> And because men need the support. I suspect that a lot fewer men needed support in, say, 1950.
> Why do more men need support than did in 1950?
My answer is that when men were the vast majority consumers of higher education the system was built to support them.
This accords with what the social justice people would say, and I think they are right about that.
What they are wrong about is that men today should be denied support that other groups have today because men in the 1950s had support that other groups in the 1950s did not have.
Fair point. But my impression (only that) is that college in 1950 was much less hand-holding and "supportive" in general than it is in 2021. What there was, however, was almost certainly tuned for males (and in fact white males).
The question is fully answered. Men today are no less deserving of support than anyone else. They deserve the same support that other groups have today.
If you read the article you’ll see that men do not have the same support that other groups have, and proposals to provide that support are rejected on the basis of history rather than present need.
The desire ‘not to help white men’ is explicitly mentioned.
yea totally changed my mind, it does sound like things just aren't fair and the other "groups" have it better while the white man "deserves" it's fair share. Should we start a group or what? Which other group should we target first to get the "support" that we need?
Your response is dripping with sarcasm. Why do you have such hatred of white men in particular?
Also, why are you making this about race? The basis of the article was about how men are not getting the support they need. Why do you keep bringing “white men” into it?
All we’re taking about is recognizing that there are support services provided to women which are not provided to men, and there is no reason that men shouldn’t also need such services.
These are simply facts stated in the article.
What have you got against men that makes you want to deny them the same services as women?
Is it your opinion that white men, or men in general are somehow less deserving than young women? Or perhaps you think young men are inherently superior to women and therefore don’t have the same needs.
You are making a lot of huge jumps there, incorrectly, (except for the sarcasm, completely on point), and you asked like 5 questions.
Everyone should get support! More support! Everyone. By focusing on men, you are stating it is MORE challenging for men. It is not. Men should get more support, so should everyone, but if we are handing out bread, men should be last to receive, as our plate is the fullest. Do you really think men have it worse? I don't, being a guy is super great, much easier, and complaining about it just makes you seem like you lack perspective. Only you can tell us.
Jesus, zepto:
A) Thanks for such a detailed response
B) Screw you for such a detailed response, my thumbs gonna hurt
I write on my phone while watching travel videos on youtube and drinking, quoting is a pain, you deserve a better conversation, but I'll do my best,(thats a lie).
Sarcasm is great, its meant to get people riled up, you should try it, makes these comments more entertaining while also exaggerating another's end goal to show where those ideals lead.
Regarding focusing on men, (each paragraph to your points), I read the article, (like three times now because I feel like we read different things), its an opinion piece, I am trying to tell you I disagree with the summation that men, and white men, (the article brings up race!), are at a disadvantage and don't have the same LEVEL of support. They get different support, like being white and/or male, which for real, I will not go over again why its so much easier/better to be male and/or white. (Higher paying job while you get through school!)
At this point you aren't stating much, just trying interview me or something, so I'll assume all I want.
The article is providing context as pertains only to college. Disregards that white men have better access to college prep classes, paid more while they go to school, less chance of hardships, (not saying there are no hardships but again white male life = easier life) I really don't care if less men are going to college, I didn't graduate, not the end of the world, still had it easier. And no, not college age, but if you are, I swear life is better when older.
(oi i am only half way through)
Yea, "in terms of" thats the point that gets me, like caring about that, with all the other advantages you get from being white and/or male, you need to made sure no one else can ever have a different advantage, especially one thats easy to get around and still get to where you want.
Again, it's an opinion piece article, I am pointing out I think it's disagreeable because its so shortsighted.
Now you point out it's an age thing, I mean, sleep easy on that point, you are right. I haven't been that age for 13 years. Still live and work with people of all ages, share stories, listen to their lives, try to do my best to figure out whats going on, empathize... But if you want to say its a secretive world I would only understand if I were you, please help me get it, pretty sure these threads can go as long as we want.
I mean, you are debating heavily to prove that men have it worse, "in terms of" whatever, I can take that another step and just say you are complaining. Could go further with sarcasm and take if further but you pointed out you are not a fan.
