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Ask HN: Do you think we, as adults, can become native in another language?
2 points by durub on Nov 30, 2021 | hide | past | favorite | 12 comments
When I think about it, the main difference between a native speaker and a fluent speaker is how much time they spent using it. A native speaker breathes the language, while the fluent one struggles because they use it rarely.

When I program, for instance, I'm not using English or Brazilian Portuguese (my native language). I'm using, in my head, a language my mind made up for me, with understanding of the abstract CS concepts. My mind translates the syntax I'm reading to this internal language, and translates this internal language to syntax I'm writing or reading. That's why I feel people have a difficult time going from imperative programming <-> functional programming, because your internal language must evolve and change to get used to these new concepts, and that takes time. It's not just syntax.

With this out of the way, I don't know the current scientific view on it, but I think that the biggest challenge for adults learning a new language is not a technical one. It's an emotional one.

Adults don't think like children. They are afraid to explore and make mistakes, because they think will be judged by others. As we grow, we tend to shake off our child behaviors, and become closed in our bubble and "the box" we created for ourselves, which becomes our reality and our world. And this world says that no, you can't become a native speaker in another language after you grow up. Then, you use your native language as a crutch instead of living this new language you are learning. You try to translate words, you try to map the concepts from your culture to this language (language and culture seems to be so intertwined -- what is "idiomatic Rust", after all?). You want to communicate the way you communicate in your native language, and it frustrates us so much when we can't. A child is not having any of it. He or she is just playing, enjoying the process, and learning day after day.

Right now, my co-founder and I are preparing for a YC interview and it's funny trying to explain, in English, concepts that we have been explaining in Portuguese for years. We don't throw away all our existing knowledge. We try to map our current vision, in Portuguese, to English. Sometimes it works ok, but sometimes the message doesn't get across.

I studied Japanese for a few years using Anki and WaniKani, and the results were amazing. When I wrote Japanese, people didn't believe I was studying for only months and could write what I wrote. However, I didn't do anything special. What I did, or rather, what I didn't do, was try to translate English or Portuguese into Japanese. I used Japanese. With the concepts the Japanese language gives us. We could say... idiomatic Japanese. But, when it came to speaking... oh boy, was I a mess. So afraid to say something wrong, that I couldn't even speak at all! And as Portuguese has all the phonetic sounds the Japanese language uses, my pronunciation was very good. Sorry for the native English speakers out there learning Japanese, you got the short end of the stick, but hey -- at least your countries are rich!

When it comes to English, my reading and writing ability is very good, but when I try to speak, what trips me up sometimes is pronunciation. My mind wants to say something, but when I try to use the word I'm going for, I realize I have no idea on how to say it. And then, paralyzed by my inability to do what I wanted, I become a deer in the headlights. An emotional problem, not a technical one, because I could just use another word. To improve this, I'm thinking about practicing shadowing daily.

To sum it up:

1) Do you think we can become native in another language after we grow up? Do you not? Why?

2) Does someone have tips on how to improve pronunciation? It's not that bad, it's just a word here or there, but I do have a small accent which I'd like to shrink even more. Maybe even learn how to speak in a British accent... you folks like that, right? I reckon it's rather charming. :)




I think that you can if you pay attention to detail.

Two quick examples, that I've noticed over the years.

Most non-native speakers pronounce the Italian ciao as "chow". But I noticed that a woman in Capri pronounced it as "chah oh". Not as separated phonemes, but as a smooth, quick transition from one to the next.

Similarly, most non-native speakers pronounce the French oui as "we". Instead, it is pronounced as "oo ee" - again, a smooth, quick transition from one phoneme to the next.

(I'm compelled to confess that I only speak English. But I have some understanding of Romance languages (and took a few years of French, decades ago). And, like many other programmers, linguistics in general is an interest of mine.)


Cool points, coolgeek and ogwh. Totally agree on paying attention to detail. I think that we go too far from understanding the fundamentals, and that cripples us.

Being there is the first step. If you aren't "there", paying attention, everything is way, way harder.

If you don't focus on what your tongue, mouth and the air is doing, how are you going to learn to pronounce better? We just try a bunch of things and see what sticks -- not very efficient.

Thanks for the comments, they made me reflect a lot.


I speak some French but no where near fluent. Native English.

I pronounce "oui" not as "we" but as you describe. The sound starts at the back of the tongue towards the throat and barely involves the lips, unlike "we" which starts with the lips.

Just an anecdote you might find interesting for whatever reason.


What a great point! Regarding the internal language & how it is translated into a language just for you in your mind & then exported as a different language, I've never though about it that way. I do believe it is possible if you are constantly surrounded by this new language & have that support & encouragement, especially when you make mistake. Thanks for sharing & good luck :)


Thanks, serverlessmom! Knowing that posting this was worthwhile for someone else made my day!

I "discovered" this some a few weeks ago while watching my co-founder sell very well. Afterwards, we were discussing it and I said, "man, you should see my brain when I'm programming, it's kind of amazing!" and then it dawned on me what was happening. A mixture of a visual language, with elements from both English and Brazilian Portuguese, and the abstract CS concepts.

When he sells, I'm sure he has his own internal language to do it. He doesn't think about objections, how to answer a specific question, etc. anymore. He just does it. It's kind of fascinating, and the universe is fascinating too. Learning every day!

I'm the one who has to thank you for sharing -- good luck too!


I would recommend the book Fluent Forever for getting started with a language.

1) I think you can reach a really high level, IMO true fluency comes from being able to understand the cultural references and for a lack of a better word memes used in a languages culture

2) I used 'shadowing' to greatly improve my French accent, got lots of compliments from native French speakers on it. It helped alot


Thanks, devKnight! I'll take a look at the book.

I totally agree about (1), and glad to know your experience with shadowing was helpful. How did you do it?


Shadowing is rather simple but highly effective. The way i did it at least, involved ripping the audio from tv shows in French. And listening to them on my phone as i would music, while trying to say the characters lines with the same tonality, pronunciation etc etc.

The objective is to try and be as close as possible to the recording. You would use the same recording/s over and over again. To try and hit all the right notes when it comes to expressions and all that. This is a sort of dry run of having fluid conversations.

Do this, everyday for an amount of time that works for you say 20 minutes or so while taking a walk, or while working. It really helps, and to me somehow connected the words i "knew" but my brain never detected when someone said it in a tv show, movie, podcast, let alone a youtube video or something informal like that. Shadowing made things click for me not just in pronunciation but in listening.

Its weird to explain it, as you kinda have to go through it. Its a minimal task with lots of benefits.


English pronunciation can be tricky: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ough_(orthography)


Haha! No wonder I have so many issues with:

  - though  
  - through  
  - rough  
  - cough  
  - thought
Thanks for the link, jjgreen. Very interesting, and certainly tricky.


I listened to a talk, though I may not be able to find it now, about our ability to hear elements of language. They played consonant sounds used in different languages and I could not distinguish between some of them them at all. Apparently if as a child you are not exposed to them by the age of about 4 you will never be able to.

It is driving me mad that I can't remember where I heard it. It would be great if someone knows.


This can be remedied with immediate feed back loops. There was an experiment where native Japanese speakers were taught to hear the difference between the English language R and L, which native Japanese speakers interpret as a sound that is sort of like an R, but kind of in the middle of the two.

Using an immediate feedback loop, where they heard the R and had to say if it was R or not, then L etc etc. They were able to pretty quickly grasp the difference.

After being able to notice this difference, it becomes easier to be able to pronounce these sounds that aren't found in one's native language.

This has been my experience when learning French(which has many sounds not used in English)




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