I'm not sure whether everything is right there regarding that Librem 5 unit - 40% of the battery eaten in 3 hours with screen off is way faster than what I see here on my phones (disclaimer: I work for Purism). None of my phones also get as hot as described, so that may be related. I'd be interested in seeing power consumption data (`tail -n+0 /sys/class/power_supply/*/uevent`) and thermal data (`gthcli`) in various idle states from that unit. I haven't done any exact battery tests recently, but from my experience I can easily reach screen off time of more than 10-15 hours and screen on time of 5-6 hours depending on what stays on, and the phone usually stays cool unless I leave it in bed under a blanket at which point it can get pretty hot after a few hours (but still not burning to touch).
Thanks for the tip! I would love to be able to get 10-15 hour screen-off time on my Librem 5.
With regards to thermals, my writing may have been a bit unclear. The thermal issue was definitely only during my one trip, when it was in the car with me and had been charging + running for a couple hours of driving. There was sunlight but it wasn't in direct sunlight. I suspect charging + running (music) + ambient heat was part of the problem, but I've never had a phone be that hot even on a long drive like that. I've been fairly careful otherwise to not place it in direct sunlight, mostly because I'm afraid the heat will damage the battery in some way.
As for the battery, I'll have to do some digging there, although I can't get to that today. Those are great tips to look into though, thanks for posting them. I'll note that I haven't tested the latest kernel, so if any patches have gone into the Librem 5 regarding power in the last three weeks, I probably wasn't able to quantify that!
I don't think that this alone can explain the difference we're seeing, but one thing that comes to my mind is the power consumption of the WiFi module. If you're in position to be able to use 2.4GHz networks instead of 5GHz ones, that should bring power consumption down a bit. One more thing to try may also be WiFi power saving - it's not enabled by default yet since our testing has shown that it can cause troubles and significantly limit the bandwidth with some access points, but you may want to try checking if you're lucky enough to be able to use it already: `sudo iw dev wlan0 set power_save on`
Meta: with JavaScript disabled (or if it fails to load), your <code> elements are very badly styled because of the highlighter-rouge class on them, which per monokai.css makes them `display: block` (and other related styles designed only for blocks of code, not inline code). When the JavaScript runs, the rouge highlighting is undone by https://thatgeoguy.ca/js/prettifyCode.js, which clobbers the class attribute, seemingly by accident (the comment says it’s adding, but it’s replacing instead) or incomplete modification… thereby apparently inadvertently fixing the problem!
The ideal solution is probably either removing the rouge highlighter from inline code elements, or shuffling the only-for-blocks .highlighter-rouge styles in monokai.css to a new rule div.highlighter-rouge, since they’re not suitable for inline code elements.
(I’m mentioning this here because the author is actively involved in the thread and thus there’s a reasonable chance of it being fixed.)
I'm not a web developer by trade, so this is good advice and something I never looked into. Thanks for the heads up, I'll have to block Javascript and see if I can get it working. I might be able to remove the prettify stuff entirely.
The funny thing there is that prettifyCode.js looks to be attempting to set the scene for a client-side highlighter, but no such highlighter is then used. And you’ve already got server-side highlighting happening.
Yeah, this is very likely an artefact of switching my blog from Django to Jekyll years ago, and then adopting rouge years after that. I definitely would like to use less JS on my website, and like you said, I already have server-side highlighting.
> I’m not testing voice, SMS, or MMS here. As far as I’ve heard from other sources, calls and SMS seem to be in working order. MMSd has (from what I’ve gathered, at least) been a large focus for many projects in the last six months. I try my best not to use MMS whenever possible, so I’m certainly a poor source of information if that’s a blocker for you to adopt one of these two devices.
In case anyone is curious about the state of Calls/MMS/SMS on the Pinephone/Librem 5 (keep in mind this is very Phosh/SXMO centric, so YMMV for KDE/Ubuntu Touch):
- Calls work fine, but (on the Phosh stack) there is no way to get a notification about getting a voicemail. There is some work on getting Visual Voicemail to work (T-Mobile USA isn't a problem, but other's may require some tinkering with to figure out).
