Personally as an atheist-ish / lapsed Catholic, original sin is just about the only thing I've never actually doubted, Chesterton put it very well:
“Modern masters of science are much impressed with the need of beginning all inquiry with a fact. The ancient masters of religion were quite equally impressed with that necessity. They began with the fact of sin – a fact as practical as potatoes. Whether or no man could be washed in miraculous waters, there was no doubt at any rate that he wanted washing. But certain religious leaders in London, not mere materialists, have begun in our day not to deny the highly disputable water, but to deny the indisputable dirt. Certain new theologians dispute original sin, which is the only part of Christian theology which can really be proved. Some followers of the Reverend R. J. Campbell, in their almost too fastidious spirituality, admit divine sinlessness, which they cannot see even in their dreams. But they essentially deny human sin, which they can see in the street. The strongest saints and the strongest sceptics alike took positive evil as the starting-point of their argument. If it be true (as it certainly is) that a man can feel exquisite happiness in skinning a cat, then the religious philospher can only draw one of two deductions. He must either deny the existence of God, as all atheists do; or must deny the present union between God and man, as all Christians do. The new theologians seem to think it a highly rationalistic solution to deny the cat.”
Yeah, there's your problem right there. At the risk of stating what should be painfully obvious to any sane person, there is no "fact of sin", and you certainly can't use the claim of a "fact of sin" as a justification for the idea of original sin. It's a completely circular argument. Garbage in, garbage out.
> should be painfully obvious to any sane person, there is no "fact of sin"
When Chesterson asserts the fact of sin, he's saying that there in fact exists plainly perceptible offenses against morality [1], e.g. murder, pedophilia, rape to name the more extreme and obvious cases. In other words, evil.
So you deny the existence of offenses against morality or evil?
[1] "But they essentially deny human sin, which they can see in the street"
> So you deny the existence of offenses against morality or evil?
I deny that any human has ever come out of the womb having committed any such offenses, and I deny that infants (and even children) are morally culpable for offenses committed by fully fledged persons with moral agency. You should be ashamed of yourself for even contemplating such a horrible notion.
Also, since you list pedophilia in your trinity of offenses against morality, I will also point out that the biggest coverups of child sexual abuse in history was conducted by the Catholic church. The cases that have come to light recently are probably just the tip of the iceberg. Taking men at the peak of their sexuality, telling them that having sex is a sin, and then putting them in charge of a congregation is like putting someone in charge of a kitchen and telling them that eating is sin.
And finally, as long as you've gone and pulled my trigger, I will also point out that there is a lot of daylight between pedophilia (which is a psychiatric disorder, not a moral offense) and actual child abuse (which is a moral offense because there is a victim). Getting sexually aroused is not a sin. Neither is gratifying that arousal by self-pleasuring, or by any sexual activity between mutually consenting adults irrespective of their gender and marital status. You want a "fact of sin"? Here you go: one of the biggest sins humans commit is telling people they are sinful simply because they experience a normal human emotion. That is so sick and twisted that the word "sin" doesn't even do it justice. If you believe in original sin and you want to see evil, look in the mirror.
> I deny that any human has ever come out of the womb having committed any such offenses...
That doesn't answer my question. Based on your answer, you seem to be interpreting the "fact of sin" to be original sin. I don't believe that is Chesteron's meaning as I showed in my comment. The fact of sin is the assertion that sin exists. Chesteron says it's obvious because one can "see it on the street"
However, in this statement you made:
> there is no "fact of sin", and you certainly can't use the claim of a "fact of sin" as a justification for the idea of original sin
you do differentiate between the fact of sin and original sin.
I'll ask another way. Do you believe murder is an offense against morality and is evil? If so, I don't understand why you would deny the fact of sin.
On child sexual abuse in the Catholic church. My stance on that is that it is shameful and absolutely repugnant. The men involved should be prosecuted to the full extent of the law. And for those who are unrepentant, I highly doubt their faith is genuine. The life of a true Christian is marked by repentance after moral failure.
On your comments on pedophilia. From reading your comment, I realize that I used the wrong wording by including pedophilia in the list of sins. I assumed the term included acting out of the behavior, but it doesn't. So I redact that term from the list and replace it with "sexual abuse of children".
