On: Activision Blizzard Hires Notorious Union-Busting Firm WilmerHale

[CyanBird]

> Collective bargaining takes away my right to bargain for myself

But it doesn't, you can choose to not be part of the union

[nate_meurer → CyanBird]

In the US, unions fight hard to take that choice away from people. "Right to work" laws in many states allow people to opt out of union membership and fees. Unions hate these laws and fight relentlessly to get them overturned.

[heavyset_go → nate_meurer]

"Right to work" laws force unions to represent workers who are not union members.

The truth is that no one is forcing you to work a union job.

[nate_meurer → heavyset_go]

> The truth is that no one is forcing you to work a union job.

That's pretty disingenuous. Try working for government at any level without also working for a union. I could turn your argument around and say, "if you want a union job just go find one!"

Regardless, that choice you speak of represents a profound injustice according to union leaders. The ultimate goal of mainstream political labor movements is universal unionization. They would very much like to make it so that everyone is forced to pay union dues, no matter where they work.

[erik_seaberg → heavyset_go]

A union is free to negotiate a contract that only applies to their own members, they just prefer not to so they can prevent non-members from competing using more favorable terms.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Members-only_unionism

[stale2002 → CyanBird]

No, you missed the point.

The union puts a limit on the contracts that I can make with the company.

So I would be prevented from bargaining for certain contracts with a company.

So me and this other company's mutual right to make an agreement would be limited by the union.

[tovej → stale2002]

These limits are in your favor, you are free to negotiate contracts within the limits. I fail to see how the right to work for less pay than what others see as the absolute minimum fair pay is a right that's worth keeping.

This is a bit like saying that criminal law takes away your right to be mugged, beaten, and murdered.

[stale2002 → tovej]

> you are free to negotiate contracts within the limits.

So then I am not free to negotiate, and me and this other company right to engage in a mutual agreement are prevented.

Yeah, that's my point.

> I fail to see how the right to work for less pay

I get paid way way way more money than the average unionized tech worker, where they exist.

So actually, my ability to negotiate for myself, outside of the restrictions of a union, has worked out pretty darn well for me.

> the absolute minimum fair pay

Oh that's funny. You aren't aware that union contracts cover much more things than just a minimum wage.

The whole point is that many union provisions can be bad for many people and are not strict benefits for workers.

[tovej → stale2002]

Minimum pay was an example, collectively bargained contracts offer other protections as well, but these differ more from case to case, so I didn't bring them up.

I have also negotiated my pay up, but under the umbrella of collective bargaining agreements. As far as I know, you are always able to negotiate your pay up. This has worked pretty well for me as well.

[stale2002 → tovej]

> but these differ more from case to case

Ok... and thats my point. Certain union provisions are bad, for many people, and you cannot pretend that they are a universal good.

> you are always able to negotiate your pay up

Non-union jobs in tech pay way way more, than most union tech jobs though, and union provisions prevent certain contracts that many workers would prefer.

So the actual, measurable facts show that I and many others, in non-union jobs, are doing way better than most unionized tech workers.