- SMS works fine on the Phosh stack (and most distros to my knowledge)
- MMS is supported from a backend perspective (through mmsd-tng, which I assume the author is referring to), but, to my knowledge, no chat application (i.e. Chatty on Phosh, KDE, SXMO, etc) supports it. There has been work to get the Phosh stack (i.e. Chatty) to support MMS, and I am hoping that can be completed sooner than later (the remaining work for chatty is UI integration). I think there is work to also get front end support for MMS into SXMO (at least the person who is working on it has bugged me a few times to ask how to integrate with mmsd-tng), and to my knowledge, there is no work on it in KDE.
> ... this is all somewhat biased since if this was 2009 both of these phones would seem as if they’re the future. On the other hand it isn’t 2009 anymore, and these phones are here today.
This is interesting and something I hadn't thought about. I have a PinePhone that I've been hacking around on for the past few months. If I had this phone a decade ago I would have been over the moon. I'd really like to make it my daily driver, but I simply can't because of the experience I'm now accustomed to on modern smartphones. My future of being a happy hacker with a fully open-source Linux smartphone in my pocket still seems a few years away, but the future is bright.
Phones in 2009 worked though. You could buy an iPhone or Android and be confident that you could send a text, or make a phone call, or set an alarm and rely on it to wake you up in the morning.
I wouldn't trust my PinePhone to do any of that, I don't even trust it to reliably boot. I have a feeling mobile is a moving target that FOSS won't ever be able to catch up with. I think we enjoy quality FOSS desktop hardware because the platform is so stable.
Same here. Ive tried a few different pinephone OSes and it's just not quite there.
For my android phone, i use password manager, 2fa, camera, reddit, a few random time killer games/apps (specifics dont matter as long as I can kill time). My on-call pager doenst NEED an app, since they will text/call me. But I have poor reception in my house so I need wifi calling (not available on pinephone).
All the bitwarden apps Ive found are either hardcoded to use the official bitwarden (cant change to my personal server), or are terribly slow webapps. And then auto complete isn't an option.
I could absolutely make most of these things work, but inevitably i need to carry my other phone with me because of the camera. Which feels like the real deal breaker for me. The pinephone camera is great for documenting things and passing information, but its not really great for capturing memories and moments. My bitwarden experience is disappointing in the moment, but grainy, bad photos are disappointing in perpetuity.
Get me a quality camera and I would begrudgingly use a worse reddit app or the mobile site. But until then, I'm stuck.
I'm unsure what you mean by this. Android is based on Linux. The web runs on Linux. Hell, the thermostat in your house probably runs Linux. I've been using Linux on my laptop I do all my professional work on for many years. I'm responding to your comment right now on that Linux laptop.
Linux is an implementation detail on Android, nothing that makes Linux is part of the stable APIs contract, in a couple of years ART will be running on Zirkon and only OEMs and people that root their phones will notice.
These phones aren't widely available - just look at several of the comments in this story comment.
At the risk of putting words in the OPs post, such comments usually refer to linux on the desktop or other general purpose computing devices (also like the phones being discussed here), not server, embedded or other non-general purpose computing uses.
To be fair, hardware vendors are forking the kernel, not Android (as much). The AOSP is very close to mainline Linux, with some config knobs turned differently.
Android is based on Linux but isn't what anyone means when they talk about Linux. Plenty of stuff runs on Linux but the comment you're replying to mentioned usability specifically. Do you think Linux's general usability (i.e., not for you specifically, but for the average computer user) is on par with other OSes?
Replaced Windows 10 with Debian for my relatives, and they are quite happy. Problems with GNU/Linux occur when (1) you need to use a Windows-only app, or (2) you have incompatible hardware (typically designed for Windows).
I second that. My family runs on Debian/KDE and evrybody is happy. Now to be honest, 99% of their computing stuff (ie tiktok, instagram, youtube) is done with a tablet). But for the rest (occasioanl browsing, text editing,...), it works perfectly.
Except for one or two bugs (mainly, using kde with several user sessions sometimes fails and one grub update that failed (but my setup has multiple drives and partitions)), they can handle it themselves.
