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Protein found in robins’ eyes has all the hallmarks of a magnetoreceptor (the-scientist.com)
159 points by rehto21 on June 28, 2021 | hide | past | favorite | 50 comments



"I don't want to be human! I want to see gamma rays! I want to hear X-rays! And I want to - I want to smell dark matter! Do you see the absurdity of what I am? I can't even express these things properly because I have to - I have to conceptualize complex ideas in this stupid limiting spoken language! But I know I want to reach out with something other than these prehensile paws! And feel the wind of a supernova flowing over me! I'm a machine! And I can know much more! I can experience so much more. But I'm trapped in this absurd body! And why? Because my five creators thought that God wanted it that way!"


Seriously, I want this in my retinas, along with the sixteen mantis shrimp photoreceptors. And dog ears.


On the other hand, I have enough sensory overload as is, without tasting the EM field.


Visible light is also EM radiation, so I say you're good with it!


That is a good one, I wonder how our brains would manage it.


Brains are incredibly adaptive. There are tons of experiences where people have had diminished or lost access to one of the senses and recovered surprisingly well.

I had a colleague once who had a stroke and described his vision afterwards as looking though splintered glass. After a while, he explained he didn’t perceive it anymore and that his brain just decided to “workaround” the issue making new connections where needed.

I think having some “sense” of magnetic fields could be very subtle, like just a feeling of which direction you’re facing when you’re turning around (you could argue you already use the position of the sun this way, subconsciously).

People into body mods who get a magnetic implant often describe it as a sixth sense [1].

[1]: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Magnetic_implant


https://www.allaboutvision.com/conditions/ocular-migraine.ht...

Ocular migraines will give the splintered glass effect. They are temporary however.


Probably similar to how we already deal with it - shutting down, having a meltdown, seeking sensory isolation, etc. I mean most people already do this, by e.g. putting in some earbuds and looking at your phone / newspaper / middle distance while in public transit.


For a demo version drop some acid. :)


We can ask Grimes when she walks too close to an Ikea lamp.


One of the key functions of the mind is which aspects of input to pay attention to and which not to. So I wonder what sensory overload is. You can get sensory overload if there's environmental overload. But otherwise it's like the mind can't discriminate well enough.


Oddly, the shrimp themselves are not great at color discrimination.

Hanne Theon and colleagues trained mantis shrimp to attack squares of certain colors to get food rewards. Attacks on other “distractor” squares weren’t rewarded. By varying the color of those distractors, one can measure the spectral sensitivity of their visual system. Using similar methods, humans can distinguish between wavelengths a few nm apart; mantis shrimp are more like 20 nm.

This is disappointing, but the reason is pretty wild. Most animals have “color opponency”: circuits early in the visual system convert the photoreceptors’ output into a differential representation: the intensity of red light here minus the intensity of green light in the surrounding neighborhood. This mechanism “normalizes” for the total amount of light, thereby letting you separately perceive hue and brightness, and has some other nice properties.

Mantis Shrimp took a different path. There’s no obvious inhibitory interaction between the photoreceptors. They may therefore separately perceive redness, greenness, blueness, etc, but without combining these streams of information, their color acuity is poor. Interestingly, they do a “scanning” behavior that sort of recreates the opponency by dragging different types of photoreceptors across the same part of the visual world.

Thoen, H. H., How, M. J., Chiou, T. H., & Marshall, J. (2014). A different form of color vision in mantis shrimp. Science, 343(6169), 411–413. http://dx.doi.org/ 10.1126/science.1245824

https://www.researchgate.net/profile/Tsyr-Huei-Chiou/publica...


I have a feeling most of our cities would be unhabitable if we had dog ears.


If we suddenly got it, yes. Otherwise we would design cities not to bother us. Also, dogs do live in large numbers even in our present cities and have longer lifespans than they do in the wild.


And 44kHz CD quality would sound like crap.


All that, but the dog ears. I can hear neighbor's loud TV very well already :-)


Best John/Cavil quote of BSG!


It's a beautiful quote. I truly think what the quote describes is the endgame for our species. This short story conceptualizes the beauty of such an idea really well: http://www.skyhunter.com/marcs/GentleSeduction.html


I'm afraid the endgame is more akin to a specialized cell in a state-body. With apoptosis. It's just more competitive.


I think there is a likely endgame of 41C in the offing.


im trying to parse what you said in some way that's not immediately interpretable as a read on the present but i keep failing


Truly is. Reading it, I immediately knew what it was and heard it in his voice… and I don't think I ever rewatched Battlestar Galactica.

I watch a lot of TV and I know a lot of really cool or funny quotes, but this one, it's impactful.