Btw, it might not matter to you too much, but I don't aim to trigger you or anyone else with my comments. I see HN as a place for dispassionate and intellectual discourse on a wide variety of topics. Since the topic at hand is about spiritual things, I offer my comments about Christianity here. There are Christians way smarter than me that have much better writing on this topic than I do. e.g. https://www.bethinking.org/is-christianity-true/the-evidence...
> The fact of sin is the assertion that sin exists.
No, it isn't. Chesterton never says what "the fact of sin" is. All he says is that it is the "fact of sin", as if there were only one. There isn't. There are many facts about sin, one of which is that people don't agree about what is sinful.
BTW, William Lane Craig is a charlatan. If you are really interested in dispassionate and intellectual discourse you need to read Bart Ehrman or Richard Carrier.
> All he says is that it is the "fact of sin", as if there were only one. There isn't. There are many facts about sin...
You really believe that is what Chesterton meant? You think he thought there is only one single fact about the subject of sin? I find your interpretation hard to believe.
> Chesterton never says what "the fact of sin" is
First, if that is true, then how can you so vehemently deny something (the fact of sin) that you claim hasn't even been defined?
Second, Chesterton doesn't define it explicitly, but from a cursory reading of the text, I think it's pretty easy to infer.
> Some followers of the Reverend R. J. Campbell, in their almost too fastidious spirituality, admit divine sinlessness, which they cannot see even in their dreams. But they essentially deny human sin, which they can see in the street
Here Chesterton criticizes followers of Campbell for denying the existence of human sin when it's obvious it exists in front of their eyes. This text is a few sentences after he asserts the "fact of sin". And the sentences in between are all about the existence of sin.
It's pretty obvious that when he says the fact of sin, he means the fact that sin exists.
> BTW, William Lane Craig is a charlatan.
Backing up your claims with evidence would make them more substantive especially with such a serious allegation. And even if he is (which I don't believe since I haven't seen any evidence), there are plenty of other examples on the website I linked to (and other sites). But I suppose you'd think they are all charlatans.
> read Bart Ehrman or Richard Carrier.
Sure. This is the second time I've seen Ehrman referenced on this thread. I'm game to to read up on them.
> You really believe that is what Chesterton meant?
I have no idea what he meant. I do not have ESP, and given that Chesterton is long dead, it probably wouldn't be effective even if I did. All I know is what the text says.
> First, if that is true, then how can you so vehemently deny something (the fact of sin) that you claim hasn't even been defined?
I deny that there exists a single Fact of Sin that is so privileged that it can be coherently referred to as THE fact of sin in a rational argument. The phrase "the fact of sin" is non-sensical, a turn of phrase cunningly designed to make you think it has a referent when in fact it does not. The rhetoric of Christianity is rife with such linguistic ploys. They are necessary to cover up the fact that Christianity is both logically incoherent and inconsistent with the laws of physics. It is the longest of long cons.
> from a cursory reading of the text, I think it's pretty easy to infer.
Yes, I know you think so, but you are wrong. Like I said, "the fact of sin" is a turn of phrase cunningly designed to make you think it has, not only a referent, but a self-evident one. But it doesn't. There is no self-evident "fact of sin", including:
> It's pretty obvious that when he says the fact of sin, he means the fact that sin exists.
That is far from obvious, because from that premise his conclusion does not follow. What does it even mean that "sin exists"? Does it mean that at some point in history some person committed a sin? Does it mean that at any given time there is at least one person committing a sin? Does it mean that humans have within them the potential to commit sins at any time even thought there could be times when they don't act on that potential? Don't bother answering, those are rhetorical questions. The point is that the idea that "sin exists" is another one of those phrases that is cunningly designed to make you think that it means something, and that you understand what it means, when in fact it is utter nonsense (because of its ambiguity).
> Backing up your claims with evidence
LOL. Can you show me any evidence that there is an afterlife?
There is no evidence for Christianity. None. Zero. And many of its claims are absurd on their face. Do you really believe that zombies walked the streets of Jerusalem and not a single person thought it was worthy of note other than the author of Matthew? Or that Jesus raised Lazarus from the dead and not a single person thought this was worthy of note other than the author of John? It's just ridiculous. These are transparent fictions.
A critical examination of the Bible reveals it to be nothing more than human mythology of the sort regularly produced by humans [1]. Christianity just happened to get a boost by being in the right place at the right time when Rome fell and created a power vacuum for the church to step in to.
