems it's a bigger problem in the US than many other places. People here move a lot, it's common to go to college and meet people in one state, and get a job in another state. Also, friendships don't go as deep as in other cultures where perhaps the initial chit-chat is not as welcoming but getting to know someone truly builds reliable, long-lasting friendships.

In my opinion, big cities like NYC can make it better or worse even. They make it extra hard to build community as everyone is minding their own business and people come and go without any attachment to anyone, but on the upside there's a lot more people, so the odds are obviously better.


Bro, sign up for your local sailing club, learn to operate a boat and advertise discreetly on your instagram you've unexpectedly got single and going on a lonely sailing trip this weekend. Find a local crossfit club. Do something that an average nerdy coach warner wouldnt do.


More points I didn't see mentioned here, that are likely low hanging fruits:

- Try coworking instead of home, or change job. Work is definitely the easiest way to socialize (besides being a parent).

- You could also retry the flatshare thing as well. Plenty of creative people do it in their 30s. It's fun. People are cleaner. Why not?

- Or, you may try and volunteer in a non-profit / charity / political party / art group. This is kind of like work, but with people who are not in it for money so more socializing. There is always some computer stuff to do in these.

- Also, you can try teach coding somewhere. You can make teacher friends...

More generally "how can I help?" is an easier icebreaker than "will you talk to me?", and literally everyone needs to know someone who can code.


Making friendships is actually easier when you are enjoying something you like to do. I recently got back into scuba diving in the last few years (used to do it a lot years ago) and I've met a number of people in the community. A lot of acquaintances, some friendships along the way, but it's great practice for learning to establish a community around yourself. You'll find that making friends is easier when you frequent a community you actually like being apart of.

In all honesty, that feeling of isolation (i think) has a lot to do with just feeling bored because you've got nothing you want to do or anyone to do that with. Expand your peripheral a bit, figure out what makes you excited, try new things, (yes take a class). If you really liked dancing - like a lot - then yea you might make friends there if you decide to take enough classes idk.

When I got back into diving I found multiple avenues for opportunities to make friends. One - the dives themself are typically always with other people, two the planned trips together, three the classes themselves, four honing your own skills and learning how to become an instructor..etc.

I've known friends who got really into rebuilding cars, jeeps, motorcycles..etc for instance that they became regulars at certain places, groups or meetups that you make friends that way. Or others who are really into d&d, cosplay, and loads of other geeky stuff. It's a preference thing of what you like to do and whether other people like to do that too. Like a child who just wants someone to play with. It's innate.

Personally I'm a bit biased towards doing hobbies that involve being outside and doing something physical. Too much time in front of a computer staring a code all day - I need to do something else sometimes. Helps to talk to other people when you're working on some other skill set - you learn from others and you get to meet cool people. However, I've also just enjoyed playing card games and setting up movie nights - just having something you like doing together with other people - whether that's a group of friends or your wife and kids (for the parents/married group)


> In case someone has any advice beyond ... going to therapy

Everyone proceeds to tell him to go to therapy, lol.


Not sure if it's any help, but I enjoyed the books "How to win friends and influence people" and currently "The Laws of Human Nature".

The main gist is that many of the things you see in people are just a reflection of yourself, mostly your insecurities/defects. Try to really get to know people without instantly assigning the label "unattractive", "looking for a husband", "boring" when you see them. People are very complex; everyone has good and bad parts. Even if you have no interest in befriending someone, just try to understand them and their point of view, it will also help you understand yourself better and what you really want.


As for hobbies and ways to meet new people, my recommendation is always the same: table tennis.


It’s really a numbers game. If you’re in the Bay Area, I would recommend moving to another region, or to move to SF or Oakland proper (not the suburbs). The Bay Area is very male heavy because tech is so male heavy and tech dominates the economy. Austin, Denver or any of the East Coast cities (+Chicago) have lots of single adults and a more balanced mix of genders. I’m not talking just about dating either; having a good friends group requires a little bit of diversity of interests and experiences.

After you leave college, you’re transitioning out from a life in which you always had people around you who you went to classes with and had some shared context to form bonds.


Well my bro, if you want teh girls, you gotta be the bumblebee visiting flowers or the flower attracting butterflies.

Money? Yeah you could flex a little. But they like other stuff more. And you got a gaping god-sized hole in your life. Women are big into spirituality. Hot ones, nice ones. Get yourself a priestess, mate.

Or you could get rich first, by starting a business, cuz it'll be hard to do that after the kids start coming.

Now, if you want religious suggestions, I can offer you a coder-friendly menu...

But most of all, stop thinking about how you can fix your depression and start thinking about how you can benefit whichever groups you identify with. That will put the light back in your eyes immediately.


Go to Church. Regularly.

It helped me! But not sure if what you want.


> in my 30s

> my life is pretty much done

Hahahaha

Consider that we have essentially figured out how to live super long (> 100) and maybe even much longer, your life is faaaaar from over.

My advice is to take a sabbatical and go travel. You’ll meet lots of people outside of your zone and have fun.


> Consider that we have essentially figured out how to live super long (> 100) and maybe even much longer, your life is faaaaar from over.

Some people might find this liberating, but I am not one of them. The idea of having to live that long is terrifying.


Why do you find it terrifying?


So, from your post you: a) don't know who any of your neighbors are. b) think you're better than those you do attempt to associate with c) don't want any advice on 1) doing things you love (i.e. hobbies) 2) seeking help from mental health professionals 3) meeting new people

no offense, but this seems like a social experiment or fodder for a medium article no one will ever read. Supposing you're genuine, you have a few options: a) get dogs and go do a dog park b) find a magic wand and wave it c) (sorry this is against site guidelines) stop being a loser - and, no, material success has nothing to do with that.


Move to NYC or a different large city. (I am assuming you perhaps live in the Bay Area). SF is intersting, but the rest of the Bay Area is a giant suburb. It is nice to live as a family (but expensive), but it is not the right place for younger single people.

In NYC you will find enough of everything. As a city it has different problems (eg. hustler culture, dating is like mortal kombat, making you feel disposable, where anything longer than 3 months is considered long term). But at least you wont be bored.

And if you don't like interacting with people, just go to coffee places, work from there and people watch. NYC has plenty to offer.


The starting point is to begin taking back your personal truth. And live in that truth regardless of what people say. Apply your talents to the people that bring you happiness and meaning. You have to stop denying to yourself what really makes you happy. Sometimes, like for me, that means a long time to wait, but at least I have hope and are working towards what I want instead of away from it.

https://semiosis.github.io/posts/describing-melee-s-painting...


> short guys looking for girlfriends, unattractive/aging women looking for husbands, etc.

Coupling some generic perceived success in life with some generic perceived beauty standard is a real bane of our society.


Try psychedelic mushrooms? Or take a trip to the Mediterranean? Or go upstairs and knock on your neighbors door and bring a bottle of tequila? Do something that seems kind of crazy. Break your pattern.


Having flat mates is not always easy but makes a huge difference in the quality of your life and makes some level of socializing a regular part of your life instead of an optional project to attempt.


Lower your standards. Don't judge people before you know them. Just get on the move. You're young and don't have kids, go somewhere new and if you don't like it go somewhere else.


The advice here seems generally pretty good, so I'll suggest a different angle. Have you considered leaning into your work? Your career as a developer is going well, why not see how far you can take it? As you point out, your peers are spending time raising families etc, that's time not spent on their careers. There's an often unstated assumption that only one's life outside of work counts when it comes to personal happiness. Does that have to be true? What if your ideal work/life balance is just work?


> In case someone has any advice beyond finding a hobby, going to therapy, approaching random strangers

did you try those things? they're common advice for a reason.

> I tried to meet new people at hobbies and dance lessons, but guess what - they're all full of lonely developers and other socially awkward people - short guys looking for girlfriends, unattractive/aging women looking for husbands, etc.

...are those people not worthy of meeting?

> Finding friends in my teens and 20s was as easy as going out literally anywhere.

what happened to those friends? what about contacting them?


This is not a software developer problem, this is a socially awkward dude problem.

You go to places for socially awkward people and are astonished to meet socially awkward people. Woah, who would have thought.

Yes, your peers are changing diapers. But here's a brilliant idea - you are a man and women love older men with resources. Go to places where these younger women are and you will solve your problem.

What will not solve your problem is yapping about it on hackernews, because as you may have guessed, young women are not known to hang out at hackernews.


I've got that house, spouse, kid stuff. It's awesome, but also an anchor that limits what you can do, where you can go, etc. You don't have that at the moment, so go be spontaneous. I don't travel any more, but you can. I don't do silly, dumb, or risky stuff any more, but you can.

You sound like a mid career dev, you should be well situated. OK 401K, pay, 'benes, etc. About wealth, they say "you can't take it with you." Spend some of it living it up now while you're well situated.


Honestly, I can relate to your situation - been there, done that. I think I am a step further now, I kind of found a fitting lifestyle for myself. The absolutely first thing that you really need to do, is finding a girlfriend.

Don't worry about being nerdy - there is someone out there waiting for you! You are an attractive man. Finding a spouse will dramatically improve your quality of life.

There are enough options to reach this goal. Online dating comes to mind, but it might take a while to find the right match, so hang in there!