I get your argument, but I am pointing out that while you are saying "same" you literally mean men should have access to support that is reserved for different people that have different hardships, in order to try to make the playing field more level. You, (not saying you personally, but in case you go there), can't say we should have the same access to support in college while having much different obstacles in life.
And yea definitely not trying to contribute anything, button says "comment" or "reply", not contribute, you feel like my opinions are that lame or what?
And yea, tying in a lot of things, but all related and what your greater point of view may be.
I like you zepto, just trying to help with your perspective. Obviously, that was a lot to write from both of us.
> Sarcasm is great, its meant to get people riled up, you should try it, makes these comments more entertaining while also exaggerating another's end goal to show where those ideals lead.
You aren’t exaggerating another’s “end”. You don’t actually know what that is.
You are simply being dishonest in your representation.
> At this point you aren't stating much, just trying interview me or something, so I'll assume all I want.
Lying about another person’s position is just that.
> Disregards that white men have better access to college prep classes, paid more while they go to school, less chance of hardships,
Even if true historically or when you went to college.
This is certainly not true of every white man today..
Whilst it’s certainly true that statistically Black people are less likely to have resources like college prep classes, that is a function of money. There are more poor white people than there are poor black people, even if statistically if you have black skin you are more likely to be poor.
There are also large numbers of rich and middle class black people who live in nice neighborhoods and have all the supports you mention.
That’s why it’s racist to base your discriminatory policies on race rather than actual hardship.
If you want to argue that people who have fewer resources should receive supports that others don’t, I will agree with you.
If you want to argue that being white means you have access to college prep, I think you are delusional.
> I didn't graduate, not the end of the world, still had it easier. And no, not college age, but if you are, I swear life is better when older.
You may have had it easier in your day, but as the article explains things have changed.
> I mean, you are debating heavily to prove that men have it worse, "in terms of" whatever, I can take that another step and just say you are complaining.
> you are debating heavily to prove that men have it worse
The article indicates that they do, at college. I’m not ‘arguing that’, I’m referencing it.
If you are claiming that I’m making a more general claim, then you are just misrepresenting me - I.e. you are intentionally lying about what I am saying.
> Could go further with sarcasm and take if further but you pointed out you are not a fan.
I’m not a fan because you are being at best fooling and at worst dishonest.
> I get your argument,
The evidence is that you don’t.
> but I am pointing out that while you are saying "same" you literally mean men should have access to support that is reserved for different people that have different hardships, in order to try to make the playing field more level.
I’m not arguing that some general “playing field” should be more level.
I am arguing that men are just people, and there is no reason they should receive less support in their education.
> You, (not saying you personally, but in case you go there), can't say we should have the same access to support in college while having much different obstacles in life.
Your position continues to embody racism and sexism
It seems like you are saying that men today should receive a worse educational experience than other people because men in the past like you had more advantages in life.
The problem is that this hurts those men who are less advantaged deliberately on the basis of their sex.
If there are advantages men as a category receive later in life, then those need to be addressed, but it’s reprehensible to use that as a justification for harming people’s educational experience.
worse educational experience? thats dramatic as hell. You are just mad that can't steal support reserved for other folks.
You keep throwing around priveledge and advantage but I don't think you get it. Do women make less money than men, underrepresented in industries, way higher percentage of being victims of domestic abuse and sexual assault? But your argument, is always "some men", but we are talking about "in general". Huge difference between situational advantage and systematic disadvantage.
Calling me reprehensible, and you are all high and mighty about how mean sarcasm is hahaha. This whole thread, is you getting all bent out of shape because you think the white man isn't getting enough, just leave it at that. I hope one day you see how ridiculous that is.
Please make this your last comment thread on HN, this was painful to read. This type of discourse does much better on twitter or reddit, feel free to keep it there.
"you know what this old thread needs? some hacker news superiority" - you
You jumping in a old thread, and you expect me to believe it's because you want me to stop? sounds like to showed up late to the party and just sad everyone left, and you want me to jump back in to talk to you. How you doing?
My answer is that when men were the vast majority consumers of higher education the system was built to support them.
This accords with what the social justice people would say, and I think they are right about that.
What they are wrong about is that men today should be denied support that other groups have today because men in the 1950s had support that other groups in the 1950s did not have.