Read Carrier's "Proving History: Bayes's Theorem and the Quest for the Historical Jesus" and then come back and we can talk.
---
[1] Note: I in no way mean to denigrate or disparage the value of mythology. But it is important not to conflate it with reality.
> I have no idea what he meant. I do not have ESP, and given that Chesterton is long dead, it probably wouldn't be effective even if I did.
An author writes to convey information and meaning. One of the main responsibilities a reader has is to find out what the author meant by his words. [1] I don't think one needs ESP or to interview the author personally to find out the meaning he was trying to convey in his writing.
> All I know is what the text says.
What the text says is what the author says, his meaning.
In this case, you are interpreting "fact of sin" to mean "as if there were only one.". That's quite an uncharitable and illogical interpretation. I don't think Chesterton thought that there exists only one fact about sin. It's common sense that there is more than one fact about such a broad topic as sin.
> the idea that "sin exists" is another one of those phrases that is cunningly designed to make you think that it means something, and that you understand what it means, when in fact it is utter nonsense (because of its ambiguity).
Webster says sin is "an offense against religious or moral law". Since you're not religious, let's go with offense against moral law.
What's moral law? Webster says "a general rule of right living"
So do offenses against rules of right living exist?
A man rapes and murders a person. Was that an offense against right living? I would say so. It was a sin. Rape and murder as well as other sins have been committed throughout history, are currently being committed and will be committed in the future. Sin exists.
> LOL. Can you show me any evidence that there is an afterlife?
I challenged your claim that William Lan Craig is a charlatan and you change the topic?
I don't have time to fully answer your challenges. I'll just leave some references. [2]
> Read Carrier's "Proving History: Bayes's Theorem and the Quest for the Historical Jesus" and then come back and we can talk.
I may just do that. Thanks.
While we're on the subject of evidence, I will leave with these thoughts.
Science is wonderful and is capable of explaining many truths about the universe and has resulted in much good. But it has its limits. It can not speak to questions of morality, the human condition, etc [3]
Obviously, there is a large component of faith involved in Christianity or any religion or spiritual matters. But I always argue that it is the nature of reality that everyone is required to live by faith [4]
[1] Fundamental Factors of Comprehension in Reading (Davis, 1944):
> One of the main responsibilities a reader has is to find out what the author meant by his words.
No, it is the responsibility of the writer, if they are advancing a factual claim (as opposed to, say, providing entertainment), to convey their meaning clearly and unambiguously, which Chesterton did not. A reader has no responsibility to a writer of nonsense beyond calling it out as nonsense.
>So, what do you call me the thing that drives otherwise reasonable humans to hate each other?
Go to Google News and search for the terms 'sectarian violence', 'religious violence' and 'blasphemy'.
There are the Sunni and Shia killing each other in the Middle East, the Christians and Muslims killing each other in Nigeria and Hindu religious leaders calling for the mass killing of Muslims in India. In Pakistan, angry mobs regularly beat people to death and set them on fire for the merest perceived slight against Islam.
There is far too much intolerance, violence, misery and death in the world today caused by people acting on or motivated by their unsubstantiated religious beliefs.
There is far too much intolerance, violence, misery and death in the world today caused by people acting on or motivated by their u̶n̶s̶u̶b̶s̶t̶a̶n̶t̶i̶a̶t̶e̶d̶ ̶r̶e̶l̶i̶g̶i̶o̶u̶s̶ beliefs.
e.g. USSR anti-religious campaign of 1928–1941:
"The campaign began in 1929, with the drafting of new legislation that severely prohibited religious activities and called for an education process on religion in order to further disseminate atheism and materialist philosophy. "
"The main target of the anti-religious campaign in the 1920s and 1930s was the Russian Orthodox Church and Islam, which had the largest number of faithful. Nearly all of its clergy, and many of its believers, were shot or sent to labour camps. Theological schools were closed, and church publications were prohibited.[1] More than 85,000 Orthodox priests were shot in 1937 alone.[2] Only a twelfth of the Russian Orthodox Church's priests were left functioning in their parishes by 1941.[3]"
"Stalin called for an "atheist five year plan" from 1932–1937, led by the LMG, in order to completely eliminate all religious expression in the USSR.[43] It was declared that the concept of God would disappear from the Soviet Union.[43]"
I used your original wording with strikethrough to make my point, but I think this would be a more accurate statement:
There is far too much intolerance, violence, misery and death in the world today caused by violent people acting on or motivated by their beliefs without any restraint.