I have different friends who have used different methods:

Two(recently divorced 30yo woman, 35-40 divorced man) got into swing dancing (met her now husband there and they have 2 kids) and folk dancing (met his 20 year relationship gf there). Advantage of dancing is that usually people are very sociable... my folk dancing friend ended up with a huge circle of friends who would go out as a group for restaurants and other cultural events.

Gym: as mentioned by others.

I might recommend learning either piano or guitar, it helped me at least...


You have a bad attitude and this post really shouldn't be accepted on this forum. If you hate your life, please don't spread that hatred outwards towards other people.


Become a digital nomad.

In "stable" cities and contexts, people have established social groups that can be hard to "break in" to.

It's much easier to make friends as a nomad, because everyone is in a state of constant flux. This also means that a lot of friends will come and go, but you can always make new ones.

Check out this website[1] for a list of places you could move to that have thriving nomad communities.

[1] https://nomadlist.com/


It sounds like you tried hobbies to meet people instead of having any real interest in those hobbies. People with real interest can tell if someone is faking it.

Try to do things that really interest you. Also don’t judge non-attractive people. They may make good friends and introduce you to their friends who might be attractive for you.

And even if only thing interests you is programming then try to volunteer your programming skills somewhere. Not only you might meet someone but also do social good.


Climate affects personality. People in warm climates are more sociable; Spain or Miami is better than Denmark or Minneapolis. Move somewhere warm with law & order (not SF), then do group fitness, etc. Would like to hear an update when you have one.

https://www.bbc.com/travel/article/20181016-how-the-finnish-...


This happened to me. So I actually quit my job and went travelling. I met a girl. My photography got better. It was life changing. Then I picked up remote work and stayed abroad.

Moved back home recently. Found out that I didn’t like being back. Went to European city for a year. Went to meetup when I got there; made loads of friends. It was a really fun year. Albeit very transient.

Now I’m back in Asia. Ultimately you’re looking for a life partner. So a gf. No number of friends will fill that void.


A job is not a substitute for life. Your answer is to explore your life more, not explore working more. Go take some good risks. Talk to some of those old women and short guys. Stop your routine and try something new. Change your approach. Change your mind. You may not be in your 20's anymore, but each stage of life comes with new perspectives, highs and lows. And forget normal. No one is normal since we are all both strange and familiar to someone.


> Still, I'm only in my 30s, and it feels like my life is pretty much done.

Take a meaningful break, or vacation,

and begin doing work that is closer to something you are actually passionate about.


What's stopping you from working remotely and booking a ticket somewhere else? Sounds like you live in a boring area.

I've been traveling and living abroad for the last 4 years after getting sick of the NYC grind. Although I wouldn't sell it as some miracle cure as it definitely has had its ups and downs, I wouldn't trade the experience for anything.

You don't need to conform to some traditional idea of what life is supposed to look like. Create your own path.


I went through the same thing and moved to China. It was the best thing I ever did. Wouldn't recommend going there now but the idea is to go live somewhere completely different from what you are familiar with.

You could hike the Appalachian trail. Or the Annapurna trail. Do a month at an animal shelter in the Amazon. Live on the beach in Mexico or Thailand or Bali for a few months. Study Spanish in Argentina. Whatever you do, sell everything and start over.


>Doing things by myself is boring and depressing

Only becasue you think it is. Husbands with kids would LOVE to trade places with you lol. Im single but at work all the dads complain lol

Fix yourself first.

Just look at https://old.reddit.com/r/relationship_advice

Having a relationship is exhausting.

For me online works. Just join discords and talk & game. And if you dont like someone, just ignore or block. easy


Go hang out with people younger than you, there is no shame in that, or join something where athletic/adventurous people hang out, you will meet people who don't necessarily fall into the geek group. Join some more extreme activities like camping, climbing, skiing groups where people still like to do adventurous things rather than play with the kids and play some CoD before they head off to bed to do it all again the next day.


I don't think this is specific to working as a dev. It's more about the pandemic in my opinion. If you're not busy raising a family of your own right now (in which case you'd be like your friends, too busy for a social life), then you presumably still want to meet & be around people, and the loss of the office as a place for that, is a bigger loss than it is for someone who's not leaning that way.


Please consider volunteering or using your coding skills for a nonprofit for free. This will give you responsibility, structure, purpose, and a social net.


Sex with an unattractive woman is better than no sex at all.

A difference between guys born in the 60/70s vs 90/2000s is that we were a lot less picky about the chicks we banged. Not sure what changed in the culture but I don't think the current situation is optimal for anyone.

BTW, I know that I am not speaking for everyone from these age groups but I am comparing boys I grew up with vs my boys who were born between 1990 and 2004.


> Not sure what changed

porn, instagram etc.


Not true!


Honestly, there is not much in the whole diaper changing side of the world so you’re not missing much (and those that are changing diapers likely envy your situation).

In terms of things to do (other than therapy or looking to start changing diapers) - Learn to day trade - it’s a whole other world out there with great community (virtual), and software engineers do well in that environment. Travel the world in your spare time.


There are 2 things I’d like to add which helped me. YMMV.

1. When I was in my late 20’s, I would meet my existing friends and try to hang out with their social groups. It helped me make a lot of really good friends.

2. Sports: If you are interested in a sport, try and see if there are local clubs where you can play. If you become an active member, they will call you to hang our with their group, where you can make more friends.


Most people do. They just rarely say it. Other people that you think are happier are often not, and they envy someone else, sometimes they envy you. World full of people who are envying each other, poor or rich, and neither are happy. Most of the life is boring objectively anyway, only a few moments really matter. Most of life doesn't matter, it's what you do with what you have is.


I recently stayed in a hostel in mexico and met a bunch of very cool people who were all open to meeting people (as travelers often are). I still rented a private room but the environment of shared amenities (even bathrooms) and the fact that everyone is a traveler tends to lead to good interactions. So… try traveling and staying at a shared place (not Airbnb or hotel).


Not the answer but a good idea spinner: sports. I met a ton of people doing cycling group rides, and first went for a MTB ride as a non date with my now wife. We were on distant leaves of a social tree but that was a great way to spend time one on one and just have fun. And it’s healthy and can be competitive and gets you out of the headspace of “only know software.”


I recommend finding a local church.

I didn't grow up going to church but I started going as a young adult. I met my wife and nearly all my closest friends there. I still go 30 years later.

I love my church community. It has wonderful people, weird people, intelligent people, mentally disabled people, rich people, poor people, programmers, bin men and at least a dozen people I call close friends.


If you are in Seattle, hit me up anytime. I used to feel the same way that you did but COVID really forced me to step out of my comfort zone and try different things. I have so many people to tag along with that it is getting a bit too hectic. I can introduce you to them as they are spread out all across US (with some in Europe too).


I know you said advice outside of finding a hobby, but I'd say team-based sports or other game type clubs are a great way to be part of positive social groups that aren't full of sad, lonely people. Also, with sports, you're also doing something athletic which is probably good for your body and serotonin levels.


Sorry to hear all of this.

I would recommend looking at your life the same way you look at your code (presumably you care about the quality of code you write). Try something different and if it does not work then try something else. No one will be handing you what you want on a silver platter and if they did you certainly would not appreciate it ;)

Good luck!


> On the other hand, I feel that finding a non-coding job would be ultimately the best way to find new social groups, and get out of the apathy.

If you are feeling lonely I suggest getting back together with friends from college/high school or joining hobbies/groups. That's what helped me when I was alone in the Bay area


"they're all full of lonely developers and other socially awkward people - short guys looking for girlfriends, unattractive/aging women looking for husbands, etc."

Welcome to becoming a mature adult in the real world! It's true, as people age they become gringey dorks. And you may be surprised... It happens even to people who don't work in tech. I participate in a few communities that have little or nothing to do with tech, and they're still filled with awkward characters searching for connection too.

Sure, there are people in their 30's still partying and leading the lifestyles of the young and beautiful. But, maybe those people are still doing that because they haven't grown much since their early 20's. And if you haven't found focus in life beyond "being cool" and drinking and socializing by the time you're in your mid 40's, that lifestyle starts to be a pretty cringey look of its own.

Maturing emotionally means becoming more guarded and picky. You and the people around you have lived in the world, become invested in your own ways of living, and taken damage from the ups and downs of life. It's never again going to be as easy as being 20 something in a room full of 20-somethings who all want to meet each other right now.

But, there's also the chance for connection beyond what's possible at a party with "laughing, kicking and screaming" full of people who closely match your demographic. Ask people what their lives are about, people usually like talking about themselves. You'll get them to open up and you'll learn new things. Let things take time and be willing to let friendships form on a timescale more like months or years rather than days or weeks.

Not so much to your original point, but you mentioned "quitting the career"... If you're sick of tech, start on your second career. Even if you're not super confident, pick something that seems doable and pursue it. It will be exciting and rewarding and you will re-experience the feeling of joyous surprise you once felt when learning tech. You have time for this and can afford this easily since you're making tech job money and it sounds like you have time for weekend/evening/intensive classes. And you will meet a new batch of people. I've been in a program where I've taken a number of classes with the same group, and it's been a great way to get to know some new friends.

No reason to be scared because you don't have to "quit the career". Tech will take you back if your other thing doesn't work. You can learn a new thing and switch back and forth. Or you can do both part time.


