So, you really wanna claim that Apple has an equally confusing product lineup compared to other manufactures? That’s a quite daring claim (and also some impressive misleading quoting you are doing there).
Apple doesn’t ask you to decide based on non-sensical marketing blabber like that. They use it, sure, but it isn’t central in the decision process of the buyer.
One other point: all three Macs I've owned were ready to use out of the box. No stickers, no crapware, no nothing. Contrast this with a recent Anandtech review of a recent Sony Vaio that, hardware-wise, is quite nice, but:
Because of that initial bloat I have a hard time recommending the VAIO S to any end user that can't fix it (including but not limited to just plain physically upgrading the hard drive) or doesn't know someone who can. This is an otherwise fantastic notebook with a lot of potential just looking for the right user, but if you're not comfortable getting elbow deep in cleaning it out (or preferably doing a clean Windows 7 installation), it's not going to be the notebook for you. For those of you who are willing and able to put in the time, though, you'll likely be very well served by the Sony VAIO S.
I now recommend to anyone I know that's nontechnical that they buy their new laptops at the Microsoft Store (we have one nearby). All the computers they sell are crapware free, and even come preloaded with the free, near-invisible MSE instead of the awful antivirus trialware most other Windows computers are afflicted with.
The Microsoft stores feel like really bad rip-offs of the Apple stores and overall their employees do not seem to be knowledgeable about the stuff they are selling. That has been my experience when walking into a Microsoft store.
To counterbalance this, I'll point out I've heard some pretty clueless things come out of the mouths of Apple Store employees too - e.g. "plugging in your macbook air into a macbook pro PSU will damage the battery" and other silly stuff.
Granted, but I don't expect store employees to know that voltage is the only thing that matters, not amps. What I do care about is people knowing what software comes with the new machine, what is installed by default, how much it would cost to get an upgrade to Professional, where Office is discounted with a laptop, what kind of graphics card is in it, how many gigs of memory and other basic questions.
The guys at the Microsoft store I visited made clueless look bright. Apparently they keep getting new machines in with no training at all.
What an odd way to decide which machine you'll use every day for the next year or more.
A clean install is really easy -- maybe one hour if you sit and watch it, fifteen minutes if you use your old laptop while it's going... why would you let a cost of <one hour drive your buying decision?
Setup time is part of the cost of a system. I'm sure that the apple machine isn't actually ready for you to use it out of the box -- if you're like most HN readers you'll have tons of tweaks you need to install before the computer actually works the way you want it to.
I'm writing this on a x220 with a 240GB Vertex3 under the hood, which is 4-10x faster than my coworker's13" 240GB macbook air for bioinformatics workloads. It cost about $100 more, and yes it required a clean install as part of setup.
The profit I've made on that $100 + 1 hour is insane... probably 100x return so far this year on decreased compile & run times (calculated as delta in experiments per day times my annual salary)
First of all, the thing you are replying to isn't in reply to OP's article. It's in reply to a particularly stupid comment.
Secondly, the HN crowd doesn't seem to consider that when selling to large corporations the Dell, Lenovo, etc. "overly complex" approach makes sense -- that there might be a reason that apple isn't the #1 computer manufacturer, especially for institutional purchases.
Fourthly, before talking about "mostly waiting on user input" you should consider the research. ("1.0 second is about the limit for the user's flow of thought to stay uninterrupted") start with http://www.useit.com/papers/responsetime.html
Fifthly, you seem unfamiliar with how scientific computing works. Here's the process:
1. Hypothesis (usually but not always done by professor or adviser)
2. Find a dataset, or multiple datasets that should be able to falsify #1
3. Code up an initial test in R or Mathematica (or Matlab if you don't like FP) -- does the correlation even exist? How well do the off-the-shelf methods work?