This applies to any kinds of beliefs be it religious, political, economic, philosophical, moral, etc.
> Anti-religion campaigns are still in effect caused by religion, since they wouldn't be necessary if it weren't for religion. Next!
You seem to have missed my point.
The GP is saying religion is the cause of much violence, etc. I'm refuting that by saying violent people are the cause of much violence and that's orthogonal to religion.
The anti-religion campaign is just one example, not the whole point.
I hope you are not blaming religion for Stalin's campaign. That's akin saying it was the believers' own fault that they were massacred because they believed in religion.
> since they wouldn't be necessary
So anti-religion campaigns like this massacre are necessary because religion exists? I hope that is just you misspeaking and using a poor choice of words. Perhaps you meant wouldn't exist? If not and you meant necessary, that is despicable.
We pretend to seek out reasons, when we're actually just looking for excuses.
"I didn't actually do anything wrong, something outside of me made me do wrong, you can't prove it wasn't chemicals"
"There's no such thing as a shared moral code ,it doesn't exist, unless someone hurts me and then suddenly, they did something horribly wrong"
Our ancestors are fortunately a bit wiser than we are, they know there are things that cannot be excused, swept under the rug of moral relativism. They can only be "forgiven" as C.S Lewis explains in https://www.cslewisinstitute.org/webfm_send/111
Thinking all there is is moral relativism is a tiny baby step in the long journey of deriving your own objective basis for making moral judgements, and C.S. Lewis's works are essentially religious allegories but with better character development, so hardly a reference that carries rhetorical weight here.
- there is no conflict between lower level concepts such as quarks, electrons, atoms, molecules and higher level concepts like reactions, processes, yield and throughput
I think there is no conflict between "Genetics, cultural values, chemicals, hormones, electrical impulses" and sin.
I don't expect any answers, but at least I've tried explain my position.
US Revolutionary War
War of 1812
US Civil War
Spanish American War
WWI
WWII
Korean War
Vietnam War
GWI
GWII
WoT
Nearly all of them really. Wars are fought over resources and pride of leaders. Sometimes religion can be used as a recruiting tool, but the war isn't really about religion.
You can argue that since people who fight in wars have religious beliefs that religion is involved, but you can say the same things about sticks and shoes. I don't think that is a compelling argument.
If you mean the war between the US on one side and al-Qaeda and various other Islamist groups on the other, that’s…a pretty bad exampe of a war that doesn’t involve religion.
> Korean War
> Vietnam War
The US’s global war on Communism, during and as a symbol of which it added religious languge to the pledge of allegiance and replaced its diversity-endorsing de facto model with a religious official motto is, while less of a clearly bad example than the “Global War on Terror”, not a great example of a war not involving religion.
>If you mean the war between the US on one side and al-Qaeda and various other Islamist groups on the other, that’s…a pretty bad example of a war that doesn’t involve religion.
Ya I included that intentionally because it was the only one I could think of that was related to religion in anything I would consider close to meaningful.
It really depends on how loosely you want to define "involve," like I said, wars involve sticks and shoes because everyone uses them. Nearly everything involves language does that means all wars involve language? I guess so in a pedantic sense, but still, so what? Wars don't involve language in any meaningful way other than a means of communication. I would argue because of that, language is far more important than any semblance of religion in all of the wars I listed.
What's the point of your or the OP's argument? Following the definition of "involve," anything involves religion, even an atheist walking down the sidewalk, because the sidewalk was funded by at least one person who happens to be religious. Not overly meaningful.
Here's OBL's "Letter To America," where he states his reasons for his attacks.
In bin Laden's November 2002 "Letter to America",[3][4] he said that al-Qaeda's motives for the attacks included Western support for attacking Muslims in Somalia, supporting Russian atrocities against Muslims in Chechnya, supporting the Indian oppression against Muslims in Kashmir, support for Israel in Lebanon, the presence of US troops in Saudi Arabia,[4][5][6] US support of Israel,[7][8] and sanctions against Iraq.[9]
I mean I guess if you really wanted to make a connection to religion you could, but in the statement he mentions Israel, not Judaism, so it would be a stretch in my mind. The only connection to religion is the term "Muslims," and those citations are always followed by "in" a country. Hell, even the crusades weren't fought over religion, they were fought over resources and power, the church just used religion to get free cannon fodder. Of course Bush, in his infinite wisdom called the WoT a "crusade," which again I guess "involves" religion in that it was mentioned in a speech, but again, not in an overly meaningful way.