When you have a kid and are working to pay the mortgage, you basically don't have time for friends either. This leaves a very small group of potential friends who are single by choice.

I think the biggest thing is managing expectations. Nothing works the way we envisioned it as kids. It's disappointing, but that's life.


Keep the coding job. Meanwhile work on anything else on your own, invest some money, build a passive earning, buy a property and rent it. Depending on your definition of financial stability it could take a week or a couple of years. Done? Resignate. Take the passport and a backpack. Live your life.

No really, time is running out.


Longer-term, you might like yourself more, if you can get past dissing the people at hobby meetups and dance class.


What about a more social software job, such as project management, or sales? Those would necessarily involve building relationships with people, and you would be branching out in your career. People who can do the less technical jobs, while having an engineering background tend to be highly valuable.


Change scenery and surround yourself with people. That advice about finding a hobby is good because if you can find one that involves other people, it is a great way to break the ice. I struggle with everything you mention and more on a regular basis. I am sorry you are dealing with it.


I like clubs. I’m an avid mountain biker, so I joined a club with group rides twice a week. I’m signing up for master’s ski racing. I chose these because they’re as far from computers as you can get, and we have something to bond over (bikes! Skis!) that isn’t anything to do with my SWE job.


Have you tried dating apps? They suck in many ways but ultimately with a bit of time and effort, some good and bad dates but eventually you wills find a relationship. As far as making a circle of friends, I think that is actually way harder in your 30s than it is to find a partner.


Simple, get a remote coding job and book a ticket to South East Asia. Thailand is a good start.

You will very quickly meet tonnes of people and can travel and see the world. Constant stimulation.

And if you are ever lonely while doing the above then download Tinder and start meeting people in your area.


I don't really recommend digital nomadism for being less lonely or making friends. You end up just having to make new friends over and over if you keep moving (which is what being a digital nomad is) which is emotionally exhausting and feels sisyphean. I'm speaking from experience here. Unless you want to be an expat or move to a new city, which is a different thing. But won't necessarily solve your problems, and while other expats can be an extremely friendly bunch to befriend (you're both all alone in a foreign place / isolated linguistically) - it's also easy for it to be a booze-based friendship. That being said, travel is definitely worthwhile, but try some shorter trips first before deciding to move your whole life to see if you like it and find out what kinds of destinations appeal to you. Don't trust what you read online about the best spots, or location arbitrage, or what the locals are like or how hot they are. See for yourself because everyone has different tastes when it comes to travel.

But I mean if you live in a huge city in a shit neighborhood, maybe try a nicer neighborhood. Or if you like in a small town or city with nothing going on, maybe try a bigger city. Mix things up.

Learn to be the host of your own events, to connect the new acquaintances you do meet to each other, rather than sitting around waiting for a new person you just met to text you. When I was at my peak extroversion and friend-making skills while I was doing my own digital nomad thing, I would literally throw out random "you seem like a pretty cool person and I'm new here and trying to make new friends, here's my number if you'd like to go out for drinks with me and another recent acquaintance I've made named Jorb this weeekend" to random employees at cafes, whereever and hand them a napkin with my #. Cringe as hell, but when you get truly desperate while traveling you throw your pride to the floor.

Live in a walkable big city with lots of events and diverse types of people if you hate the nerd monoculture (see NYC not Palo Alto). Or if you are in a smaller place, lean even harder into making things happen yourself. If there's no first-person drone racing group in Toledo, OH but that's what you wanna do - figure out ways to advertise it - start your own. Tell every person you meet and everyone you interact with - cashiers or whoever - that you're starting a FPV drone racing group and if they are interested or know anyone who might be to check the meetup.com site you make or whatever. Pretend you're a quest giver in an MMO.

Join activities where there's opportunity to talk during or after (so not a yoga class, but yes to a kickball league where you're on the sidelines for stretches), or there's activity->followed by drinks. Just make sure you limit yourself to a drink or two and don't make getting drunk a necessary part of friendship. It's not sustainable, especially in your 30s.

Join activities (or create your own) where you'll see the same group each week.

Put forth effort. It's hard, but it's worthwhile.

Avoid friendships that only are fun when you are both drinking. Or friendships that are based on no common interest/activity OR humor. You either need to share an interest or share humor for it to work IMO, even if getting drunk together for a couple of years once a week will make the person tolerable.

Accept that a lot of activities that foster friendship just either cost money, and allocate the budget for it, because its absolutely important for mental health (if you are the type that is extremely frugal, but also feeling really depressed or lonely).

When you start to make friends, try to think about what you can do for them. Check in on how they are feeling, offer help when they are struggling with something, or offer to bring food when they are sick, or move boxes when they are moving. The older you get, the more difficult it is to forge really strong emotional bonds, but that means these sorts of things mean a lot more to people.


Felt that way in my 20s. Married a girl and bought a house and those feelings went away. But...if you don't want to do those things don't renew your lease and go travel. Do some risky stuff while your out there. You never know who you're going to meet.


It's not just you. Modern civilization inevitably leads to general anomie among the masses. Idk what will we do to solve it but I posit this is part of the great filter explaining the drake equation paradoz of not observing any intelligent life anuwhere.


The most obvious answer here is missing: The purpose of all biological life is reproduction... we learned that in school and never realized it applies to us humans too. Make it your #1 goal in life to find a great life partner, get married, then have kids.


The only cure for someone with such judgementalism is reading. Read some literature. Start now.


Move to another country like one in Asia or South or Central America or Europe. North America is rapidly becoming a vacuous wasteland of self hate and inane boredom. Girls are for sure more friendly in other countries if that's your thing.


>Still, I'm only in my 30s, and it feels like my life is pretty much done

I feel this way and I'm very happy about it. I've lived my youth and now it's my turn to ensure future generations, especially my children, have the same opportunity.


A therapist would really help, I’ve had a few that helped me through existential crises.

This site is a great way to find one: https://www.psychologytoday.com/us


Volunteer. You might prefer to find an area of volunteering that offers a favorable balance of the sexes.

Or take up some kind of sports. Kickball seems to be a thing for 20-somethings now, but there's softball, and there are running groups.


Find a coding job where everyone must come to the office. Maybe not easy these days but it’s worth it. I personally found this to be good for my mental health because I need the social interaction and discussions in person.


In my humble opinion, you're searching for meaning, which I've only found at Church: https://youtu.be/zoK8uXl3f9c


you are very lucky to be in your 30's, there are so many things you can do after work. Join a gym, volunteer, online dating is fun in my 30's I had dates almost every week got to meet a bunch of beautiful girls, also got into running and joined a running club, volunteer. also going to a bar is fun you can go to a bar and just meet a few locals in your neighborhood. Also it depends on where you live. maybe if you are working as a developer you can get a job that is fully remote and travel and work from some fun place like Thailand or Spain .


> online dating is fun in my 30's I had dates almost every week got to meet a bunch of beautiful girls

It certainly helps if you're attractive. OP seems like the typical lonely coding neck beard that hardly gets a match.


If you can work remote, go on a road trip and book airbnb rooms in homes where there are many other rooms listed. You are guaranteed to run into other digital nomads who are open to meeting new people..


If you aren't actively inviting people to things and being turned down, start doing so. If you are actively being turned down, ask why, the answer will get you closer to where you'd like to be.


a drastic change, like moving to a diff country/culture could be a good start. it might not be the end solution, but as a starting point it could help you because drastic (non-toxic) changes tend to put us on our toes, attentive to new environment, etc. specially if you're in a city-country where walking is the norm (i.e. you don't depend on a car (isolated) to get around). Move to a sunny country like spain (southern spain, works). there are non-lucrative visas you can get without much hassle. good luck


I experienced this when moving to a new country. I knew no one, didn’t know there to start. I ended up joining a running club where I met heaps new friends from all walks of society. Highly recommended.


A former coworker used to recommend getting a job in a local bar, it's definitely something that you can do alongside a developer job, and you'll meet a very different set of people. YMMV


At least you had fun in college. I tried so hard to get into the dating/hookup scene and have the experiences I was supposed to but nobody wanted me because a slightly overweight computer science student with the wrong hobbies just isn't good enough. 0 dates all of college, and I was never picky about women being "unattractive" or "aging" like you apparently get to be. It gave me such a bitterness I haven't tried again in the ~5 years it's been since graduating. I make great money but it's no consolation for such a profound rejection, more like I asked a monkey's paw for success. Even if I find someone I'll still always look back and shake my fist at what happened.


You buy a bottle of good whiskey, and next time they party, you go upstairs with it and say that you can't sleep, so you may as well join them. Most of the time, it's as simple as that


Find a non-technical hobby and go so fully into that (visibly) that you become a magnet for others just getting into the hobby.

Being there is like living midway down a river. Just stay there and “they” will come.


I highly suggest looking into Islam. Life in the West has been delegated to partying and always expecting to "have a good time" in the sense you described. There is way more to life.


If you are unhappy, this is not your peak. Perhaps you are gauging your peak based on other people's expectations. Do what seems right for you. It's okay to try something new.


Move to a different country. I think you’ll find other cultures’ may have more interesting social constructs that rejuvenate your lust for life and ability to grow your social system.


All my 20s and 30s I was desperately searching for a couple and socialization the way you describe.