4. If you think you can do better, write it up in C++/Java, testing as you go
5. If the process requires a lot of CPU time for near perfection (NN / RBM / GA / GP), run task on server for use in your publication (graphs / discrimination percentages)
Only #5 is really effective to put on the server... Working with Mathematica remotely is a PITA with non-university hardware (licences), and remote interfaces have annoyingly high latency IMHO.
Sixthly, I do like fiddling with knobs, but to use your own turn of phrase back at you... just admit it: you didn't think before writing what you wrote. You're not analyzing and trying to understand anything in your post, only stating an opinion backed up with no facts. Like a child wandering in to a university lecture and announcing that there are no negative numbers because your teacher told you so.
That you were not downvoted to oblivion before I saw this is merely symptomatic of HNs irrational love of apple products.
If I could make a 100x profit on my time doing it, you bet.
To put more forcefully: if I needed to maintain one of those room sized refrigerators, and could save $10,000 for a couple hours of messing with a compressor the decision is a no brainer.
I agree that mortals can't/won't do this -- doesn't mean the HN crowd is being intelligent when they say what the guy I replied to was saying :p
EDIT: Downvoters, please explain -- For people with high computing requirements who insist on the x220 / Macbook air form factor, this is an accurate picture of the ROI.
Because you are missing the point. The discussion is on basic marketing which implies to the general populace, not HNers who are comfortable re-installing their OS. And you preface with "How odd..." either unknowingly or just plain condescendingly describing 95% of the computer buying public. Then you fib that Macs are not ready for use out-of-the-box. Then you put forth the classic defense of exaggerating the value of your work.
Thanks for the reply. It cleared up my misunderstanding -- I think HN readers don't do a good job thinking when it comes to Apple stories.
(for those curious here is the breakdown of why pbreit is wrong:
1. The guy I was replying to is by definition an HNer, and was talking about buying an air over a sony SB due to reinstall concerns. My "how odd" was in reply / directly to him.
2. Macs aren't ready to use out of the box. No computer is. You need to, at the very least, install all the apps you use and copy over your data. This takes considerable time. Did it come with Chrome? Did it come with Office? Did it come with (your editor of choice)? Did it come with Little Snitch? 1password? The caps-lock key switched to a control key? Inconsolata installed? No. And that's not a complete list by a long shot. Adding an hour long reinstall to this list isn't a big deal.
3. The x220 and Macbook air do have the same form factor from a functional perspective. They both are quite easy to keep with you at all times, hence both inhabiting the thin and light category used by most review sites. Yes the air is thinner, but it gives up being able to accept good hard drives to do so... making the x220 the smallest you can go and still get good performance.
4. I wasn't exaggerating the value of my work. I don't even think my numbers were above average for engineer pay...)
With #2 you're being disingenuous. All computers need some work, but PCs require much more work to uninstall crapware.
As for #3, only one of the laptops you listed fits comfortably in my girlfriend's purse. As for the Air's hard drive? She has zero complaints, and I doubt her (or many others) would notice tiny differences in sequential read times (which is, I think, a measure of app-opening performance).
Okay, last reply and then I leave you guys to the fate of irrational happiness paying more for worse hardware.
re 2: It takes an hour to reinstall windows. If you swap out the hard drive (so a vertex 3 in a MBP), this is something you have to do with an apple anyway. One hour is not "much more work". Don't kid yourself.
re 3: If the MBA owner does anything CPU intensive they will likely profit by upgrading to the x220. Look at the real world numbers (http://www.anandtech.com/show/3991/apples-2010-macbook-air-1...) to get a better picture here. x220 numbers are harder to show, as no reviewers saw fit to review with a good hard drive in it -- just compare with the MBP in that review and know that the x220 with a vertex 3 is between 2 and 10x the 2010 15" MBP on those benchmarks (http://www.notebookreview.com/default.asp?newsID=6056&re...).
But really, I think you're probably right -- it sounds like a mac would be better for you
You're here linking benchmark charts, because as a power user you believe power users represent a large subset of computer owners. We don't. We're in the minority.
