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U.S. Government Wants to Double Prison Sentences for Hackers (readwriteweb.com)
81 points by bproper on June 20, 2011 | hide | past | favorite | 48 comments



I can tell you what happens if you call the FBI to report your site being hacked by criminal syndicates.

Nothing. The FBI has no interest at all in investigating these crimes.

Unless apparently it is from a group criticizing the government. As we see in the article, that's the real crime. Not hacking a site, but the motivation. If it's to steal and commit financial fraud, the government couldn't care less. But if it's because you want to out lies and crimes told by government, then you are going to prison for a long time.

Make no mistake. This is not about the hacking itself at all.


There was an article a few months ago that showed the FBI spends most of its resources going after copyright infringers. Maybe you could claim some of your intellectual property was stolen next time?


Really? So there's Homeland Security going after copyright infringement, now FBI. What's next? CIA? I've seen that in Europe they are already starting to use the Interpol for such things.

When did copyright infringement become one of the biggest crimes one could do? It certainly seems to be on the Government's top priority list, not far below terrorism.


Homeland Security doesn't "go after" copyright infringement.

DHS is a cobbled-together afterthought, the bureaucratic equivalent of Mr. Oogey-Boogey from Nightmare Before Christmas, a writhing collection of squiggley little agencies held together with stitched up burlap, created as a slapdash response to 9/11.

One of those agencies is ICE, the (small) organization originally chartered with transcontinental IP enforcement.

The part of our government that is supposed to enforce organized criminal infringement of IP is enforcing infringement of IP. It seems silly to get upset that they're doing so under the banner of "DHS". You'd rather it was DOJ? They'd be doing more than seizing domains.


It became the biggest crime because copyright control means control of what people can see, hear and talk about. There's a lot of money to be made in censorship and controlled conversations with consumers.


Because its easy to track and prosecute...

hacker breakins, difficult to track and prosecute hence FBI pretending to do there jobs by taking the low hanging fruit..


Not to mention, it's typically corporations with big pockets pushing for these sorts of investigations.


Can't edit parent post now, but here's an article with links to other articles about FBI priorities:

http://www.techdirt.com/articles/20100809/17262010563.shtml

Identity theft and missing persons don't pay the bills, I guess.


You would think that a politician would see that as a prime way to get votes. "The FBI cares more about you downloading a song off the internet then about your child being abducted. We need to get their priority straight. Vote for XYZ 2012"


Have you considered a political career?


The unfortunate truth of politics is that anybody that's qualified for the position doesn't want it.


And anyone who wants to be in power is usually the type of person you least want near it.


I don't think it's your intellectual property that they care about...


Child porn is another biggie.


When I spoke with state/fed computer forensics types once they said it was ~50% of their workload.


Why? That's absurd.


Not at all. Going after child porn is both popular and safe.

The feds like to go after (some) copyright infringement because politically connected industries want that.

The ideal crime, from the feds' perspective, is one that combines all three characteristics.


One guy I talked to said occasionally they might have an attorney wanting them to do some time-consuming, heroic forensics on, say, a CD duplicator to find out how many copies of something were made. His response was something like "This guy's got pictures of a little boy getting sodomized here we're not going to drop this to work on that." Apparently there are a lot of people trading that child porn.

These forensics guys seemed to know what they're doing and had a good perspective on their priorities.


In reality, the FBI spends more resources on anti-terrorism (per incident) than anything else.


That's not hard to do if you start classifying everything as terrorism.


It's probably the easiest way for agents to shore up their numbers for promotion.


Unless apparently it is from a group criticizing the government. As we see in the article, that's the real crime.

Read it again, or better yet read the linked Reuters article, which RWR just re-wrote and sexed-up. There is no causal connection made between the call for increased sentence maximums and criticism of the government. The only connection made is that the two things are mentioned in the same article.

The idea that you've come away with is not based in fact, but in poor reporting.


In the FBI's defence (and I'm loathe to go to bat for it), they have been actively targeting carders. It's by no means a comprehensive approach to security, but they are at least going after credit fraud.