But there are some things Linux has that makes it much better imho :
- only security updates (I run Debian stable), so you're not constantly reminded of rebooting your computer
- you're not constantly pushed to install this or that
- you don't have notifications about useless stuff
- applications , while admittedly scarcer, don't install stuff all other the place (more notifications) and behave well
- when I update Debian I don't have to update my computer
- endless support for some hardware (got a scanner for 20 years now, doesn't work anymore on Windows 'cos the drivers don't exist anymore)
For me it leads to a much quieter work environment and that counts a lot.
But sure, it's less polished than Windows or IOS. But, well, while "being in control" was a political stance for me 20 years ago, now it just feel so much better.
Sometimes I compare my Linux to TV : it's much better when you can watch it without the commercials.
Anyways, I have to use Windows as I have a print-related disability. Windows has better support than MacOS and Linux for the certain type of print-related disability that I have. I also rely on screenreaders, and Ubuntu just does not work as nicely. So, I do a QEMU/KVM Windows 10 GPU passthrough, for using a screenreader, and it has no noticeable lag whatsoever. This likewise works quite seamlessly. It's basically like running Ubuntu and Windows together in harmony, but with Ubuntu as the base OS. A good guide (that also shows the thought process with setup) is here: https://pastebin.com/5tuvWTMH
A year ago with work-from-home, my father who's near retirement began using LinuxMint on an old laptop for his work, and other than initial unfamiliarity with a few programs, no problems. He's not at all a geek, nor very adept at computers, so I'm so glad he's using an OS that just works for his straightforward web and word-processing needs.
>Do you think Linux's general usability (i.e., not for you specifically, but for the average computer user) is on par with other OSes?
Yes. It is orders of magnitude more usable than Windows 10 at least, which is awful. I haven't used OSX in a few years, but there were always some annoyances about maximizing windows, having to jump through hoops to install programs from the internet, or having to restart after updates.
I would very much like to see a user study of new computer users trying out Ubuntu, Windows 10, and Mac OS for the first time.
> not for you specifically, but for the average computer user
This is shifting the goalposts. Desktop Linux is perfectly usable for me, not for my wife. I'm interested in a more Linux-like phone for me; I'm not looking to see if it would be better than an iPhone SE for my wife.
I'm looking forward to someday trying a Librem 5 but it's been 4 years since I backed the campaign and now I've been told that it will be at least October before mine ships. If anyone else is interested in the state of the art of Linux phones it looks like PinePhone is your only choice right now.
For comparison Bunnie's Precursor [i] (FPGA RISC-V mobile) is slated for ~2yrs of development, and he's someone who has the connections and know-how to trim the delivery schedule as much as possible.
If based in Europe I think the best option is Fairphone. I'm not sure whether its fully open hardware but at least to a large degree it is. In addition ethical sourcing of materials, easy no-tool replacement of most parts, and you can install Ubuntu, Sailfish, etc.
It's not - it's pretty much a regular unlocked Android phone in this regard, which is why it was stuck on old Android version for a while. Other OSes work there by using Android compatibility layers. It is a very interesting and noteworthy project because of other reasons that you already mentioned, but FLOSS-friendliness of its components isn't one of them (which isn't surprising, as this requirement limits your available choices quite a lot; and so do the Fairphone's other requirements already).
> In fact, while I’ve been generally impressed with the pace of improvements from all over I think that there are still some critical areas where the phones fall short. For the Librem 5, the battery life and thermals are definitely this device’s Achilles heel. For the Pinephone, I think the weakness of some of the hardware is problematic and isn’t something that most people would want to put up with.
It seems like hardware is the big gap here. It must be tough to innovate on hardware with low-volume niche devices, creating a chicken and egg dilemma for adoption. Are there any realistic options for these two phones to have more regular/modern iterations of their hardware? Perhaps a partnership with some existing manufacturer that is struggling for relevance in the phone space like LG or Motorola?
>Perhaps a partnership with some existing manufacturer that is struggling for relevance in the phone space like LG or Motorola?
This is kinda what Jolla did with the Sailfish X program - they periodically choose one of the mid-range Sony Xperia devices that are part of the Sony open device program, then port Sailfish OS (a pretty nice mobile Linux distro) on it and sell licenses to people.