What I think the OP was trying to say, perhaps I'm wrong, is that religion is bad and as an example, all wars involve religion. If that's the case, I disagree with the premise.
All wars involve dirt therefore dirt is bad. Prophetic!
The problem is that Catholics treat sin as a static field and any sane person treat it as an instance field.
Why do we need to baptize infants? Because they have original sin. How could they get it if they haven't done anything? Because Adam and Eve sinned and their sin is shared with all of humanity. How are we responsible fot their sin? We aren't but God still had to kill himself to forgive us. Cause reasons.
It gets more stupid the more you try to explain this absurd away, and the mess of a quote by Chesterton showcases that. It conflates the original sin with regular sins of adults.
Which BTW according to Catholic doctrine aren't universal "facts" at all - because some people are saints and have no instance sins, just the static (original) sin shared from Adam and Eve. And Saint Mary had neither for some reason (probably because Christ multiple inherited from Human and God and something would break if he inherited the static field).
I was a very religious Catholic for about 20 years and it never made sense to me. If it makes sense to you you probably never thought about it much.
> Why do we need to baptize infants? Because they have original sin. How could they get it if they haven't done anything?
Because the idea of original sin doesn't, or only superficially, has anything to do with wrongful acts. What the idea of original sin is about that humans, by their very nature and in their being are confronted with evil. Or if you want a secular version call it injustice, or the ethical and the unethical, but certainly I did not need Catholicism to see that humans are, by virtue of simply being human, not 'sinless'. If there was nothing to the idea of humans being sinful, then living a moral life would not be a struggle, we'd be 'divine' by nature and as Chesterton says just walking across the street rids most people of that idea very quickly.
>If it makes sense to you you probably never thought about it much.
Pretty much the other way around. When I was 15 it made less sense to me than it does now exactly because I hadn't thought about it much. Part of having a proper and mature understanding when arguing about religious issues is to learn to take things seriously and not as literally as many people do today.
>> > Why do we need to baptize infants? Because they have original sin. How could they get it if they haven't done anything?
> Because the idea of original sin doesn't, or only superficially, has anything to do with wrongful acts. What the idea of original sin is about that humans, by their very nature and in their being are confronted with evil. Or if you want a secular version call it injustice, or the ethical and the unethical, but certainly I did not need Catholicism to see that humans are, by virtue of simply being human, not 'sinless'. If there was nothing to the idea of humans being sinful, then living a moral life would not be a struggle, we'd be 'divine' by nature and as Chesterton says just walking across the street rids most people of that idea very quickly.
Okay, so...why do we need to baptize infants? I don't really see any answer here. If it were just about human nature, then what does pouring water over the head of a baby achieve? I don't see any problem with it as a general ritual to help remind us of our nature, but that's explicitly _not_ what Catholic doctrine teaches; it claims that it has an important, non-trivial effect cleanses the infant itself. Whatever that effect is, it doesn't seem to do much to the human nature that causes it to sin when it gets older.
> What the idea of original sin is about that humans, by their very nature and in their being are confronted with evil.
This is the kind of poetic language behind which people hide confusion so that they can still believe in this. I did the same. I understand the reflexive "let's not think about this too much in case we stop believing".
What does it actually mean to be "confronted with evil" and why is it a problem requiring Christ to die before people with no personal sins could be admitted to heaven?
> I did not need Catholicism to see that humans are, by virtue of simply being human, not 'sinless'.
Clothes by virtue of being clothes are not "dirtless". Dirt exists in the world. Does it mean that before any clothes can be worn to a ball we need to metaphorically wash the generalized dirtiness out of everything? Or do we wash the clothes that are actually dirty and don't wash the clothes that are actually clean?
This confusion of static and instance fields is the main issue with Catholicism.