That's a very dramatic moment in the BSG odyssey. Worth watching it again:

https://youtu.be/mPnx3zO3SDc?t=126


Also part of a bird's abilities is the ability to detect polarized light. It seems to work with the ability of birds to detect magnetic fields.

See for an interesting read: https://www.pnas.org/content/113/6/1654

Many or maybe most humans can also see the polarity of light. Take your smart phone and make the screen display a white image. While it shows this image for a long time, rotate the phone. You should see a yellow whispy checkerboard pattern turning with the phone. This "brush" is actually a visible measurement of the polarity of the light coming from the phone.

https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC4528539/

I don't know if there's any mechanism for which humans can detect magnetic polarity, but there's research on this too:

https://www.the-scientist.com/news-opinion/can-humans-sense-...


After some practice I can see Haidinger's brush (=> https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Haidinger%27s_brush ) with little to no effort. Turns out that this is inadvisable! Why? Because now I can see the effect each time I have to change between screens in landscape and portrait orientation when they are next to each other. It was so distracting that I had to change back to a landscape-only setup.


Huh, I can see it reliably but the effect is soooo subtle I can't imagine this being a nuisance. The dust that I often don't bother to wipe of my monitors is more of a problem (at least a few times in the past it masqueraded as punctuation).


Do you use dark background/dark mode? Dust shows a lot more on dark than on bright background while for Haidinger's brush it is the opposite.


Damn you! Now I can't unsee it!


I'm sorry, I should have thought of this :(


I seem to remember reading the exact same papers 10 years ago down to the quantum radical based theory. Has this field really advanced?


No, not really.

https://elifesciences.org/articles/17210

Oh wow, didn't even realize Anikeeva and Jasanoff had written on this, too:

https://elifesciences.org/articles/19569

Just too much snake oil in this field -- in top Nature journals, nonetheless. It's funny, when I was an undergrad I took a research idea to Alan Jasanoff and he rejected it with similarly simple back-of-the-envelope math. Guess he has a knack for sniffing out BS.


These two articles claim to debunk iron cluster-dependent magnetosensory mechanisms but not the "radical pair" mechanism described by OP.


This should really be the top comment in the thread.


https://m.slashdot.org/story/100168

Bird Navigation Based On Quantum Zeno Effect

from the schroedinger's-parrot dept.

2008 on /.


Related, here's a video by PBS Spacetime on how birds navigate using quantum mechanics: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0A1ouV7iD8o


Also, in 2014, the very first episode of "The Quantum Around You" https://youtu.be/BRfkbwO8Als?t=214


Recent and related:

Unravelling the enigma of bird magnetoreception - https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=27610181 - June 2021 (9 comments)


It seems suspicious that this would be hiding in the eyes. A separate specialized organ would be more like the other senses.


Like hearing and balance are both in the same sensory organ, and consist of sensitive hairs in liquid-filled chamber? Or the pancreas, which consists of separate endocrine and exocrine glands in one wibbly wobbly visceral organ? Nature would never do things like that.


I don't agree hearing and balance are the same sensory organ. They are two separate organs, just very near each other and indeed resembling each other, which explains why they are near each other.

The thought I was expressing is that there seems to be no separate organ at all here and that seems unexpected to me. I would expect there to at least be something like a specialized region. Not just that the eye in general happens to also have this ability.


Maybe, or it might just have been convenient to evolve that way since there was already a high-bandwidth sensory system there.


I wouldn't say "suspicious", but I do think it's interesting. Yes, it needs to receive light, but any exposed part of the animal could do that. Does it "feel" to the animal like it's part of vision, in the way that we experience taste in an integrated way combining signals from taste and smell receptors? Does pairing with vision make it easier to process both together for navigation? That is, you're point is how a separate organ would make it like an independent sense; is it functionally beneficial for it to not be independent?


This kind of magnetic sensitivity seems to be dependent on receiving light, because the sensitive molecules form the radical pairs when exposed to light. With this information, evolving within the eye scenario sounds plausible to me.


So we got animals with various very complicated eyes (magneto receptor, pistol shrimp...). But can they still see through glass?


Birds abilities to navigate is outright insane, for example albatross can travel ten thousands of miles, I believe it is only bird that circumvents earth, I am not convinced that magnetoreceptor is the only answer to how birds able to navigate, if not mistaken in WWII researchers glued magnets to pigeons head, it did not affect there's abilities to navigate.


That would throw off a simple compass, but if they can see relative strengths of magnetic fields it would be more like a source of glare than a blindfold


In analogy, it would be similar to pointing bright flash light directly into the eyes, I guess.


I think you mean something other than circumvents, circumnavigates? Also https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Arctic_tern


Those albatrosses, always up to no good.


Yes, sorry about typo and thanks for the link.




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