It's not a partnership per se, rather a symbiosis, but has been working like this for years. Also nice that they support the devices long after official support for the original Android firmware has ended. :)
Author here: a lot of the FOSS stack can run on Android-based phones today!
I think the hardware is a limiting factor, but part of what makes these devices unique (as other commenters have pointed out) is that they can run with minimal proprietary blobs. I don't believe either phone is at "no blobs" yet, since even Purism had to have blobs for the Baseband and Wifi (I think, or maybe it was just Wifi?). Nevertheless, Ubuntu Touch does work on Android devices today, and I think even PostmarketOS has some adoption on OnePlus 6/6T.
Overall though, I'd say that power isn't really the big thing. I think existing software has shown that you really don't need a lot of compute to be able to run apps smoothly on these phones (Morph browser, many GTK apps on the Librem 5). Battery life remains a concern with these devices, but that seems to improve bit by bit over time (at least, the Pinephone does. Not sure what is up with my Librem).
I think getting a partnership would be doubly tricky though, because a lot of the market just doesn't want these phones to begin with, and struggling companies are unlikely to attempt to explore mobile Linux unless they know it'll turn their ship around. Maybe if they get banned from using Android somehow (much like Huawei was), but even then I can't say I'm sure that Linux is appealing for companies in that scenario.
> even Purism had to have blobs for the Baseband and Wifi (I think, or maybe it was just Wifi?)
Baseband and Wifi both run blobs, but not on the main CPU and not from the userspace. As a result, the phone is the only one recommended by the FSF: https://www.fsf.org/givingguide/v11/.
Stuff like the above-mentioned N900 could reach weeks of uptime without any suspend-to-RAM (and at least a couple days with wifi on). There is something definitely wrong here.
All these blobs can get easily updated/replaced by the user without having to hack the hardware in any way. For some reason there's a lot of FUD going on around that issue.
How is it FUD? Yeah open-source drivers will get updated. The binary blob firmware of a component? Not really. If you replace it, it will still has the old/potentially buggy firmware.
The FUD is about not being able to reflash and update the blobs just because they're not stored in the rootfs. It won't get done as part of regular system updates because they're non-free, but you're able to do it on your own pretty easily.
Don't discount software optimization. For example, Apple has extensive software optimization that works hand in hand with their hardware optimizations to deliver battery life and control thermals. I'm sure Google does similar things for Android too.
There is more to having a successful mobile device than just dropping a formerly optimized for desktop OS on them.
Plus you are focused on the wrong part of the stack. Pine and Librem are acceptable device manufacturers. They just need better SoCs / better software support for existing SoCs. Think Samsung Exynos, Rockchip, Mediatek.
Pine64 is using Rockchip SoCs in other products. In the past they have done SBCs with a SoC before putting it in more challenging designs like the tablet and phone, maybe there will be a RK3566 phone at some point.
The RK3566-based Quartz64 boards currently getting released have been explicitly stated as the dev-platform for any upcoming devices. So barring something very unforeseen, I would expect a next-gen RK3566 pinephone being announced within a couple of years and released within 2-4y or so.
Keep in mind Pinephone is (at least current gen) primarily intended as a dev device with a long lifecycle.
It's too small a market for even mid-sized manufacturers to care about. Even if they did, the major SoC vendors aren't open enough currently (the major limiting factor) to make this viable. So for the time being, we're limited to small device runs that iterate infrequently based on low-end and often older SoCs.
> Perhaps a partnership with some existing manufacturer that is struggling for relevance in the phone space like LG or Motorola?
Not sure about the Pinephone, but Purism explained that they were searching for hardware allowing 100% FLOSS. i.MX 8M Quad SoC worked for that: https://puri.sm/posts/breaking-ground/. No other mainstream manufacturer is interested in that.
Unless what's discussed in the Anbox section of the article (how to run apps that people came to depend on, such as WhatsApp/Telegram/Signal) is properly addressed, most people wouldn't even consider one of those phones.
We should remember that the late Blackberry phones did have Android app compatibility and still failed. Librem and PinePhone are not even at the starting point yet, which is unfortunate.