If you ask for a radical solution, and you're from English-speaking country, my radical suggestion is: go teach English in country like Brazil or Russia, Ukraine, etc, but make sure you stay outside of the capitals, where expats are rare enough. I know some guys who did this, they have social life, are rather important people, and have no reason to come home to be the average Joe.

If that's not an option, like it wasn't for me, manage the probabilities. All hobby groups are places where you have a chance to get some social life/couple. But they differ. Invest less time in those with awkward people, but don't abandon completely -- sometimes friends from there will invite you to other, more interesting social groups.

Eco-, new-urbanism or political activist groups are much better than dance groups, because people go to dance exactly to find a couple, whereas any form of activism filters those out and the share of "normal" people is much higher. (Of course, their age and marital status may vary, so choose appropriately.)

Where you live also matters. A metropolis is very un-social, interactions are awkward, and you must be highly active to just stay in contact with some people. A small town has much more social cohesion, but may make you passive in dating. Something in the middle is better.

Living in suburbia is antisocial, it's better to live in walking distance from places to socialize in a walkable city.

Since you're still looking for a couple, it's better to live near a university where the share of young people is higher. Also, write down when you had dates, or was approached, and what social activities you had then -- it can give insights.

P.S. Therapy works only as painkiller. After couple of meetings therapists open up their stone-age beliefs: NLP, positive thinking, hypnosis, homeopathy.


If you’re in the Bay Area and want to grab a drink, DM me @jasbarry


Travel but don't go mainstream like a cruise. Try adventure travel or unconventional destinations. That's where you meet interesting people and some might live nearby.


Hey, I realize I could be way off base here… but other times when there are posts with a tenor similar to yours - the thought often seems to be burnout.

Is it possible that's a factor here?


Try international meetups if you're in a big city. People are often open to making friends and less socially awkward (but sometimes don't have much money...)


Have you tried online dating? You could get a lot of entertainment out of it and, with some luck, find a permanent companion to do activities with.


Can confirm. Dated a ton and loved it. Found my partner.


Find a dance studio that has partner dancing. Pick a style you like. You'll meet new people, add movement to your life and music.


First off, good on you for willing to take suggestions. That's a wonderful first step.

My approach to this has always been to start with first principles. It has unerringly kept me in a position where the general state of my life felt coherent and fulfilling.

I'm about to get specific but it's only to illustrate how this framing helped me. I am not at all trying to say you choose the same set of options I did.

For me having a balanced family life was always going to be mandatory, even though I tend toward workaholism. Having one parent stay at home and take care of the kids was high up there (didn't have to be me, but I like work and my wife doesn't ;). Marrying someone with similar values was essential. Nearly as important was work that fulfilled me and that was consonant with my moral/ethical requirements. At the bottom was making enough money that I could take care of my family.

Definitely not saying you should adopt those same values. What I'm saying is that it helped us figure out what decisions would help us in the long run. We opted not to move to Silicon Valley because we hated the work/life imbalance there. We made less money early on (pre kids) because my wife didn't work. At that time I did a lot of freelancing and studying. My wife understood that work was necessary and didn't bug be about it, though we still went out to movies and restaurants, based on a tight budget (it was fun). We didn't have the extra expenses or stress of a second working person, but my working & studying at night gave me the skills to get very successful later. We both hated debt so we happily lived without a kitchen table and ate on the floor for a few months until we could pay cash for one.

Another hack I have is to set things up so second best is still pretty good. When I was younger I wanted to be rock star but at some point in my early 20s I realized that wouldn't happen. I chose second best, programming--for which I had zero aptitude and almost no experience. Had to work as a tech writer so I could teach myself programming, but eventually got there. Another example of second best working out well: we used to live on the beach in Southern California. But when we worked out what was most important to us, it turned out the Pacific Northwest was better all in all. Would I rather live on the water in Newport Beach? Hell yes! But we live on a beautiful peaceful farm outside of Seattle where life is much more sane, there's actual privacy, and there's plenty of room for animals and band instruments. A damn good second best.

I always loved programming and feel lucky to do it. Maybe you don't like it as much? Perhaps it would be worthwhile to do a spreadsheet listing other options that you'd like, and start making moves toward the next step in your life.

Last, once you've settled on how to be a pretty good version of yourself, you'll find it sort of magnetizes other people to you. I am totally not good looking but I'm comfortable in my own skin and confident about where I'm going. It has made a massive difference in my life.

Good luck. This whole situation could wind up working out well for you.


If you’re in the Bay Area I’ll hang out with you


If you are in mid-coast Maine, I'll hang out with you.


Well, IMO, it's time for you to embark the spiritual journey now. The mushroom awaits you! Buy the ticket, take the ride.


Well, IMO, it's time for you to embark on the spiritual journey. The mushroom awaits you. Buy the ticket, take the ride.


The older I get, the younger my mind becomes.


> In case someone has any advice beyond finding a hobby, going to therapy

It looks like you don’t really want to solve the issue, rather just get busy solving it.

Because therapy is the answer, often is the only real answer, way better than any advice you can possibly imagine getting on the internet.

Even though finding a good therapist might take a lot of work itself.

Im speaking from personal experience of running away from similar issues by finding sophisticated ways of procrastination.


What about night clubs? That's the place to party, kick and scream. Doing a lot of that in my retirement age.


I'm sorry you are struggling. The book The Road Less Traveled was helpful for me. Wish you the best.


Help others !!


we are sad because we don't make enough money. money cannot buy happiness, but it definitely gives you the freedom to quit your job when you don't have any other skills than coding. It is all finance. stop worrying about now, plan for future.


My sympathies.

tldr; You (like many others) are having an existential crisis. The facts that previously underpinned your reality no longer seem true. Your challenge is to find some way to live authentically. What you've identified, a sense of belonging, is crucial part of living authentically for many people.

---

I'm 35, and though I have a growing family, I am also nostalgic for that time in my mid 20s where I had less money, but intimate friends were close at hand. Recently, I've been having a feeling that something is "over".

The best encapsulation of this feeling I've read is from the Witcher short story "The Bounds of Reason". "... a wish, as desire, a yearning. Faith that there are no limits to possibility"

The ignorance of youth is really ignorance of an unknown future stretches out ahead. As I've aged the limits of possibility made themselves apparent. That faith in limitlessness was broken, and that break caused an existential crisis.

The single piece of advice I have is to grapple directly with the nature of the human condition. There are lots of ways people deal with this: finding a purpose, finding a community (like a real one, not one based on a comercial product), finding god. Put simply, the

I've seen a lot of nice ideas: volunteering, relocating, exposing yourself to different kinds of people, finding projects, therapy. I've found those helpful. But that might not be enough.

A crisis is also an opportunity. This is a chance to reevaluate what your life means to you, and what you want to do with the time you have.

I wish you the best.


Move to a warm culture country. You will make friends and have a great social life.


>only in 30s

Teens use a 30 yo smoker as evidence that smoking doesnt kill one even in old age


Random idea but:

Leave and set up your own business/startup doing dev work similar to what you do now, ideally serving customers you are familiar with.

Hire some young people, trainee dev, secretary etc.

Better social and a career move forward. Even if you take a pay cut you are going from dev to more a ceo type thing on the cv.


Talk to a therapist, please, for your own health and the people around you.


Travel more, go to countries with prevailing happy go lucky attitude.


Buy a piece of land in the desert. Paint it green. See what happens.


Take some classes. Sounds like that worked in the past.


Go and introduce yourself to your neighbors from above


get part time minimum wage jobs at Starbucks etc. You'll meet people different than you :)


if you drink coffee or alcohol you may consider stop messing with your brain like that:)


A lot of people are diagnosing depression here. That's fine and all, but this problem is one that seems extremely common for people I know in their 30s and beyond, at least in the United States.

It seems that people hit a certain age and just retreat. First, they move to a city or suburb where they know nobody so they can have a yard, drive to a Dairy Queen, and/or earn $15,0000 more. They enjoy the new lifestyle for 5-7 years—they get a car, they work on their house, maybe they have a kid. Then they look around and ask themselves, "What's the point of all this?" The thing that makes life worth living, which is, by and large, human connection, is just not there. Often all this is precipitated by a couple settling down into a relationship, then ignoring or uncultivating prior relationships and becoming 100% of each other's social lives, or, alternately, the development of workaholic habits combined with moderate addictions to boring things like sleeping pills or TV.

The reality is that maintaining or, even more difficult, creating a social life in your 30s and beyond requires energy, organization, thick skin, and relatively strong social skills. Often people don't have even one of these, let alone all four. And, as people age, and careers peak or stall, it becomes even more obvious that the only thing that really matters in life is human connection. Having kids helps here, but only so much.

A few decades ago, there were thriving cultures of local community that it was almost difficult not to join. People would, by and large, go to church. They were part of civic organizations like the Knights of Colombus, book club, weird utopian or improvement clubs (Bellamy societies), business associations, bowling league, Rotory Club, or INSERT WORKPLACE HERE Over 40s Poker. Local politics was a thing, the bar scene was a thing, dancing was a thing. The average person would be in ~5 of these. Nights where you would stay in would be more uncommon than nights you would go out.