Now, whether that's to protect consumers or creditors is a different matter...


There are some famous instances of hackers being locked up, e.g., Kevin Mitnick.

But are there any examples of hackers not being locked up long enough? Someone who gets out after 10 years but hadn't learned their lesson and really needed 20?


Unfortunately, the problem with your question is that it assumes that the purpose of prison is rehabilitation.


As an honest and simple question: what are the possible purposes of incarceration?


The classical purposes of punishment (as taught in my criminal law courses):

1. Specific deterrence. (deterring the individual from doing 'it' again)

2. General deterrence. (a signal to other potential criminals to 'not do it')

3. Rehabilitation / resocialisation. Giving the criminal a chance and circumstances to reconsider their way of life or state of mind, or be 'cured' from the mental illnesses or moral defects that are causing their actions.

4. Prevention. Getting people off the street.

5. Revenge for the victim.

6. Revenge for society - making the perpetrator fulfill their moral debt to society.

There are various schools in criminology, criminal psychology etc and depending on which one one subscribes to, some of the above are more important than others. An interesting (to me) development of the last years/decades is the emergency of neuropsychology, explaining people's behavior in terms of neural functioning and basically acknowledging that all actions come from the way our brains are wired. This will have huge implications in the moral aspects of punishment; it will basically nullify the concept of 'guilt' as there won't be a difference between someone who has an epileptic seizure and kicks somebody down the stairs in a spasm, killing him; and a psychopathic murderer who creeps up on a woman at night and cuts her throat. Both will come from 'neural defects', and it will require a serious redefinition of our legal concepts of 'guilt' to reconcile this state of affairs with society's more 'intuitive' concept of guilt.

Sorry for OT, it's one of my pet topics :)


A few come to mind (and I'm not saying I approve/disapprove of any of these):

    1. Rehabilitation
    2. Isolation (get them off the streets)
    3. Revenge
    4. Deterrence
Edit: is there a way to format a list on HN?


- Try

- bullets

+ and

* paragraphs (two newlines between each line).


The prison system in the US is a multi-billion dollar industry. More prisoners = more prisons = more jobs (guards, cleaning staff, psychologists, etc.).


It's also there as a 'scoreboard' for politicians who want to claim to be tough on crime.


The Mitnick incident was a good example of the government failing to understand new technology and completely overreacting to a sensationalised crime, resulting in Mitnick receiving punishment well in excess of what would be appropriate for his "crimes".

Giving the government power to double their capacity to overreact because of future failures to understand technology just seems like a Bad Idea.


I see a real danger of people using false flag attacks to get those they don't like in serious trouble.

They can for example use victim's computer to scan and DoS .mil domains and download a random sampling of copyrighted material from various torrents.


The danger is real. Also don't forget to download some child pornography [0]!

[0] http://www.usatoday.com/tech/news/2011-04-25-wifi-warning.ht...


This goes well with the government's position that violating your employer's acceptable use policy or a website's usage terms constitutes "hacking": http://volokh.com/2011/06/14/petition-for-rehearing-filed-in...


Did anyone else read the headline as "US Government Wants Double Precision Sentences for Hackers"?


if (prisoner.IncarcerationPeriodF == prison().SentenceF) prisoner.Release();

Floating point rounding errors could doom someone to a life sentence!


Why not just sentence everyone to death for any crime, no matter how small?


How could you suggest such a horrible thing? Just think of all the prison guards that would put out of work!


They could just transition to be ushers for the public executions events.


Be sure not to step on the bushes when getting your football...


I seem to recall a star trek episode about that...

[edit] Yup: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Justice_(Star_Trek:_The_Next_Ge...


because then everyone would be sentenced to death, and that is ridiculous.


Kind of like the ridiculous percentage of the US population currently in prison.


Hey, it's free labour.


And if they're hackers, then well, they're skilled free labor.


First there were witches, then there were terrorists then there were the hackers. But as every child says those who accuse are the ones who really are.


You sound like you were born in the 90s. It was believed that communists were the bogeyman for a while.




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