Signal on the Librem 5/PinePhone is already usable through one client (Axolotl), with possibly more clients on the way – the Signal devs still don’t publicly endorse third-party clients, but they have softened their stance and even quietly helped some other projects. So, a working Anbox isn’t seen as a must-have for Signal.
Good to hear. But I still use Venmo, Slack, Zoom, iNaturalist, and my bank app. Along with plenty of open source android apps that I will pretend can be automagically ported or reimplemented.
Don't expect your bank app and other common non-FOSS apps to ever work on Anbox. The problem is that more and more Android apps are requiring the device to pass SafetyNet. Not only will Anbox not pass SafetyNet, but even de-Googled Android ROMs like LineageOS have generally lost this war.
Generally supporters of FOSS phones who have to run an Android bank app or their country’s official ID app which is SafetyNet and Play Services-dependent, are encouraged to simply get a cheap Android phone for those limited purposes. Not to expect the PinePhone or Librem to run such apps.
My bank app works on my degoogled android, and I live in the US so I think I am far from needing an ID software. I don't even have a "real" physical state ID yet haha.
This is the same "Well linux doesn't run my program" argument windows users make about switching to linux. The appeal isn't that it's a platform that I can twist into Android it's that it's Linux and it does things the right way.
Blackberry didn't have an amazing OS to hold it up. That's why it failed
People who depend on e.g. WhatsApp to communicate with friends and family simply won't switch to a phone that doesn't run WhatsApp.
Those messaging apps (or apps like Uber/Lyft) in particular have network effect (i.e. the decision is not solely your own) and a new entrant for the phone hardware has to support those apps (hence the Blackberry's decision to be Android compatible) or they are dead on arrival.
I don't think there are many apps that people depend on on Windows or Mac in the same way people depend on WhatsApp or Uber on their phone.
Sure, people in certain occupations may need to use Windows/Mac-only apps, but there's plenty of people who don't use them.
I run Linux Mint on my laptop (and have for years) because there's no Windows or Mac apps I personally want to run. This is thanks largely to (a) webapps (e.g. Google Docs), and (b) cross platform dev tools that made e.g. VSCode, Brave, etc possible (which doesn't exist for phones outside Android/iOS), and (c) me not being a gamer.
I find it unsettling that people make purchase recommendations solely based on the merit of the phones given purism contributed more patches to the Linux phone ecosystem.
I don't think that's necessarily correct. You can't even order a Librem 5 if you want it right now because of silicon shortages. You can purchase a Pinephone. Ignoring that, the price differential is insane (and I doubt people who would consider the Librem 5 USA are really saying "yes" or "no" based solely on the merit of the phone).
I think it's one thing to recognize that Purism is providing patches, but that doesn't translate to a device people can and want to purchase.
The battery life mentioned in the post is surprisingly low (see my other comment above), but you're misrepresenting it quite drastically. The post talks about the battery being at 60% after 3 hours of screen-off idling, not "3 hours of screen-off battery life".
I am not a heavy user - so not much screen time - and my phone spends 8 hours a work day in flight mode which surely helps. I charge my phone once every 6-7 days.
I know the articles phones are not mainstream. I would like a mobile OS OS :-P and as a light user I am willing to make a few concessions.
To add to that, it's mostly concerning because if Purism wouldn't be funding the development, who would? I'm hoping they'll be able to recoup and keep up their investment.
This post inspired me to finally unbox the PinePhone Beta Edition I've had sitting on my desk for a couple months, thanks! Now just waiting for a microSD card to arrive, I didn't have any laying around sadly.
The article says: "As for encryption on the Pinephone, the only OS that currently makes it easy to enable is PostmarketOS". And this is false, as there is also an easy-to-use installer for Arch Linux ARM with full disk encryption: https://github.com/dreemurrs-embedded/archarm-mobile-fde-ins...
While I grant this is easier than some of the other options (e.g. encrypting data folder in Ubuntu Touch), I don't think this fit what I meant by "easy" (which included graphical steps, and didn't require anything separate from the phone itself during installation).
Nonetheless, I do appreciate the community forming around this. For a long time in 2020 it felt like encryption was going to be a "when we get to it" task, so it's good to see more things popping up.
Disclaimer: FWIW the closest I ever got to Arch proper was Manjaro, so I definitely didn't do an exhaustive search of every distro.