My girlfriend, and everyone else in the humongous non-power-user subset, does not care about how a Vertex 3 can bury an Air's SSD. She doesn't know the Vertex exists! If she did, she'd probably ask why she should spend $300 on it if her Air already works amazingly well.
We're talking about different groups here. You're talking about the type of people who read computer hardware blogs like Anandtech. I'm talking about everyone else in the world.
> implying that power users are the only ones who should think about performance.
1.0 second is about the limit for the user's flow of thought to stay uninterrupted. This turns out to make a big difference in productivity. See http://www.useit.com/papers/responsetime.html
I'm talking about anyone who values their time. You're talking about secretaries looking at cat pictures. You're also doing that on a thread started when a HNer said he purchases laptops via the same method.
Please:
1. Read the whole thread to ensure your "points" weren't already made elsewhere
2. Consider not replying when you don't have any information not obviously inferable from your previous post.
I'm talking about anyone who values their time. You're talking about secretaries looking at cat pictures.
Calm down there, Sparky. Are you really suggesting someone doesn't value their time because they bought an Air over an X220 with a SSD? You understand that such an assertion is ridiculous, right?
Here's a "point" for you: given the economic concept of utility, are you shocked that someone would pass on an X220 + Vertex in favor of an Air and a month of groceries? How about the idea that the marginal benefit of a Vertex 3 over an Air may be tiny enough to some that they'll pass?
We haven't even discussed failure rates, which are anecdotally bad on older Vertexes; can you blame someone for choosing an Air, along with 3 years of service at any Apple Store?
Also, another "point" for you: I sincerely doubt you would've responded like that in person, so you should probably re-read HN's commenting rules and think twice next time.
1. I accept your point that those with limited capital sometimes need to sacrifice their potential -- if you can't afford college then your annual income will be lower (though perhaps not lifetime income).
2. Diminishing marginal utility is not usually considered to apply to time -- are you saying that your girlfriend would rather use a mac than add an additional ~year of work/play time to her lifespan?
3. Note that the concept of diminishing marginal utility is different than the concept of utility.
Why would you be doing something CPU intensive on a MBA like computer? Surely you just ssh into the beefy workstation in the corner or in the data centre to do the heavy lifting? Seems like a non-argument to me.
That was my point: you wouldn't on a MBA like computer. You would on a high-performance small formfactor laptop like the x220. See my other replies for more information
No, you'd do it on a Mac Pro, or, if you want to try and save money, on a PC hidden in a closet somewhere. You'll need a PC hidden in a closet somewhere as soon as you need a cluster anyway. Same for compilation, Xcode even makes it easier for you to set up a distributed build.
Now, there are reasons to get a strong laptop. A good one is if you need some serious power on the go. Are you running that bioinformatics software while on an airplane?
No, you'd use EC2 servers to avoid doing your own maintenance, and you'd do so as a last resort because GUIs are useful and remote development is laggy. http://www.useit.com/papers/responsetime.html
That's the 2010 Macbook Air, which did indeed have a brutally slow Core 2 Duo. It would be more useful to look at the mid-2011 model, which has a processor three generations newer (due to some sort of tedious dispute between Intel and NVidia, there were never embedded NVidia chipsets for Nehalem, so Apple waited until Intel GPUs got good enough, in Sandy Bridge; they never made a Nehalem Air).
Wait, I thought Apple hardware just works and delivers exceptional user experience without concerning the user with "2010" vs "mid-2011" or specifics of which CPU it uses and why.
Who's claiming that? For a while, the Macbook Air was in fact a particularly bad choice if you wanted high processor performance (which is a big if; computers are now fast enough that for many users it hardly matters). This is no longer the case. Simple enough.
Regarding #2: plug in your previous Mac's Time Machine drive and it takes two minutes to initiate a restore. All your apps and data are restored automatically for you while you sit back and have lunch. What's that process like on Windows?