Because dirt exists all over the world all clothes are in need of washing at some point (or not worn I suppose). Confronting sin, temptation, immorality whether you want to look at it from a religious perspective or secular, is part of the human condition. No human can live a life and not be confronted with jealousy, anger, greed, pride or if you don't like the Christian undertones fill in whatever you think of as a sin. We all confront the same questions.
And to the first point, as Chesterton says you don't need to accept any religious answer at all. As he says, the theodicy question, how the existence of manifest evil can be reconciled with a benevolent god, has driven countless of people away from faith, not to it. And he says that's fine, but you can't pretend it doesn't exist.
> Because dirt exists all over the world all clothes are in need of washing at some point
Some aren't. And certainly washing one cloth because other is dirty or can get dirty doesn't make sense. So how does it make sense when it comes to sins?
> We all confront the same questions.
Meaningless poetic language again. Some of us don't. And even assuming that we all do - we also confront low temperatures and yet Christ didn't burn on cross to heat us all for eternity. And even if he did burn he would only heat the people near him at the time. How does this future-proof abstract-idea-solving suicide work, exactly? Doesn't seem to work that well if we still "confront evil".
The whole point of original sin in Catholicism isn't that we have to confront evil. It's just an excuse for why we need Jesus and baptism.
> As he says, the theodicy question
This isn't theodicy. I'm not asking why is there evil. I'm asking why do we all need Christ to die for us and why do we need baptism if personal sins aren't guaranteed and the original sin is just the capability to sin or possibility of encountering sin.
I don't wash the idea of clothes because some real clothes can possibly get dirty later.
What the original sin actually is in Catholicism is not some capability - it's an abstract idea that makes it impossible for specific people to get to heaven without Christ dying for them. And it makes no damn sense.
> Because dirt exists all over the world all clothes are in need of washing at some point
Being gay this one made me really laugh. People can hardly agree on what dirt is, and when they do, they often change their mind 100 years later anyway (or wait 500 years to apologize, as was the case with the Church's treatment of Galileo). Society is built on social contracts, compromises we make to optimize our interactions with society as a whole. As an individual you have freedom to ascribe meaning, value, and take stock in whatever moral beliefs you see fit, but it is dangerous to assume that you are "correct" or that there is some ideal set of values that will be correct for all of eternity. Culture evolves, technology evolves, morality has to evolve with it. When morality fails to evolve as fast as culture or technology, we get things like wars, things like apartheid, things like conversion camps, genocide, etc., etc., and there is no greater damper on moral progress than religion.
> When morality fails to evolve as fast as culture or technology
I'm not sure you've understood the position of most moral realists. Why we should (say) support LGBTQ rights in 2021 is not that morality itself has evolved, which implies that it may have been morally permissible not to support such rights in 1921. It's that when society failed to respect such rights it was making a moral error.
To put it another way, is there a culture or level of technology at which it would have been permissible to ostracize and punish gay men and women? To enslave as the spoils of war? To protect molesting priests over the children they victimized?
That's not to say that religion isn't a damper on moral progress, though I don't think it's fair to say that there is "no greater damper". Abolitionism often had a religious component, for example, while barriers to racial progress in the 20th century were maintained irrespective of religion. Or in terms that I've been thinking about recently, famous TERFs are often nonreligious.
Personally as an atheist-ish / lapsed Catholic, original sin is just about the only thing I've never actually doubted, Chesterton put it very well:
“Modern masters of science are much impressed with the need of beginning all inquiry with a fact. The ancient masters of religion were quite equally impressed with that necessity. They began with the fact of sin – a fact as practical as potatoes. Whether or no man could be washed in miraculous waters, there was no doubt at any rate that he wanted washing. But certain religious leaders in London, not mere materialists, have begun in our day not to deny the highly disputable water, but to deny the indisputable dirt. Certain new theologians dispute original sin, which is the only part of Christian theology which can really be proved. Some followers of the Reverend R. J. Campbell, in their almost too fastidious spirituality, admit divine sinlessness, which they cannot see even in their dreams. But they essentially deny human sin, which they can see in the street. The strongest saints and the strongest sceptics alike took positive evil as the starting-point of their argument. If it be true (as it certainly is) that a man can feel exquisite happiness in skinning a cat, then the religious philospher can only draw one of two deductions. He must either deny the existence of God, as all atheists do; or must deny the present union between God and man, as all Christians do. The new theologians seem to think it a highly rationalistic solution to deny the cat.”