What happened? It's hard to say exactly, and there are lots of books on it (Bowling Alone is a good one). But cable TV and the internet, I think, are big parts of it. It was just not possible before a certain year for the average person to stay in all the time. It was just too boring. TV sucked There were, functionally, no games as we now know them. No porn as we now know it. No social media, no link aggregators, no chat rooms, no dating apps. There were drugs, but they were more social drugs (coke and booze). MJ was pretty bad and niche, people were popping massively fewer sleeping pills and opiates. If you wanted to watch a movie, you left your home. If you wanted stimulation, or your fix of dopamine, probably you left your home.

It was a more dangerous world. People would booze, and fight. There was more serious crime before the 90s, discrimination. People fucked more, and with more people. There were predators. People would also get together and drink, and talk about ideas. There were social movements that were actually kind of new. People would get together and drink, and make music. There were scenes, undergrounds. You had the Harlem Renaissance, the Berlin School. Places were a thing, you would go to another city and the scene would be a different scene and the culture a different culture. There would be a cene around a bar, or a street, or a music store.

What OP is experiencing is the default state in the US in 2022. The inertia is to stay inside, be alone or with your immediate family, and to get your fix there. We've invented technologies of approximation and recapitulation. Social Media approximates human connection. Porn approximates sex. GrubHub approximates going to a restaurant. On social media and 24/7 news, all prior social and artistic movements are recapitulated. We try out the 60s in 2020, we try out the 70s in 2022. We larp as Malcolm X or Ira Glasser or Ronald Reagan. Place is collapsed, Montreal and Berlin get the same internet as San Francisco. There are fewer murders and less STDs and fewer missing children. There are fewer artistic movements, serendipitous connections, long afternoons betting on the races. Tolkein doesn't meet Lewis, Diddian doesn't meet Dunn, Hemingway stays away from the bulls. Unless you make a big effort, you live inside your head, and your head is inside and staring at a screen.

So maybe OP is depressed, but maybe it's not just OP. Maybe this time and place has something to do with it.


Move into a share house


One word: Volunteer.


Take some holidays


quit your job, buy a one way ticket anywhere.


> As I write this post, my neighbors from above, probably college students, are having a party of their lifetime, laughing, kicking and screaming. I'm not even mad at them, just full of envy.

If you're fun (warning: it sounds like you're not fun), you can probably just party with them. We're the same age and I've had girlfriends that are still in college. It's not weird if you're not weird about it.

If you haven't had kids and aren't boring, 18+ is a valid dating range.

> Finding friends in my teens and 20s was as easy as going out literally anywhere.

It still is, you're just going to the wrong places or presenting yourself wrong.

> When I eventually went to work, I thought my life would only get better. And I made a good career, but in the process, steadily drifted off into isolation.

I think there may be some naivety here. Work is to acquire capital, to invest in assets, to generate capital, to avoid work. Work is not supposed to be fun or satisfying. Work is supposed to acquire capital.

I think in previous generations, you could ask coworkers out on dates, but that's dangerous and most SWEs are remote now anyway. It's best to keep work to just work.

> they're all full of lonely developers and other socially awkward people - short guys looking for girlfriends, unattractive/aging women looking for husbands, etc.

If that's not your scene, then don't go to those places. Find something that's cool and happening now and meet people doing things that excite you.

If the goal is young women, you can be in your 40s and find plenty of college girls interested in age gap relationships.

> All the "normal" people I knew in the past are now changing diapers and working to pay off their mortgages, which I guess is a kind of consolation.

The people I know with kids end up so defeated that they essentially martyr themselves with employment to give their children a better future. I understand that people willingly make this choice, but it's not for me. It's really good to see times changing and the idea of "normal" going away.

> Still, I'm only in my 30s, and it feels like my life is pretty much done. Doing things by myself is boring and depressing, and getting into a group of "normal" friends, of both genders, to hang out and laugh with, seems like an impossible goal.

This is your error because it's not impossible. I've seen whole communities of old people form meaningful friendships and they're all 70+.

It might be impossible for you while you're doing your career. That's ok. People will still be around when you're done working.

If you're at the peak of your dev career in your 30s, you can probably be retired by 40 with some good negotiation/investment.

> In case someone has any advice beyond finding a hobby, going to therapy, approaching random strangers, it would be greatly appreciated. I don't have any skills other than coding, so quitting the career would be a major financial hit. On the other hand, I feel that finding a non-coding job would be ultimately the best way to find new social groups, and get out of the apathy

IMO you're already in deep enough that you might as well see it through. Try to get a job with high total comp, work hard for a few more years, retire before 40. Learn enough about investing and finance that you don't screw it up.

Then simply do things you find legitimately interesting that involve other people. It's important that you actually care about the activity, so you can be happy and confident and present at your best.

You can't just "try ballroom dancing" and expect to meet a new group of cool friends. Compete with cool people at doing cool things, and then you'll have groups of cool friends.

Maybe audition for a rock band. Or start an NFT project. Or become a nature youtuber. Or dance on TikTok. Or whatever you'd do anyway, once you're not tied down by a tech job.


When I was in about the same situation (and probably at about the same age) as you are now, a bit over twenty years ago now, I went to a bar and had a beer (and probably dinner) one Friday afternoon. Probably with a paperback SF novel in my pocket, as was my wont in those days, to have something to read while I ate and drank. The bar -- which fittingly was also named Friday -- can't have been too popular, because I had a whole booth to myself. (This was before everyone became too anti-social to even answer their phones, or use them to make actual voice calls to actual people, so it was customary to share space with strangers if space was in short supply.) Well, a few years later the bar closed anyway, so Friday is no more.

But, as I sat there in my booth reading my novel and nursing my beer(s), I noticed two women -- old friends, from what I overheard of their conversation -- in the booth next to mine. A while after that, I noticed that they had also noticed me, and a further while after that, we struck up a conversation. Can't recall if the blonde one, whom I at first found the more attractive of them, threw me a line or if it was me who interjected some joke into their conversation. Perhaps they asked what I was reading, or something. Anyway, after some time talking, I came to the conclusion that the brunette was even nicer -- not just good looking, but a great sense of humour (got in some real zingers about me, but all in good fun), and with a very sensible outlook on life in general. So I did my best to keep up my end of the conversation, took an interest in them -- no faking it, I was interested! -- and hung around until the talk turned to what to do for the rest of the evening. Can't recall who suggested another place, with music and dancing. So there we went.

The place was called Pikkuparlamentti, "Little Parliament", because it was right next to the parliament building. (Hm, also closed now -- am I cursed?!? Naah, at least media claimed it was torn down because the Finnish Parliament expanded their building in that direction.) This place was really popular at the time, so we talked some more while waiting in line to get in. At the door, disaster struck: "Sorry, no jeans and no sneakers!" I told the ladies I'd see them inside a little later, and took a taxi home to change and back there quicker than I would have thought possible. Then I danced, IIRC with both of them (possibly even at the same time), but definitely mostly with the brunette... Whom I had by this time realised was definitely the more attractive of them, and wondered how I could ever have thought otherwise. (See other comments about how attraction grows from more than superficial qualities.)

If all goes well, our son will graduate from "lukio" (~"high school") this year.

So:

1) Go to bars for dinner and beer after work.

2) Don't be so immediately judgemental.

3) Remember to bring a paperback novel.

[Edit: Ttpo.]


"they're all full of lonely developers and other socially awkward people - short guys looking for girlfriends, unattractive/aging women looking for husbands, etc."

So...people like you? you sound really judgemental man.

Since you have no friends(so nothing to hold you where you are, right?), and apparently a good source of income, I'd advise you to go remote, travel, try digital nomadism, go to meetups, meet other travelers, maybe try coworking spaces? hacker houses/airbnbs with people from lots of different places?


Even supposedly "unattractive" or "aging" women can start to look more attractive as you get to know them. It's really amazing the transformation that can happen. So much of what is attractive is subjective. It's hard to see that when younger, but it's true. Besides, the attractiveness we associate with youth inevitably fades anyway.


I can attest to this. In my 30’s with kids and suddenly women with well behaved kids are more attractive to me. You can find attraction in qualities as much as looks.


Never thought this would happen to me as looks was almost the only thing that mattered (as much as I didn't want that to be the case), but it did.

After my first horribly failed marriage (and damaged kids due to wife being a complete failure), something clicked in my head and I finally find personality extremely important.

Not sure if it's an age thing or just a change after trauma, but it's been a very positive change.

Weight is still somewhat important at the extreme, but otherwise it's been a 180* shift - really fascinating.


Those aging women, how dare they get older, inconveniencing OP with their existence in the same timeline.


Eh, I wish them all best of luck, I'm sure they're great people. My point was that people seem to attend various hobbies to find romantic partners, rather than friends.


But putting it the way you did; maybe if we saw a picture of you and if you look like a hunchback smurf then you maybe can say things the way you put them. 'People who attend various hobbies tend to do that to find romantic partners' is a fine way of putting it instead.

But you are right; I find that too, which is why I just go work in bars (I mean; sit and code, not serve beer!) instead of trying to meet people at hobbies (Which, for me, are all nerd/hardware/software things anyway). Even without drinking (which I don't do during working time), it is very easy to meet tons of people. And it works everywhere. The best craft beer bar in my new town (I move often) is open 8 am to 2 am, it's always busy and over 90% of the people just drink coffee there (with 15 beers on draft + more in bottles), the entire day. I work there and when I need a break, I just look around for 5 minutes and someone will make eye contact and start talking. Works everywhere I have been I found (in the US, EU, Asia).