I know at least Mobian uses a version of the pmOS installer (and that is what I think the Librem 5 will be using for their installer too). But Mobian does have FDE from a graphical installer as an option.
I think I read somewhere that once a year Google does free PCB prints if the board designs are free/libre design. If that's true (source, anyone?) does anyone who reads board schematics know of neo900 did enough design to print the new boards and 3D print the spacer to upgrade old N900s?
Typing this response on a Gemini, from Planet Computers. Essentially, its a vanilla smartphone, with an updated version of the Psion Series 5 keyboard bolted on (designed by the same chap who did the original).
If you look online, you'll probably find a lot of cons, as I think many people who backed this on Indiegogo has unrealistic expectations for this device. For me, I can say that this has been the best "smartphone" I've ever had. There are numerous small things which could have been improved - but the biggest thing - the keyboard - is actually really good (and I speak as someone who prefers to use custom mechanical keyboards like the atreus with his laptop, so I am picky).
If you can make Android a comfy environment (termux, your programming languages of choice, neovim & syncthing), it becomes a usable mini laptop when necessary.
Have you attempted to run Linux on it? What’s the experience if so? I’m really, really compelled to get Gemini PDA or Cosmo Communicator but I’m concerned about hardware compatibility.
I haven't used this, but it's on my list of things to watch. I dearly miss my Droid 4 phone because of the physical keyboard, however it was always just too sluggish to put to real use.
Tangential question for HN: what is the absolute lowest-level access one can reasonably expect to get to an old Android phone?
I ask because I'm not clear on the architecture of smartphones, which makes it hard to spot opportunities for creatively hacking them. As I understand it, there are at least two OS-like layers: a "baseband" that IIUC is responsible for controlling the radio hardware, and an OS that sits atop to provide applications/display/touchscreen-controls/etc.
I'm aware of projects like PostmarketOS, but these seem to be a replacement for the OS. Is there any equivalent for the baseband? I have an old OnePlus One and would love to have access to some sort of low-level radio API that would let me generate/modulate/transmit/receive/etc radio signals.
That "firmware" which is being replaced by open equivalent is a GNU/Linux system prepared by Quectel running on the modem itself and providing services like AT command or audio routing daemons. The actual baseband-y stuff is done in Qualcomm's DSPs which stay as closed as ever.
Pinephone modem runs its own OS inside. So if you have a Pinephone, you run two Linux'es at the same time: normal OS and the one on the modem. The core of modem responsible for the actual connections to the towers is closed though AFAIK.
That appears to just be an updated version of the vendor's closed binaries for the modem. It doesn't seem to be open or possible to modify in any meaningful way.
Regarding the articles complaint about not being able to use Flatpak on Manjaro Plasma Mobile: You totally can, it works with Discover, it's just not enabled by default.
I figured it was something like this, but it was far less obvious than the `gnome-software-plugin-flatpak` package that kind of set everything up for me.
Aside from the generic documentation on Flathub I am not aware of any. That said, on recent Manjaro Plasma Mobile Betas it was simply enabled by default.
GTK and QT on the smartphone is just reseting history. Please don't use software that wad conceived for desktops with 2010 era mobile support.
Developers aren't using GUI toolkits anymore like it's the 90's. Flutter, Electron, React Native, embedded layout engines that ease portability abd productivity. That's where things are at right now.
> On the contrary, Gtk and libhandy have excellent usability
Show me a single app that uses transitions and fading in/out sidebars, and has swipe gesture integrations.
As long as this is not supported by concept (Gtk boxes will never allow this type of scene graph) I don't think Gtk can be called mobile-ready.
Mobile screen space is very limited, and as long as Gtk is static as a scene graph by nature, you'll have to do thousands of hacks to "somehow" fake it. The gsettings app on phosh is a damn dirty hack of hacks.
And with pure CSS, you would need literally less than 10 lines of layouting code.
I'm not saying electron is better, but Gtk as a layouting concept is heavily outdated. If you don't think so: read the phosh codebase. You'll start to cry after an hour, how devs persist to make this somehow work due to beliefs that Gtk is made for this. It isn't.