I've used Windows for decades and have yet to find a solution that is satisfactory for reinstalling apps. Documents and other data, sure that's easy on Windows and I fully agree with you there.
Rather than suggesting I google something (what, "windows backup software"? and spend several days becoming familiar with the myriad solutions?) since you seem to be so informed on similarly performing backup software as Time Machine and this is a site meant to have civil discussions, perhaps you can recommend a Windows backup solution that can restore all your apps as easily as Time Machine can. Or, for that matter, how I can network two Windows machines together and copy all the apps from one machine to the other like I can on a Mac by copying the contents of the Applications folder.
1. Not all mac apps can be copied by dragging folders out of the applications folder.
2. There are many many different backup solutions for windows -- many of which are far better than Time Machine for certain use cases (say, managing backups for several thousand machines). You probably want to look at http://www.codinghorror.com/blog/2008/01/whats-your-backup-s... for a simple solution.
Have you ever met an ordinary computer user? You're describing things an HNer might do with a new computer. Most people just leave the crapware on and never install anything. They either don't know how to remove it or don't know that it's the thing slowing their computer down.
Yeah I downvoted you. You claimed it was odd that people would buy based on X when it's clearly you that are the oddball running extremely performance critical tests that demand specific hardware. It's pretty clear what your purchase decision should be and it's also pretty clear that this doesn't apply to over 99% of everyone else in the market for an ultraportable laptop.
This comment continues in that line again and paints your absurd outlier case of 4-10x improvement as "an accurate picture of the return on investment" while again committing the error of thinking these 2 machines have the same form factor.
That's just it: with a vertex 3 and a maxed out CPU the x220 doesn't perform like a thin and light -- I'm getting the same IO performance as a vertex 3 in a desktop, and although I could get a CPU boost with a desktop processor I'd have to give up on having all my work with me at all times / at conferences.
The EC2 option has always interested me, but short of EBS RAID its IO actually isn't better than a vertex 3 -- they're crazy fast; if you haven't tried them I highly recommend you do :)
Can you even do a clean install on most Windows laptops that are purchased, unless you also purchase Windows separately? Pretty much all Windows laptops I've seen since around 2003 don't come with stock Windows, but come with a 'recovery disk' which reimages the disk back to factory default - meaning, with the original crapware.
i cared about doing clean installs/configuring when i was a teenager and had nothing else to do. now i just want my computer stay out of my way and make me money. os x, time machine, etc all let me do that
It's just a matter of principle. If I buy a new machine (any type of machine), it should be ready for use as soon as I take it home. If I have to configure it that's fine, but things shouldn't ship broken.
I consider myself a power user and I still would not spend time doing a clean install.
When I buy a MacBook Pro I know that I get a computer that is powerful enough for me and just works. I am not going to spend a premium and computer that I hope I can get to work. If I spend that much on something I should not have to fiddle with doing reinstalls.
Apple doesn’t ask you to decide based on non-sensical marketing blabber like that. They use it, sure, but it isn’t central in the decision process of the buyer.
One other point: all three Macs I've owned were ready to use out of the box. No stickers, no crapware, no nothing. Contrast this with a recent Anandtech review of a recent Sony Vaio that, hardware-wise, is quite nice, but:
Because of that initial bloat I have a hard time recommending the VAIO S to any end user that can't fix it (including but not limited to just plain physically upgrading the hard drive) or doesn't know someone who can. This is an otherwise fantastic notebook with a lot of potential just looking for the right user, but if you're not comfortable getting elbow deep in cleaning it out (or preferably doing a clean Windows 7 installation), it's not going to be the notebook for you. For those of you who are willing and able to put in the time, though, you'll likely be very well served by the Sony VAIO S.
(http://www.anandtech.com/show/4748/sony-vaio-sb-all-day-cons...)
I read something like that and think, "Where's the MacBook Air link again..."