In this scenario do you just sit at the bar and start working? I’ve never been at a bar where this wouldn’t be very strange. But I’ve only been to bars at night on the weekends.


I took the OP's comments as just being frank and honest about his attractions. Let's be real, first impressions do control us to a startling degree.


You aren't wrong.

A sober look at how society judges people should remove all surprise surrounding this topic, unfair as it may be - men are judged primarily by financial / dominance success / physical indicators of dominance (e.g. height) and women are primarily judged on their appearance / youth.


i mean... it doesn't fade away right. it's cyclical. your children will be born to the same fate.


we’re all just skeletons with skin sacks stretched over them


> So...people like you? you sound really judgemental man.

I know it sounds bad, but I don't want to meet people like me. I really don't like myself right now :) I'm looking for a way out from this state, not a way to settle in.

It's like you can't treat depression by hanging out with other depressed people, it'll make you worse.

> Since you have no friends(so nothing to hold you where you are, right?), and apparently a good source of income, I'd advise you to go remote, travel, try digital nomadism, go to meetups, meet other travelers, maybe try coworking spaces? hacker houses/airbnbs with people from lots of different places?

Traveling and digital nomading is definitely on my list, the pandemic delayed the plans. I'm afraid though, that it'll only lead me to meeting more and more developers. I tried a bunch of coworking spaces in my area, and this is exactly what happened. Meetups in my area were also only tech-related.


> […] I don’t want to meet people like me

How do you know they’re like you? How do you know all the single guys there are just looking to hook up or find girlfriends? How do you know all the aging, unattractive women are just looking for a husband? Feels like you are projecting.

To give a different perspective - I also took dance classes before COVID. I went into it with the mindset that I wanted to learn how to dance (to wit, I failed miserable). If dancing is secondary to you, it’s going to be noticed (people can pick up on desperation). Don’t treat it as the chore you have to do before you can talk to someone. My favorite dance partner was a widow that just wanted to dance with a man who knew how to take lead on a dance. She wasn’t looking to date. Just dance and have a conversation. Many of the single women I met there were the same. I made some good friends (not call at 2am for bail money friends). Men and women.

> Meetups in my area were also only tech-related.

Did you try meetup.com? Did they only had tech events where you are? If so, that’s crazy. I found my virtual book club from meetup.com (win!). I tried a wine tasting, but it was 3 groups of people who knew each other and me (loss!). Did learn a lot about wine (win!). Not every meetup is going to be successful so pick things that are actually interesting vs. trying to guess which one will have the most people.

To sum all this rambling up - you have to be interested in the activity of the event. If you’re not and you treat it like a chore, people can tell.


> I wanted to learn how to dance (to wit, I failed miserable)

Perhaps you gave up too early, or had a poor coach. I am terribly awkward, but I persisted, and eventually people who didn't know me told me I was "talented". What a laugh.


Unfortunately my school was closed due to COVID. And it was one of those that couldn’t weather the time closed. I’m going to pick it back up, and go into it realizing that Fred Astaire I ain’t :)


>Did you try meetup.com?

So this is a bit offtopic (but maybe ontopic for HN), did meetup go through some change in ownership, revenue model etc. ? I can agree with the observation that meetup.com doesn't have as many fun/cheap/random/hobby based meetups any more. Everything feels a lot more commercial compared to a few years ago. Maybe it's area specific, maybe it's COVID, maybe it's a bunch of different factors. I think you need to pay to host a meetup whereas it used to be free earlier ?


  > did meetup go through some change in ownership, revenue model etc. ?
Yes, and yes, and yes. It was bought by WeWork and then sold off. It went through an effort to monetize attendance. It raised costs on group organizers. There's a lot less local/random/organic community on there now.


Hm…I don’t know. It would explain why so many of the meetups seem to be more like sponsored “come check out our venue” type things (the wine tasting I did definitely was). There are some legitimate ones in there, but it took a long time to find my book club. I chalked it up to COVID. but maybe it was a change in “we’re not making any money” thinking…


I'm not sure how well this will be received on HN, but if you're looking for a meeting place with folks that generally skew toward more community integration / more vibrant social lives, and which doesn't require already knowing someone, I'd suggest picking up a sport. Granted, you'll have to contend with the stereotypical "bro" types, but there'll also be well-adjusted young professionals in a similar position as yourself, and sports naturally lend themselves toward friendship building. From personal experience, whenever I'm in a new city, I find a local basketball run and before long am going out for drinks / food / concerts with people I consider friends, and have even found roommates in this way.


Many cities also have social co-ed rec softball and volleyball leagues, often with a beer afterwards. It's a great way to meet people once a week for a low pressure activity.


I recommend a Kickball league. Less “bro” types for the most part. Although to be fair, my league had this one team that everyone hated because they were super serious. But the rest of us all got along great.


Dodgeball is another sport like this! There are very serious dodgeball teams, but generally they compete with each other and not the beer league. Even the super serious players tended to be friendly and willing to play at the same level rather than dominating. Added benefit is dodgeball is not dependent on weather.

I think looking for a sport that requires coed teams is a good way to ensure that things remain more social than competitive. (Not knocking women athletes, just noting that mixed sports tend to be about socializing.)


Reminds me of the time I went out to a draft for a softball league and got picked up as the token man. All my teammates played D2 softball together. I always thought I was a reasonably good rec league player. But that team was something else. I lasted 2 games in the field before I got made the designated hitter. If I didn’t get a home run, I was going to be replaced by a pinch runner :)

But after the game, it was a blast.


Ultimate (frisbee) is also great for pretty casual sporting.


> Traveling and digital nomading is definitely on my list, the pandemic delayed the plans.

Ironically, I find this to be even more isolating. One thing is right in the name, nomad, your not making and permanent or lasting friendships. Sure, you meet a lot of people but everyone is just going on their own after. Also I find travel to not be something relatable at all to most people. Most people can't do it, and get weird about it. Its very expensive or you need to luck into a certain life style. No one is interested in seeing travel pics or talking about places ime.


I traveled a bunch in my youth and it’s definitely not a cure all for life’s meaning. It was exactly like that line from Fight Club - single serving friends. After a while it gets tiring to meet interesting people, hang out for a while and go through the topics you enjoy and feel like you connect. Then they’re or you are off to the other side of the world and that’s the end of that friendship. I did meet my wife and have a lot of fun adventures though.

Try it for a few months and you’ll likely realize that you are the common theme in your problems. It’ll be a very enjoyable time nonetheless.


> Most people can't do it, and get weird about it.

What? Definitely not my experience.

> Its very expensive or you need to luck into a certain life style.

Travel does not need to be expensive. Hostels are cheap. If you volunteer, you can even stay for free. Also many regions of the world are inexpensive.

> No one is interested in seeing travel pics or talking about places ime.

Again, not sure what kind of people you're meeting, but I haven't found that to be the case. Then again I've been traveling the last 4 years, so the type of people I meet tend to have the same interests.


Sure when I will travel I meet people interested in travel. I've gotten some cool info for futures trips from people. When I get back home, no one really cares. They're busy being broke or working high stress jobs. 40% of Americans never left the country. Of that how many do you think are just going on a cruise or a carribean resort?

I'm pretty sure you live in a bubble. None of my friends are taking more then a trip a year.

Hostels and volunteering are not for everyone. A vacation that is hard when life is hard is not appealing.


Many Americans never leave the country because the US is already pretty vast. Put Texas on a map of Europe and traveling mostly straight (with some slight detours) from the north tip to the south tip can take you through the Netherlands, Belgium, Luxemburg, France, Germany, Switzerland, and Italy[1].

There's also oceans or large distances separating it from most other countries so going anywhere besides the Caribbean islands or Canada/Mexico is going to require an often not very cheap plane flight (probably $400/person at a minimum, likely more, and roughly 2.5x that if you're wanting to go to Asia/Australia).

Also, only about 37% of Americans have passports[2], and you can go on cruises without a passport (and used to be able to go to Canada/Mexico without one, but that's changed in the last decade), and the process can take 2-3 months and $165 in fees by itself (I just checked, I'm one of those people that still haven't gotten a passport yet...would have if the pandemic didn't happen in 2020, we were planning a trip to Canada that year), so that's a bit of a deterrent as well.

[1]: https://www.texasmonthly.com/the-daily-post/how-big-is-texas... [2]: https://today.yougov.com/topics/travel/articles-reports/2021...


Everyone lives in their own bubble. Sounds like your bubble consists of people who are either too broke for travel, more focused on their high-stress jobs, or just lack interest in travel.

I'd imagine most people here working well-paying jobs in tech living in cities like NYC/SF probably go on more than one vacation per year. In Europe, people get 1-3+ months of vacation, and it's very cheap to travel within Europe.

It's pretty sad if one doesn't spend more than 2+ weeks per year on vacation, unless one really enjoys their work that much, which I imagine probably is not the case for most employees.


It’s just a way to have sex with foreign women. I don’t know why people aren’t just honest about it.


> the pandemic delayed the plans

Don't listen to yourself. I left for Mexico 4 months into the pandemic. Thailand is open, Philippines apparently just opened, Indonesia lets you in with a visa. Do it and don't look back. Pick a country where you can stay 6+ months if you've never traveled before. Find a good DN destination on dedicated websites, not every DN is a developer so you might meet new people just by hanging out there. Open Tinder in these new areas and start meeting people without expectations, you'll have fun.

Being well paid and able to work remotely opens up ridiculous opportunities, don't let them slip. Find some nice cafes (or even a Starbucks) and work there every day, don't stay at home ever.

- an ugly asocial DN in his 30s with out-of-my-league tastes that are sometimes fulfilled. Sent from Java, the island.


> don't stay at home ever

great advice. I think I'm gonna move to a city or some random island and try this


Hey a note on travelling. I met (via reddit chat) a guy who seemed quite depressed to me. He is a nomad who got out of the US 10+ years ago and has lived in several countries. I met him because he was having a rough time in my country and I thought I could help him. However after talking a bit with him it was evident that the problem was himself and not the places he had been (he basically whined about how he had been mistreated at every country he had been. He is some kind of remote web dev nomad).

The point is, you have to be good with yourself before you "escape" to a different country. Otherwise you may only find more trouble in a different language.


Work on yourself first, buddy. Learn to be happy, then people will naturally enter your life and stick around.


This is the right advice, but it's worth noting how hard this is when you're doing the software dev grind, unless you're one of those people discussed in other threads recently who manages to settle in at a company where they don't really expect much more than 2-3 hours of work per day (not judging, I miss this kind of work)

Working on yourself is a more-than-full-time job, and it can take years of work for someone who's developed so much self-loathing. Hobbies are for people who aren't constantly busy with other obligations. And if you're working in solitude in software full-time, you're going to have a hard time finding a hobby that you can just get laser-focused on, not to mention time for exercise if your hobby isn't athletic.


People aren't supposed to be happy when they're isolated -- and being happy doesn't naturally end isolation. That's absurd, and a victim-blaming mentality. (Not to imply OP is a victim.)

The isolation is because we're an atomized society. Humans are psychologically supposed to exist in stable tribes. These have been shrunk down to nuclear families in modern life.


It won't magically end his isolation, no. But, it will create an environment that is conducive to ending it. You run into opportunities every day, and it's up to you to take advantage of them, or immediately drown them in negativity.


Being happy doesn't create an environment.

You're just making a lot of assumptions that conveniently allow you to dismiss and deny the reality of the situation.


Sorry you're taking it as dismissal and denial. It's not meant that way.

I realize there's a problem. I also realize nothing I can say will solve that problem. It's up to tenonyx to solve it. I'm not trying to solve, just trying to help show a perspective on it that one might not immediately see. Because I've been there, too.


Telling people to just "be happy" is not constructive advice. If it was that easy everyone would do it.


You have to learn to like yourself before others will though, having a deep sense of self loathing, even self consciously, will put people off of you, you emanate a deep proverbial psychological stink - and it turns people away.


This. Sorry, I can't give the secret to happiness, but I can tell you to stop looking in places where you won't find it. One of those places is expecting others to give it to you when you have none to give back.


That might be a step further than is necessary. I don’t think you have to like yourself, and it’s much easier to like yourself if someone else likes you first.

However, I do agree that you need to get past self-loathing to at least self-acceptance of some kind. Mostly because self-loathing means putting your attention on yourself, and that is what makes it hard to connect with other people.

It’s ok to not have a high opinion of yourself as long as you don’t place too much importance on it, and are on with yourself.


tolerate then.

You have you not actively dislike yourself.


Agreed - it’s the active part that matters.


I think that's true, its just not helpful advice.

Simply "chosing" to be happy is like simply "chosing" to be a milioniare.


You can choose to work and save and get a little richer every day. The mentality you describe is actually the most dangerous hurdle I found on the path to happiness.


It wont make you any happier, but its the first step down that road.


That's how it worked in the past! That's what I want to achieve. But there are no people who could enter, at least not in this isolated job.


Work is a terrible place to make friends. The incentives are all stacked against it. People at work are competitive, fearful, distrusting, political, formal, reserved, with worksonas turned up to the max. When people leave the company, the majority of the time the reason for the relationship has ceased. Try to bring people into your life through just about any other activity and you will have better results.


My former roommate who works at LinkedIn spends a lot of time hanging out with friends from work. They do things together multiple times a week. Maybe you should try getting a FAANG job and moving to SF/LA/NYC?

Also, my impression of NYC, more so than any other place I've lived, is that there is a general rejection of the idea that your lifestyle is supposed to change when you're 30.


Have you watched Harold and Maude? I'm not sure what you're expecting friendship to look like and how much you're expecting to get out of it, but maybe try to lower your expectations of others. Think about what you can do for other people, and less about what you need from someone else.


> I'm afraid though, that it'll only lead me to meeting more and more developers

Digital nomadism wouldn't do that in my experience; have done that in Bali, HK, SG, Thai, for a while in China when it was more open etc; I met tons of people and while a few said they were programmers, they were not actually programmers (0 experience, bit of html); most were people (of all races/sexes/ages) that were 'doing their own startup' (99%+ horrible ideas; I have been a tech advisor in a few incubators and these would not pass anywhere, but that's not the point) or writing their first book. But they were mostly there for the freedom; the startup/book thing is more of an excuse to be on nice beaches, forest hikes etc. So it's very social.

The coworking places I found there also had close to 0 devs in them; worse, they all wanted me to 'jump in' (I did a few times which was not smart in hindsight).

Many of these people are actively social, attractive and easy to meet up with for drinks, food, sports, walks, etc etc. And then maybe your new startup so you can do that forever.


I had to leave at the start of covid because my income source was at risk and I would have been leaving in 2020 anyway, but as far as I can tell the majority of people I knew working remotely in Bali are still there or if not have just moved on to somewhere new and exciting.

In general young fun people have done their best to keep having fun despite anti covid restrictions, with the boring, depressed inside loners being the ones demanding everyone stay boring and depressed inside. You're going to find it hard to fit in with people different from you if you're going to be coming to them with values that go against their existence.

Developers were a minority. Hell, people with jobs were a minority.


I was going to comment that it didn't sound like you liked yourself much, but you admit as much which is really hard to do. Kudos. Been there, done that. I also noticed when not liking yourself, you tend to even take it out on other people...which may explain that comment somewhat.

My advice is generic but important... you've -got- to like yourself. If you see nothing in yourself, it's like... contagious, and people won't either. I'd wager like 75% of being approachable and likable is confidence.

In short, figure out what you can do self improvement wise to really like yourself first, to gain confidence, then move on to the other stuff people are mentioning.


I echo those suggesting working on yourself. Maybe therapy might be a good option?

I went through a good three years in NYC where I was completely alone, isolated. I tried to branch out, but nothing really stuck until I lucked on a group of friends who I’ve had now for over 5 years.

Sometimes you have to have patience and be content with waiting. The harder you force it, the slower it will come. Sometimes you have to wait years, life does not move on your schedule. In the meantime, you can control working on yourself.


Join a gym that has group exercise classes, like Orange Theory. You’ll find a new friend group, and unless you’re in the Bay Area, they’re unlikely to all be programmers. Plus exercise is always good for your well being.


First step to meeting interesting people is to become interesting yourself. I know this is the crux of the post, but it's true.

Become really good at something, make some younger party friends. Meet people through venues not designed around meeting people. Sports e.g. .


Digital nomads are I've met are only about 5% devs in my experience. A lot of would be digital influencers and marketers. I rather liked Canggu Bali pre pandemic though I think it's still mostly closed at the moment. Pretty people/buildings/scenery. Maybe a bit shallow.


I’m in Thailand in the wintertime and for me it’s hard to find other devs that really code/architect medium to big sized software. I guess you can find Wordpress/Web-Devs everywhere though.


> I really don't like myself right now :)

This seems like the actual issue you should be addressing.


Why should people unlike you like people like you?


> you can't treat depression by hanging out with other depressed people

I disagree, a sense of shared suffering can be really helpful in building close and meaningful friendships. Connecting with another miserable person who understood what I was going through - and plotting with them about what each of us could do to try to change things - was one of the key things in getting me through one of the most depressed periods of my life.

> Meetups in my area were also only tech-related.

No book clubs or discussion groups or political action or volunteer groups? Maybe you need to move; there should be a lot more than tech going on in any decent-sized city. Even if it's such a tech-focused area that lots of the attendees happen to work in tech, you'll see other facets of them at those events; people have passions outside of their careers.


Not sure why this is downvoted. It is well documented that the most demanding activities lead to the strongest and most enduring relationships. War is the most extreme obvious example, but at college students who participate in demanding sports or band or those competitive business groups have far richer social lives in general than those who join casual clubs. In adulthood careers like medicine where people do gruelling shift work together results in again in more enduring and close bonds than in your usual 9 to 5.

It is perhaps an inconvenient truth but share suffering and struggle is the "secret" here. Why do you think childhood friendships are generally the closest ones a person will have? In part because of the intense earnest struggle to figure things out. Which is what brings people together far more effectively than shared happiness or some vague feeling of social dissatisfaction.


This is the total opposite of what you should do. Why would you uproot yourself to meet a bunch of transient people you'll never see again, or if you do it's once per year because they live across the world, when you're explicitly lonely and looking for friends? Those meetings are so pointless compared to cultivating relationships in a permanent place.

OP needs to put down roots in some place he likes and then start finding people he can hang out with regularly. If you do it right, you'll know the cashiers where you shop and the tailor and the butcher and etc. This is how you develop your social life, not by the equivalent of mindless scrolling but for irl socializing.


I think you put your finger on the pulse. OP is probably very shallow and this could explain his loneliness.


Bit of a negative take.


Sounds to me like they need less of the developer space, not more. There's more to life than the screen. Fulfillment comes in many forms.


Just wanted to second the traveling and staying at Airbnbs: if you just book a "room" with locals (as opposed to the full place), it's a great way to meet (usually) open minded people with a different culture that can completely reset your expectations of what life is or should be.


If OP looks down upon his current neighbors for childish, superficial reasons, I doubt relocating will fix his broken "Instagram-warped" perspective.


This was my reaction too. You can’t put off a judgmental vibe like that and expect to attract many cool people.


At the risk of going off-topic, I'm a little taken aback by how we're all still in the middle of a global pandemic. Vaccines don't provide bulletproof immunity and aren't intended to be a license to gather in groups, etc., without precautions.

From that description, your neighbors don't sound particularly appealing. What's there to be envious of re: that?


You can cast your disapproval at what those neighbors are doing, and it might even be perfectly valid (I'd agree with you). It does absolutely nothing to quell that envy that OP is feeling, though - I know the feeling well, and I know many of my friends feel the same way.

This is a long tail of the whole pandemic that doesn't really get discussed.


Okay, I'm in my thirties now too. I'll give it a shot.

1. Get a hobby, travel, volunteer, all that crap: No. That will not solve the inherent issue and as a result you'll still be lonely and unsatisfied.

2. Therapy: lol. Just no.

3. Religion, Pet, Marriage: Will make you more miserable. Now, not only you are lonely, but also have obligations (taking your dog pop).

Here is what you wrote:

> my neighbors from above, probably college students, are having a party of their lifetime, laughing, kicking and screaming

-> Fair enough.

> I was broke, renting a big flat with a bunch of roommates, but young, healthy, and full of enthusiasm (and booze).

-> That's nostalgia for a previous era. Nothing suggests you'll like that lifestyle now.

> I thought my life would only get better. And I made a good career, but in the process, steadily drifted off into isolation.

-> An important part that everyone here is missing. Let's tag this as "Exhibit 1".

> they're all full of lonely developers and other socially awkward people - short guys looking for girlfriends, unattractive/aging women looking for husbands, etc.

-> Everyone here is blaming (and judging you for judging others). Attractiveness is relative, blahblabla. Nope. Old tech people are both unattractive and boring, that's for both sexes (or all sexes). That's reality. You can sugarcoat it in your brain, but that doesn't create "boobs" or make a man stylish.

> All the "normal" people I knew in the past are now changing diapers and working to pay off their mortgages, which I guess is a kind of consolation.

-> Marriage is basically that. A process to make you forget, just like religion. It doesn't give you a meaning, it just makes you busy so you don't think about it.

> Doing things by myself is boring and depressing, and getting into a group of "normal" friends, of both genders, to hang out and laugh with, seems like an impossible goal.

-> Exhibit "2".

> In case someone has any advice beyond finding a hobby, going to therapy, approaching random strangers, it would be greatly appreciated.

-> You have no interests in any hobby (otherwise you'll be doing it) and please don't creep strangers.

> On the other hand, I feel that finding a non-coding job would be ultimately the best way to find new social groups, and get out of the apathy

-> No.

==

Okay. Take Exhibit 1: You had an idea, growing up, of where you wanted to be in the future. You thought that by building a good paying career, you'll have the lifestyle you "deserve". You succeeded in part I (career) and now are surprised that life is not as exciting and rewarding as it should be. You are in "deception" mode. It's like paying for a very expensive car to only find out that it doesn't work.

Take Exhibit 2: You are boring. You don't even like yourself (spending time alone). Of course, people are not going to like you.

So how do you fix this. First one, you should accept your situation. You are deceived but nobody promised you the moon if you did build a career. That was your own thinking. You need to get over it and realize that the time has gone and you should move on.

Second, you should become interesting yourself. Surprise: You might be interesting already without you recognizing it. Do you have an inherent interest in finance, politics, geography, history, music? You can strike a conversation about these topics for 2-3 hours and still talk about nothing.

Here is the last bit: The place, time and circumstance doesn't matter. You only need one friend with whom you share an interest in one of these topics. You share a beer/coffee once or twice a week. You discuss the latest rate hike, stock bubble or why Hitler lost the war. Now, suddenly, reading a book is interesting because you are building ideas for your next talk/discussion with this hypothetical friend. Bonus point if this friend challenges your ideas, do some research himself or is hard to convince in an intellectually stimulating way. Topics like finance are good because there is always something "new" happening in the market. So the discussion carries on.

There is nothing magical about life. Neither there is an end goal by itself. Your brain is just torturing you. You can "run away" by traveling to far away lands to forget about your deception, cold weather and problems. Or you can have have a beer a couple times a week. Second choice seems easier to me and you'll still have your finances in order. You can always travel later, but then you'll make a more informed choice and avoid another "deception".


I just started working at “scale-up” (~400 people) company with a dev team of 50 or so, mostly men, in their late 20s to 30s, mostly without kids yet. They have great camaraderie at work, even over remote channels, and often get beers after work, play ping pong, video games, etc. It’s not super cliquey, and if you try at all, you’ll be integrated into at least some of the fun. Anyway, I guess what I’m saying is, maybe consider joining a fun company with a good culture that’s not remote. Often a great way to meet friends, or at least good people to spend time with after work.


You sound like a person who envisions a life they should have, feels they deserve that life, and are frustrated they don't have it - then judge everyone you wind up interacting with as you try to fix it.

My advice: get over yourself, you're your own worst enemy.

You might not love the people you meet at those meetups, for instance, but if you auto-reject everyone you meet you'll never wind up meeting people via those second or third tier connections. Nothing is saying you have to want to be best friends or date those people you decry, but you're cutting yourself off from potential groups of people that you could be introduced to. You're your own worst enemy here.

Getting a dog or traveling, as others here have said, probably won't fix it - a dog can't help you better yourself, and traveling might hide the issue but you'll still be the same ineffective blocked off "you" wherever you go. Work on yourself more.


Please don't cross into personal attack, even if you're intending to help somebody.

https://news.ycombinator.com/newsguidelines.html


I've read your comment and acknowledge it.

I respectfully disagree that this was a personal attack. If you'd be so kind as to point out how it was, then I'd love to learn more.


"You sound like a person...", followed by pejoratives, is crossing into personal attack. So is using canned personal lines like "get over yourself". So, arguably, is "you're your own worst enemy". So is "you'll still be the same ineffective blocked off 'you'". So, arguably, is "Work on yourself more".

I realize that you meant well but repeatedly putting someone down like this is not the way to help them on the internet. Maybe if you were talking in person and had already established a good personal connection, it would be robust enough to withstand that sort of language. On the internet, though (and maybe not only on the internet), that's not the case.

People using 'tough love' language generally feel that it's justified because their intentions are good, but you can't know that unless you have a lot of information about how it's landing with the other person, and by default, it probably isn't going to land well at all.


I generally agree with the “get over yourself” comment but would like to offer a different perspective. The ending suggestion here and in many other comments is “work on yourself more” which I disagree with as the primary path to take. Instead, work on others more.

Try to make the world around you a better place. Maybe you want to tutor below grade-level kids, tutor high performing kids, help with the homeless challenge in your community, volunteer with the humane society, volunteer with hospice, do some environmental projects, help out with a niche historical society, volunteer at the zoo, etc. The point being, do something (in meat space) for your community that you connect with, and you will come into contact with like-minded people who may or may not be “cool”, but they at least want to help out the world around them too. There’s that old saying “it is better to give than to receive.” If you aren’t already, give that a try. :)

My grandfather was an avid volunteer, far more busy in retirement than most working people. My dad once lamented in a family gathering that he (my dad) didn’t want to retire for fear of becoming bored. My grandfather just said in his special way that is hard to convey, “there’s a lot of good organizations that could use some help.”

All the best to you and your search!


I think this is a good bit as well, and wish I had mentioned it. Well said.


That’s not wrong, but OP sounds desperate for connection. Lowering standards to be part of a group that resolves the loneliness is dangerous and can do a number on ones self-esteem.

Sure, the premature judgement is bad but hanging around people who share different values and on different trajectories is not the solution.

The only solution here is to take massive action to expose one to different groups of people and if nothing works, move somewhere else.


I'm not saying they should lower their standards - I'm simply saying they should manage it better. You don't allow everyone in your life to have the same priority, and this extends to how you manage friendships.

It's 100% okay to have friends that border more on acquaintances, who might lead you to other more interesting people.


I got into miniature painting. First just figures to play games with, but then moved to busts and larger (75mm) display pieces. I pretty much have dedicated myself to these at one point. I still go out to local gaming stores to enjoy games with people, made friends that way to hang with, but what brought real peace to my mind is practicing art on a daily basis.


[flagged]


He’s just saying what everyone is thinking. You sound fake as hell


Speak for yourself, not "everyone".




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